Though he may have prayed this sincerely, it is a "prayer" tacking God on his agenda. Born again believers are called to take care of the orphans and widows, not a political party. And Christians are called to preach the Gospel, make disciples, and grow in holiness, not attach themselves to either political party. And the heart of Americans without salvation in Christ is desperately wicked according to the Bible. Don is about a social gospel along the lines of Rick Warren & Bill Hybels.
Don, really? I love you and your books, but this "prayer" goes against everything you say about authenticism. This was no prayer. Even if I agreed with it. This was a speech. Just make a speech if you want to, but don't hide behind a "prayer."
@theosmaximus not sure thats fair! ever think that he may have prayed it authentically as he wrote the prayer and just delivered it this way? i see where you are coming from but feel that comment was a little harsh.
@theosmaximus not sure thats fair! ever think that he may have prayed it authentically as he wrote the prayer and just delivered it this way? i see where you are coming from but feel that comment was a little harsh.
@wohs145 Eh, most liberal ideas are social and economical, NOT moral. I am a Christian, and I stand against MORAL issues, such as abortion and gay marraige. I defend what the bible has to say about that. But when it comes to economics, I think there is nothing un-christian about supporting certain liberal ideas. In fact, in a few cases, the democrats have behaved more like Christians than the Republicans.
@elijahsnyder Like I said, it sounds like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of either liberalism or christianity. Nothing you said challenges my initial statement.
@wohs145 you must not know Christianity then. For people like me and people like Don, we care about more things other than gay marriage and abortion. We care about people getting health care and social programs to help the poor. The Republican Party has constantly ignored their duty to give a crap about anyone else but the rich, and that's why I chose to leave and haven't looked back since.
@krishansonlovesyou So you think that using violent force to obtain funding for misplaced and ultimately ineffective "philanthropy" is the best way to serve the poor?
@krishansonlovesyou Its not a matter of paranoia... what do you think will happen if you don't pay your taxes? They'll come, with guns, and take you to jail, by force. Taxation is predicated on the threat of force/violence. Its not conspiratorial, its just a fact.
@wohs145 oh my gosh. you're truly brainwashed. Jesus was never against taxation. Guess what. If Ron Paul or Rick Perry were president, it'd still be illegal to not pay taxes. 9 out of the top 10 states with the highest amount of poverty is run by conservatives and 8 out of the 10 states with the lowest amount of poverty is run by democrats. So yes, our "philanthropy" is effective. And it's a hell of a lot better than the Republicans definition of "philanthropy": doing absolutely nothing.
@krishansonlovesyou I'm not brainwashed, and I dont know why youre in such a tizzy. I also don't know why you cant see past party lines. Who said anything about Rick Perry, Ron Paul, the GOP or the Democratic Party? I certainly didn't. Youre arguing against someone who isn't here, and for some reason youre pissed about it. Chill. Read some Tolstoy. Maybe some Rothbard. I dunno. Maybe you just need a brew. Or a hug, or a EBT card or something. Relax.
You're all haters. Donald Miller is the most amazing spiritual author and speaker. He approaches things with such an open mind and more than anything else, he's tolerant. He understands people, and he has so much compassion. I'm SO thankful for Donald Miller's book Blue Like Jazz. He speaks the truth. Lastly, I'm glad he's not just another person who claims to be Christian and gives into the Republican party. His reasons for supporting Obama are legitimate. Miller is a role-model. bitches.
yeah i definately agree with jakethespud, well for the most part. in Blue Like Jazz you have to stop and think about some of the chapters and you can never just stop reading if your not at the end of a chapter. ps. idk why but I always imagined him skinny but it looks like he has not always been that way. the only reason it bothers me is because i don't know how to imagine him throughout the book(because of all the different time periods
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Indeed they do.
you might not have known this to be true because unlike many christian conservatives, liberals respect individual opinion and belief instead of cramming the words of "jesus christ" down your throat.
I finally finished "Searching..." after over four months of reading it. I felt that I needed to take a break after each chapter to digest the thought morsel I consumed. It is truly a stirring work.
I agree... There is a lot of propaganda that democrats are anti-God or something throughout the South, where a large population of Republican-voting "conservatives" reside... Not to disrespect the Church in the South, but the fact is that many believers attepmt to add political values to Christian doctrine, which is simply not Biblical. I will vote for who I think will to the best job in office, and I don't claim to be liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican. Why limit yourself to that?
Amen brother! I know what your saying,I live in Texas and went to a Bible college, so you can imagine my perspective on that LOL. there were probably like 10 democrats out of 1500 people that went to the school.
madhouse2009 I totally agree. I live in South Carolina and I went to a Catholic high school, and they considered it a sin to vote for Obama. I'm not a Democrat, but I understand that church should not embrace a particular party it was never meant to. It seems like they make Christianity more about social issues instead of spreading and teaching the Good Word.
Oh don't get me wrong. Social issues are very important. One of the current issues that is very close to my heart is the crisis in Darfur. It's awful!
What is wrong is trusting in Government when our whole trust should be in God alone. People can vote for whoever they like, but God is still sovereign, and he appoints government rulers for his purposes. We should leave the political partisanship to conversation and focus on more useful topics (such as the power of prayer) from the pulpit.
I agree, but I also think that Don is a prayerful person. After reading his books and seeing him speak in person, I can only assume that he agreed to be there because God wanted him to be. I truely believe that God has put him in the special place in his "popularity" so that HE (God) can use him in a special way.
But, at the same time, if he did do this as a "Political Boost for Jesus" then I completely agree with you.
1 Timothy 2:1-4 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I know a lot of people who get really mad when ever a pastor or some church leader endorces a Republican (which I am against). But when some one supports a democrat it's not endorcement, it's being open minded. I like what my pastor said "Just vote the Gosple." meaning vote as God leads you, not man.
It's too bad that Donald couldn't include "the unborn" in his list of "the least of these" in his prayer. If Democrat leadership was really interested in reducing the number of abortions in this country, he should've been free to say that, but we all know that had he done that, he would've been booed off that stage.
Did anyone notice the long pause 1:44-1:56? He released a print version of what he had written a few days before hand and right after he says, "Will you give us favor and forgiveness," he's supposed to continue, "along with our allies around the world. Help us be an example of humility and strength once again." Despite his being censored, I can't help but applaud "Amen" to the gospel being proclaimed and the Lord's guidance being invoked at the DNC.
Speaking on behalf of the party that does everything it can to demean Christianity, support perverse actions, and promote the belief that charity isn't I give to someone in need, but I take from someone else and give to someone else.
Nice. Support thievery, debauchery, and wickedness all in the name of God.
As opposed to the republicans who war with nations that believe differently and have oil? How about we pray for our country and not fight over who is or isn't christian. Didn't Jesus eat and pray with the debauchees and thieves and wicked?
But I do support war against tyrants. The same people who will cry that we are not doing enough to help the poor people in Africa who are being raped and pillaged will decry that we are doing wrong in Afgan. and Iraq.
Tell me of one drop of oil that we have not paid for and I will kiss you feet. Why? Because there hasn't been profit for this country.
Jesus did eat with them. And so do I. But God placed gov't in order to restrain wickedns
There hasn't been profit for this country? Chevron made $18.7 billion in profits. My problem with Iraq is that there isn't any resolution in sight. The destructor should never be the rebuilder. David couldn't be the builder of the temple because to much blood was on his hands, and his son was to build the temple. Jesus never followed politcs, he just loved and healed people, as we should I think. I think the whole system needs reform, but it will start with us, not the president.
Also, The comment about us dealing with other countries like Iraq and Afghan and Africa is that we have enough poor and poverty stricken in our own country. Isn't there a verse about before you can lead others, your house has to be in order? Well, our house isn't in order and it gets worse everyday. We need to deal with our problems before we deal with other's.
"poor" is a relative term. most of the "poor" in the US have a tv, shoes on their feet, and cannot be refused medical care because they don't have insurance. many of the "poor" in countries in Africa are dying of starvation, easily treatable diseases, and only dream of the rights we enjoy as Americans. Let's put things into perspective.
...perspective. I take it you haven't been to the homeless shelter in your city recently. Or the projects. I never said America shouldn't help, but our situation isn't much better on some accounts. We should be helping everyone in need, but we need to show that we care, how can other countries see that we care about them when our homeless die in the streets?
People with Retirement plans are the shareholders. I own Chevron (part of it). So you are wrong on Iraq. You are wrong on the 'poor' in America. But you are right. It does start with us. And again; the U.S. gives more charity to the world than any other country (privately and publicly) than any other nation in the history of the world. Our monies should not be tied up in the bureaucracy of the Gov't. Somehow we think that if we give away money as given through the gov't it is efficient
So you own part of Chevron. Have you been to a shareholders meeting? Chevron profits jumped $220.9 billion. And let me ask, how much of that did you profit? A few pennies a share? Who got that money? The ceo. This dude is raking in the money. $15 million as a compensation package, and you think you own the company. I would be interested to know who really holds the majority of the stock.
If Jesus never followed politics (which is a presupposition I agree with), when why is Mr. Miller at the DNC?
The 'poorest' people in the US live better than the kings of the past. By Far. They have more entertainment, nutrition, and ability to ascend financially moreso than any in history.
No Solution? Someone hasn't been paying attention as we have been taking our hands off and the locals have been becoming the peacemakers.
Who own Chevron? Shareholders. Who are the shareholders?
