I wasted over 30 years in hapkido (cult). the last 10 years I have done bjj and kick boxing and I see things for what they are. when I hear anyone say "my master says" before giving me words of advise I remember that I was once in that cult and I try to help the person get out. Do not believe that jumping 9 feet in the air or beating 3 people at once who are not well trained means you are somehow a superior being. He is a person just like you, believe it or not bruce lee was also a person lol.
Agree, Before anything else, martial arts schools are businesses in America. Of all the school I went, I can tell they all had the same thing on common. From Karate Do to TKD to Kung Fu, the idea is to make you spend as much as possible for the longest time possible. Whether you become competent as a fighter is not relevant; heck, I've seen fat black belts unable to make a head-kick for lack of elasticity.
While he did mess up with some words, he is not wrong. I know it's hard to look at your culture or martial arts group or even your church and think "cult" but for you, that very may well be the case. If you are learning without questioning or are not being given a higher understanding as to why you are performing the rituals you are, you may be a victim of a cult. Take time to think for yourself each day and it makes this impossible.
Solid advice. As an aikidoka, I have to dodge not so thinly veiled indoctrination and conversion attempts now and then. I have never met an instructor who could read the mind of a dead man, but I've met enough sensei who claimed to know the ONE and TRUE Way. Whatever the hell that is. They're the sort of teacher that enforce a rigid 'style' or forbid certain (e.g. live) training. IMO tradition should be validated by technique.
This guy is almost spot on, I don't mind people being referred to as Sensei (or other title) out of tradition and respect towards the art, but to fuel ones ego... forget it. I've seen it too often.
As with any martial art, a head teacher with an inflated attitude = Martial hell.
Ego, insecurity and self denial is the basis of any cult.
bruh this dude is stupid... thats the talk of a man with no discipline... ofcourse he is probably a good fighter... but even with the "lies" ive been taught... this guy couldnt touch em... hahaha! yea i learned from a guy who was old and bragged about a person i never met.. but he had right to... because he backed it... places that preach like this guy does are only in it for the money and the fight.. martial arts is so much more than that...
Huge over-generalization. The reason Asian MA is set up that way is because it isn't like the Western MA because you need to train in phases. For example, the standard Karate punch - simple punch, unless you pick up all the nuances of it. First you work on keeping your posture, then work on when to turn your fist, shoulders straight, twisting your hips, etc, and you do it militaristically until it becomes a habit. Looking at that, it isn't too different from the military in that the drills seem
useless and your superior officer just want to torture you. That's why you need a "Sensei" or a "Sifu" - eventually you'll find that doing sprawling drills would prevent you from getting shot. Western martial arts, from my observation, depends mainly on physical conditioning since much of it is already everyday habit. Yes, Asian martial arts allows for charlatanism, but they're usually exposed. Whether people believe them being
false is the people's decision. For example, a friend of mine went to a Karate gym in America. Big gym - lots of people training, but one thing was their stance was the western boxing stance. My friend fortunately knew that the reason that this stance isn't used is because it allows for smashing of your own fists into your face since the <90 deg angle gives a weak block.
He mentioned this point and they couldn't even address this point (even though, according to modern MA, this is actually quite practical since people don't have the time to train that hard traditionally these days and this way, you allow a small amount of damage to ensure a block to the face.
The way it is, traditional dojos are happy to answer questions regarding why techniques are the way they are (they may be obselete but oftentimes, lineages will add stuff to make things more practical as time goes on). Also, I know many Chinese Martial arts encourage you to learn the original forms before learning the derivatives so you get a good feel of the techniques' purpose and reduce charlatanism. And pardon me for saying but this type of gym (not saying yours specifically) are the types
to avoid. The "we're gonna teach you stuff but you take from it what you will so that we won't be held responsible." It's just a cop-out from teaching. For stuff like English, you have interpretations based on people's backgrounds, but for stuff like math 1+1 will always equal 2. You could say that "hey, people's bodies are different." Yeah well in that case you wouldn't really need teachers at all. After all, everyone has some natural ability to brawl and some better than others.
You'll only be offering a few tips and let people go at it instead of teaching.
