SUICIDE IS HARAAAM. ALLAH(SWT) TEST US ALL. NEVER GIVE UP. PATIENT PATIENTS IS MENTION NUMEROUS TIME IN THE QURAN. INSTEAD OF TAKING YOUR OWN LIVE TRY TO TAKE ONE OF THEIRS, THE PEOPLE WHO IS DOING THIS TO YOU. AND IF THEY KILLED YOU THEN YEA, YOUR WILL BE HAPPY TO DIE THEN.
british police get raped. although suicide is haraam is islam what is a brother ment to do when he is being tortured? there are rights and wrongs on this debate, jus one of those only allah can judge.
Inshallah Very soon America and americans will be destroyed Badly.They will die just like dogs and bitches.because they dont have even a thing called religion..no one will help them after Death and even here in this fake world..inshallah One Day our ALLAH will show his Anger..and all the non-muslims will Cryy like babies.
I hope things have improved for him and his family insha'Allah, his self-harm pics are absolutely disturbing. May Allah make him strong and rid him from trying to commit suicide. Ameen.
Time we woke up. These people arent the problem; our own government is. Not all white English believe the lies, why do you think offcom is trying to shut down PressTV? and America tries to shut down AlJazeera?
im against terrorism because i believe in unity but the fact is and i also curse the infidels for abusing innocent muslims they will suffer great torment in the pit of hellfire. they will suffer great claustrophobia in a coffin made of raging fire which will be chained thousand times and padlocked!
...you deserve everything you got you dirty muslim pedo worshipping bastard!! Why dont you use that razor to have a shave you dirty shit smelling evil muslim pig? Better still, slice your neck you evil piece of muslim shit? You are not welcome in this world. Muslims will be exterminated before long.
@coltsuperocean10 u son of a bich islam is the second largest religion in the world and its growing like wildfire, how will it be exterminated u mother fucker
@billymaster11 hahahahahaha muslim mother fuckin bastards like you deserve to be dead!! Can I ask a few questions to you please? Do you worship evil pedophile bastard mohammed? Do you beat your wife? Do you you beat your children? Are you evil dirty muslim bastards that smell of shit? Do all all muslims have hairy faces (MEN AND WOMEN) You are the evil enemy of the world. Muslims are evil fuckin backwards bastards!! I want you evil pigs DEAD!! I HATE YOU EVIL MUSLIM PIGS!!
@coltsuperocean10 Racist. These people need to be in prison instead of Babar. No, they dont beat their children or their wives. And if Muslims are bastards then you say everything they believe is shit. Terrorism and killing is forbidden in islam. Anyone who is a terrorist IS NOT a PROPER Muslim. And you sir, deserve to be in that cell, not Babar Ahmed. What you just said right here is ILLEGAL.
@TheObsidianFrost .....face the facts you evil piece of shit muslim bastard!! Muslims beat their women and children..FACT!! muslims worship a pedophile called mohammed ...FACT! Muslims are evil hate filled dirty bastard pigs, hell bent on destroying jews...FACT!! (I am not a jew, I hate muslims) Muslims smell of shit and wear a dress like a women...FACT!! Muslims are the scum of the Earth!! FACT!! Muslims are evil bastards..FACT!! I want you evil pigs dead!! FACT!!!!
Muslims are not pigs and Hitler was the one who destroyed Jews I mean wtf
How do they smell of shit? YOu mean you went to a peice of shit, smelt that, smelt a muslim and thought they were the same? I dont think thats a fact you moron
How the hell do they dress like women? That cant be a fact. Thats an opinion...
@coltsuperocean10 u thick mother fucker if islam is evil then why r cristians converting to islam and why are famouse celebritys converting to islam? u thick white fuck
@billymaster11 - Islam is the second largest religion in the world because you're moving to all different countries in the world! Take England for example, there are 3 schools on my estate, all now have different languages on the signs? There are Islamic building being built in my town for you. That's no wondering it's the biggest second, because your all over the fucking place. If you stayed in your country, would it be? I'm not racist, just pissed off at what England has become!
@EasyNowSon r u retarded or something ilslam dosnt originate from 1 country there are loads of muslim countrys in the world. some may u have visited for ur holiday but u neva realised
@kareemabdullah Yea, but this is not fair. They physiologically messed with the guy. May Allah give him the patience to endure it, but that is allot to ask for to wait. Medications for what? They are giving him all this meds just messing his mind up... Wouldn't that provoke some thoughts to kill yourself to end it. God help those people. Amin.
@kareemabdullah shut up you stupid, americans and Eruropeans are killing muslims around the world and attacking muslim countries and people like you is a shame to islam and muslim you coward
He lost all credibility when he said lost 5 or 6 liters of blood.. because that's all a grown up man has... a loss of more than 1-1.5 liters is deadly. I wonder what else of his story is utter bullshit
@sooperfukker it's about subjectivity. You lose a litre of blood it will seem like 5 litres. Clearly a man with limited education, but is this really about examining his IQ?
Hardly think its fair to base all credibility on his way of saying that he lost a lot of blood.
he lost 5 or 6 liter blood, so he must be tottally empty. what a crappy lier. He carries a razor everywher to shave his penis hair for praying, otherwise he is not 'clean'
Remember, rubbish in, rubbish out. When you are treated badly, you treat them badly. Love brings Love, Hate brings hate, SIMPLE, Be united, WE ARE ALL THE SAME. Love & Respect each other.
@b1gbudda Has some religeous freaks ever flown anything into a building before? Im not trying to support religeon, because it is the biggest scam of all time, but what im pointing out is that the American Government/CIA is behind 9/11, you should get your facts straight. It is very simple to proove, 3 buildings falling to the ground Demo style, because of a fire, first time in history a skyscraper falls from fire 3 times in one day, c'mon now...Do some research.
@bellijklh What the fuck is wrong with, you the religion does this to people?? After watching this video that's all you could come up with? You poor motherfucking brainwashed sheep. It is quite obvious what has happened to this man and it is not because of religion. It is because of bigoted flock-following pieces of sewage like you.
And they wonder why muslim youth are pissed of.....! the british police are hooligans. not just to muslims, to pretty much everyone! eeeeeeeesh they need to sort themselves the hell out. and for the love of god dont tell me "if you dont like it go back to ur own country" COS IM BRITISH BORN N BRED. eat that. >.<
why the fuuuuck can they let him sit and talk about this in a interwiev?? no phone. no letter bla bla, its lie, if its true they never gonna let him talk about this
They have done it in the usa for elegal aliens and transported them out of the country without letting them have a phone call to let familys know, its bloody kidnaping.
This kind of thing happens and i believe that if we tolorate it, when it happens to you no one will suport you because you get immune to things happening around you
any one can be taken in to custody for terrorism without charge , without solisitors, and no outside help in any shape or form and worst of all they dont need any evidence to do it, that means they can pluck you of the street and make you disapear and your family wont know where you are,it has been like this in usa for years....
This interview was disturbing to view! No-one could doubt that this sort of horrific abuse takes place.Whatever your views on Islamic extremism,there is no justification for this type of abuse.There has been much debate,with the last government re:the length of time a suspected terrorist may be held in custody without charge.If 'intelligence gathering' has been successful,then charge the suspect immediately or release him/her! We are meant to be the most intelligent species on the planet!
@Derukugi2 So lets be clear, what would it take for me to prove to you that taqiyya does not mean a blanket permission on lying?
Considering that anything I will say, will be taken as lying, because of your initial assumption, you create an irrefutable argument, which is entirely self contained within its premise. 'All Muslims lie', a Muslim says 'no I don't', 'He is lying'.
Its a nice device, but not particularly serious or valid.
It is not a "device", it is a simple statement of fact. Islamic dogma is very clear on that lying to kuffars is quite OK. And if you are muslim, then by definition you follow that dogma.
So, by defintion, the only time when a muslim tells the truth is when he admits that muslims do lie.
@Derukugi2 Statement of fact? More like unfalsifiable assertion. I can ask you for proof, and you can just say 'well there is no proof because Muslims lie about the proof'. I have never been taught that it is permissible to lie outside of situations of imminent threat or white lies (like telling one's wife she looks beautiful, even if she does not). Unless I am being tortured, I have no more permission to lie to a non-Muslim than I do to a Muslim.
Save your additional taqqiya. If lying for the good of islam was not an islamic concept, then why does islamic doctrine not have one but two words for this?
If you are really unaware of the doctrine, you are not much of a muslim (good for you). If you are muslim and aware of this, then stop trying to practise your lame Kutman/Taqqiya on me and others.
@Derukugi2 I am not disputing that taqiyya (defined as lying about being Shia) is part of Shia Islam, but I humbly ask for proof that it is a part of Sunni Islam. The closest thing I have seen in any legal texts is iditar, 'lying when in physical danger'.
Muslim legal texts are not hidden, you can buy them in any Muslim book store. If it is a real thing for Sunnis, you should be able to show me a reference to where it is permissible. You know, proof?
I am not here to educate you on islamic doctrine. Go to any islamic site of "ask an imam" type to read plenty of justifications why muslims (never mind Sunni or Shia) can lie to us stinking kuffars.