Who says the democrats don't need prayer? Maybe the dude likes Obama as a friend...maybe Donald is like the rest of America and is tired of George's tyranny? Or maybe, he was invited to pray, and he said yes, because our politicians need to be prayed for, and he could give a flying flip about them. Honestly, I don't know why he is there, but just because Jesus didn't involve himself in politics doesn't mean he didn't pray for the politicians.
i agree with the first part of your statement, i was slightly disappointed to hear that he was at the convention, because his book is so good. Im not against it i was just suprised.
Don't hate the player, hate the game! This is a nation that is comprised of a bunch of people who love Jesus. You exist because of His love. Be glad that someone is praying for you and our country. You have the freedom to voice your opinion, because of God, the Father of Jesus. He sent His son because He knew that you would make crazy comments and wouldn't understand His love, but know this His love is big and you can't say that you never heard it before, when you're asked.
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Dear invisible Daddy in the sky,
Please eradicate religion in all its forms from our political proceedings, so that those in power may no longer lean on archaic and irrelevant systems of belief rather than effect real, tangible change in our country. Amen.
As if politics itself has really brought about much "real, tangible change"?
This nation should've addressed greenhouse gas emissions and oil consumption/conservation 15 years ago. Abnormally low food prices (due to the illegal and unfair wages paid to undocumented workers) should've been addressed decades ago. The politicians were not bowing to God, but to economics and the selfish American consumer. You have a lame argument.
Nowhere in my post did I claim that religion is the sole cause of our government's inefficacy. What I wrote was merely a response to seeing a prayer being told at a major politicial event. Certainly though, it doesn't help that a lot of these people's heads are up in the clouds with Jesus instead of down here with the American people, or that their attitudes towards the things you mentioned are largely informed by a "It doesn't matter anyway because the Rapture is coming soon" mentality.
What you need to understand is that those who really have their "heads up in the clouds with Jesus" so to speak are the people who are out and helping the poor, hungry, battered, lonely, and afraid in the world (not the only people OF COURSE, you don't have to be a Christian to do these things)All I am trying to say is that real followers of Jesus will have a passion for those less fortunate than them. It is the most important thing Jesus spoke of during his life.
(continued)... If you are making the assumption that many Christians seem too concerned with themselves than others, you may have an argument, but if you're saying Christians are largely void of intellect then you are ignorant of one of the largest religions in the world. I can't say your view is an uncommon one or not worth discussion, argument, or debate. I just want to inject a little more understanding into a discussion that I thought might appreciate it.
Our society has deemed all these rules. That we have to close our eyes and bow our heads and click our heels and eat fire before God will listen to us.
When Jesus died and rose again, every single rule about how we should pray went out the window. There is freedom in Jesus.
So to say that he isn't really praying is very bold. Even if he did write it out beforehand, it doesn't change God's desire to listen to us...
The issue here is not the FORM of prayer. It's whether the closing was a prayer or a speech. I suppose I would rather it had been a speech, as I don't like to see true prayer exist in jeopardy of being politicized. Of COURSE he had to open his eyes...he was READING. PS I raised the ire of another reader by saying, "I KNOW prayer". That was a play on an '88 political statement. If you don't know the reference, I admit it sounded arrogant and I understand their heated reaction. I apologize.
I agree that DM doesn't really claim left or right affiliation, and I applaud him for it. I don't think God cares if your Democratic, Republican, Liberal, or Conservative. What matters is love. Donald Miller stood up there showing the DNC and everyone watching at home courage and commitment. The only reason for Christianity being "used" is because its not a minority anymore. Theres a growing number of Christians and this party is simply affiliating itself with a more specified general public.
Considering its only a matter of opinion, I beleive that Donald Miller didn't lose anything. It was a simple prayer, he wasn't writing a book standing up there, which I found refreshing to the likes of our "generation". If you had read any of his books you would know that he doesn't like crowds, especially speaking to them. I'd be too nervous to lead prayer for that many people too...give me a teleprompter!
I'm disappointed in Miller's ... uh... prayer. Kind of sounded like a political speech at best, pandering at worst. Doesn't seem like the guy who wrote those books; he WAS reading it off the teleprompter, right? And just so you know, I didn't like the Republican one either. I'm not sure what he got from doing this gig, 'cause I think I know prayer, and... well... sorry. Really, it wouldn't have bothered me at all except I really thought a lot of him until this. Oh well...
im dissappointed in this ...uh...comment. Who are you to approve prayers? since you know prayer so much, you'd figure that you, being such a wise person, would realize that a prayer is a conversation with God.But, im sure that if miller knew there was a prayer nazi out there he would have ran it by you first. ya think you could be at my house for thanksgiving this year? I'd like to have my grandfathers prayer approved before he prays over dinner. Oh well...
Wow... down boy. I would never criticize somebody's conversation with God. Which is why I can be critical of what happened at the end of both conventions. Do you realize that some programs don't even attempt to call them "prayer"? You've realized, haven't you, that these things are strategically planned by organizers who don't take a break when the minister comes out to pray? Donald was "used", willingly, and I'm still disappointed..
ugg!!!you people frustrate me so much! it is ignorant to say that miller has lost any voice he had to your generation! if anything He gained a voice to your generation! now if your refering to the stonch religious right, he may have lost them, but you guys have it all together anyway right? but i guess Paul was ridiculed too for taking Jesus name into places where he was needed most. pull your heads out of your pharisee butts,wipe the crap from your eyes, and ask yourself where would Jesus pray!
I loved "Blue Like Jazz", but seeing this makes me sick to my stomach. Unfortunately Miller just "jumped the shark" and lost any voice he had to my generation.
Wow! The Democratic Party used to understand the need for church/state separation and didn't believe in gov't favoring one religion's beliefs. Now even the Democrats seek to demolish religious freedom by promoting Christianity over all other beliefs. It's amazing that people don't realize they can believe in a god in the way they want because we have kept religion and gov't separate--that's what gives people their religious freedom. Let ONE sect or religion gain control and that freedom is gone.
Do you really see this as dissolving the separation of church and state? That seems absurd to me. Don't you realize that to not mention God or Allah or Buddha is to promote the church of paganism above all other religions?
Oh. I'm sorry. I listened to it a couple of times and still missed the part where he mentioned Allah and Buddha. He did mention Jesus, though. Were there other prayers during the convention, too, where they made sure to mention Allah and Buddha and where a Jew comes up & negates belief in Jesus? I just don't get how most Americans don't see that the Democratic party began pandering to the religious wrong to win votes.
And I never said anything about Obama not being able to mention his personal beliefs, but he (and Hillary did, too) goes out of his way to bring up religion to the point where the Democratic Party is participating in religious debates and avoiding debates of substance, while making sure to exclude other candidates from debates to keep it a 2-party race. (Which they're able to do because the Democratics & Republicans own the Commission on Presidential Debates)
Voting and supporting one who supports murdering infants is the same as doing it yourself! THINK PEOPLE!! Nothing else matters!!! Education? are you serious!!! 40 million babies!!!!!!! No war has ever even touched the Halocaust of 40 million babies!!!
Donald MIller.... I loved Blue LIke Jazz... but now you support Obama... one who supports the murder of the unborn.. one who wants to use my tax dollars to kill babies...one who thinks if an abortion fails and the baby lives that the child should have no rights.. shame on you Donald Miller.
Maybe if you were more "Educated" on the subject you would know that Donald Miller claims neither left or right affiliation. Shame on you Jarchri for ridiculing a man who was given the honor to pray and bring the name of Jesus to the DNC for the first time since the Carter administration. I am Pro Life myself, but that means all life. McCain will not stop the abortion ball from rolling, so we must look to the man who is the biggest advocate for the things that will matter.
Obama, consistently votes to support the murder of infants... what else matters? He also votes that my tax dollars should fund abortion.. MY MONEY!! Obama is evil...seriously evil.... And don't think I'm a McCain fan... I'm not. Neither of them are good options. McCain has his share of issues too.
Don's got guts. He's making a stir and I'm proud of him.
Im not sure its Don's aim in praying at the DNC was to sway people either way (democratic or republican). I see him as bridging the gap, or opening up doors/possibilities that haven't been there before with christians and democrats.
He's had a huge impact on my walk with God. He's a voice for young christians who want to see our american differently. I do not see this prayer as Don endorsing a political party. He prayed
ok, ok I see the other sides point. He references Jesus dying for injustice, rather than sin. But I think you are blowing it out of context. I think DM would agree that Jesus died for our sins, he was just keeping within the theme. does everything have to be about, "repent of your sins, you sinner". maybe it would have been better to close with. "who dies for our sins which brings about injustice" or something like that...thoughts???
Is till think DM is a rad Christian; I was blessed by BLJ
You might want to read some articles that are critical of the "emergent church" movement. It might help you to get a better idea on why this distinction is so very important.
So i started reading "Blue Like Jazz" again, and, Don makes some points in the book about the emergent church and how he does not agree with its teachings. He also makes several references to Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and how we need to repent for forgiveness. Is the real factor that you have lost respect for him, because he is an Obama supporter? I don't even think McCain claims to be a Christian. I have never heard him reference his church or his belief in Jesus as the Son Of God
I am guessing he is. Anyone that has knows and experienced the Gospel would be offended by what the emergent church is spewing. Rob Bell in particular has specifically attacked justification. If we don't have justification in the Cross, there is no forgiveness of sin (see Romans). Remember that God is not only love and grace, but a just judge.