Most TMA are not just about martial aspect but also the 'art.' That's why there are set 'rituals' if you would call it that. You bow to show respect to people who have been in the business longer than you have. If anything, it's just simple etiquette like saying "Thank you for the training." Charlatanism would make you worship your sensei, as you've said. Most dojos are most definitely NOT cults.
I understand why this guy came up with the conclusion because most of MA schools in America are run by Koreans, Korean martial artists are usually nationalist and have Narcissistic mentality.
They have to cover up the lineages since all the Korean MA are knick knack from Japanese and Chinese MA so they ban pupils to question.
And Americans generally can't distinguish Japan and Korea, the big element why Japan developed MA was the feudal system which Korea didn't have.
Man this guy just cant keep the crap from coming out of his mouth. Martial Arts is respect based, when you understand what respect is, you might understand why we show respect to our teachers. Oh and doesn't your school get its ass handed to them in the ring constantly by these "cult " martial arts. Seems to me your just filling your students head with a bunch of crap, Matt Thornton. Does it make you feel better when your team loses to spout this nonsense?
It's interesting that he doesn't mention what is perhaps the most important factor that plays into the creation of a cult: isolation from external ideas and influences. Without this factor, what you have is more comparable to a superstition.
This guy has apparently never trained real TMA or even a hybrid style based on TMA. Firstly, TMA is nothing like cults if it's actual TMA and not a scam, and secondly, the effectiveness of any MA depends on the individual and their training methods. Kyuokushin Karate is a TMA that has proven to be very effective in full contact competition MMA and otherwise. Also Judo is considered a TMA
I love Matts Videos. I trained Ju-Jutsu, when my trainier showed a technique and i said it woulnd work, he answerden by "i am the black belt and you do as i say". Me being also a boxen and judoka (so i know what works in fights), packed my stuff and went without a word.
Either the fucker backs his claims up or i am out of here!
I used to attend a dojo that was very much like the ones Matt Thornton was describing. so I know what he is talking about. Thank God I'm out now. Great video, Matt.
So his crap about aliveness, isn't that the whole point of sparing?
And, the whole thing about a "higher" source is more about respect than anything else. His comment was ignorant and racist. Also, just because one says he trained in whatever, doesn't mean he knows everything about what works and what doesn't.
I think you might be putting words in to his mouth then arguing against them. He's legitimately explaining the way a certain 'template' group structure works - a template which does, in fact, indicate a cultish group. BJJ can have cultish elements. It's not the 'belief' or art that matters, it's the way the group operates, or the way the members behave, especially towards critical or non-orthodox thinking. The 'higher source' is a standard cult tactic, well known by cult researchers.
his point is that in Asian martial arts u have a "master" who is infallible, and claims to be taught by a higher "source".. and is not to be questioned.. Instead of people learning on their own, and questioning the "higher source".. just like a religious cult
There seems to be this idea that if you dismiss something from another culture, then you are a racist. This is a complete fallacy. Suppose a culture decided that murdering babies was the highest good, would you support it then? It is not ignorant to dismiss something you don't like in a culture. Just because it's part of a culture, doesn't give it special status above scrutiny.
Oh dear. You have not understand anything of what he or aliveness is about, have you?
He is basically saying that if you make claims, you should be able to back them up. If you for example claim that you can fight because you do this or that art, then you should be able to show it in the physical reality, not just talk about it.
It doesn't work like that. Sharing knowledge does not a cult make - in fact, real cults often accuse everyone and everything of being a cult - especially their critics. But simply being in a group that shares knowledge, or even learns from a coach or teacher, or even priest, does not mean 'cult'. People can share information, learn from each other, or teachers, and it not be a cult. Cult requires emotional manipulation of information and perceptions, not idea sharing.
Have u trained in functional arts? I guess not or you would've made this stupid comment. Put the gloves on & see if your ancient arts, work against a boxer or a thai boxer, try to stop a decent wrestler from taking u down. Matt has expierence in Jkd, Boxing, Thai Boxing, Wrestling, & Bjj, so he knows what works & what doesn't.
I think it is important to make the distinction that not all asian arts are like this. It is sad, because I think almost any TMA could be stripped of all the nonsense and trained in a way to make it functional. They would not look the same. Aikido would start to look like Judo, and TKD would look more like kickboxing, but looks are not important. Function over form right?