Again, if lying to kuffars is not acceptable, why do you have not one but TWO islamic words for it (Taqiyya and Kitman)? I know of no other "religion" that has specific words for justified deception.
Again, if you are unaware of all that, good for you.
@Derukugi2 So you don't have any proof. I thought not. What sites and people who have an agenda against Muslims have done is created a great tool for their followers to argue with: saying that all Muslims are liars. By picking a legal precedent in Shia Islam (which is a minority of about 8%) and misrepresenting it, they have given people an impossible point for Muslims to argue against, because they will be accused of lying regardless.
If you believe in a teaching that says it is OK to lie to unbelievers, then Yes, it is absolutely justified to assume that you lie.
There is nothing devious about it, it is simple logic.
Of course I am not talking about pointless lying about everyday things. I am talking about deceiving unbelievers about the the nature of Islam. That is what Kitman and Taqiyya refer to.
@Derukugi2 There is no teaching that says 'it is okay to lie to unbelievers'. There is a teaching that says that if you are being tortured, or are threatened, you are able to lie in order not to die. For example, if you were in Spain when the Christian inquisition came knocking, ready to get their flame on, then you could say 'yeah sure, I'm Catholic'.
However lying about the 'nature of Islam' is nonsensical. What would the point be?
There are many verses in the Koran that you can base Taqiyya on, for example 3:28 and 16:106. And there are countless Haddiths where Mohammed lied to his enemies or encouraged lying.
But again, why do you ask me to explain the obvious to you? It is not something that I have made up. Any islamic site can give you justification for lying to us infidels. And history is full muslim deceipt.
It is quite pervers that you ask a kuffar like me to teach you islamic doctrine.
That is the thing, I am not asking you to 'teach me Islamic doctrine', I am pointing out that in my years of study of the Sha'riah, before and after becoming Muslim, I have never found anything that supports what you say. I don't believe you made it up, I believe someone else did, and you believe it.
The verses you quote don't support lying at all. The Prophet said 'Shall I not inform you of a great sin? Beware, it is to speak falsehood'. Lying is a major sin.
The verses that I quoted do very much support lying to infidels for the benefit of islam. Spare me your Kitman please.
If you really think that you have found a generic "Thou shalt not lie" in islam, like Christianity has, without any buts and ifs, then go and convince your Kitman and Taqiyya practising co-religionists of that. Thank you,.
@Derukugi2 One verse refers to not taking a non-Muslim as your guardian. The other refers to what I previously mentioned: iditar. The verse specifically refers to one forced to denounce faith through coercion and threat. You haven't provided any convincing proofs, because there are none. Continually saying that it is the case, does not constitute proof.
I personally wouldn't feel comfortable holding such an shaky position. Maybe you should go back to only listen to those who agree with you?
Both verses provide perfect justification for lying to infidels. (And by the way, it says "friend", not "guardian".)
And you have not given support for your shaky position that Islam has an equivalent to the clear christian rule of "Thou shalt not lie". And of course you won´t because you can`t.
But again, if you think you have found such a command, then please tell it to your co-religionists. They need to hear it.
So you're going to teach me Arabic now too? Wali, in the grammatical context of the verse, means 'guardian'.
I gave you several clear Prophetic injunctions against lying. What would you say that the Prophet calling lying a great sin is otherwise? There is no general prohibition, as one can lie if they are under threat to their life. That being the only time.
I know many Muslims, including extremists, I have never come across a single one, even the nutters, who have the idea yo present.
@Derukugi2 The Quran is in Arabic, the Arabic says 'wali' which, according to the grammar, means 'guardian' not 'friend'.
You have given no verses that make it permissible. You are the one with the claim (all Muslims lie) yet you have no proof, and ask me to disprove it. I say 'here are the commands against lying' and you don't take them as truth? How then can I take you as a logical person, if you don't give evidences and don't accept any?
I do not know what "all muslims" do. I said that islam permits deception by muslims agains non-muslims for the benefit of islam (call it lying or not), and even has specific words for it. Why would islam have words for something that does not exist?
As you can see, your Taqiyya gets you nowhere here. Maybe you should return to your friends and plot the downfall of of the infidel world.
@Derukugi2 As I said, taqiyya is a legal concept in Shia Islam that refers to hiding within Sunni society. That is what taqiyya means. For you to say it is a general thing across all Muslims, you need to back such a thing up.
Islamic law permits a Muslim to lie in specific circumstances, as I previously elaborated. If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to renounce the religion, you can. It does not make lying about Islam permissible, or more generally lying to non-Muslims permissible
"Islamic law permits a Muslim to lie in specific circumstances, as I previously elaborated."
Exactly. So what are we arguing about. The answer given on islamic Q&A sites to the question if islam permits lying is usually a laconic: "No, except in war."
So, consider yourself in a jihad, or consider islam under attack, and lie away.
Now quit your failed Youtube Taqiyya, and go back to your Salafi friends. Bye.
@Derukugi2 I am not a Salafi, Salafis are about 2% of Muslims and are not representative.
That is not what you said, you said 'the only Muslim who tells the truth is one who says Muslims always lie'. It is not enough to be in war, or for 'Islam to be under attack', whatever that means. There needs to be CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER, for someone to be allowed to lie.
What you are implying is a general permissibility of lying to non-Muslims. Which is a falsehood.
In "Reliance of the Traveler" (a text on Islamic law that is endorsed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo as representative of Sunni orthodoxy) there is a fascinating section on lying and when it is permissible and, at times, mandatory. Deliberately misleading someone is also permissible and a good alternative to lying.
Maybe the Shia call it taqyiya and the Sunnis just call it.... whatever euphemism you want to use.
I have the reliance of the traveller in front of me. Here is a quote: 'Primary texts from the Quran and Sunnah that it is unlawful to lie are both numerous and intersubstantive, it being among the ugliest sins and most disgusting faults.'
The section on permissible lying again discussed lying to one who wished to do harm. The classic example being if Nazis came to your door, asking where the Jews are. Would it then be immoral to lie? Of course not! Do you object to this form of lying?
No, that is no classic example. The religious doctrine about lying in that passage about "permissible lying" is very different and much broader.
And your example of protecting Jews is quite callous, coming from muslim. In light of the rampant Jew-hatred all across the islamic world and the dozens of antisemitic hate verses in the Koran, such an example is in very bad taste indeed.
@Derukugi2 So let me be clear, do you think that lying in that circumstance would be morally reprehensible? Do you not see how a general prohibition on lying is reprehensible, simply because, in the circumstance 'thou shalt not lie' would cause death and suffering?
I have no hatred of the Jews, the Jews came to the Ottomans when the pogroms raged in Europe and were welcomed. The hate that exists now is not about anti-semitism it is about Zionism.
Lying to protect a jew would not be morally reprehensible to me. But it would certainly be reprehensible to a muslim, seeing all the hatred for Jews that is contained in the koran and the haddiths. As I pointed out, islamic lying is encouraged to promote jihad. Not to save Jews. Your example is dishonest.
As is your Ottoman Caliphate example. One benevolent Caliph does not change islamic doctrine.
Again, spare your Kutman. The Salafi in this video is lying through his teeth.
@Derukugi2 I am a Muslim, and I would view such a thing as not morally reprehensible. I have never in my religious education been taught any antipathy towards the Jews.
I am not talking about one benevolent Caliph, I am talking about standard policy.
I am not making any comments on this video, I am not a Wahhabi. I was objecting to your assertion that lying to non-Muslims is fine, and indeed encouraged.
@Derukugi2 Now from where I am standing, it is you who has the problem with reinterpreting the Quran. Is it only I who knows that most of the Prophets in the Quran are Jews? There are discussions of specific Jewish tribes, and a rejection of the validity of the concept of 'chosen people' certainly, but general hatred is going a bit too far.
They are ahlul Qitab, 'people of the book', and there has been little problem between us, at least before Israel's creation in the early 20th century.
So, you give me standard "stupid kuffar" treatment... sad, but alas not surprising.
As a converf you know VERY WELL that the Koran and Haddith are full of Jew hatred.
Islamic persecution of Jews long precedes Israel, as you know too. Dhimmitude (the life envision by islam of non-muslims) is a slow form of genocide in itself.
To claim Moses and Jesus as islamic "prophets" is an insult to other religions. How about Ron Hubbard claiming Mohammed as an early prophet of Scientology?
I have not seen 'Jew hatred' in the Qur'an or the hadith. To believe that such a racial bias exists requires a very selective interpretation of the sources.
Ah yes, genocide... where Jews are taxed less (the jizya is 0.5% of savings while zakat is 2.5%) and live by their own laws. Sounds absolutely horrible! No wonder they fled the tolerant Christian world for the oppressive shores of the Muslim world. lol.
If you "haven`t seen" the Jew hatred in the Koran or the Haddith, you are either blind, or haven´t done your homework, or you are lying. But alas, such denial/deception is a typical muslim response.
As for Jews under Shariah, just look at the facts on the ground. How many Jews are left in Saudi, Mohammeds country? Zero, zilch. In Afghanistan: 1 (one). In Iraq: 20 (twenty), Continue at will...
