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From: mingoi313
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  • Finkelstein was shown to be quite innaccurate, stating to the actual person who participated in the accords that they submited reservations when in fact they did not. Finkelstein was owned.

  • Israel is breaking international law and they use smoke and mirrors along with the strength of the United States to do it. That makes the US in fault of helping disregard a law that we suppose to follow because we are in the United Nations.

  • Ben-Ami was foreign minister, so I think he wanted to be careful with his words so he's not labeled as a traitor (see Goldstone). He's a good scholar from what I have read - Israelis usually are not so dishonest when you read their scholarly work. See Benny Morris, good historian, but he has extreme contempt for Arabs/Palestinians and is very dishonest in his commentaries. Interesting debate though

  • Excellent debate. First time I've seen an Israeli spokesperson who hasn't interrupted, diverted the issue or resorted to propagandist outbursts with Norman.

  • Finkelstein and Vanunu are the bravest jews alive, and the most honest

  • i just want to say to all the zionists and israelese "fuck you"

  • these bastards just need another good kicking! make this bastards humble again!

  • Bill Clinton My Life (Vintage Books 2005) pg 946

    "Arafat had said he accepted the parameters with reservations. The problem was that his reservations, unlike Israel’s, were outside the parameters"

  • @hometv1970 Lol, Clinton blaming others again

  • anti-semite= in opposition to 3% running the world.

  • It's not a debate, they both essentially agree with Ami acting the part of the apologist. Wow.

  • It's not a debate, they both essentially agree with Ami ating the part of the apologist. Wow.

  • dr.Norman rules

  • Yes, Ben Ami is a gentlemen. Very much more so than Dershowitz!

  • And before Israel got to that land, who was living there middlemanscaggs? Please read history then talk...

  • In which legal documents of the UN doze it say it's Israel land for the last 4000 years? Please show me... God damn dumb ass people trying to spread propaganda lol

  • @MrWiseGuy1974 it doesn't/

    was this pointed out here ?

    if so, tell me where.

    if not, kindly admit that you decided to type your hatred and that's all.

  • 5:40-6:18 LOL! Finkelstein is so great!

  • well,atually, the UN resolution on war crimes state that there is no statute of limitations on war crimes.

    Next, there are no paletinian lands, rather the Land in question has been Israel for the last 4000 years. It was occupied by the Romans, byzantines, Arabs Turks, and british/ Jordanians. The thieves are the occupiers, Israel is only restoring its own land.

  • Let's not forget that International Law is not retroactive. Of course what the US did to the Native Americans in the 1500's and on was horrible, but what differentiates it is that Israel occupied Palestinian lands long after the UN had been established and International law had been written and agreed upon. BTW, if seems that when one can't justify Israel's immoral actions, they simply mention the US and Native Americans.

  • Ben Ami is so far ahead of Norm on so many levels it is difficult to know where to begin. I congratulate Dr. Ben Ami on refraining form demanding the UN call upon the United States to withdraw from the occupied territories (the fifty states), it stole, not through war, but through genocide.

    Still, a UN resolution declaring the US illegal settlements unacceptable is loing overdue.

  • @Farnaz1Mansouri1 trust me norm is way ahead of ben ami..

  • @Farnaz1Mansouri1

    So your brilliant position is that two wrongs make a right? Because the U.S. committed crimes against humanity, it is okay for Israel to do so? The stupidity of that line of "reasoning" should be obvious.

  • Finklestein is a settler himself, according to his own definition - since America was occupied by the Brits, and by conquest. So by international war, he should return to some place in europe where he came from, an not to Israel, since he is not a Jew.

  • @middlemanscaggs he isnt in europe he leaves newyork like many immigrants

  • Here what Pr. Clinton testify about this.

    /watch?v=4UJamyuv_3Y

    Clearly this in accord with what Be Ami said.

  • @typtypo

    just calling names makes you look stupid, not him.