He has a point in what he is saying, but you need structure to teach 5-12 year old kids. When you have teenagers and adults then it don't have to be all structure. I'm sure he is not teaching kids so he point is valid but doesn't hold truth. When a student don't ask a question he/she not learning. And if the teacher doesn't know why, then the student should move on and find the answer. And Bladestar7, good point. I forgot about the gospel truth. LOL.
The SBG method has structure, he never says there shouldn't be structure. He calls his structure the I Method: Introduce, Isolate, and Integrate.
They teach children much the same way (along the same principles, that is) they teach adults. Look into his affiliate coach Luis Gutierrez's Play As The Way program.
That is so true about what he is saying about cults. Bruce Lee sort of commented on martial arts schools never questioning their techniques because they were centuries old and the accepted it as "The Gospel Truth". However there is a big difference between Cults and "culture". Some asian martial arts like to give tribute to its cultural heritage. Doesnt make it necesarily a cult though. But I like the way he sets up his school. Making it all about practicality, discovering what works.
I would consider observing a culture which is not necessarily one's own, which involves a hierarchical structure, in which, the leader is to be revered and unquestioned, and the participants are forced to perform rituals they don't necessarily derive benefit from or care about in order to be taught by the leader, cult-like.
Interesting points, but for someone so highly educated on martial arts I wonder if it occurs to Thornton that this is merely a difference in cultures. Many martial arts systems are proud of their traditional structures and might not agree with his Western cultureless "coach" approach.
To assert "western" (and by that I take it you mean what, Europe/North America/South America?) is lacking culture is absurd. That implies to me a superiority complex.
Thorton is clearly doing well applying sound reasoning that is tested and remains to true to avoid being conned. Go sell "pride" elsewhere, I would rather not take the fall.
It's easy for the current generation of MMA practioners to dismiss hundreds of years of traditional martial arts as "cults". You slam me for using the term "western" and yet Thornton is the one slamming Eastern martial arts as religious brainwashing systems. Who has the real superiority complex here?
You've already taken "the fall" by being the typical pretentious and rude youtuber who reacts with his mouth first and his brain second.
most "traditional" martial arts schools, the pupils just follow their master without really questioning or challenging anything like sheep. In an environment where instructors are more approachable and the training is more practical, students will learn more. Just because something was practiced for hundreds of years doesnt mean it should still be toaught today in its original form. When's the last time you saw anyone practicing alchemy?
Granted, I agree with what the majority of what Thorton is saying, I just think he's painting with a broad brush. Certainly, plenty of asian martial arts styles, particularly chinese and korean I've noticed, have very cult-like leanings. But I've trained under "traditional" practitioners of pradal serey and arnis, both of which are considered to be useful martial arts. Maybe I was lucky, but the gentlemen who taught me were genuinely courteous, informative and certainly not full of bullshido
@Gabkicks Alchemy is still practiced by some Wiccans actually. Funny story, but ya alchemy became chemistry in the end. It lost its functional value as time went on so they modified it to make it better.
@Gabkicks in many cases challenging and questioning your instructor would be like challenging and questioning your maths teacher when you were 10 years old - such is the difference in knowledge. a good instructor gives information as and when you need it, and your questions will eventually be answered. they will certainly not be told what to do by you. obviously, if you are going to follow someone "like a sheep" its important to find an instructor who you are sure knows what they are doing.
@Gabkicks I remember I questioned my krav maga instructor one time. He was cool with it and showed me the technique and answered my questions. Later, a couple other students who had a karate past got pissy about em asking so many questions. I tried to tell them that the only way you learn is by asking questions but they were adamant in their beliefs.
It doesn't matter if they agree or not, sports psychologists and Olympians agree on the best way to train and it doesn't involve anything to do with traditional martial arts structures.
It is a logic fallacy (known as an appeal to tradition) to posit that behaviors should remain the same due to "always being that way." The inverse would be an appeal to novelty (which is positing that "newer is always better"). The oldness or newness of a martial art or any of it's traditions is known as a non-issue. The only rational purpose to training in a fighting system is learning how to fight.
What this video's maker is stating is that these tradition are not essential to the fight system and should not be largely emphasized. I would agree with him.