Dhimmitude is slow-motion genocide. That is simply historic fact.
@Derukugi2 There is a long history of Jews in Iraq, they were expelled/left in reaction to the creation of the state of Israel. So that argument makes no sense.
There have historically been large Jewish populations throughout the Muslim world. There have never been the kind of pogroms that occurred in Europe. I don't think you know what the word 'genocide' means.
I am not lying and I do my research, how about you bring some evidence to the table?
@Derukugi2 Blame Israel? It is not about blame, it is about causality. I blame the people who expelled the Jews. However the reason they did it was Israel, not Islam.
Historically the Jewish populations in Saudi Arabia were far smaller, there is historical evidence of some tribes still existing about 1500 CE or thereabouts. Do you have historical evidence that they were expelled or killed? Anything to support your claims?
"However the reason they did it was Israel, not Islam"
That is a ridiculous statement. Firstly, Persecution of Jews preceded the founding of israel. Secondly, why did only islamic countries take such an offense to the founding of Israel? I don´t recall Jews being expelled from, say, Buddhist or Hindu countries because of Israel.
If the founding of Israel is such an offense unrelated to islam, then why were Jews only per
@Derukugi2 No Buddhist or Hindu country is in the same region. Israel was founded in the Levant, an important part of the Middle East. If it was Islam that caused it, wouldn't there have been no Jews left to expel?
@Derukugi2 I didn't say they were. Iraq is in the Middle East, and I didn't mention Afghanistan.
I am not saying that the persecution of Jews didn't exist before the founding of Israel, merely that to base your idea of it upon the contemporary context in the Middle East is to be anachronistic with history.
The issue here is causality. In order for 'Islam' to cause something, Islam surely has to condone it, right? Otherwise it isn't about Islam. The Sha'riah does not condone genocide.
You are absolutely right with the causality. And as I pointed out before, if you are unaware of the Jew-hatred contained in the Koran and the Haddiths, you are a) unaware of it or b) lying about it.
Regardless of a) or b), I am not going to get into a scriptural discussion on 100-letter limited comment board.
You can read e.g. the Hamas charter or the rantings of the countless islamist clerics and hear the logic from then. Your discussion should be with them then.
@Derukugi2 Hamas is a political party, not a party of Islamist clerics.
There are clerics, and then there are scholars. Just because someone calls themselves a Sheikh and wears a turban, doesn't mean they know the least bit about the religion.
If you are unable to site me even one ayat or hadith in proof, then I have to dismiss your argument out of hand.
@Derukugi2 I think that Hamas are far from the only representation of Islam that exists. It is very easy to claim to be guided be guided by Allah, another thing entirely to represent that. Islam is not a monolith, it is not one thing, all Muslims are not the same. If you want to talk about Islam, you have to define what you are saying when you use the word. What do you mean when you say 'Islam', do you mean 'what Muslims do'?
You are right. Islam is not a monolith. That is why Ahmediyyas and Alevites are not represented among islamic terrorists.
Sort of my point: Belief matters.
And both Sunni and Shiah clerics continue to take the radical islamic verses literally. So, instead of denying, you should take up the discussion with them.
@Derukugi2 Actually, the Shia are well known for shying away from literalism. The same is true of mainstream Sunnis.
I don't know how that makes your point. What you are talking about is a generalisation across Muslim understandings of Islam. You talk about 'Islamic dogma' as though that is one thing. You talk about 'the nature of Islam'.
As to 'taking up the discussion with them', why is doing so incompatible with talking with you? I confront problematic Muslims as much as anyone else.
Islamic dogma is what is stated in islamic scriptures. The nature of islam is what flows from that.
Now if you turn around and argue that there is no such thing as islamic dogma, you might as well say there is no islam. That is an absurd argument.
As long as islamists are on a jihad to destroy modernity and submit the whole world under Shariah, it is dishonest of you to talk to people like me and pretend there is no problem with islam.
I think that there is no such thing as a single, irrefutable thing called 'Islamic dogma'. A more accurate description would be the plural: dogmas. There is no single interpretation of Islamic scripture, even within small communities. Attempting to assert that there is only one interpretation is irrational.
There is no problem with Islam, there are problems with certain groups interpretations of Islam. You say get my house in order, as though you aren't living here too.
About islamic dogma. the problem arises when you declare that you believe that the Koran is the literal word of god and mohammed is the perfect man. When you take that as indisputable, then there is very little wiggle room to make islam a harmless religion.
Both Ahmediyya and Alevites have done that, and that is you (I assume) regard them as heretics.
About no problem with islam, that is ridiculous. Look around the world.
@Derukugi2 All Muslims hold to this idea, it is what defines one as a Muslim. The Messenger of God is the guidance for humanity, and the Qur'an is the Word.
How does this mean that Islam will not be a 'harmless religion' or different from the Jews or the Christians or whoever?
I see lots of problems in the world. I see that the 5 countries that supply the greatest amount of arms are not Muslim. I see that the two greatest wars in history were nothing to do with Islam. What do you see?
"All Muslims hold to this idea, it is what defines one as a Muslim".
Well, that is the point. There is a defining idea, of this ideology, and that is why you can indeed talk about its nature. The same way you can talk about the nature of communism or whatever
" I see that the 5 countries that supply the greatest amount of arms are not Muslim. "
LOL... how about the 5 countries that supply the greatest amount of terrorist suicide-bombers?
@Derukugi2 So beyond that defining point, can we really? The way I see it is that if you accept that definition, and then go off yourself and see what that means, we come upon a situation like we have between you and I, where I understand one thing, and you understand another. Who is the Muslim then? What is Islam then?
Who invented suicide bombing? Was it the Muslims? I certainly don't support suicide bombing, Allah says in the holy Qur'an 'do not kill yourself, verily Allah is most Merciful'.
I don`t know who "invented" suicide bombing. Other, e.g. the Tamil Tigers, have a record of that, too. But only islam has a clear theological justification for that.... instant entry to paradise.
Don´t tell me you are not aware of all the muslim clerics who preach that. And don´t ask me to explain to you... you know that moderate muslims have nary a islamic scriptural leg to stand on.
At the end of that discussion, I would have convinced you to become a Salafi.
There is no theological justification, one goes to heaven if they are a martyr. One cannot choose to be a martyr by disobeying God's command not to kill themselves. A man went to fight with a stolen jacket, and because of that, even though he died, he had his martyrdom stripped from him. One cannot kill themselves, or innocents, and still be a martyr.
No, you wont, you have no more scriptural expertise or standing than the Salafis.
What you mean "it was the Hindus"? Yes, the Tamil Tigers practised suicide bombing too, but that was a local problem in Sri Lanka.
When we get body-searched in airports today, it is because of your co-religionists.
About scriptures. you know full well that Koran is full or praise for Shahids.
And your mentioning of "innocents" is typical muslim taqqiya talk. Who is innocent? Any islamist preacher can tall you that I as a kuffar am not "innocent", so can kill me.
@Derukugi2 The Tamil Tigers invented suicide bombing, and they were a Hindu movement. The practice of wearing bandanas with Quranic verse was taken from the Tamil practice of verses of the Baghavad Gita and other Hindu texts on bandanas worn by suicide bombers.
You don't get body searched, I do.
I asked you about the verse that commands one not to kill themselves, I asked you before and I ask you again, how do you get around this while still being a literalist?
As I pointed out already, the Tamil Tigers were a local issue for Sri Lanka. Not a world-wide issue like the jihadists.
And islamic "martyrdom" suicide attacks long preced the recent suidice bombings, And the verses where the Shahids are promised all sorts of rewards are numerous, but of course you know that.
Frankly, I find your attitude dishonest. You pretend not to know your own newly-adopted religion and are asking me to radicalize you.
@Derukugi2 Can you point me to a point where there are suicide bombings occuring without some overarching political cause for the conflict? How many places have Hindu minorities at war?
Again, you repeat what you said before but don't answer my question. I know that a shahid is rewarded by Allah, but a shahid is defined by God as one who does not choose death. How can a suicide be a shahid? They can't.
Lol radicalise me? Better than you have tried! So we come back to you claimin taqiyya again?
Leave the Hindus out of it. For better or worse, the Tamil Tigers have been defeated.
The "overarching political cause" for the ongoing islamic suicide bombers, be they in New York, in London, in Madrid, in Iraq, in Nigeria, or (always the standby) in Israel is of course their view that they are on a Jihad against the kuffars and will get paradise and 72 virgins for their death.
If you think you can respond to them on theological grounds, good luck in re-inventing islam.
@Derukugi2 What the Tamil Tigers make clear to me, is that suicide bombing isn't exclusively a Muslim issue. What the logical person concludes is that, were the same circumstances to exist, similar things would occur, regardless of religion. So just to be consistant, do you say that Hindus are inclined towards terror?
There is no reinvention needed, even a literalist interpretation of the Qur'an rebuts the claims of suicide bombers.
Stop using the Tamil Tigers as a fig leaf. I am sure the Hindu belief in re-incarnation made it easier to indoctrinate them, but they acted for political movement, not for Hinduism. And they certainly were not rewarded by "paradise" for "martyrdom".