I echo all of Don's sentiments. We probably differ however on how these things are best accomplished. These things can be accomplished through invitation which is voluntary and beautiful, or through force, coercion, and manipulation which is immoral and ugly.
how do u knoe he deos lol pray to someone u cant see is like praying to a dead person theres nothing there. u got a better chance getting results from praying to an apple instead of some figment of an imagination
Oh Lord, we beseech thee to preserve us through four years of Barack Obama or John McCain and a corrupt congress that will do nothing to restrain either of them. Amen.
I agree that 3 pro-abortion supreme court justices were nominated by Republican presidents. It is also true that Democrats controlled the Senate each time. The Kennedy and Souter appointments were soon after Bork was rejected due to the Democrats' pro-abortion litmus test. Democrats sent a message to not send anymore pro-life nominees. Also, Souter has changed over the years. Stevens was appointed by Ford almost 33 years ago so to say that most Republicans candidates are not pro-life is absurd.
As a Bible-believing Christian, I am PRO-LIFE. That means I am against war, against the death penalty, against discrimination, against destroying life on this planet through pollution and oil addiction, in favor of welcoming the alien, and against policies that lead to violence and poverty around the world. Life doesn't begin at conception and end at birth. That's why I support Obama for President. (Matthew Chapters 5 & 25, Luke Chapter 6, Deuteronomy 10:18, etc.)
Jesus did get to the point pretty quickly with people that did not trust in God for their salvation. The woman at the well is a perfect example. Jesus pointed out her personal sin (adultery) so that she could see the need for a saviour. He started the conversation about physical water and quickly transitioned to spiritual water. Check out the book "Way of the Master" by Ray Comfort or search for the audio "Hell's Best Kept Secret" to get a idea of how this can be done today.
The ice breaker of social justice teaming up with the message of the cross to deliver what Jesus lived for (to show people Love through service or some might say social justice) and died for (the sins of the world to rescue us from what we deserve) and now lives again for(so i can have a relationship with Him) wow what a concept.Did ya catch the order of things there? Jesus(#1)washes feet(#2)Dies in my place(#3)lives again because you cant have a relationship with a dead guy.
thule9999 are you still at it my friend? it's like 1 vs 100 on here pal. i think that the time wasted on this could very well be spent on meeting the needs of the least of these so they are more likley to trust in that central point of the Gospel...Gods grace.
It doesn't take much time. Besides, the comments will live a long time here and hopefully will provoke thought for months -- years into the future. Who knows?
I have read Donald Miller's book Blue Like Jazz and agree with him on most issues related to social injustice. However, Miller's book is silent on abortion and he did not mention it in his prayer at the DNC convention even though he is pro-life. He tends to pick and choose social issues that are politically correct which goes against the whole premise of his book. Miller is turning people on to the death party which requires supreme court nominees to pass a litmus test supporting Roe v. Wade.
You do realize it was Republicans who made Roe v. Wade a reality to begin with, right? Look it up. 6 out of the 9 Supreme Court Justices were nominated by Republicans. Currently, 7 out of 9 Justices were nominated by Republicans, yet they are not overturning it. Why not? Because, despite the claims and promises they make when running for office, most Republican candidates are just as pro-choice as their Democratic rivals.
It's about time the left made following Christ official :-) They follow the principles and teachings of Christ more so than the "Christian" Right anyway. Justifying wars, greed, hate, depravation of healthcare, and favoring wealth over poverty sometimes even by using Jesus Christ. At least democratic policies are more selfless. I don't mind paying the extra taxes if they go to universal healthcare, welfare, college funds, public education, and green energy. You go Don!!!!
A Christian doesn't need the government to show their compassion.
You can't measure a person's loyalty to Christian principles by how they vote for social programs. Many people like the accountability that charities have to the people that support them. People also like the ability to choose which charities are effective in their given specialities.
The US is the most charitable nation in the world, we don't need the government to monopolize compassion. I thought monopolies are hated.
I agree. Jesus Christ would not be an advocate in a very earthly self-serving foundation like politics which just proves my point. Out of both sides, the conservative right uses Christianity as a tool more so than any other party. I don't measure person's loyalty to Christian principles by how they vote for social programs, I measure a person's loyalty to how they adhere to the teachings and principles of Jesus Christ. Both sides fall short; but the right wing truly warp the message of Christ.
It is hard to measure a person's faith. There are plenty of hypocrites that go through all the actions that any good and moral person would do. The true test is to find out what drives a person to do good things. Are they doing it because they believe it will get them better standing with God? Clearly that is legalism. Or do they do good things because is simply pleases the God that gave up so much to save them?
As far as politics goes. Any human system will be flawed...
... and therefore no system will live up to our ideals. The Founders (both Christian and Deist) recognised this and wanted to make sure that central government would not have too much power. Neither party is very good at minimizing Federal power these days.
It IS hard to measure someone's faith but when it's blatant, it's as plain as day. Intentions are not everything, the proof is in pudding. When I see Pat Robertson justifying an assassination on network TV, GW Bush saying he prays then bomb innocent people, Falwell blame 9/11 on gays, feminests, the ACLU, ..., These are more than hypocrites, these are immoral people who have missed their own principles. THESE are intentions. A flawed system does not allow immorality to be acceptable.
I think Donald's words were very appropriate for the nation today. America, and the Democratic Party, needs new voices like this - prophetic voices that can see the connection that exists between the social challenges facing the nation and Jesus' call to strive for the Kingdom of God.
Again, I am not saying that the Bible doesn't talk about the poor and being compassionate to them. What I am saying is this modern movement is denying *the* central point of the Gospel and changing it into a socialist movement. The Gospel isn't about socialism. The Gospel is not about social justice. The Gospel is about justification of the sinner. We can stand before God sinless because we trust in the payment of our sins. Not what we have done, but what He has done for us. That is *the* point!
Its not one or the other, but both. Jesus gives his mission statement in Luke 4: to preach good news to the poor, proclaim freedom for prisoners, recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, and to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.
these are physical and they are spiritual. if we agree the central point of scripture is Jesus, or more, if Christ dwells in us, i think he's going to be about the same business we see in scripture.
Jesus did care about the poor, but my point is that is not what the *Cross* was about. Don Miller in his prayer specifically says that Jesus gave His life against the forces of injustice. That is an untrue statement. The Cross *justifies* us before God. The Cross was a propitiation for our sins.
friend, i'm not arguing what Christ's death and resurrection accomplished. i don't think donald miller would either. my question of you is what do we then do with Jesus' life? ignore it? it was the life He lived in service and sacrifice for others that put him on the cross.
if it's just about justification for you, then i pray God uses your passion to reach others for Him. my only request is that you not throw stones or work to divide believers when God reveals Himself to others differently.
I believe Jesus gave his life both against injustice and more specifically for our redemption from sin. We are justified through faith alone, but faith without works is dead. You can't truly be of the Christian faith and NOT work for justice and peace for all. Read Matthew 25.
Unfortunately, these days the word justice means "doing nice things for people." Along with declaring the Gospel to all nations, we are supposed to help the poor. So let's do it! Just don't force others to do it against their will, because that is theft. How we expect their hearts to change? The Gospel!
Even if you think that it is our job to build an Earthly kingdom (I disagree, but that is irrelevant), remember that Jesus said "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"
what concerns me is your definition of *the* central point of the Gospel. Jesus lays out HIS central point, and lays claim to be the fulfillment of prophecy, in Luke 4.
preach good news to the poor, proclaim freedom for prisoners, recovery of sight for the blind, release the oppressed, and proclaim the year of the Lord's favor (JUBILEE)
He wasn't about one or the other. He was about both.
Jesus was the central point of the Gospel, not your small ideas about religious things.
I am very sorry you consider justification a "small idea." You have given me the impression that you don't understand how completely amazing justification is. Justification is so very, very much bigger than any social program we could ever implement, personally or through government. It is unique compared to any religion. Why would you *not* want to communicate this to anyone that is trying to work their way to heaven? We stand condemned under the law. The Gospel frees us from condemnation.
im not interested in arguing theology or programs. the conversation has to be about the person of Jesus. justification, as fantastic as it is, is still only a narrow view of Christ, himself. it's great to be saved FROM something, but what are we saved FOR?
and "work [your] way to heaven?" i really hope you don't mean that. and if we are all waiting around to go to heaven, what do we do with "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven?"
Again, I do believe Jesus was about both. What I am speaking out against is a movement "within" the Christian church that redefines the cross to be exactly what Don Miller said at the end of his prayer. This is not an insignificant thing because it is being used to change the Gospel into social programs. As Christians our ministry to the poor come from the heart, not government. When we do that work, we should be proclaiming the Gospel to all nations.
Jesus is not a Democrat,Republican,Green,Libertarian or anything else, He's not even an American. But Jesus did say blessed are the PEACEMAKERS, he said to remember the poor and needy and weak. He said TO LOVE YOUR ENEMY. We are to work for justice,freedom,peace,equality, This is not to be found in ANY political party (esp. the Dems or Republicans who gave us this war together) but only through individuals who will stand for what is right. Work for peace.
This was might have been Donald Miller's "prayer", but I was a political one. Jesus was never political. He just loved people and fed the poor and led them to God. He never legislated justice; He was justice.
I don't care if Donald Miller wants to chime in on who he's supporting, I just hope he isn't attaching Christianity's name to it.
In conclusion, the Cross is so much it can not be defined in a few paragraphs, it must be exampled and experienced in relationships with each other and with the "I Am"!
It is not that difficult to define. Grace, propitiation, justification. We sin, we deserve death. We cannot do anything good to buy off God. God has a plan (grace). God was punished for our sin (propitiation). We can now stand before God sinless (justification).