I wasted over 30 years in hapkido (cult). the last 10 years I have done bjj and kick boxing and I see things for what they are. when I hear anyone say "my master says" before giving me words of advise I remember that I was once in that cult and I try to help the person get out. Do not believe that jumping 9 feet in the air or beating 3 people at once who are not well trained means you are somehow a superior being. He is a person just like you, believe it or not bruce lee was also a person lol.
TheJerseyassasin 4 days ago
Nice Matt! Agreed.
sdboatpainter 1 month ago
Agree, Before anything else, martial arts schools are businesses in America. Of all the school I went, I can tell they all had the same thing on common. From Karate Do to TKD to Kung Fu, the idea is to make you spend as much as possible for the longest time possible. Whether you become competent as a fighter is not relevant; heck, I've seen fat black belts unable to make a head-kick for lack of elasticity.
SuperMerlot 6 months ago
While he did mess up with some words, he is not wrong. I know it's hard to look at your culture or martial arts group or even your church and think "cult" but for you, that very may well be the case. If you are learning without questioning or are not being given a higher understanding as to why you are performing the rituals you are, you may be a victim of a cult. Take time to think for yourself each day and it makes this impossible.
Shademastermcc 7 months ago
Comment removed
Shademastermcc 7 months ago
Solid advice. As an aikidoka, I have to dodge not so thinly veiled indoctrination and conversion attempts now and then. I have never met an instructor who could read the mind of a dead man, but I've met enough sensei who claimed to know the ONE and TRUE Way. Whatever the hell that is. They're the sort of teacher that enforce a rigid 'style' or forbid certain (e.g. live) training. IMO tradition should be validated by technique.
Neurocantrix 9 months ago 2
Very well said!!
RoyalDragonusa 1 year ago
This guy is almost spot on, I don't mind people being referred to as Sensei (or other title) out of tradition and respect towards the art, but to fuel ones ego... forget it. I've seen it too often.
As with any martial art, a head teacher with an inflated attitude = Martial hell.
Ego, insecurity and self denial is the basis of any cult.
H0tkebab 1 year ago
bruh this dude is stupid... thats the talk of a man with no discipline... ofcourse he is probably a good fighter... but even with the "lies" ive been taught... this guy couldnt touch em... hahaha! yea i learned from a guy who was old and bragged about a person i never met.. but he had right to... because he backed it... places that preach like this guy does are only in it for the money and the fight.. martial arts is so much more than that...
shrime 1 year ago
People in Oom Yung Doe, Chung Moo Doe / Chung Moo Quan need to hear this.
tashermdog 1 year ago
Huge over-generalization. The reason Asian MA is set up that way is because it isn't like the Western MA because you need to train in phases. For example, the standard Karate punch - simple punch, unless you pick up all the nuances of it. First you work on keeping your posture, then work on when to turn your fist, shoulders straight, twisting your hips, etc, and you do it militaristically until it becomes a habit. Looking at that, it isn't too different from the military in that the drills seem
FoieGras 1 year ago
useless and your superior officer just want to torture you. That's why you need a "Sensei" or a "Sifu" - eventually you'll find that doing sprawling drills would prevent you from getting shot. Western martial arts, from my observation, depends mainly on physical conditioning since much of it is already everyday habit. Yes, Asian martial arts allows for charlatanism, but they're usually exposed. Whether people believe them being
FoieGras 1 year ago
false is the people's decision. For example, a friend of mine went to a Karate gym in America. Big gym - lots of people training, but one thing was their stance was the western boxing stance. My friend fortunately knew that the reason that this stance isn't used is because it allows for smashing of your own fists into your face since the <90 deg angle gives a weak block.
FoieGras 1 year ago
He mentioned this point and they couldn't even address this point (even though, according to modern MA, this is actually quite practical since people don't have the time to train that hard traditionally these days and this way, you allow a small amount of damage to ensure a block to the face.
FoieGras 1 year ago
The way it is, traditional dojos are happy to answer questions regarding why techniques are the way they are (they may be obselete but oftentimes, lineages will add stuff to make things more practical as time goes on). Also, I know many Chinese Martial arts encourage you to learn the original forms before learning the derivatives so you get a good feel of the techniques' purpose and reduce charlatanism. And pardon me for saying but this type of gym (not saying yours specifically) are the types
FoieGras 1 year ago
to avoid. The "we're gonna teach you stuff but you take from it what you will so that we won't be held responsible." It's just a cop-out from teaching. For stuff like English, you have interpretations based on people's backgrounds, but for stuff like math 1+1 will always equal 2. You could say that "hey, people's bodies are different." Yeah well in that case you wouldn't really need teachers at all. After all, everyone has some natural ability to brawl and some better than others.