The islamic jihad is world-wide, and directly linked to islamic teaching.
The problem with "moderate" muslims like you is that they continuously defend the islamic radicals.
The Tamil Tigers acted with a political motive, just like Muslim suicide bombers, they used a religious justification for a political action, just like Muslim suicide bombers.
I don't defend radicals, I debate with them. What I defend is the religion itself, which is what you are attacking. You aren't attacking the radicals, you are attacking all Muslims.
This is directly linked to anti-Muslim teaching, and is illogical.
No, the Tamil Tigers did NOT use Hindu teaching as the basis for their terrorism. And Tamil Tigers were a local phenomonen, and one that is finished now.
Stop using this lame excuse, please. If there was a world-wide Hindu Jihad, with Hindu "martyrs" killing us infidels in London, New York, Madrid, Bombay, Thailand, Nigeria, Indonesia, or practically everywhere where there are Hindu preachers, that would be an issue. In the event it is not.
Maybe you simply are not understanding my point? I will say it again, the fact that Hindu suicide bombing was religiously justified and yet caused by politics, shows that it is not caused by Islam, but rather by specific political situations.
You say obfuscation, I say complexity and logic. Explain taqiyya to me again, have you forgotten our discussion below?
Stop lying. You can not find a Hindu cleric who justifies suicide bombing. And the Tamil Tiger ideology, which created the suicide bombers in Sri Lanka, is outlawed.
Should we not equally outlaw the islamic ideology, which creates suicide bomber terrorists all around the world?
Unless you address that issue, all you are doing is trying to feed us Taqiyya.
Most suicide bombings, pre-Iraq, apart from those in Sri Lanka, were in Palestine. They were carried out not only by Muslim groups, but also by Christian and Secular groups. Does not logic then dictate that it is not Islam that causes them, but the situation in Palestine?
The Tamil Tiger ideology is not outlawed, their organisation is. Just like radical Islamist movements are outlawed.
"hey were carried out not only by Muslim groups, but also by Christian and Secular groups"
Nope, not true. Stop trying to tell lies. Islamic "martyrdom" is islamic issue, not a christian or secular.
"Just like radical Islamist movements are outlawed."
Could have fooled me. Islamist ideology is taught everywhere where islam is. Is the muslim brotherhood outlawed? And again, you´d have a hard time arguing against it on theological grounds.
Lying? Look up the PFLP then come back and apologise to me for calling me a liar.
Maybe you don't know what happened to the Muslim brotherhood under Nasser. What do you mean when you say Islamist, I was talking about groups that perpetrate suicide attacks against civilians....
You know full well that Al Qaradafi, the spiritual leader of the muslim brotherhood, endorses suidiced bombings against Israelis. (Of course, for him, Jewish women and children are not "civilians", they are "fitna" that needs to be eliminated). So spare me the obfuscation.
And MB spokesman Kamal Al-Helbawy is calling for Arab youth to attack the West and establish the Caliphate... and none of these guys are banned.
You mean Qaradawi, who supported it as a tactic against military installations, not against civilians. Though of course my point still stands, as the Brotherhood have never been involved in a suicide attack.
So are you going to apologise for calling me a liar now? Did you look up that group? What about Habash?
Yes, I mean the Qaradawi who EXPLICITLY allowed the murder of Jewish CIVILIANS. Women, children, babies, grandmas, you name it. And Qaradawi is the intellectual head of the muslim brotherhood, and the islamist terrorists act on his words.
You can easily very that yourself. So, either you were lying again, or ignorant again.
SUICIDE IS HARAAAM. ALLAH(SWT) TEST US ALL. NEVER GIVE UP. PATIENT PATIENTS IS MENTION NUMEROUS TIME IN THE QURAN. INSTEAD OF TAKING YOUR OWN LIVE TRY TO TAKE ONE OF THEIRS, THE PEOPLE WHO IS DOING THIS TO YOU. AND IF THEY KILLED YOU THEN YEA, YOUR WILL BE HAPPY TO DIE THEN.
SuperMona2011 2 days ago
british police get raped. although suicide is haraam is islam what is a brother ment to do when he is being tortured? there are rights and wrongs on this debate, jus one of those only allah can judge.
kayzed786 1 week ago
DIS IS THE REAL FACE OF THE BRITISH POLICE, THEY ARE ALL RACIST.
DARAZAPRODUCTION 2 weeks ago 2
you carry a razor then use it to get a fucking shave !
bigrider2806 2 weeks ago
fucking dirty police no justice
sniper987 2 weeks ago
the brother sorry
omarshakeer1 3 weeks ago
and the sister is right suicide for being depressed is haram..
omarshakeer1 3 weeks ago
motherfucker Americans and Nato lost in Afganistan now want peace talks with Taliban we will fuck these dirty American pigs where ever we find
sameer594 4 weeks ago 3
You should use your fucking razor to shave your self !
85Damix 1 month ago
he was killed in afghanistan in 2010 and it was believed he was a martyr.
TheJuicybean 1 month ago
I've got news for this tool; we live in the UK and you can hardly ever see the sun, indoors or out.
And a real man kills himself by repeatedly smashing his head into a brick wall.
godkingRoss 1 month ago
He cut 5 cm into his wrist, and he lost 6 liters of blood? HARDLY!!! In that case he could have expressed himself differently. For instance like this:
"I pierced a razor through my arm and I lost 100% of my blood... and lived to tell the tale. Oh and I also survived without food for four months."
WHAT A LIAR!!!
Mussepryglaren 1 month ago
This is the Orwellian world we live in.. unbelievable. "1984..WE ARE BEHIND SCHEDULE.."
MoeRocco75 1 month ago
Ashame he made it out of Israel,if he ever wants a ticket I will be happy to purchase him one
fusilier45 1 month ago
@fusilier45 ill pay for the rest of his frenz and family
dred45337 1 month ago
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Inshallah Very soon America and americans will be destroyed Badly.They will die just like dogs and bitches.because they dont have even a thing called religion..no one will help them after Death and even here in this fake world..inshallah One Day our ALLAH will show his Anger..and all the non-muslims will Cryy like babies.
ShehryarMohmand 2 months ago
I hope things have improved for him and his family insha'Allah, his self-harm pics are absolutely disturbing. May Allah make him strong and rid him from trying to commit suicide. Ameen.
TheMuslimahSouljette 2 months ago
he probally wanted to kill himself because of the stupid police officers and the way he is brutally hit
maryammakbul 2 months ago
it wrong to take you life but allaah knows what every one does and you will always be habby not them they will be in hell with aut question.
fadwo1 2 months ago
I feel hurt just like BABAR AHMAD im only 9 i am sad please let him out 4 kidz and everyone else who aint rasist to islam inshallah babar ahmad
will be out 2 tell everyone what he saww inshallah he will be okay PLEASE PASS THIS AROUND ON ANY VID PLZ
ibraheemshan 2 months ago
see and its people like him who end up there, the ones with no
"natural" skills to fight against it, thats who they want the weak
who wont rip their juggulars out with their teeth right in front of
their higher ups just to get a point across to... someone.
McmullenEJ 2 months ago
Time we woke up. These people arent the problem; our own government is. Not all white English believe the lies, why do you think offcom is trying to shut down PressTV? and America tries to shut down AlJazeera?
Salam Alaikum.
BradBrassman 2 months ago
O,O k imagine if tht was ur brother ur sister ur cousin ur mum ur kids how cn
wud u feel for bein in jail 4 7years 4 nothin just ur religion huh?
id be beyond upset
bagsmone65 2 months ago 15
@bagsmone65 Crime in itself isnt it.
aidan21 2 months ago
the police think every muslim is a terrorrist
jahidul100 2 months ago
@jahidul100 ...they are right!!
coltsuperocean10 2 months ago
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@coltsuperocean10 how are they right
jahidul100 2 months ago
im against terrorism because i believe in unity but the fact is and i also curse the infidels for abusing innocent muslims they will suffer great torment in the pit of hellfire. they will suffer great claustrophobia in a coffin made of raging fire which will be chained thousand times and padlocked!
esjayay 2 months ago
This is awful.
olihill101 2 months ago
bullshit hate spreader.
retsevlyslegyn 3 months ago
...you deserve everything you got you dirty muslim pedo worshipping bastard!! Why dont you use that razor to have a shave you dirty shit smelling evil muslim pig? Better still, slice your neck you evil piece of muslim shit? You are not welcome in this world. Muslims will be exterminated before long.
coltsuperocean10 3 months ago
@coltsuperocean10 lol. Speak English please.
mad4raisins 3 months ago
@mad4raisins ...and you can fuck off too! That`s in English!
coltsuperocean10 3 months ago
@coltsuperocean10 u son of a bich islam is the second largest religion in the world and its growing like wildfire, how will it be exterminated u mother fucker
billymaster11 3 months ago
@billymaster11 hahahahahaha muslim mother fuckin bastards like you deserve to be dead!! Can I ask a few questions to you please? Do you worship evil pedophile bastard mohammed? Do you beat your wife? Do you you beat your children? Are you evil dirty muslim bastards that smell of shit? Do all all muslims have hairy faces (MEN AND WOMEN) You are the evil enemy of the world. Muslims are evil fuckin backwards bastards!! I want you evil pigs DEAD!! I HATE YOU EVIL MUSLIM PIGS!!
coltsuperocean10 3 months ago
@coltsuperocean10 Racist. These people need to be in prison instead of Babar. No, they dont beat their children or their wives. And if Muslims are bastards then you say everything they believe is shit. Terrorism and killing is forbidden in islam. Anyone who is a terrorist IS NOT a PROPER Muslim. And you sir, deserve to be in that cell, not Babar Ahmed. What you just said right here is ILLEGAL.