It is not that hard to communicate once a person understands that we are all condemned under the law and there is nothing we can do about it. The Gospel is truly good news. Trust in the sacrifice, then, experience God's grace.
I HAVE trusted in the sacrifice and VICTORY of Jesus on the cross.
isnt it possible that we can preach Jesus, crucified, risen again AND preach how Jesus taught us to live UNTIL we get to heaven???
why does it have to be either / or ?
It is as if we preach about Jesus, sing about Him, write books about Him, and "evangelize" on youtube for Him AND YET, have totally no idea what He spent most of the time talking about.
Well, we know He talked about Hell quite a bit. Can we take a queue from that? I am not saying that we scream at people about how they are going to Hell, but it does need to come up at some point. It isn't that hard to explain to some one how Hell is reasonable if God is a just judge. From that it is very easy to explain the Gospel.
Its sad because we fail to miss the simple test for us the Body of Christ. Jesus said for us to love each other by this non-Christians would KNOW that we are Christians. Right now they dont know that. "My people perish for a lack of knowledge" All heaven weeps while millions burn in hell & we are worried about someone praying at the Dems convention. BTW I think the Dems are wrong on everything, but the Church has failed in its mission & for that we will give an account to the Messiah!
One problem is that people in churches don't even know what Christianity is any more. A prayer like the one in this video puts forth the idea that Jesus died for social injustice. A Christian *knows* where their compassion comes from. We were given an *overwhelming* gift of grace. Out of that immeasurable compassion, we in turn show compassion. Theh problem is these days we are embarrassed to say where the compassion comes from because it might sound offensive. A "new" way comes along to "solve"
..this problem. Instead of "solving" the problem it ends up denying what the cross was about! The whole point of the Cross is thrown out the window! To say Jesus died for social injustice is so very small. The gospel is so much greater than that. We don't have to go to hell because our sins are paid for! Trust in that payment, not in humans works.
I think you have misunderstand my comment. I neither agree or disagree with any point made here. The point is that beleivers are even having this discussion is evidence that we are not in unity and we are not about the Fathers Business. Instead we are busy taking jabs at each other. If you go strictly by what the purpose of the Cross is, it is to restore our relationship with the Father and that is evidence by our love for each other. I disagree with the democrats & all they represent, but...
Wow...I read all the comments to follow the thought here. The problem seems simple to me, the Church has built really nice buildings and programs to impress each other. If we were as focused on building relationships with the lost as we were on the next building project someone praying in any public forum would seem completely normal. Instead we (the body of Christ) have relplace relationships with religion. Relationships with both God & man.
the proof is in the action, and the action for the most part has lied dormant over the past 70 to 100 years and its time for the church to wake up and Love unconditionaly, to represent a misrepresented jesus. its not new its the old way resurfacing. Love never fails. my hand is extended to shake yours my friend
i dont think that our message is changing though its just being brought back into the light, like you said genuine chirstians have been feeding people for centuries, because genuine christians follow the example of christ. i think we can both agree though that everyone who says there a christian are not necessiarily.
well i think that through civil debate we have come to the conclusion that our opinions dont really differ that much (thule9999) The cross and hell are very real and it offends me when either are distorted.
homosexual,abortionist,Muslem,Liberal, etc.)is when "Christian" extremist point fingers, blame, and condem. Get in my face and tell me im going to hell, ill walk away and wont give your cross the time a day, get to now me listen to my story, show me your love and justice then the love of Jesus and his justice, and ill be alot more likley to listen.
I agree that just telling a person they are going to hell without any context is unreasonable. But if you take time to explain why hell is reasonable, then the cross and hell makes sense. Christians know more than anyone not to point fingers because they *know* that they should be condemned to hell, but instead were granted grace. We are *not* better, just repentant.
Christians have been feeding people for centuries. Why do we need to change our message to this "new" way?
i really feel that talking to my wall might be more effective right now. let me try to explain once more. it goes with out saying that you "can have a full belly and still go to hell". But where the cross gets lost, is not in social justice, my point actually is that 2 complemet eachother nicely...
You can preach the cross all day to a unbelieving homeless man and still at the end of the day find a closed mind, but give him a cup of cold water or warm meal in Jesus name and watch the doors fly open.its not about having bragging rights at the next bible study on how many "we lead to Jesus".Its about the human soul,meeting the needs of those around us so that the doors to that beautifuly ugly cross can be opened and they can see how much Jesus really loves them.
They can have a full belly and still go to hell. So when you feed them, tell them about the cross. Just don't comprise *the* thing that is about life and death. Christians have been doing this for centuries. Unfortunately this "modern" movement *does* indeed comprise justification and replaces it with social justice. It is so week compared to what justification really is about.
I dont think anyone, here anyway, is undermining what Jesus did for us on the cross... he took all of our sins. ALL OF THEM. including those which get swept under the carpet like hearing and not doing. I agree whole heartedly that there is nothing we could have done to save our selves, but we are called now to be the hands and feet of Jesus.
Why does the audio mute at 1:49 for a few seconds? Thanks Donald so much for Blue like Jazz
renindy 5 months ago
Though he may have prayed this sincerely, it is a "prayer" tacking God on his agenda. Born again believers are called to take care of the orphans and widows, not a political party. And Christians are called to preach the Gospel, make disciples, and grow in holiness, not attach themselves to either political party. And the heart of Americans without salvation in Christ is desperately wicked according to the Bible. Don is about a social gospel along the lines of Rick Warren & Bill Hybels.
2timothy23 6 months ago
wonderful... Proper way to close a prayer too!
megaead69 11 months ago
these dems look like they have headaches when they pray
PieRatJack 1 year ago
Don, really? I love you and your books, but this "prayer" goes against everything you say about authenticism. This was no prayer. Even if I agreed with it. This was a speech. Just make a speech if you want to, but don't hide behind a "prayer."
theosmaximus 1 year ago 5
@theosmaximus not sure thats fair! ever think that he may have prayed it authentically as he wrote the prayer and just delivered it this way? i see where you are coming from but feel that comment was a little harsh.
rossyboycampbell 8 months ago
@theosmaximus not sure thats fair! ever think that he may have prayed it authentically as he wrote the prayer and just delivered it this way? i see where you are coming from but feel that comment was a little harsh.
rossyboycampbell 8 months ago
@theosmaximus Is he reading a teleprompter? I like Don, but this makes me feel a little icky.
delilahmrso 5 months ago
@theosmaximus its because Don Miller is about as much a Christian as Judas was....
polycarp256 3 months ago
Being a liberal and a christian shows either a fundamental misunderstanding of either liberalism or christianity.
wohs145 1 year ago
@wohs145 Eh, most liberal ideas are social and economical, NOT moral. I am a Christian, and I stand against MORAL issues, such as abortion and gay marraige. I defend what the bible has to say about that. But when it comes to economics, I think there is nothing un-christian about supporting certain liberal ideas. In fact, in a few cases, the democrats have behaved more like Christians than the Republicans.
elijahsnyder 8 months ago
@elijahsnyder Like I said, it sounds like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of either liberalism or christianity. Nothing you said challenges my initial statement.
wohs145 8 months ago
@wohs145 you must not know Christianity then. For people like me and people like Don, we care about more things other than gay marriage and abortion. We care about people getting health care and social programs to help the poor. The Republican Party has constantly ignored their duty to give a crap about anyone else but the rich, and that's why I chose to leave and haven't looked back since.
krishansonlovesyou 5 months ago
@krishansonlovesyou So you think that using violent force to obtain funding for misplaced and ultimately ineffective "philanthropy" is the best way to serve the poor?
wohs145 5 months ago
@wohs145 i didn't know taxation was violent. gosh, you're paranoid.
krishansonlovesyou 5 months ago
@krishansonlovesyou Its not a matter of paranoia... what do you think will happen if you don't pay your taxes? They'll come, with guns, and take you to jail, by force. Taxation is predicated on the threat of force/violence. Its not conspiratorial, its just a fact.
wohs145 5 months ago
@wohs145 oh my gosh. you're truly brainwashed. Jesus was never against taxation. Guess what. If Ron Paul or Rick Perry were president, it'd still be illegal to not pay taxes. 9 out of the top 10 states with the highest amount of poverty is run by conservatives and 8 out of the 10 states with the lowest amount of poverty is run by democrats. So yes, our "philanthropy" is effective. And it's a hell of a lot better than the Republicans definition of "philanthropy": doing absolutely nothing.
krishansonlovesyou 5 months ago
@krishansonlovesyou I'm not brainwashed, and I dont know why youre in such a tizzy. I also don't know why you cant see past party lines. Who said anything about Rick Perry, Ron Paul, the GOP or the Democratic Party? I certainly didn't. Youre arguing against someone who isn't here, and for some reason youre pissed about it. Chill. Read some Tolstoy. Maybe some Rothbard. I dunno. Maybe you just need a brew. Or a hug, or a EBT card or something. Relax.
wohs145 5 months ago
AMEN>>>>> Never hear this From FOX
basejumpin1 1 year ago
You're all haters. Donald Miller is the most amazing spiritual author and speaker. He approaches things with such an open mind and more than anything else, he's tolerant. He understands people, and he has so much compassion. I'm SO thankful for Donald Miller's book Blue Like Jazz. He speaks the truth. Lastly, I'm glad he's not just another person who claims to be Christian and gives into the Republican party. His reasons for supporting Obama are legitimate. Miller is a role-model. bitches.
thtswhtshsd 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
fuck him
georgel19841 2 years ago
Against the forces of injustice? Has Donald Miller even read the Bible? Christ died to cleanse us of sin. Injustice is only a byproduct of sin.
