I'd rather join a service organization than be a part of The Episcopal Church. TEC has completely lost it's theological moorings. Most of the Anglican Communion shuns it and the reason so many splinter churches have started and most Episcopal churches are emptying out is because they have no theology left. Sad
I love my fellow Anglicans, to include those in my marginally attended Episcopal Church...however, when will the day come that Presiding Bishop Schori spends 1/100th of the same amount of time she spends talking about "diversity", talking about the abomination of abortion, which has murdered MILLIONS of our Lord's children, our brothers and sisters? Where do Priests of ECUSA have all their pro-life videos here on Youtube? Where is Gene Robinson on the issue? Do tell.
You are getting hung up by a poor understanding of church history and of the meaning of words. Episcopal means that a denomination is presided over by Bishops. Just as the word catholic means universal. It does not mean the Catholic Church unless you capatalize it. I'm dreadfully concerned that you do not know this. I certainly must question your religious education.
First off this is not a good reason to be part of the tec. We welcome you but if you like steak, I am not going to condemn you for eating it. There are many ways to Christ- not just tec. Secondly how dare they actually treat women like they matter. And how dare they act in a welcoming manner to minorites -Jesus would never do that.... Oh wait yes he did. Oh wait it was the Pharisees that pissed him off not the sinners and tax collectors.
I sat for years as one of a handful of traditionalists in a very liberal Episcopal church listening to a supply priest sermonize in support of homosexual marriage. I finally pointed out to him that he has never sermonized so fervently for any of the 10 commandments - and that in his adore for gay marriage he is quite willing to break bread with those who don't even accept the deity of Christ to disparage those of us who do not accept gay marriage.
@DancingTillIDie I asked him if you can be an Episcopalian and not believe in gay marriage - he said Yes. But eventually I tired of having my cjharacter disparaged and left for a 1928 BCP Anglican parish.
It breaks my heart to leave a church my father helped to found 50 years ago. Please stop the inhibitions, law suits, and excommunications. Don't change our liturgy. Stop hating your traditions and traditionalists. I will always love the Episcopal church.
Does this imply they're not? The other 50 'splinters' are far more Anglican than Kathrine can ever pretend she is.
at 1:37: "TEC has common life in it's doctrine, discipline, and worship..."
The only thing the TEC churches have in common is that their doctrine is unbiblical. Don't even think of using that to link to the rest of the Anglican faith. That's insulting. GAFCON and the Global South Convention show just how far TEC has drifted into lala land.
Why not? Because it a doctrinal disaster! The question is WHY be a part of that!? The splinter is the correct Christian response to Kathrine (the circus ringleader) and her quest to rid the American province of all orthodox bishops.
The Episcopal church in America itself is a splinter group that separated from the the Church of England after the American Revolution. It later reunited under the Anglican Communion. The Church of England is itself a splinter group that broker away from the Roman Catholic Church. Why become part of a splinter group, because the Episcopal Church has turned its back on the word of God, the Anglican Communion, and Church History. And is actually forcing out all faithful christian witness.
The answer to your question is that in attempting to ordain women and in allowing women to act out the roles of bishop and priest, the Episcopal Church has given up the Apostolic Succession and lost the validity of her sacraments.
Nice video, but it misses the issues within the church. What kind of church allows a Bishop to be in control of Diocese for 25 years when he denies the resurrection and the virgin birth? What kind of church ordains homosexuals? What kind of church has a bishop who mocks the Bible?
I'm sorry for what has happened to you. But you have run headlong into this apostasy. You will, in the end, be nothing more than a santuary religion for people who do not recognize the authority of scripture.
To invade a church 300 years prior. Manipulating the flock by craft unknown. Presently has set up a group of fleshly oriented people who according to their church have the power to administer to your spirits. Bringing them in and out to the desire that they live by. Equates to homosexual living being promoted not only in the church but also the communications and powers unseen but manifested in flesh in all earth's children of the nondiscerning. This is what this stain of a church represents.