  • I don't know of anyone as civil in his debates as Norman Finkelstein. Shlomo Ben Ami in his defenses, could not prove Mr. Finkelstein wrong.

  • 2 start with i would nuke a big slice of the middle east n make it inhabitable cos its the only way 2 deal wi the problem. 

  • I've more respect for Shlomo after seeing this video...After he made his point he ddn't wildly shout at Norman facts and figures about holocaust deniers but listened to the answer Norman had, credit where credit is due he listened and didn't try to shout over like so many others E.G. Douchawitz or the like...even though Norman was right...

  • @shantolog ur just a dimwit!

  • @killah666786 really? how exactly am i a dimwit? has anything i said inaccurate or misleading? or do you only have insults to answer questions !

  • on the subject of america and israel "we enter the area of unreason, we enter a twilight zone"...lol @ NF. That was funny and true

  • well, Finklestien brought up a great point. Didn't Meir Kahane want to transfer all Arabs out?

  • Well, Finkelstein is not necessarily brilliant as many of you say but he certainly seems dedicated, educated and morally superior to most mainstream American Scholars... I can tell Chomsky was quite an influence, the both use certain phrases....

  • Love finkelstein!!!!

  • I agree with Norman Finkelstein about the extreme hysteria by the so-called supporters of Israel in the United States, and we can see it in Canada too. Among the people I know, when there’s a discussion about the Israel-Palestine conflict, they can turn very hostile to the point that the Palestinians as a people do not exist, and therefore according to them, they don’t have the right to live in self-determination. Their point of view is pretty radical, bordering downright religious.

  • Shlomo Ben-Ami will be taking part in Intelligence Squared’s live debate entitled “The Middle East peace process is a charade” in London, Sept 2010. Hear him argue for the motion and ask him questions in person. Go to our website Intelligence Squared for info and tickets. This event can be watched live online worldwide.

  • ehh ehhh ehh uhh uhh ehh uhh ehhh uhhh ehh uhh he is shitting him self

  • @azielzoeker19 or maybe english is his second language...

    no offence to finkelstein but i doubt he could hold as well an argument in hebrew.

  • Good debate. I only saw very little from Mr. Ben Ami. Anyway, I'm glad no-one tried to scream over eachother.

    Bless.

  • "This is where we stand " that mr. Ben Ami is in practice and in theory a reservation. You are marking a political boundary beyond which you are refusing to transcend and thus you are manifesting some very tangible resevations

  • Shlomo Ben Ami:

    eeh ehh amm amm ehh ammm eehh ammm

  • Finkelstein is a great Jew. Not that many Jews today have the courage to stand up and criticize Israel, especially not to point such a Finkelstein does.

    We need more of that type, preferably in the Israeli regime...

  • Ben ammi is honourable and to be honest I wish there could be more people like him the peace negotiations.Debates like theseare good as one can actually here and savour what these guys are saying.With the negotiations as there would be some progress in the palestinian-israeli debate.

  • NF is a wonderful person and a great scholar. One can only respect and admire such a man.

    I liked Dr. Ben Ami as well. A breath of fresh air coming for once from the pro-Israel side! He has good breeding and is an honest and reasonable person. In fact, he's the antithesis of the typical and rather maniacal attack dogs NF has to deal with when discussing these issues. I wish him well!

  • Ami makes a sad point - with constant elections, politicians will say all sorts of things and stir up all kinds of feelings - any rationality is out the windows. How can any negotiations be made?

    But that reason will start wear thin.

  • not under international law they don't. the claim it for other reasons though. historical and religious significance

  • Do the Israelis really have no legitimate claim to Jerusalem?

  • @JimmyeDallas Yes they do: they can refer to the Balfour letter and to 1947/8. Those are the legitimate 'birth certificates' of Israel.

    All territories conquered after that (the occupied Palestinian territories of 1967) are illegal.

    And of course the bible is no legitimate claim. It is not meaningless, but not legitimate. I have more title to Lake Tanganyika (where you and I really come from) than they do to Palestinian land. Especially the wall and the settlements, but that is evident.