GushervonMusher 2 years ago
yeah i definately agree with jakethespud, well for the most part. in Blue Like Jazz you have to stop and think about some of the chapters and you can never just stop reading if your not at the end of a chapter. ps. idk why but I always imagined him skinny but it looks like he has not always been that way. the only reason it bothers me is because i don't know how to imagine him throughout the book(because of all the different time periods
amixofmany 2 years ago
Wow Donald looks really good. He lost a lot of weight! Good for him!
andie20 2 years ago
The most interesting part of this sermon/prayer is that he has definitely lost a lot of weight. He was a sloppy mess five years ago.
sluebke1 2 years ago
mhm, he sure was.
TpyoQueen 1 year ago
I didn't know that liberals believed in god.
vmahodge 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Indeed they do.
you might not have known this to be true because unlike many christian conservatives, liberals respect individual opinion and belief instead of cramming the words of "jesus christ" down your throat.
WakeUpRiseAbove 2 years ago
Shame on those Christian conservatives for asserting their individual opinion! Shame!
ibepresodent 2 years ago
Shame on you for asserting your opinion that certain other people shouldn't assert their opinions.
SobrietySobriquet 2 years ago
Lol, don't make this juvenile.
ibepresodent 2 years ago
Nice concession.
SobrietySobriquet 2 years ago
Donald Miller changed my life with Blue Like Jazz. Now I really want to meet him, we would get along just fine.
thefaselerkid 3 years ago 8
Blue Like Jazz was an amazing book and is what made me start to realize that you don't have to be politically conservative to be a Christian
BRunk84 2 years ago 2
I just started reading "Searching for God Knows What" by this guy and it's such a good book!
irishaggie2004 3 years ago
I finally finished "Searching..." after over four months of reading it. I felt that I needed to take a break after each chapter to digest the thought morsel I consumed. It is truly a stirring work.
"Blue Like Jazz" was much more anecdotal.
Both were well written!
jakethespud 2 years ago 4
i wonder how many democrats actually believe in god
jimmbo13 3 years ago
quite a few actually, many Democratic principles are much more in line with the Bible than the GOP.
BRunk84 3 years ago 4
I agree... There is a lot of propaganda that democrats are anti-God or something throughout the South, where a large population of Republican-voting "conservatives" reside... Not to disrespect the Church in the South, but the fact is that many believers attepmt to add political values to Christian doctrine, which is simply not Biblical. I will vote for who I think will to the best job in office, and I don't claim to be liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican. Why limit yourself to that?
madhouse2009 2 years ago
Amen brother! I know what your saying,I live in Texas and went to a Bible college, so you can imagine my perspective on that LOL. there were probably like 10 democrats out of 1500 people that went to the school.
BRunk84 2 years ago
madhouse2009 I totally agree. I live in South Carolina and I went to a Catholic high school, and they considered it a sin to vote for Obama. I'm not a Democrat, but I understand that church should not embrace a particular party it was never meant to. It seems like they make Christianity more about social issues instead of spreading and teaching the Good Word.
asianmetalhead07 2 years ago 2
Oh don't get me wrong. Social issues are very important. One of the current issues that is very close to my heart is the crisis in Darfur. It's awful!
What is wrong is trusting in Government when our whole trust should be in God alone. People can vote for whoever they like, but God is still sovereign, and he appoints government rulers for his purposes. We should leave the political partisanship to conversation and focus on more useful topics (such as the power of prayer) from the pulpit.
madhouse2009 2 years ago
I agree, but I also think that Don is a prayerful person. After reading his books and seeing him speak in person, I can only assume that he agreed to be there because God wanted him to be. I truely believe that God has put him in the special place in his "popularity" so that HE (God) can use him in a special way.
But, at the same time, if he did do this as a "Political Boost for Jesus" then I completely agree with you.
ITSBEKAH 2 years ago 2
did he write Blue Like Jazz?!?? WHAT?? He did lose a lot of weight then. I'm not calling him fat, but if that's him I don't recognize him!
saranghaeyo2326 3 years ago
Ya he did loose a lot of weight...really incrediable actually...he looks like the winner of the biggest loser
odedonapathy4 3 years ago
Good! Then there is hope for me! -Arroyo-
arroyomusic 3 years ago
1 Timothy 2:1-4 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
GamerJ5 3 years ago
Good job Don. Too bad everyone here is going to spend the next year arguing about who the poor are...oh well...
natekyra 3 years ago
I know a lot of people who get really mad when ever a pastor or some church leader endorces a Republican (which I am against). But when some one supports a democrat it's not endorcement, it's being open minded. I like what my pastor said "Just vote the Gosple." meaning vote as God leads you, not man.
JaJaBr89 3 years ago 2
Amen JajaBr89 That' exactly as we all should do. As God lead, NOT MAN.
whomtheSonsetsfree 3 years ago
It's too bad that Donald couldn't include "the unborn" in his list of "the least of these" in his prayer. If Democrat leadership was really interested in reducing the number of abortions in this country, he should've been free to say that, but we all know that had he done that, he would've been booed off that stage.
harriswhistles 3 years ago 2
Did anyone notice the long pause 1:44-1:56? He released a print version of what he had written a few days before hand and right after he says, "Will you give us favor and forgiveness," he's supposed to continue, "along with our allies around the world. Help us be an example of humility and strength once again." Despite his being censored, I can't help but applaud "Amen" to the gospel being proclaimed and the Lord's guidance being invoked at the DNC.
cukoo4cocopuffs9 3 years ago
Well said Don, well said...
YogiDadi 3 years ago
Miller, your the man.
ziggazig777 3 years ago
Nice.
Speaking on behalf of the party that does everything it can to demean Christianity, support perverse actions, and promote the belief that charity isn't I give to someone in need, but I take from someone else and give to someone else.
Nice. Support thievery, debauchery, and wickedness all in the name of God.
ntbcbilly 3 years ago
As opposed to the republicans who war with nations that believe differently and have oil? How about we pray for our country and not fight over who is or isn't christian. Didn't Jesus eat and pray with the debauchees and thieves and wicked?
silentscreams81 3 years ago
This was supposed to be for ntbcbilly
silentscreams81 3 years ago
Rms 13:3-5
ntbcbilly 3 years ago
Well. I am a libertarian. Slight difference.
But I do support war against tyrants. The same people who will cry that we are not doing enough to help the poor people in Africa who are being raped and pillaged will decry that we are doing wrong in Afgan. and Iraq.
Tell me of one drop of oil that we have not paid for and I will kiss you feet. Why? Because there hasn't been profit for this country.
Jesus did eat with them. And so do I. But God placed gov't in order to restrain wickedns
ntbcbilly 3 years ago
There hasn't been profit for this country? Chevron made $18.7 billion in profits. My problem with Iraq is that there isn't any resolution in sight. The destructor should never be the rebuilder. David couldn't be the builder of the temple because to much blood was on his hands, and his son was to build the temple. Jesus never followed politcs, he just loved and healed people, as we should I think. I think the whole system needs reform, but it will start with us, not the president.
silentscreams81 3 years ago
Also, The comment about us dealing with other countries like Iraq and Afghan and Africa is that we have enough poor and poverty stricken in our own country. Isn't there a verse about before you can lead others, your house has to be in order? Well, our house isn't in order and it gets worse everyday. We need to deal with our problems before we deal with other's.
silentscreams81 3 years ago
"poor" is a relative term. most of the "poor" in the US have a tv, shoes on their feet, and cannot be refused medical care because they don't have insurance. many of the "poor" in countries in Africa are dying of starvation, easily treatable diseases, and only dream of the rights we enjoy as Americans. Let's put things into perspective.
SheaDenise 3 years ago
...perspective. I take it you haven't been to the homeless shelter in your city recently. Or the projects. I never said America shouldn't help, but our situation isn't much better on some accounts. We should be helping everyone in need, but we need to show that we care, how can other countries see that we care about them when our homeless die in the streets?
silentscreams81 3 years ago
People with Retirement plans are the shareholders. I own Chevron (part of it). So you are wrong on Iraq. You are wrong on the 'poor' in America. But you are right. It does start with us. And again; the U.S. gives more charity to the world than any other country (privately and publicly) than any other nation in the history of the world. Our monies should not be tied up in the bureaucracy of the Gov't. Somehow we think that if we give away money as given through the gov't it is efficient
ntbcbilly 3 years ago
So you own part of Chevron. Have you been to a shareholders meeting? Chevron profits jumped $220.9 billion. And let me ask, how much of that did you profit? A few pennies a share? Who got that money? The ceo. This dude is raking in the money. $15 million as a compensation package, and you think you own the company. I would be interested to know who really holds the majority of the stock.
silentscreams81 3 years ago
If Jesus never followed politics (which is a presupposition I agree with), when why is Mr. Miller at the DNC?
The 'poorest' people in the US live better than the kings of the past. By Far. They have more entertainment, nutrition, and ability to ascend financially moreso than any in history.
No Solution? Someone hasn't been paying attention as we have been taking our hands off and the locals have been becoming the peacemakers.
Who own Chevron? Shareholders. Who are the shareholders?
ntbcbilly 3 years ago
Who says the democrats don't need prayer? Maybe the dude likes Obama as a friend...maybe Donald is like the rest of America and is tired of George's tyranny? Or maybe, he was invited to pray, and he said yes, because our politicians need to be prayed for, and he could give a flying flip about them. Honestly, I don't know why he is there, but just because Jesus didn't involve himself in politics doesn't mean he didn't pray for the politicians.
silentscreams81 3 years ago
i agree with the first part of your statement, i was slightly disappointed to hear that he was at the convention, because his book is so good. Im not against it i was just suprised.