TheObsidianFrost 2 months ago 2
@TheObsidianFrost .....face the facts you evil piece of shit muslim bastard!! Muslims beat their women and children..FACT!! muslims worship a pedophile called mohammed ...FACT! Muslims are evil hate filled dirty bastard pigs, hell bent on destroying jews...FACT!! (I am not a jew, I hate muslims) Muslims smell of shit and wear a dress like a women...FACT!! Muslims are the scum of the Earth!! FACT!! Muslims are evil bastards..FACT!! I want you evil pigs dead!! FACT!!!!
coltsuperocean10 2 months ago
@coltsuperocean10 a good muslim is a dead one
CRUSHTHESILENCEREC 2 months ago
@coltsuperocean10 They do not beat their women and children
explain to me why Mohammed is a pedophile
Muslims are not pigs and Hitler was the one who destroyed Jews I mean wtf
How do they smell of shit? YOu mean you went to a peice of shit, smelt that, smelt a muslim and thought they were the same? I dont think thats a fact you moron
How the hell do they dress like women? That cant be a fact. Thats an opinion...
Theyre not scum, theyre human
Its forbiden to have a bastard child in islam.
TheObsidianFrost 2 months ago
@coltsuperocean10 u thick mother fucker if islam is evil then why r cristians converting to islam and why are famouse celebritys converting to islam? u thick white fuck
billymaster11 2 months ago
@billymaster11 - Islam is the second largest religion in the world because you're moving to all different countries in the world! Take England for example, there are 3 schools on my estate, all now have different languages on the signs? There are Islamic building being built in my town for you. That's no wondering it's the biggest second, because your all over the fucking place. If you stayed in your country, would it be? I'm not racist, just pissed off at what England has become!
EasyNowSon 2 months ago
@EasyNowSon r u retarded or something ilslam dosnt originate from 1 country there are loads of muslim countrys in the world. some may u have visited for ur holiday but u neva realised
billymaster11 2 months ago
suicide is forbidden in islam
kareemabdullah 4 months ago 36
@kareemabdullah ...well I would like to kill some muslim pigs if they want to die?
coltsuperocean10 2 months ago
@kareemabdullah Yea, but this is not fair. They physiologically messed with the guy. May Allah give him the patience to endure it, but that is allot to ask for to wait. Medications for what? They are giving him all this meds just messing his mind up... Wouldn't that provoke some thoughts to kill yourself to end it. God help those people. Amin.
PoeticAuthority 2 months ago
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@kareemabdullah You do under stand the psychological pressure this man is under right?
ProtoCyberpunk 2 months ago
@kareemabdullah if only extremists knew.
mauriciohavok 1 month ago
@mauriciohavok <---Zionist Troll Alert
fsacoor 1 month ago
@fsacoor not everyone in this world cares about your crazy beliefs, there are some of us that are not retarded. thank you.
mauriciohavok 1 month ago
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@mauriciohavok <---Zionist Troll Alert
fsacoor 1 month ago
@kareemabdullah you havent been in his position so you cant talk
Khan12078 1 month ago
@kareemabdullah shut up you stupid, americans and Eruropeans are killing muslims around the world and attacking muslim countries and people like you is a shame to islam and muslim you coward
sameer594 4 weeks ago
@sameer594 brother i think she was talkin about the guy who was trying to kill himself for nothinh
omarshakeer1 3 weeks ago
@kareemabdullah suicide is forbidden in christianity
Pawnbroker00 2 weeks ago
@kareemabdullah suicide is forbidden in most faiths. which is a shrewd business decision on god's behalf, them tithes don't pay themselves.
BarnacleGooseInvalid 1 week ago
i been to belmarsh its a holiday camp.
jimpurdie 4 months ago
He lost all credibility when he said lost 5 or 6 liters of blood.. because that's all a grown up man has... a loss of more than 1-1.5 liters is deadly. I wonder what else of his story is utter bullshit
sooperfukker 4 months ago
@sooperfukker it's about subjectivity. You lose a litre of blood it will seem like 5 litres. Clearly a man with limited education, but is this really about examining his IQ?
Hardly think its fair to base all credibility on his way of saying that he lost a lot of blood.
mdto3 4 months ago
@mdto3
He is the one insisting on being overly specific about his condition. Fact is: noone loses 5 liters of blood and lives.
The question arises : Is he just exaggerating his story or is he telling horseshit ?
sooperfukker 4 months ago
Wow... this was... ... I don't know what I shoud feel... Shame? Sadness?
TBH, Im a Brit. And I hate this country. I think the way people are treated in this country is appalling.
Gamerchimp 4 months ago
ppk? ppl? th? What are you talking about? I imagine your opinion is as worthless as your understanding of the English language!
dxn283 4 months ago
thats why black ppk dont like white and white ppl say were not racist they are th most racist ppl on earth
akamo121 4 months ago
he lost 5 or 6 liter blood, so he must be tottally empty. what a crappy lier. He carries a razor everywher to shave his penis hair for praying, otherwise he is not 'clean'
z2ara 4 months ago
@z2ara not necessarily a liar , he could be a zombie,
these fuckers should all carry a blade with them and follow his example !!! i am sick of them !!!
claireclark69 4 months ago
Remember, rubbish in, rubbish out. When you are treated badly, you treat them badly. Love brings Love, Hate brings hate, SIMPLE, Be united, WE ARE ALL THE SAME. Love & Respect each other.
callfari 4 months ago
belmarsh is a holday camp i was in hb4 spur 3 qand mr cole was a gret screw so was SO davies these muaslims moan at everything
jimpurdie 5 months ago
science will fly you to the moon
religion will fly you into a building
b1gbudda 5 months ago
@b1gbudda Has some religeous freaks ever flown anything into a building before? Im not trying to support religeon, because it is the biggest scam of all time, but what im pointing out is that the American Government/CIA is behind 9/11, you should get your facts straight. It is very simple to proove, 3 buildings falling to the ground Demo style, because of a fire, first time in history a skyscraper falls from fire 3 times in one day, c'mon now...Do some research.
afghi420 5 months ago
@b1gbudda yes from a to b
from 1 mental desease to the next
z2ara 4 months ago
@z2ara XD
b1gbudda 4 months ago
The Day all religion ceases to exist, and when greed dies.. The golden age shall rise.
Ecalyptus90 5 months ago
STOP ZE DAMN RELIGOUS DEBATE BE NICE LADYS PEOPLE CAN BELEIVE IN WHAT THEY WANT
Twigge125 5 months ago
i found this from michael rosen
911WasFun 5 months ago 2
@TheGuardian misleading title much?
yoogeo1 5 months ago
A razor should be used to shave, has nobody told him ?
dixon97a 6 months ago
Wow.
MrNomSauce 6 months ago
so sad that religion does this to people.
bellijklh 6 months ago
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@bellijklh What the fuck is wrong with, you the religion does this to people?? After watching this video that's all you could come up with? You poor motherfucking brainwashed sheep. It is quite obvious what has happened to this man and it is not because of religion. It is because of bigoted flock-following pieces of sewage like you.
ezc623 6 months ago
@bellijklh blaming what the police forces do to a person on religion?
so sad that people choose to stay prejuidice
GlamoOur94 5 months ago
religion is bullshit so go ahead and fucking kill each other....make it fast
JacobAllin 7 months ago
Poor little paki
2hotgotshot 7 months ago
And they wonder why muslim youth are pissed of.....! the british police are hooligans. not just to muslims, to pretty much everyone! eeeeeeeesh they need to sort themselves the hell out. and for the love of god dont tell me "if you dont like it go back to ur own country" COS IM BRITISH BORN N BRED. eat that. >.<
Tozzlez 7 months ago
try shaving with the razor.
ddandyy 7 months ago
if he dunt like it why doesnt he fuck off back to his own country
BarrageTaxVideos 7 months ago
@BarrageTaxVideos shut the fuck up ,
Lovettesz 7 months ago
are tax money is feeding you....eat pork and drink beer...in a a muslim country you would just vanish.
greyscout100 7 months ago
Well, this poor darling seems just so sweet in the interview. Of course, no other viewpoint is presented.
Derukugi2 8 months ago
needs hanging
blueberry5155 9 months ago
@blueberry5155 who mate?
SHAZWALLIS 8 months ago
why the fuuuuck can they let him sit and talk about this in a interwiev?? no phone. no letter bla bla, its lie, if its true they never gonna let him talk about this
inebackedi1 10 months ago
They have done it in the usa for elegal aliens and transported them out of the country without letting them have a phone call to let familys know, its bloody kidnaping.