FoieGras 1 year ago
You'll only be offering a few tips and let people go at it instead of teaching.
Most TMA are not just about martial aspect but also the 'art.' That's why there are set 'rituals' if you would call it that. You bow to show respect to people who have been in the business longer than you have. If anything, it's just simple etiquette like saying "Thank you for the training." Charlatanism would make you worship your sensei, as you've said. Most dojos are most definitely NOT cults.
FoieGras 1 year ago
The only cultic MA school in Japan I know are Ninjutsu schools which most pupils are non-Japanese.
Ninjutsu has never been recognized as MA in Japan and it's always kids thing.
Kendo, Judo, Kyudo, Naginata, Karate and variety of Koryu schools are everywhere in Japan, pupils respect dojo masters but never worship like god.
You can question dojo masters frankly.
ChosonNinjaArchives 1 year ago
I understand why this guy came up with the conclusion because most of MA schools in America are run by Koreans, Korean martial artists are usually nationalist and have Narcissistic mentality.
They have to cover up the lineages since all the Korean MA are knick knack from Japanese and Chinese MA so they ban pupils to question.
And Americans generally can't distinguish Japan and Korea, the big element why Japan developed MA was the feudal system which Korea didn't have.
ChosonNinjaArchives 1 year ago
Man this guy just cant keep the crap from coming out of his mouth. Martial Arts is respect based, when you understand what respect is, you might understand why we show respect to our teachers. Oh and doesn't your school get its ass handed to them in the ring constantly by these "cult " martial arts. Seems to me your just filling your students head with a bunch of crap, Matt Thornton. Does it make you feel better when your team loses to spout this nonsense?
theapicalmeristem 1 year ago
what this guy is talking about becomes similiar to choson ninja
jin54363 1 year ago
omg Chosoninja
kaindrg 1 year ago
It's interesting that he doesn't mention what is perhaps the most important factor that plays into the creation of a cult: isolation from external ideas and influences. Without this factor, what you have is more comparable to a superstition.
Pantslessbob 1 year ago
This guy has apparently never trained real TMA or even a hybrid style based on TMA. Firstly, TMA is nothing like cults if it's actual TMA and not a scam, and secondly, the effectiveness of any MA depends on the individual and their training methods. Kyuokushin Karate is a TMA that has proven to be very effective in full contact competition MMA and otherwise. Also Judo is considered a TMA
karatecloutier77 1 year ago
@karatecloutier77 well he talking more like to those american McDojos and frauds like chosonninja
kaindrg 1 year ago 2
The is true as I have been practicing for years and there is a religious overtone to it all or should I say cult overtones
G5macintosh 1 year ago
matt would never say he knows everything about what works or doesnt. thats up to you to figure out for yourself. thats straight blast .
oldpetty 2 years ago
Soo true just look at the IWTA Wing Tsun or the Bujinkanor even the whole Dillman Kenpo clan all exhibite very cultlike behaviour.
tillerbear 2 years ago
I love Matts Videos. I trained Ju-Jutsu, when my trainier showed a technique and i said it woulnd work, he answerden by "i am the black belt and you do as i say". Me being also a boxen and judoka (so i know what works in fights), packed my stuff and went without a word.
Either the fucker backs his claims up or i am out of here!
damuschka 2 years ago
I used to attend a dojo that was very much like the ones Matt Thornton was describing. so I know what he is talking about. Thank God I'm out now. Great video, Matt.
TheSmartGuy1234 2 years ago
Wow dude, this is a twisted generalization of the martial arts world.
TonyPstunts 2 years ago
Boy, Total, you sure don't listen very well. Listen again and try to reconcile your comment with what was actually said in the video.
See? Impossible.
haircutdeluxe 2 years ago
So his crap about aliveness, isn't that the whole point of sparing?