TheRudy1988 3 years ago
Don't hate the player, hate the game! This is a nation that is comprised of a bunch of people who love Jesus. You exist because of His love. Be glad that someone is praying for you and our country. You have the freedom to voice your opinion, because of God, the Father of Jesus. He sent His son because He knew that you would make crazy comments and wouldn't understand His love, but know this His love is big and you can't say that you never heard it before, when you're asked.
Raindwops 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Dear invisible Daddy in the sky,
Please eradicate religion in all its forms from our political proceedings, so that those in power may no longer lean on archaic and irrelevant systems of belief rather than effect real, tangible change in our country. Amen.
PS- Stay classy.
sheridanb 3 years ago
As if politics itself has really brought about much "real, tangible change"?
This nation should've addressed greenhouse gas emissions and oil consumption/conservation 15 years ago. Abnormally low food prices (due to the illegal and unfair wages paid to undocumented workers) should've been addressed decades ago. The politicians were not bowing to God, but to economics and the selfish American consumer. You have a lame argument.
mtshowman 3 years ago
Nowhere in my post did I claim that religion is the sole cause of our government's inefficacy. What I wrote was merely a response to seeing a prayer being told at a major politicial event. Certainly though, it doesn't help that a lot of these people's heads are up in the clouds with Jesus instead of down here with the American people, or that their attitudes towards the things you mentioned are largely informed by a "It doesn't matter anyway because the Rapture is coming soon" mentality.
sheridanb 3 years ago
What you need to understand is that those who really have their "heads up in the clouds with Jesus" so to speak are the people who are out and helping the poor, hungry, battered, lonely, and afraid in the world (not the only people OF COURSE, you don't have to be a Christian to do these things)All I am trying to say is that real followers of Jesus will have a passion for those less fortunate than them. It is the most important thing Jesus spoke of during his life.
bwwardiii 3 years ago
(continued)... If you are making the assumption that many Christians seem too concerned with themselves than others, you may have an argument, but if you're saying Christians are largely void of intellect then you are ignorant of one of the largest religions in the world. I can't say your view is an uncommon one or not worth discussion, argument, or debate. I just want to inject a little more understanding into a discussion that I thought might appreciate it.
bwwardiii 3 years ago
Who says that a speech can't be a prayer in and of itself?
coolbeenz17 3 years ago
Prayer is how we talk with God.
Our society has deemed all these rules. That we have to close our eyes and bow our heads and click our heels and eat fire before God will listen to us.
When Jesus died and rose again, every single rule about how we should pray went out the window. There is freedom in Jesus.
So to say that he isn't really praying is very bold. Even if he did write it out beforehand, it doesn't change God's desire to listen to us...
coolbeenz17 3 years ago
The issue here is not the FORM of prayer. It's whether the closing was a prayer or a speech. I suppose I would rather it had been a speech, as I don't like to see true prayer exist in jeopardy of being politicized. Of COURSE he had to open his eyes...he was READING. PS I raised the ire of another reader by saying, "I KNOW prayer". That was a play on an '88 political statement. If you don't know the reference, I admit it sounded arrogant and I understand their heated reaction. I apologize.
rkamrath 3 years ago
I agree that DM doesn't really claim left or right affiliation, and I applaud him for it. I don't think God cares if your Democratic, Republican, Liberal, or Conservative. What matters is love. Donald Miller stood up there showing the DNC and everyone watching at home courage and commitment. The only reason for Christianity being "used" is because its not a minority anymore. Theres a growing number of Christians and this party is simply affiliating itself with a more specified general public.
knowltonjl 3 years ago
Considering its only a matter of opinion, I beleive that Donald Miller didn't lose anything. It was a simple prayer, he wasn't writing a book standing up there, which I found refreshing to the likes of our "generation". If you had read any of his books you would know that he doesn't like crowds, especially speaking to them. I'd be too nervous to lead prayer for that many people too...give me a teleprompter!
knowltonjl 3 years ago
I'm disappointed in Miller's ... uh... prayer. Kind of sounded like a political speech at best, pandering at worst. Doesn't seem like the guy who wrote those books; he WAS reading it off the teleprompter, right? And just so you know, I didn't like the Republican one either. I'm not sure what he got from doing this gig, 'cause I think I know prayer, and... well... sorry. Really, it wouldn't have bothered me at all except I really thought a lot of him until this. Oh well...
rkamrath 3 years ago
im dissappointed in this ...uh...comment. Who are you to approve prayers? since you know prayer so much, you'd figure that you, being such a wise person, would realize that a prayer is a conversation with God.But, im sure that if miller knew there was a prayer nazi out there he would have ran it by you first. ya think you could be at my house for thanksgiving this year? I'd like to have my grandfathers prayer approved before he prays over dinner. Oh well...
time2mend 3 years ago
Finally...some one with a brain in their head! :)
time2mend 3 years ago
"finally...someone with a brain in their head!" that comment was intended for knowltonjl btw.
time2mend 3 years ago
Wow... down boy. I would never criticize somebody's conversation with God. Which is why I can be critical of what happened at the end of both conventions. Do you realize that some programs don't even attempt to call them "prayer"? You've realized, haven't you, that these things are strategically planned by organizers who don't take a break when the minister comes out to pray? Donald was "used", willingly, and I'm still disappointed..
rkamrath 3 years ago
ugg!!!you people frustrate me so much! it is ignorant to say that miller has lost any voice he had to your generation! if anything He gained a voice to your generation! now if your refering to the stonch religious right, he may have lost them, but you guys have it all together anyway right? but i guess Paul was ridiculed too for taking Jesus name into places where he was needed most. pull your heads out of your pharisee butts,wipe the crap from your eyes, and ask yourself where would Jesus pray!
time2mend 3 years ago
I loved "Blue Like Jazz", but seeing this makes me sick to my stomach. Unfortunately Miller just "jumped the shark" and lost any voice he had to my generation.
michaelshive 3 years ago
Didn't lose his voice to me, and I suspect that I'm part of your generation.
tacfvideo 3 years ago
Wow! The Democratic Party used to understand the need for church/state separation and didn't believe in gov't favoring one religion's beliefs. Now even the Democrats seek to demolish religious freedom by promoting Christianity over all other beliefs. It's amazing that people don't realize they can believe in a god in the way they want because we have kept religion and gov't separate--that's what gives people their religious freedom. Let ONE sect or religion gain control and that freedom is gone.
ihearu2 3 years ago
Do you really see this as dissolving the separation of church and state? That seems absurd to me. Don't you realize that to not mention God or Allah or Buddha is to promote the church of paganism above all other religions?
leebowatkins 3 years ago
#1 re: leebowatkins's "church of paganism"
Oh. I'm sorry. I listened to it a couple of times and still missed the part where he mentioned Allah and Buddha. He did mention Jesus, though. Were there other prayers during the convention, too, where they made sure to mention Allah and Buddha and where a Jew comes up & negates belief in Jesus? I just don't get how most Americans don't see that the Democratic party began pandering to the religious wrong to win votes.
ihearu2 3 years ago
#2 re: "church of paganism"
And I never said anything about Obama not being able to mention his personal beliefs, but he (and Hillary did, too) goes out of his way to bring up religion to the point where the Democratic Party is participating in religious debates and avoiding debates of substance, while making sure to exclude other candidates from debates to keep it a 2-party race. (Which they're able to do because the Democratics & Republicans own the Commission on Presidential Debates)
ihearu2 3 years ago
Voting and supporting one who supports murdering infants is the same as doing it yourself! THINK PEOPLE!! Nothing else matters!!! Education? are you serious!!! 40 million babies!!!!!!! No war has ever even touched the Halocaust of 40 million babies!!!
jarchri 3 years ago
Donald MIller.... I loved Blue LIke Jazz... but now you support Obama... one who supports the murder of the unborn.. one who wants to use my tax dollars to kill babies...one who thinks if an abortion fails and the baby lives that the child should have no rights.. shame on you Donald Miller.
jarchri 3 years ago
Maybe if you were more "Educated" on the subject you would know that Donald Miller claims neither left or right affiliation. Shame on you Jarchri for ridiculing a man who was given the honor to pray and bring the name of Jesus to the DNC for the first time since the Carter administration. I am Pro Life myself, but that means all life. McCain will not stop the abortion ball from rolling, so we must look to the man who is the biggest advocate for the things that will matter.
time2mend 3 years ago
Obama, consistently votes to support the murder of infants... what else matters? He also votes that my tax dollars should fund abortion.. MY MONEY!! Obama is evil...seriously evil.... And don't think I'm a McCain fan... I'm not. Neither of them are good options. McCain has his share of issues too.
jarchri 3 years ago
Don's got guts. He's making a stir and I'm proud of him.
Im not sure its Don's aim in praying at the DNC was to sway people either way (democratic or republican). I see him as bridging the gap, or opening up doors/possibilities that haven't been there before with christians and democrats.
He's had a huge impact on my walk with God. He's a voice for young christians who want to see our american differently. I do not see this prayer as Don endorsing a political party. He prayed
dncnnanci5 3 years ago
How come part of this was silented?
gangstajforeal 3 years ago
The C-SPAN feed went silent at that point. Evidently other networks didn't lose the sound.