0808SCOOTER 10 months ago
This kind of thing happens and i believe that if we tolorate it, when it happens to you no one will suport you because you get immune to things happening around you
any one can be taken in to custody for terrorism without charge , without solisitors, and no outside help in any shape or form and worst of all they dont need any evidence to do it, that means they can pluck you of the street and make you disapear and your family wont know where you are,it has been like this in usa for years....
0808SCOOTER 10 months ago 2
@0808SCOOTER
This reminds me of our time under the communist regime...
One just jumps to the corner shop for a pint of milk and never comes back.
I tell you this demovracy is the same as any other religion to keep people under control/terror.
Just shut up go to work and pay taxes.Money the government can spend in their own interest.
Orwell 1984!!
Norbeemagination 9 months ago
This interview was disturbing to view! No-one could doubt that this sort of horrific abuse takes place.Whatever your views on Islamic extremism,there is no justification for this type of abuse.There has been much debate,with the last government re:the length of time a suspected terrorist may be held in custody without charge.If 'intelligence gathering' has been successful,then charge the suspect immediately or release him/her! We are meant to be the most intelligent species on the planet!
popazz1 11 months ago
why? ya need a shave all the time?
michaelcottle1 11 months ago
He's lying.
MrRyan200 11 months ago
@MrRyan200
I believe it is called Taqqiya.
Derukugi2 8 months ago
@Derukugi2 Is he Shia? Taqqiya is the term used to describe the Shia fitting in to Sunni society.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
No. Sunnis also practise Taqqiva. Call it Kutman if you will. Call it simply lying.
But clearly this islamist thug is lying to the infidels.... following islamic example.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 So lets be clear, what would it take for me to prove to you that taqiyya does not mean a blanket permission on lying?
Considering that anything I will say, will be taken as lying, because of your initial assumption, you create an irrefutable argument, which is entirely self contained within its premise. 'All Muslims lie', a Muslim says 'no I don't', 'He is lying'.
Its a nice device, but not particularly serious or valid.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
It is not a "device", it is a simple statement of fact. Islamic dogma is very clear on that lying to kuffars is quite OK. And if you are muslim, then by definition you follow that dogma.
So, by defintion, the only time when a muslim tells the truth is when he admits that muslims do lie.
Nice try of Taqqiya, though.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 Statement of fact? More like unfalsifiable assertion. I can ask you for proof, and you can just say 'well there is no proof because Muslims lie about the proof'. I have never been taught that it is permissible to lie outside of situations of imminent threat or white lies (like telling one's wife she looks beautiful, even if she does not). Unless I am being tortured, I have no more permission to lie to a non-Muslim than I do to a Muslim.
But again, taqiyya right? *sigh*
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Save your additional taqqiya. If lying for the good of islam was not an islamic concept, then why does islamic doctrine not have one but two words for this?
If you are really unaware of the doctrine, you are not much of a muslim (good for you). If you are muslim and aware of this, then stop trying to practise your lame Kutman/Taqqiya on me and others.
Thanks.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 I am not disputing that taqiyya (defined as lying about being Shia) is part of Shia Islam, but I humbly ask for proof that it is a part of Sunni Islam. The closest thing I have seen in any legal texts is iditar, 'lying when in physical danger'.
Muslim legal texts are not hidden, you can buy them in any Muslim book store. If it is a real thing for Sunnis, you should be able to show me a reference to where it is permissible. You know, proof?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
I am not here to educate you on islamic doctrine. Go to any islamic site of "ask an imam" type to read plenty of justifications why muslims (never mind Sunni or Shia) can lie to us stinking kuffars.
Again, if lying to kuffars is not acceptable, why do you have not one but TWO islamic words for it (Taqiyya and Kitman)? I know of no other "religion" that has specific words for justified deception.
Again, if you are unaware of all that, good for you.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 So you don't have any proof. I thought not. What sites and people who have an agenda against Muslims have done is created a great tool for their followers to argue with: saying that all Muslims are liars. By picking a legal precedent in Shia Islam (which is a minority of about 8%) and misrepresenting it, they have given people an impossible point for Muslims to argue against, because they will be accused of lying regardless.
There is no such thing as sunni taqiya. Learn!
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
If you believe in a teaching that says it is OK to lie to unbelievers, then Yes, it is absolutely justified to assume that you lie.
There is nothing devious about it, it is simple logic.
Of course I am not talking about pointless lying about everyday things. I am talking about deceiving unbelievers about the the nature of Islam. That is what Kitman and Taqiyya refer to.
And islamic preachers do that routinely.
As your prophet said: War is deceipt..
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 There is no teaching that says 'it is okay to lie to unbelievers'. There is a teaching that says that if you are being tortured, or are threatened, you are able to lie in order not to die. For example, if you were in Spain when the Christian inquisition came knocking, ready to get their flame on, then you could say 'yeah sure, I'm Catholic'.
However lying about the 'nature of Islam' is nonsensical. What would the point be?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
There are many verses in the Koran that you can base Taqiyya on, for example 3:28 and 16:106. And there are countless Haddiths where Mohammed lied to his enemies or encouraged lying.
But again, why do you ask me to explain the obvious to you? It is not something that I have made up. Any islamic site can give you justification for lying to us infidels. And history is full muslim deceipt.
It is quite pervers that you ask a kuffar like me to teach you islamic doctrine.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
That is the thing, I am not asking you to 'teach me Islamic doctrine', I am pointing out that in my years of study of the Sha'riah, before and after becoming Muslim, I have never found anything that supports what you say. I don't believe you made it up, I believe someone else did, and you believe it.
The verses you quote don't support lying at all. The Prophet said 'Shall I not inform you of a great sin? Beware, it is to speak falsehood'. Lying is a major sin.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
The verses that I quoted do very much support lying to infidels for the benefit of islam. Spare me your Kitman please.
If you really think that you have found a generic "Thou shalt not lie" in islam, like Christianity has, without any buts and ifs, then go and convince your Kitman and Taqiyya practising co-religionists of that. Thank you,.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 One verse refers to not taking a non-Muslim as your guardian. The other refers to what I previously mentioned: iditar. The verse specifically refers to one forced to denounce faith through coercion and threat. You haven't provided any convincing proofs, because there are none. Continually saying that it is the case, does not constitute proof.
I personally wouldn't feel comfortable holding such an shaky position. Maybe you should go back to only listen to those who agree with you?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Both verses provide perfect justification for lying to infidels. (And by the way, it says "friend", not "guardian".)
And you have not given support for your shaky position that Islam has an equivalent to the clear christian rule of "Thou shalt not lie". And of course you won´t because you can`t.
But again, if you think you have found such a command, then please tell it to your co-religionists. They need to hear it.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
So you're going to teach me Arabic now too? Wali, in the grammatical context of the verse, means 'guardian'.
I gave you several clear Prophetic injunctions against lying. What would you say that the Prophet calling lying a great sin is otherwise? There is no general prohibition, as one can lie if they are under threat to their life. That being the only time.
I know many Muslims, including extremists, I have never come across a single one, even the nutters, who have the idea yo present.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
We are talking about English, not Arabic, and you gave no prophetic verses against lying to infidels for the benefit of islam. Zilch, none.
And no, I don´t doubt that you know many muslim extremists. Congratulations to such friends.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 The Quran is in Arabic, the Arabic says 'wali' which, according to the grammar, means 'guardian' not 'friend'.
You have given no verses that make it permissible. You are the one with the claim (all Muslims lie) yet you have no proof, and ask me to disprove it. I say 'here are the commands against lying' and you don't take them as truth? How then can I take you as a logical person, if you don't give evidences and don't accept any?
Even the extremists don't believe this stuff.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
I do not know what "all muslims" do. I said that islam permits deception by muslims agains non-muslims for the benefit of islam (call it lying or not), and even has specific words for it. Why would islam have words for something that does not exist?
As you can see, your Taqiyya gets you nowhere here. Maybe you should return to your friends and plot the downfall of of the infidel world.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 As I said, taqiyya is a legal concept in Shia Islam that refers to hiding within Sunni society. That is what taqiyya means. For you to say it is a general thing across all Muslims, you need to back such a thing up.
Islamic law permits a Muslim to lie in specific circumstances, as I previously elaborated. If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to renounce the religion, you can. It does not make lying about Islam permissible, or more generally lying to non-Muslims permissible
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
"Islamic law permits a Muslim to lie in specific circumstances, as I previously elaborated."
Exactly. So what are we arguing about. The answer given on islamic Q&A sites to the question if islam permits lying is usually a laconic: "No, except in war."
So, consider yourself in a jihad, or consider islam under attack, and lie away.
Now quit your failed Youtube Taqiyya, and go back to your Salafi friends. Bye.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 I am not a Salafi, Salafis are about 2% of Muslims and are not representative.
That is not what you said, you said 'the only Muslim who tells the truth is one who says Muslims always lie'. It is not enough to be in war, or for 'Islam to be under attack', whatever that means. There needs to be CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER, for someone to be allowed to lie.