And, the whole thing about a "higher" source is more about respect than anything else. His comment was ignorant and racist. Also, just because one says he trained in whatever, doesn't mean he knows everything about what works and what doesn't.
totalimmortal08 2 years ago
I think you might be putting words in to his mouth then arguing against them. He's legitimately explaining the way a certain 'template' group structure works - a template which does, in fact, indicate a cultish group. BJJ can have cultish elements. It's not the 'belief' or art that matters, it's the way the group operates, or the way the members behave, especially towards critical or non-orthodox thinking. The 'higher source' is a standard cult tactic, well known by cult researchers.
FamilyQuan 2 years ago
Comment removed
FamilyQuan 2 years ago
he says that in Asian martial arts they train in an organized way, and that bad for some reason?
hanaman1 2 years ago
He only says that if you completely misunderstand what he is saying because you've decided you don't like his true meaning :D
aikighost 2 years ago
his point is that in Asian martial arts u have a "master" who is infallible, and claims to be taught by a higher "source".. and is not to be questioned.. Instead of people learning on their own, and questioning the "higher source".. just like a religious cult
caliNYCdoja 2 years ago
Comment removed
FamilyQuan 2 years ago
There seems to be this idea that if you dismiss something from another culture, then you are a racist. This is a complete fallacy. Suppose a culture decided that murdering babies was the highest good, would you support it then? It is not ignorant to dismiss something you don't like in a culture. Just because it's part of a culture, doesn't give it special status above scrutiny.
TheSmartGuy1234 2 years ago
i do judo.
it's not like the karate kid. we call each other by first name. we don't bow. we fight well.
RiverCityPC 2 years ago 2
Oh dear. You have not understand anything of what he or aliveness is about, have you?
He is basically saying that if you make claims, you should be able to back them up. If you for example claim that you can fight because you do this or that art, then you should be able to show it in the physical reality, not just talk about it.
Now, don't you agree on this?
esgietheqroue 2 years ago 2
thornton has his own cult and wants your membership too! lol
kunglek 3 years ago
It doesn't work like that. Sharing knowledge does not a cult make - in fact, real cults often accuse everyone and everything of being a cult - especially their critics. But simply being in a group that shares knowledge, or even learns from a coach or teacher, or even priest, does not mean 'cult'. People can share information, learn from each other, or teachers, and it not be a cult. Cult requires emotional manipulation of information and perceptions, not idea sharing.
FamilyQuan 2 years ago
Have u trained in functional arts? I guess not or you would've made this stupid comment. Put the gloves on & see if your ancient arts, work against a boxer or a thai boxer, try to stop a decent wrestler from taking u down. Matt has expierence in Jkd, Boxing, Thai Boxing, Wrestling, & Bjj, so he knows what works & what doesn't.
darwen81 3 years ago 3
Thisguy is a racist too, and his igorance shows it!
rehwr 2 years ago
I think it is important to make the distinction that not all asian arts are like this. It is sad, because I think almost any TMA could be stripped of all the nonsense and trained in a way to make it functional. They would not look the same. Aikido would start to look like Judo, and TKD would look more like kickboxing, but looks are not important. Function over form right?
Jonobos 3 years ago 9
i totally agree
sagebates 3 years ago 5
It basically boils down to there being no styles, just the right way to kick, punch, throw, grapple etc.
Good TKD becomes kickboxing, good kickboxing becomes muay thai.
JonathanBloggs 3 years ago
@Jonobos Yeah, Aikido would look a little like counter wrestling.
tiecuando 1 year ago
He has a point in what he is saying, but you need structure to teach 5-12 year old kids. When you have teenagers and adults then it don't have to be all structure. I'm sure he is not teaching kids so he point is valid but doesn't hold truth. When a student don't ask a question he/she not learning. And if the teacher doesn't know why, then the student should move on and find the answer. And Bladestar7, good point. I forgot about the gospel truth. LOL.
RDraGon2179 3 years ago
The SBG method has structure, he never says there shouldn't be structure. He calls his structure the I Method: Introduce, Isolate, and Integrate.
They teach children much the same way (along the same principles, that is) they teach adults. Look into his affiliate coach Luis Gutierrez's Play As The Way program.
BlowjobLessons 3 years ago
Are we talking about Gaijin teaching Gaijin? or Asians teachers? because it seems to me that this only applies in the West.