Cest la vie.
notwhationceknew 3 years ago
ok, ok I see the other sides point. He references Jesus dying for injustice, rather than sin. But I think you are blowing it out of context. I think DM would agree that Jesus died for our sins, he was just keeping within the theme. does everything have to be about, "repent of your sins, you sinner". maybe it would have been better to close with. "who dies for our sins which brings about injustice" or something like that...thoughts???
Is till think DM is a rad Christian; I was blessed by BLJ
pears009 3 years ago
You might want to read some articles that are critical of the "emergent church" movement. It might help you to get a better idea on why this distinction is so very important.
thule9999 3 years ago
So i started reading "Blue Like Jazz" again, and, Don makes some points in the book about the emergent church and how he does not agree with its teachings. He also makes several references to Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and how we need to repent for forgiveness. Is the real factor that you have lost respect for him, because he is an Obama supporter? I don't even think McCain claims to be a Christian. I have never heard him reference his church or his belief in Jesus as the Son Of God
pears009 3 years ago
I have a question for billiefan2000.....Are you a Christian?
Nottawannabe 3 years ago
I am guessing he is. Anyone that has knows and experienced the Gospel would be offended by what the emergent church is spewing. Rob Bell in particular has specifically attacked justification. If we don't have justification in the Cross, there is no forgiveness of sin (see Romans). Remember that God is not only love and grace, but a just judge.
thule9999 3 years ago
I echo all of Don's sentiments. We probably differ however on how these things are best accomplished. These things can be accomplished through invitation which is voluntary and beautiful, or through force, coercion, and manipulation which is immoral and ugly.
vaporbailey 3 years ago
watch?v=1UEOZGFzPas
bostonianbobbie 3 years ago
horrible
, like a subliminal message
uncletree 3 years ago
thats cute hes prayering to someone who deosnt exsist
Fivestar5000 3 years ago
how do you know that the "someone" you claim he's praying to does not exist?
LITTLER0CKAR 3 years ago
how do u knoe he deos lol pray to someone u cant see is like praying to a dead person theres nothing there. u got a better chance getting results from praying to an apple instead of some figment of an imagination
Fivestar5000 3 years ago
watch?v=1UEOZGFzPas
dynamitedoggydog 3 years ago
Oh Lord, we beseech thee to preserve us through four years of Barack Obama or John McCain and a corrupt congress that will do nothing to restrain either of them. Amen.
JiveDadson 3 years ago 3
hahaha. weren't these dolts complaining that bush was too religious?
dquijano 3 years ago 3
im wondering how my comment from this am disappeared.
gleadley 3 years ago
(my last comment was made in response to photography4me, by the way)
Lifehearted 3 years ago
I agree that 3 pro-abortion supreme court justices were nominated by Republican presidents. It is also true that Democrats controlled the Senate each time. The Kennedy and Souter appointments were soon after Bork was rejected due to the Democrats' pro-abortion litmus test. Democrats sent a message to not send anymore pro-life nominees. Also, Souter has changed over the years. Stevens was appointed by Ford almost 33 years ago so to say that most Republicans candidates are not pro-life is absurd.
Lifehearted 3 years ago
As a Bible-believing Christian, I am PRO-LIFE. That means I am against war, against the death penalty, against discrimination, against destroying life on this planet through pollution and oil addiction, in favor of welcoming the alien, and against policies that lead to violence and poverty around the world. Life doesn't begin at conception and end at birth. That's why I support Obama for President. (Matthew Chapters 5 & 25, Luke Chapter 6, Deuteronomy 10:18, etc.)
deritastudio 3 years ago
Maybe we should deliver the message in the same order that he lived it?
time2mend 3 years ago
Jesus did get to the point pretty quickly with people that did not trust in God for their salvation. The woman at the well is a perfect example. Jesus pointed out her personal sin (adultery) so that she could see the need for a saviour. He started the conversation about physical water and quickly transitioned to spiritual water. Check out the book "Way of the Master" by Ray Comfort or search for the audio "Hell's Best Kept Secret" to get a idea of how this can be done today.
thule9999 3 years ago
The ice breaker of social justice teaming up with the message of the cross to deliver what Jesus lived for (to show people Love through service or some might say social justice) and died for (the sins of the world to rescue us from what we deserve) and now lives again for(so i can have a relationship with Him) wow what a concept.Did ya catch the order of things there? Jesus(#1)washes feet(#2)Dies in my place(#3)lives again because you cant have a relationship with a dead guy.
time2mend 3 years ago
thule9999 are you still at it my friend? it's like 1 vs 100 on here pal. i think that the time wasted on this could very well be spent on meeting the needs of the least of these so they are more likley to trust in that central point of the Gospel...Gods grace.
time2mend 3 years ago
It doesn't take much time. Besides, the comments will live a long time here and hopefully will provoke thought for months -- years into the future. Who knows?
thule9999 3 years ago
I have read Donald Miller's book Blue Like Jazz and agree with him on most issues related to social injustice. However, Miller's book is silent on abortion and he did not mention it in his prayer at the DNC convention even though he is pro-life. He tends to pick and choose social issues that are politically correct which goes against the whole premise of his book. Miller is turning people on to the death party which requires supreme court nominees to pass a litmus test supporting Roe v. Wade.
Lifehearted 3 years ago
You do realize it was Republicans who made Roe v. Wade a reality to begin with, right? Look it up. 6 out of the 9 Supreme Court Justices were nominated by Republicans. Currently, 7 out of 9 Justices were nominated by Republicans, yet they are not overturning it. Why not? Because, despite the claims and promises they make when running for office, most Republican candidates are just as pro-choice as their Democratic rivals.
photography4me 3 years ago
(my last comment was made in response to Lifehearted, by the way)
photography4me 3 years ago
It's about time the left made following Christ official :-) They follow the principles and teachings of Christ more so than the "Christian" Right anyway. Justifying wars, greed, hate, depravation of healthcare, and favoring wealth over poverty sometimes even by using Jesus Christ. At least democratic policies are more selfless. I don't mind paying the extra taxes if they go to universal healthcare, welfare, college funds, public education, and green energy. You go Don!!!!
TheGlassPriest 3 years ago
A Christian doesn't need the government to show their compassion.
You can't measure a person's loyalty to Christian principles by how they vote for social programs. Many people like the accountability that charities have to the people that support them. People also like the ability to choose which charities are effective in their given specialities.
The US is the most charitable nation in the world, we don't need the government to monopolize compassion. I thought monopolies are hated.
thule9999 3 years ago
I agree. Jesus Christ would not be an advocate in a very earthly self-serving foundation like politics which just proves my point. Out of both sides, the conservative right uses Christianity as a tool more so than any other party. I don't measure person's loyalty to Christian principles by how they vote for social programs, I measure a person's loyalty to how they adhere to the teachings and principles of Jesus Christ. Both sides fall short; but the right wing truly warp the message of Christ.
TheGlassPriest 3 years ago
It is hard to measure a person's faith. There are plenty of hypocrites that go through all the actions that any good and moral person would do. The true test is to find out what drives a person to do good things. Are they doing it because they believe it will get them better standing with God? Clearly that is legalism. Or do they do good things because is simply pleases the God that gave up so much to save them?
As far as politics goes. Any human system will be flawed...
thule9999 3 years ago
... and therefore no system will live up to our ideals. The Founders (both Christian and Deist) recognised this and wanted to make sure that central government would not have too much power. Neither party is very good at minimizing Federal power these days.
thule9999 3 years ago
It IS hard to measure someone's faith but when it's blatant, it's as plain as day. Intentions are not everything, the proof is in pudding. When I see Pat Robertson justifying an assassination on network TV, GW Bush saying he prays then bomb innocent people, Falwell blame 9/11 on gays, feminests, the ACLU, ..., These are more than hypocrites, these are immoral people who have missed their own principles. THESE are intentions. A flawed system does not allow immorality to be acceptable.
TheGlassPriest 3 years ago
DON HAS LOST SO MUCH WEIGHT!
l0vewins 3 years ago
I think Donald's words were very appropriate for the nation today. America, and the Democratic Party, needs new voices like this - prophetic voices that can see the connection that exists between the social challenges facing the nation and Jesus' call to strive for the Kingdom of God.
riyehn 3 years ago
some of these comments make me wonder if christians have EVER read the Old Testament prophets!
care for the widows!!! gasp! being a prophetic voice against greed and economic injustice!!!! shock!!!
scottnjaime 3 years ago
Again, I am not saying that the Bible doesn't talk about the poor and being compassionate to them. What I am saying is this modern movement is denying *the* central point of the Gospel and changing it into a socialist movement. The Gospel isn't about socialism. The Gospel is not about social justice. The Gospel is about justification of the sinner. We can stand before God sinless because we trust in the payment of our sins. Not what we have done, but what He has done for us. That is *the* point!
thule9999 3 years ago
Its not one or the other, but both. Jesus gives his mission statement in Luke 4: to preach good news to the poor, proclaim freedom for prisoners, recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, and to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.
these are physical and they are spiritual. if we agree the central point of scripture is Jesus, or more, if Christ dwells in us, i think he's going to be about the same business we see in scripture.