What you are implying is a general permissibility of lying to non-Muslims. Which is a falsehood.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
In "Reliance of the Traveler" (a text on Islamic law that is endorsed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo as representative of Sunni orthodoxy) there is a fascinating section on lying and when it is permissible and, at times, mandatory. Deliberately misleading someone is also permissible and a good alternative to lying.
Maybe the Shia call it taqyiya and the Sunnis just call it.... whatever euphemism you want to use.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
I have the reliance of the traveller in front of me. Here is a quote: 'Primary texts from the Quran and Sunnah that it is unlawful to lie are both numerous and intersubstantive, it being among the ugliest sins and most disgusting faults.'
The section on permissible lying again discussed lying to one who wished to do harm. The classic example being if Nazis came to your door, asking where the Jews are. Would it then be immoral to lie? Of course not! Do you object to this form of lying?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
No, that is no classic example. The religious doctrine about lying in that passage about "permissible lying" is very different and much broader.
And your example of protecting Jews is quite callous, coming from muslim. In light of the rampant Jew-hatred all across the islamic world and the dozens of antisemitic hate verses in the Koran, such an example is in very bad taste indeed.
Be ashamed.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 So let me be clear, do you think that lying in that circumstance would be morally reprehensible? Do you not see how a general prohibition on lying is reprehensible, simply because, in the circumstance 'thou shalt not lie' would cause death and suffering?
I have no hatred of the Jews, the Jews came to the Ottomans when the pogroms raged in Europe and were welcomed. The hate that exists now is not about anti-semitism it is about Zionism.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Lying to protect a jew would not be morally reprehensible to me. But it would certainly be reprehensible to a muslim, seeing all the hatred for Jews that is contained in the koran and the haddiths. As I pointed out, islamic lying is encouraged to promote jihad. Not to save Jews. Your example is dishonest.
As is your Ottoman Caliphate example. One benevolent Caliph does not change islamic doctrine.
Again, spare your Kutman. The Salafi in this video is lying through his teeth.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 I am a Muslim, and I would view such a thing as not morally reprehensible. I have never in my religious education been taught any antipathy towards the Jews.
I am not talking about one benevolent Caliph, I am talking about standard policy.
I am not making any comments on this video, I am not a Wahhabi. I was objecting to your assertion that lying to non-Muslims is fine, and indeed encouraged.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Well, if you are a muslim and you are unaware of the jew-hatred in the Koran and the Haddith, you are not much of a muslim.
If you are aware of them and lie about them to kuffars like me, spare your Taqiyya.
If are aware of them and want to re-interpret the Koran, then take that issue up with your co-religionists and solve it.
But preaching to kuffars, claiming there is no problem with islam is pathetic.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 Now from where I am standing, it is you who has the problem with reinterpreting the Quran. Is it only I who knows that most of the Prophets in the Quran are Jews? There are discussions of specific Jewish tribes, and a rejection of the validity of the concept of 'chosen people' certainly, but general hatred is going a bit too far.
They are ahlul Qitab, 'people of the book', and there has been little problem between us, at least before Israel's creation in the early 20th century.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
So, you give me standard "stupid kuffar" treatment... sad, but alas not surprising.
As a converf you know VERY WELL that the Koran and Haddith are full of Jew hatred.
Islamic persecution of Jews long precedes Israel, as you know too. Dhimmitude (the life envision by islam of non-muslims) is a slow form of genocide in itself.
To claim Moses and Jesus as islamic "prophets" is an insult to other religions. How about Ron Hubbard claiming Mohammed as an early prophet of Scientology?
Derukugi2 7 months ago
I have not seen 'Jew hatred' in the Qur'an or the hadith. To believe that such a racial bias exists requires a very selective interpretation of the sources.
Ah yes, genocide... where Jews are taxed less (the jizya is 0.5% of savings while zakat is 2.5%) and live by their own laws. Sounds absolutely horrible! No wonder they fled the tolerant Christian world for the oppressive shores of the Muslim world. lol.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
If you "haven`t seen" the Jew hatred in the Koran or the Haddith, you are either blind, or haven´t done your homework, or you are lying. But alas, such denial/deception is a typical muslim response.
As for Jews under Shariah, just look at the facts on the ground. How many Jews are left in Saudi, Mohammeds country? Zero, zilch. In Afghanistan: 1 (one). In Iraq: 20 (twenty), Continue at will...
Dhimmitude is slow-motion genocide. That is simply historic fact.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 There is a long history of Jews in Iraq, they were expelled/left in reaction to the creation of the state of Israel. So that argument makes no sense.
There have historically been large Jewish populations throughout the Muslim world. There have never been the kind of pogroms that occurred in Europe. I don't think you know what the word 'genocide' means.
I am not lying and I do my research, how about you bring some evidence to the table?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Ah, blame Israel! That is just such an archtypical muslim reaction. As if to further underline the political nature of islam.
So, the Jews of Saudi Arabia, were also expelled because of "Israel"? LOL!
And no, if you claim not to have found Jew-hatred in the Koran and Haddiths, you clearly have NOT done your research. Or you are lying.
Because it is impossible verse after verse of rapid hatred, and Mohammeds repeated murder of Jewish tribes.
So please -- spare the Taqiyya.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 Blame Israel? It is not about blame, it is about causality. I blame the people who expelled the Jews. However the reason they did it was Israel, not Islam.
Historically the Jewish populations in Saudi Arabia were far smaller, there is historical evidence of some tribes still existing about 1500 CE or thereabouts. Do you have historical evidence that they were expelled or killed? Anything to support your claims?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
"However the reason they did it was Israel, not Islam"
That is a ridiculous statement. Firstly, Persecution of Jews preceded the founding of israel. Secondly, why did only islamic countries take such an offense to the founding of Israel? I don´t recall Jews being expelled from, say, Buddhist or Hindu countries because of Israel.
If the founding of Israel is such an offense unrelated to islam, then why were Jews only per
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 No Buddhist or Hindu country is in the same region. Israel was founded in the Levant, an important part of the Middle East. If it was Islam that caused it, wouldn't there have been no Jews left to expel?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Firstly, Afghanistan and Iraq are not in the Levant, so there goes your first justification.
Secondly, I pointed out the persecution of Jews existed before the founding of Israel. I did not say there were no Jews left in the Levant.
Although for Saudi-Arabia, your rethorical question certainly applies. Yes, in Saudi, there were no Jews left to expel.
Now I am waiting for you to use that as example of islamic benevolence, LOL
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 I didn't say they were. Iraq is in the Middle East, and I didn't mention Afghanistan.
I am not saying that the persecution of Jews didn't exist before the founding of Israel, merely that to base your idea of it upon the contemporary context in the Middle East is to be anachronistic with history.
The issue here is causality. In order for 'Islam' to cause something, Islam surely has to condone it, right? Otherwise it isn't about Islam. The Sha'riah does not condone genocide.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
You are absolutely right with the causality. And as I pointed out before, if you are unaware of the Jew-hatred contained in the Koran and the Haddiths, you are a) unaware of it or b) lying about it.
Regardless of a) or b), I am not going to get into a scriptural discussion on 100-letter limited comment board.
You can read e.g. the Hamas charter or the rantings of the countless islamist clerics and hear the logic from then. Your discussion should be with them then.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 Hamas is a political party, not a party of Islamist clerics.
There are clerics, and then there are scholars. Just because someone calls themselves a Sheikh and wears a turban, doesn't mean they know the least bit about the religion.
If you are unable to site me even one ayat or hadith in proof, then I have to dismiss your argument out of hand.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
And how do you want to separate politics from islam in Hamas?
Hamas founding slogan:
"Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief."
Is that religion, or politics?
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 I think that Hamas are far from the only representation of Islam that exists. It is very easy to claim to be guided be guided by Allah, another thing entirely to represent that. Islam is not a monolith, it is not one thing, all Muslims are not the same. If you want to talk about Islam, you have to define what you are saying when you use the word. What do you mean when you say 'Islam', do you mean 'what Muslims do'?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
You are right. Islam is not a monolith. That is why Ahmediyyas and Alevites are not represented among islamic terrorists.
Sort of my point: Belief matters.
And both Sunni and Shiah clerics continue to take the radical islamic verses literally. So, instead of denying, you should take up the discussion with them.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 Actually, the Shia are well known for shying away from literalism. The same is true of mainstream Sunnis.
I don't know how that makes your point. What you are talking about is a generalisation across Muslim understandings of Islam. You talk about 'Islamic dogma' as though that is one thing. You talk about 'the nature of Islam'.
As to 'taking up the discussion with them', why is doing so incompatible with talking with you? I confront problematic Muslims as much as anyone else.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Islamic dogma is what is stated in islamic scriptures. The nature of islam is what flows from that.
Now if you turn around and argue that there is no such thing as islamic dogma, you might as well say there is no islam. That is an absurd argument.
As long as islamists are on a jihad to destroy modernity and submit the whole world under Shariah, it is dishonest of you to talk to people like me and pretend there is no problem with islam.