  • ...an english lord, balfour, a representative of the government that occupied half the globe, exterminated most of native populations where ever they would come and conquer, same government that occupied india and banned citizens of india to use the salt from the sea for their food, because the salt from the indian sea belonged to the english queen...so that lord balfour gave the right to jews to found their country on the illegally occupied land of palestinians...

  • No.

  • balfour declaration was actually a letter from a pawn (balfour0) to his master (rotschield) where the pawn or a servant (balfour) promised something that he had absolutely had no right to promise. but the master (rotschield) was not interested in such formality as a law or he just needed an excuse...to occupy palestinian land..

  • My "No" was aimed at JimmyeDallas, just so everyone knows. I agree completely with instantkarmasc.

  • But does the significance of their population now not give legitimacy to their claim? How can a peace be established when peoples have such fundamental differences of what such a peace would look like? If it means that hundreds of thousands of Israelis are going to have to abandon their whole settlement project in the West Bank and East Jerusalem then that is politically impossible for Israel to accomplish. To roll back such an old imperial imposition through international consensus would...

  • establish an international legal precedent which could deny not only the entire legitimate status of the former British dominion, the United States, Russia, China, and a lot of other nations.

  • no isralis do not because palestinans oriniated from it. how hard is it to understand that?

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  • Thumbs up for Mr Finkelstein but also for Mr Ben Ami , he was a polite gentleman which defended his arguments in a reasonable-objective-non-sensa­tionalist way.

  • true. he was much more dignified than douchowitz

  • You talk about dignity while you refer to Dershowitz as "douchowitz."

    Ironic.

  • @Bautisnemo Yes I agree.

  • @Bautisnemo

    Sholomo Ben Ami is indeed a polite and well mannered gentleman. I think this is one of the first and maybe only time I have seen a Zionist debating Professor Finkelstein in calm collected and articulate way, instead of using hyperboles and sensationalising everything.

    I think maybe because he is an Oxford Educated historian...

  • @Bautisnemo Yes, it's true. Ben Ami is obviously extremely biased and not honest about a lot of stuff (particularly stuff he was involved in), but he is definitely one of the least hysterical Israeli apologists I've seen in a debate with a human rights campaigner.

  • @Bautisnemo

    yes, Mr Ben Ami defends himself decently.

  • @Bautisnemo This was literally a perfect debate. Both civil and fascinating ;) A real gem in the history of political discussion

  • Excellent video,Pro Finkelstein is one smart cookie,If you slip up with Norman,you will get served like sushi with a side order of sashimi.

    Loved the music in this video,I was getting down to it. Thanks for the upload,peace.

  • Norman is brilliant!!!!

  • for realz huh!?

  • the state of israel has the same princip like the nazis but in smart way , 1 jew is more worth than 1000 palestinian childrens ? if palestinin killed 1 jew then the palestinian r terrorist , but if israel killed 300 childrens is israel not a terrorist state !? israel has nothing to do with democracy or humanrights . supposed the land belong to the jews do have they the right to kill the ppl who live also there ? had the nazis the right to kill jews in germany cuz its a german land ?

    NO

  • All of them? Even the Jews that speak the truth like Norman here?

  • Norman Finkelstein - John Malkovich would be perfect to play this guy in a movie lol but i dont see that happening as Malkovich would prob hate Norman with a passion

  • Yes he does .......it's about time someone is showing the Jewish people just how badly the are getting hosed...... by their own leaders...... and they do it under the guise of..... the business of the Holocaust and antisemitism. Strangely enough if you follow the money trail you will find motive.

  • wow, he Norman F called it like it is.

  • ben ami talking about the breakdown of talks at taba is really revealing.