Jesus was ABSOLUTELY about social justice.
gleadley 3 years ago
Jesus did care about the poor, but my point is that is not what the *Cross* was about. Don Miller in his prayer specifically says that Jesus gave His life against the forces of injustice. That is an untrue statement. The Cross *justifies* us before God. The Cross was a propitiation for our sins.
thule9999 3 years ago
friend, i'm not arguing what Christ's death and resurrection accomplished. i don't think donald miller would either. my question of you is what do we then do with Jesus' life? ignore it? it was the life He lived in service and sacrifice for others that put him on the cross.
if it's just about justification for you, then i pray God uses your passion to reach others for Him. my only request is that you not throw stones or work to divide believers when God reveals Himself to others differently.
gleadley 3 years ago
I believe Jesus gave his life both against injustice and more specifically for our redemption from sin. We are justified through faith alone, but faith without works is dead. You can't truly be of the Christian faith and NOT work for justice and peace for all. Read Matthew 25.
deritastudio 3 years ago
Unfortunately, these days the word justice means "doing nice things for people." Along with declaring the Gospel to all nations, we are supposed to help the poor. So let's do it! Just don't force others to do it against their will, because that is theft. How we expect their hearts to change? The Gospel!
Even if you think that it is our job to build an Earthly kingdom (I disagree, but that is irrelevant), remember that Jesus said "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"
thule9999 3 years ago
what concerns me is your definition of *the* central point of the Gospel. Jesus lays out HIS central point, and lays claim to be the fulfillment of prophecy, in Luke 4.
preach good news to the poor, proclaim freedom for prisoners, recovery of sight for the blind, release the oppressed, and proclaim the year of the Lord's favor (JUBILEE)
He wasn't about one or the other. He was about both.
Jesus was the central point of the Gospel, not your small ideas about religious things.
gleadley 3 years ago
I am very sorry you consider justification a "small idea." You have given me the impression that you don't understand how completely amazing justification is. Justification is so very, very much bigger than any social program we could ever implement, personally or through government. It is unique compared to any religion. Why would you *not* want to communicate this to anyone that is trying to work their way to heaven? We stand condemned under the law. The Gospel frees us from condemnation.
thule9999 3 years ago 2
im not interested in arguing theology or programs. the conversation has to be about the person of Jesus. justification, as fantastic as it is, is still only a narrow view of Christ, himself. it's great to be saved FROM something, but what are we saved FOR?
and "work [your] way to heaven?" i really hope you don't mean that. and if we are all waiting around to go to heaven, what do we do with "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven?"
gleadley 3 years ago
Again, I do believe Jesus was about both. What I am speaking out against is a movement "within" the Christian church that redefines the cross to be exactly what Don Miller said at the end of his prayer. This is not an insignificant thing because it is being used to change the Gospel into social programs. As Christians our ministry to the poor come from the heart, not government. When we do that work, we should be proclaiming the Gospel to all nations.
thule9999 3 years ago
donald miller and the emergent church equals
2 timothy 4:3-4
billiefan2000 3 years ago
Absolutely.
thule9999 3 years ago
Jesus is not a Democrat,Republican,Green,Libertarian or anything else, He's not even an American. But Jesus did say blessed are the PEACEMAKERS, he said to remember the poor and needy and weak. He said TO LOVE YOUR ENEMY. We are to work for justice,freedom,peace,equality, This is not to be found in ANY political party (esp. the Dems or Republicans who gave us this war together) but only through individuals who will stand for what is right. Work for peace.
1 Cor. 10:31
boomac62 3 years ago 2
This was might have been Donald Miller's "prayer", but I was a political one. Jesus was never political. He just loved people and fed the poor and led them to God. He never legislated justice; He was justice.
I don't care if Donald Miller wants to chime in on who he's supporting, I just hope he isn't attaching Christianity's name to it.
spiritmn77 3 years ago
In conclusion, the Cross is so much it can not be defined in a few paragraphs, it must be exampled and experienced in relationships with each other and with the "I Am"!
anishemaya 3 years ago
It is not that difficult to define. Grace, propitiation, justification. We sin, we deserve death. We cannot do anything good to buy off God. God has a plan (grace). God was punished for our sin (propitiation). We can now stand before God sinless (justification).
It is not that hard to communicate once a person understands that we are all condemned under the law and there is nothing we can do about it. The Gospel is truly good news. Trust in the sacrifice, then, experience God's grace.
thule9999 3 years ago
I HAVE trusted in the sacrifice and VICTORY of Jesus on the cross.
isnt it possible that we can preach Jesus, crucified, risen again AND preach how Jesus taught us to live UNTIL we get to heaven???
why does it have to be either / or ?
It is as if we preach about Jesus, sing about Him, write books about Him, and "evangelize" on youtube for Him AND YET, have totally no idea what He spent most of the time talking about.
scottnjaime 3 years ago
Well, we know He talked about Hell quite a bit. Can we take a queue from that? I am not saying that we scream at people about how they are going to Hell, but it does need to come up at some point. It isn't that hard to explain to some one how Hell is reasonable if God is a just judge. From that it is very easy to explain the Gospel.
thule9999 3 years ago
cue
thule9999 3 years ago
the bigger issue is are we truly representing the Gospel as Jesus phrased it Luke 4:18-19
18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
anishemaya 3 years ago
Its sad because we fail to miss the simple test for us the Body of Christ. Jesus said for us to love each other by this non-Christians would KNOW that we are Christians. Right now they dont know that. "My people perish for a lack of knowledge" All heaven weeps while millions burn in hell & we are worried about someone praying at the Dems convention. BTW I think the Dems are wrong on everything, but the Church has failed in its mission & for that we will give an account to the Messiah!
anishemaya 3 years ago
One problem is that people in churches don't even know what Christianity is any more. A prayer like the one in this video puts forth the idea that Jesus died for social injustice. A Christian *knows* where their compassion comes from. We were given an *overwhelming* gift of grace. Out of that immeasurable compassion, we in turn show compassion. Theh problem is these days we are embarrassed to say where the compassion comes from because it might sound offensive. A "new" way comes along to "solve"
thule9999 3 years ago
..this problem. Instead of "solving" the problem it ends up denying what the cross was about! The whole point of the Cross is thrown out the window! To say Jesus died for social injustice is so very small. The gospel is so much greater than that. We don't have to go to hell because our sins are paid for! Trust in that payment, not in humans works.
thule9999 3 years ago
I think you have misunderstand my comment. I neither agree or disagree with any point made here. The point is that beleivers are even having this discussion is evidence that we are not in unity and we are not about the Fathers Business. Instead we are busy taking jabs at each other. If you go strictly by what the purpose of the Cross is, it is to restore our relationship with the Father and that is evidence by our love for each other. I disagree with the democrats & all they represent, but...
anishemaya 3 years ago
Wow...I read all the comments to follow the thought here. The problem seems simple to me, the Church has built really nice buildings and programs to impress each other. If we were as focused on building relationships with the lost as we were on the next building project someone praying in any public forum would seem completely normal. Instead we (the body of Christ) have relplace relationships with religion. Relationships with both God & man.
anishemaya 3 years ago
Dear Lord, I thank you that I am not like the corporate glutton...
benitosuave 3 years ago
the proof is in the action, and the action for the most part has lied dormant over the past 70 to 100 years and its time for the church to wake up and Love unconditionaly, to represent a misrepresented jesus. its not new its the old way resurfacing. Love never fails. my hand is extended to shake yours my friend
time2mend 3 years ago
i dont think that our message is changing though its just being brought back into the light, like you said genuine chirstians have been feeding people for centuries, because genuine christians follow the example of christ. i think we can both agree though that everyone who says there a christian are not necessiarily.
time2mend 3 years ago
well i think that through civil debate we have come to the conclusion that our opinions dont really differ that much (thule9999) The cross and hell are very real and it offends me when either are distorted.
time2mend 3 years ago
kudos to don for praying in the name of Jesus.
mrmcdaniel2 3 years ago
...where the cross gets lost (ask any
homosexual,abortionist,Muslem,Liberal, etc.)is when "Christian" extremist point fingers, blame, and condem. Get in my face and tell me im going to hell, ill walk away and wont give your cross the time a day, get to now me listen to my story, show me your love and justice then the love of Jesus and his justice, and ill be alot more likley to listen.
time2mend 3 years ago
I agree that just telling a person they are going to hell without any context is unreasonable. But if you take time to explain why hell is reasonable, then the cross and hell makes sense. Christians know more than anyone not to point fingers because they *know* that they should be condemned to hell, but instead were granted grace. We are *not* better, just repentant.
Christians have been feeding people for centuries. Why do we need to change our message to this "new" way?
thule9999 3 years ago
i really feel that talking to my wall might be more effective right now. let me try to explain once more. it goes with out saying that you "can have a full belly and still go to hell". But where the cross gets lost, is not in social justice, my point actually is that 2 complemet eachother nicely...
time2mend 3 years ago
You can preach the cross all day to a unbelieving homeless man and still at the end of the day find a closed mind, but give him a cup of cold water or warm meal in Jesus name and watch the doors fly open.its not about having bragging rights at the next bible study on how many "we lead to Jesus".Its about the human soul,meeting the needs of those around us so that the doors to that beautifuly ugly cross can be opened and they can see how much Jesus really loves them.
time2mend 3 years ago
They can have a full belly and still go to hell. So when you feed them, tell them about the cross. Just don't comprise *the* thing that is about life and death. Christians have been doing this for centuries. Unfortunately this "modern" movement *does* indeed comprise justification and replaces it with social justice. It is so week compared to what justification really is about.
thule9999 3 years ago
errr... weak. typo.
thule9999 3 years ago
I dont think anyone, here anyway, is undermining what Jesus did for us on the cross... he took all of our sins. ALL OF THEM. including those which get swept under the carpet like hearing and not doing. I agree whole heartedly that there is nothing we could have done to save our selves, but we are called now to be the hands and feet of Jesus.
time2mend 3 years ago
fake. he read from the teleprompter.
starscream077 3 years ago