TaiQiDao 3 years ago
That has got to be one of the most coherent and succinct analysis of Asian martial arts as I know them.
streetsmart1980 3 years ago
That is so true about what he is saying about cults. Bruce Lee sort of commented on martial arts schools never questioning their techniques because they were centuries old and the accepted it as "The Gospel Truth". However there is a big difference between Cults and "culture". Some asian martial arts like to give tribute to its cultural heritage. Doesnt make it necesarily a cult though. But I like the way he sets up his school. Making it all about practicality, discovering what works.
Bladestar7 3 years ago
I would consider observing a culture which is not necessarily one's own, which involves a hierarchical structure, in which, the leader is to be revered and unquestioned, and the participants are forced to perform rituals they don't necessarily derive benefit from or care about in order to be taught by the leader, cult-like.
TheSmartGuy1234 2 years ago
I still find his philosophies interesting though.
TheGreaterGood80 3 years ago 2
Interesting points, but for someone so highly educated on martial arts I wonder if it occurs to Thornton that this is merely a difference in cultures. Many martial arts systems are proud of their traditional structures and might not agree with his Western cultureless "coach" approach.
TheGreaterGood80 3 years ago
To assert "western" (and by that I take it you mean what, Europe/North America/South America?) is lacking culture is absurd. That implies to me a superiority complex.
Thorton is clearly doing well applying sound reasoning that is tested and remains to true to avoid being conned. Go sell "pride" elsewhere, I would rather not take the fall.
CanadianWolverine 3 years ago
It's easy for the current generation of MMA practioners to dismiss hundreds of years of traditional martial arts as "cults". You slam me for using the term "western" and yet Thornton is the one slamming Eastern martial arts as religious brainwashing systems. Who has the real superiority complex here?
You've already taken "the fall" by being the typical pretentious and rude youtuber who reacts with his mouth first and his brain second.
TheGreaterGood80 3 years ago
most "traditional" martial arts schools, the pupils just follow their master without really questioning or challenging anything like sheep. In an environment where instructors are more approachable and the training is more practical, students will learn more. Just because something was practiced for hundreds of years doesnt mean it should still be toaught today in its original form. When's the last time you saw anyone practicing alchemy?
Gabkicks 3 years ago 8
Granted, I agree with what the majority of what Thorton is saying, I just think he's painting with a broad brush. Certainly, plenty of asian martial arts styles, particularly chinese and korean I've noticed, have very cult-like leanings. But I've trained under "traditional" practitioners of pradal serey and arnis, both of which are considered to be useful martial arts. Maybe I was lucky, but the gentlemen who taught me were genuinely courteous, informative and certainly not full of bullshido
TheGreaterGood80 3 years ago
@Gabkicks Alchemy is still practiced by some Wiccans actually. Funny story, but ya alchemy became chemistry in the end. It lost its functional value as time went on so they modified it to make it better.
DuykRuyk 1 year ago
@Gabkicks in many cases challenging and questioning your instructor would be like challenging and questioning your maths teacher when you were 10 years old - such is the difference in knowledge. a good instructor gives information as and when you need it, and your questions will eventually be answered. they will certainly not be told what to do by you. obviously, if you are going to follow someone "like a sheep" its important to find an instructor who you are sure knows what they are doing.
tommotomt 1 year ago
@Gabkicks I remember I questioned my krav maga instructor one time. He was cool with it and showed me the technique and answered my questions. Later, a couple other students who had a karate past got pissy about em asking so many questions. I tried to tell them that the only way you learn is by asking questions but they were adamant in their beliefs.
DuykRuyk 7 months ago
It doesn't matter if they agree or not, sports psychologists and Olympians agree on the best way to train and it doesn't involve anything to do with traditional martial arts structures.
Results are all that matters.
aikighost 3 years ago 4
It is a logic fallacy (known as an appeal to tradition) to posit that behaviors should remain the same due to "always being that way." The inverse would be an appeal to novelty (which is positing that "newer is always better"). The oldness or newness of a martial art or any of it's traditions is known as a non-issue. The only rational purpose to training in a fighting system is learning how to fight.
TheSmartGuy1234 2 years ago
What this video's maker is stating is that these tradition are not essential to the fight system and should not be largely emphasized. I would agree with him.
TheSmartGuy1234 2 years ago