  • Bill Clinton said it best when he stated something about "There was nothing too bad about America that Americans can't FIX". After 911 the Bush cabal used the Public's Fear to Terrorize the Public. Well it was easy back than,but now the American Public is Waking Up Obama won't have a Fearful American Public,but more educated and Pissed Off Public that will FIX the USA if the Cowardly Politicans can't.  I'm Canadian and I was never Anti-Amerian 4 Bush's USA wasn't American.

  • wow this shlomo guy was OWNED!!

    you know how it goes ... the liar is doomed to be exposed

  • yes....actions do have consequences

    finkelshit says that he is an expert on the holocaust....ask him what happened to the capos after the war

    his fate is sealed with them

  • What are you suggesting?

  • and yet...for 60 years, you have been unable to wipe out that speck

    wonder why?

    could it be that all arabs are pussies?

  • After so many dead, now Hamas can celebrate its divine victory. Wish Hamas many more such victories!

  • it says enough that you associate death with victory. get real man ... you will all be held accountable for your actions (same goes for hamas and hezbollah) allways stand out for justice!!! ALLWAYS. and it is clear that in this case the ZIONISTS are the wrongdoers. Not that hamas (wich by the way was created by israel) or hezbollah or the PLO have done nothing wrong. Open your eyes brother ... like many jews allready have.

  • All the lies about Arafat is being exposed. So now there were no Israeli reservation "it was just experession ans coamparsion....."

    Ben you are a liar like most Isrraelis!!!!

    One of the deals the Israelis made was that Clinton will have to blame Arafat for the failure!!!! It was the Israelis who renegged!

    This liar admists it was Mofaz who perseuaded them to "fine tune it" --Liar!

  • Israel is now exposed to the entire world, now everyone knows Brutal Israel they are the true terrorists.

  • Brilliantly illuminating debate. Should be required viewing for all Americans.

  • destroy the Arab world, are you kidding me? The Arab World is no longer an agrarian society like they were thirty years ago. Today they have weapons and armaments and technology. If there was a war between Syria alone i would put my money on Syria. Lets not even mention Egypt. Israel maybe strong but their place is only secured by the fact that the United States might enter a war on the Israeli side. Other wise Israel would have been wiped off the face of the planet a long time ago.

  • Ah so, all the arguments Israel makes about being afraid for its own survival are utter bullshit. It's amazing when I see someone admits something that debases the entire argument for the national security posture for the state they are defending.

  • I don't understand what you mean. Please elaborate.

  • well you said above to Tammer, "if Israel would wantn it can destroy the who Arab World in 24 hours". So the idea that Israel undertakes the policies it does in the occupied territories because it is afraid for its survival is, in a word, bullshit.

    that's what i mean.

  • Israel isn't in danger of being destroyed because it's a got nukes and delivery platforms - DUH!

  • You wish...

  • you clearly show the spirit of the aggressive zionists the new nazis! yalla habibi.. if you're proud of being israeli then go and hide in the shelter to avoid a hand made rocket from bombing your head!

    your oppression must come to an end!

  • Israel didn't make it against Hamas' with their Kalashnikov.

  • Lets no get into anti jew rubbish. Professor Norman Finkelstein is jewish and a great man, so is noam chomsky, Zinn and many others.

  • i seriously doubt that there could ever be peace in Israel/Palestine because of the way Israel was founded and the Palestinians will always (with good reason) be upset about that

  • Dont worry, you'll all get your ww3.... clearly your all asking for it.

    Im stocking up on essential shit and moving way the fuck north.

    Fuck all you war mongering disgraces!

  • fuck you khaligi sharmoteh send your mother to me i shut up

  • thanks for confirmation i always knew that you moslems and arabs worship Hitler and are closet Nazis. palestine=Arab=moslem=Nazi

  • Your point?

  • thanks you Norman for saying the Sholom Ben Ami is reasonable. now we know what we always know Israelis ready and support peace.now please tell us who is reasonable i the Arab side s we could talk with him.