Get your own house in order first.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
I think that there is no such thing as a single, irrefutable thing called 'Islamic dogma'. A more accurate description would be the plural: dogmas. There is no single interpretation of Islamic scripture, even within small communities. Attempting to assert that there is only one interpretation is irrational.
There is no problem with Islam, there are problems with certain groups interpretations of Islam. You say get my house in order, as though you aren't living here too.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
About islamic dogma. the problem arises when you declare that you believe that the Koran is the literal word of god and mohammed is the perfect man. When you take that as indisputable, then there is very little wiggle room to make islam a harmless religion.
Both Ahmediyya and Alevites have done that, and that is you (I assume) regard them as heretics.
About no problem with islam, that is ridiculous. Look around the world.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 All Muslims hold to this idea, it is what defines one as a Muslim. The Messenger of God is the guidance for humanity, and the Qur'an is the Word.
How does this mean that Islam will not be a 'harmless religion' or different from the Jews or the Christians or whoever?
I see lots of problems in the world. I see that the 5 countries that supply the greatest amount of arms are not Muslim. I see that the two greatest wars in history were nothing to do with Islam. What do you see?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
"All Muslims hold to this idea, it is what defines one as a Muslim".
Well, that is the point. There is a defining idea, of this ideology, and that is why you can indeed talk about its nature. The same way you can talk about the nature of communism or whatever
" I see that the 5 countries that supply the greatest amount of arms are not Muslim. "
LOL... how about the 5 countries that supply the greatest amount of terrorist suicide-bombers?
Stop the taqiyya please.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 So beyond that defining point, can we really? The way I see it is that if you accept that definition, and then go off yourself and see what that means, we come upon a situation like we have between you and I, where I understand one thing, and you understand another. Who is the Muslim then? What is Islam then?
Who invented suicide bombing? Was it the Muslims? I certainly don't support suicide bombing, Allah says in the holy Qur'an 'do not kill yourself, verily Allah is most Merciful'.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
I don`t know who "invented" suicide bombing. Other, e.g. the Tamil Tigers, have a record of that, too. But only islam has a clear theological justification for that.... instant entry to paradise.
Don´t tell me you are not aware of all the muslim clerics who preach that. And don´t ask me to explain to you... you know that moderate muslims have nary a islamic scriptural leg to stand on.
At the end of that discussion, I would have convinced you to become a Salafi.
No thanks.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
It was the Hindus.
There is no theological justification, one goes to heaven if they are a martyr. One cannot choose to be a martyr by disobeying God's command not to kill themselves. A man went to fight with a stolen jacket, and because of that, even though he died, he had his martyrdom stripped from him. One cannot kill themselves, or innocents, and still be a martyr.
No, you wont, you have no more scriptural expertise or standing than the Salafis.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
What you mean "it was the Hindus"? Yes, the Tamil Tigers practised suicide bombing too, but that was a local problem in Sri Lanka.
When we get body-searched in airports today, it is because of your co-religionists.
About scriptures. you know full well that Koran is full or praise for Shahids.
And your mentioning of "innocents" is typical muslim taqqiya talk. Who is innocent? Any islamist preacher can tall you that I as a kuffar am not "innocent", so can kill me.
So stop lying.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 The Tamil Tigers invented suicide bombing, and they were a Hindu movement. The practice of wearing bandanas with Quranic verse was taken from the Tamil practice of verses of the Baghavad Gita and other Hindu texts on bandanas worn by suicide bombers.
You don't get body searched, I do.
I asked you about the verse that commands one not to kill themselves, I asked you before and I ask you again, how do you get around this while still being a literalist?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
As I pointed out already, the Tamil Tigers were a local issue for Sri Lanka. Not a world-wide issue like the jihadists.
And islamic "martyrdom" suicide attacks long preced the recent suidice bombings, And the verses where the Shahids are promised all sorts of rewards are numerous, but of course you know that.
Frankly, I find your attitude dishonest. You pretend not to know your own newly-adopted religion and are asking me to radicalize you.
But I guess that is Taqiyya..
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 Can you point me to a point where there are suicide bombings occuring without some overarching political cause for the conflict? How many places have Hindu minorities at war?
Again, you repeat what you said before but don't answer my question. I know that a shahid is rewarded by Allah, but a shahid is defined by God as one who does not choose death. How can a suicide be a shahid? They can't.
Lol radicalise me? Better than you have tried! So we come back to you claimin taqiyya again?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Leave the Hindus out of it. For better or worse, the Tamil Tigers have been defeated.
The "overarching political cause" for the ongoing islamic suicide bombers, be they in New York, in London, in Madrid, in Iraq, in Nigeria, or (always the standby) in Israel is of course their view that they are on a Jihad against the kuffars and will get paradise and 72 virgins for their death.
If you think you can respond to them on theological grounds, good luck in re-inventing islam.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
@Derukugi2 What the Tamil Tigers make clear to me, is that suicide bombing isn't exclusively a Muslim issue. What the logical person concludes is that, were the same circumstances to exist, similar things would occur, regardless of religion. So just to be consistant, do you say that Hindus are inclined towards terror?
There is no reinvention needed, even a literalist interpretation of the Qur'an rebuts the claims of suicide bombers.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Stop using the Tamil Tigers as a fig leaf. I am sure the Hindu belief in re-incarnation made it easier to indoctrinate them, but they acted for political movement, not for Hinduism. And they certainly were not rewarded by "paradise" for "martyrdom".
The islamic jihad is world-wide, and directly linked to islamic teaching.
The problem with "moderate" muslims like you is that they continuously defend the islamic radicals.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
The Tamil Tigers acted with a political motive, just like Muslim suicide bombers, they used a religious justification for a political action, just like Muslim suicide bombers.
I don't defend radicals, I debate with them. What I defend is the religion itself, which is what you are attacking. You aren't attacking the radicals, you are attacking all Muslims.
This is directly linked to anti-Muslim teaching, and is illogical.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
No, the Tamil Tigers did NOT use Hindu teaching as the basis for their terrorism. And Tamil Tigers were a local phenomonen, and one that is finished now.
Stop using this lame excuse, please. If there was a world-wide Hindu Jihad, with Hindu "martyrs" killing us infidels in London, New York, Madrid, Bombay, Thailand, Nigeria, Indonesia, or practically everywhere where there are Hindu preachers, that would be an issue. In the event it is not.
Your obfuscation is Taqqiya.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
Excuse? How do you characterise it as an excuse?
Maybe you simply are not understanding my point? I will say it again, the fact that Hindu suicide bombing was religiously justified and yet caused by politics, shows that it is not caused by Islam, but rather by specific political situations.
You say obfuscation, I say complexity and logic. Explain taqiyya to me again, have you forgotten our discussion below?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Stop lying. You can not find a Hindu cleric who justifies suicide bombing. And the Tamil Tiger ideology, which created the suicide bombers in Sri Lanka, is outlawed.
Should we not equally outlaw the islamic ideology, which creates suicide bomber terrorists all around the world?
Unless you address that issue, all you are doing is trying to feed us Taqiyya.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
Most suicide bombings, pre-Iraq, apart from those in Sri Lanka, were in Palestine. They were carried out not only by Muslim groups, but also by Christian and Secular groups. Does not logic then dictate that it is not Islam that causes them, but the situation in Palestine?
The Tamil Tiger ideology is not outlawed, their organisation is. Just like radical Islamist movements are outlawed.
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
"hey were carried out not only by Muslim groups, but also by Christian and Secular groups"
Nope, not true. Stop trying to tell lies. Islamic "martyrdom" is islamic issue, not a christian or secular.
"Just like radical Islamist movements are outlawed."
Could have fooled me. Islamist ideology is taught everywhere where islam is. Is the muslim brotherhood outlawed? And again, you´d have a hard time arguing against it on theological grounds.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
Lying? Look up the PFLP then come back and apologise to me for calling me a liar.
Maybe you don't know what happened to the Muslim brotherhood under Nasser. What do you mean when you say Islamist, I was talking about groups that perpetrate suicide attacks against civilians....
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
You know full well that Al Qaradafi, the spiritual leader of the muslim brotherhood, endorses suidiced bombings against Israelis. (Of course, for him, Jewish women and children are not "civilians", they are "fitna" that needs to be eliminated). So spare me the obfuscation.
And MB spokesman Kamal Al-Helbawy is calling for Arab youth to attack the West and establish the Caliphate... and none of these guys are banned.
They are spouting their islamic bile unimpeded.
Derukugi2 7 months ago
You mean Qaradawi, who supported it as a tactic against military installations, not against civilians. Though of course my point still stands, as the Brotherhood have never been involved in a suicide attack.
So are you going to apologise for calling me a liar now? Did you look up that group? What about Habash?
SalehUddin1986 7 months ago
@SalehUddin1986
Yes, I mean the Qaradawi who EXPLICITLY allowed the murder of Jewish CIVILIANS. Women, children, babies, grandmas, you name it. And Qaradawi is the intellectual head of the muslim brotherhood, and the islamist terrorists act on his words.
You can easily very that yourself. So, either you were lying again, or ignorant again.
Derukugi2 7 months ago