  • Ladies and Gentlemen:

    On the right side Norman Finkelstein with destroying arguments, and on the left a despairingly sad Ben Ami: ,,Ehhhh ehhhh ehhh" xD

  • la ela helalah yahood habib o lah

  • Ben Ami: "Ours was not a document about reservations, it was a statement that said this is where we stand today, we have gone a very long way we can not go beyond that."

    Tell me how that's not the textbook definition of a document of reservations?

  • Because the bulk of the document was Israel saying where it's positions where in the past not what Israel wasn't willing to do with regards to the Clinton parameters.

  • gremlinof,

    Its a weak reason because the Israeli positions in the past had no basis in international law or common sense really. The document is like more of an attempt to 'play the referee'.

  • [T]he SLOBODAN MILOSOVITCHS of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt , the like of POLISH illegal immegrant " Now President?! " Shimon Peres, Do not mistake him 4 PERETZ the Mustached ARAB MOROCCAN Murderer, WAR minster, or with the oher Moroccan David Levy. And the Polish-Russian Gangster Mass-murderer from 1948- 2005, Ariel Sharon, and the POLISH Begin.

  • wake up! peace not apartheid.

  • Did i miss a meeting or something?  When did God become a realtor?

  • God gave you jack shit, because god is fake. Grow up.

    Zionism is COLONIALISM and Israel is a criminal state.

  • Um, okay?

    US support for Israel is dying. Without the US behind your back you will be the one to get your zionist ass kicked.

  • so is this what zionism stands for?

  • Fuck off,please.

  • I love Finkelstein! He is so smart!

  • He is a fool if he thinks he can save his neck by shmoozing with the Islamofascists.

  • Thats really not what he's trying to do... you're just angry because one of your people has chosen not to scheme and lie, like the rest of you have grown used to doing.

  • mingoi313

    Fantastic response

  • Professor Norman Finkelstein is a breathe of fresh air in this crazy finger pointing world

  • With respect your comment is kiddish. First of all, it tries to potray all Muslims as supporters of Al Qaeda which is false - and there's a myriad of polls that have been done in this regard. But as for your hypothetical exercise, I am firstly a Muslim and be certain that if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) were alive today, he would not only disapprove of him, but would make sure that he is punished for each crime that he has committed.

  • Bin Laden is a criminal who has killed more Muslims than any non-Muslims he will ever kill. By the way, human beings are equal in my eyes, Muslim or non-Muslim doesn't make a difference - killing unjustly is violating a natural, intrinsic right demanded by existence. Now, if I may ask but with a more logical approach, do you think Bush's acts are in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh)? Or Olmert's are in line with the teachings of Moses (pbuh)?

  • @jerrymitchner

    the ones who don't answer are probably shocked by your insensitivity. that's an extremely offensive question to ask a person. get your head out of your ass...

  • @jerrymitchner

    Bin Laden is friends with Bush.

  • peaceOff,

    Is that really necessary? It just makes you look like a fool.

  • He hates Jews, lesbians, PBS, NGOs, and peace, thinks Goodman is a Marxist, and he conflates Marxism and fascism. Why bother trying to communicate with this person, so clearly beyond reason?

  • Who are you talking about exactly?

  • I was talking about peace0ff. I found it mysterious people were trying to reason with him.

  • Is this "peaceoff" guy a Ron Paultard?

  • who gave that smelly marxo-fascist dyke-jew amy goodman a tv show? oh that's right, ngo sponsored pbs.

  • marxo-fascist? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are being facetious.

  • actually, "marxo-fascist" makes more sense than treating marxism and fascism as opposite poles of a continuum between "left-wing" and "right-wing". Until their competing megalomanias got in the way, Stalin(marxist) and Hitler (fascist) were able to be allies.

  • hi peaceoff

    thought i'd remind you what a twat you are, after reading your article Spiritual Niggers: Islam and the West...what a fucking liar you are after promoting islam and tearing the christian west to pieces you then go and say " I was raised never to use the "N" word" ..You twat...you've used that insult all over youtube...you phoney !

  • Norm's my homeboy.

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