I can't blame you for saying that 50heaven, it's painful when mainstream Christians put Anglicans and Episcopalians in the same boat, but I understand, and TEC has succeeded in convincing a few others in other Anglican provinces as well. But you sure are more than right to suspect Anglicans in general since we have such huge problems with TEC. Before you work with Anglicans, make sure they serve our Lord.
Tango, few conservative Christians even know who Schori is, and few of those who blow the whistle on her denying the resurrection / the divinity of Christ are really all that conservative. I don't think they mean she has no right to do so - the question is whether the Anglican Communion wants a member province who denies these things. That's not exactly a "freedom of speech" issue or "shutting everyone else up."
Tango, MaryWaterton's comment is the only one here that was downrated so it doesn't show any more, and you are complaining about "censorship"? I've presented facts about Spong to help people think about TEC's "own merits" with no replies, and you think this is all about someone wanting to shut you up? You are free here Tango to say what you like, and I do hope that you do think about these things.
People, Episcopalianism in most places is VERY VERY different from Anglicanism, don't confuse them.
nice video, nice church. But only the Petrine Office can assure visible unity. Perhaps that is not important, but splintering can only go so far before all you have is splinters.
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When the Episcopal Church began ordaining homosexuals, they gave themselves over to Satan without pretense. If you are a christian, flee from this evil organization. You are disgracing Jesus Christ by sanctioning this abomination with your presence.
Oh for God's sake. Now we have the 'church lady'---Is it SATAN????? Please-you probably don't have the foggiest idea what Episcopalians believe or even what Anglicanism is. Stick with the Pat Robertson's and John Hagees, and let the thinkers think.
one answer: it matters little how your church is "grouped" - just make sure it teaches Christ died for our sins & rose again. A few Episcopal churches still teach this actually, but lots of them are in trouble with the official Org, which is suing churches that want to leave for the buildings & funds they paid for themselves.
Ah Spong. Newark indeed decreased by 40% during his term. My condolences. I don't know what to say except that Christ will be victorious, don't let the dogs demoralize you. God bless.
He's a perverted drag queen with the stage name "Quean Lutibelle". He's a member of the executive council and founder of integrity. He spread the rot in a more under the radar way than Spong, but more effectively I imagine. In another 10 years when TEC is MCC, he'll be mainstream.
I fully acknowledge the presence of conservatives in the church and their right to be there. However, by and large, Episcopalians are a thinking people sans the nauseatingly obnoxious hell-fire, eternal torture group that is present in other Protestant congregations. They get the most publicity because of their self-righteous, narrow ideologies, and make thinking Christians a laughing-stock. That is all I meant.
hmm - "Episcopalians are a thinking people sans the nauseatingly obnoxious hell-fire, eternal torture group that is present in other Protestant congregations." - I'm sorry you encountered some churches like this. I suppose the reason so many conservatives are leaving is they don't want to be "nauseating" to you any more. But people nauseating you shouldn't cause you to turn to silliness like Spong, you should read some theo & hermeneutics, it can be interesting.
Spong hasn't read much hermeneutics, what he misses is even taught in some catechism classes to teenagers (unless he's intentionally missing these things). That's why he isn't in any peer-reviewed journals, it's basically pulp theology. re. his remarks on Galileo, for example, visit the Wikipedia page on Galileo. Loads of straw man args - criticizing positions that no one believes in in the first place. And vitriolic rhetoric / demonizing those who disagree.
John Shelby Spong is one of the reasons I am proud to call myself Episcopalian. The only problem is that EVEN in this denomination, the (hard swallow here) conservatives are still are present with their narrow, rigid voices. Why don't all the conservatives just finally become Southern Baptists? Assemby of God? Why not? Do us a favor conservatives, LEAVE US ALONE!!!!!
JS Spong is incredibly ignorant of hermeneutics and is a lot less intellectually credible than those he criticizes as being "backwater fundamentalists." He's not published in peer reviewed journals and theologians don't even want to mention him because his scholarship is such crap. If thinking Spong is wrong makes me a fundamentalist than so be it.
So we leave you alone by accepting the lousy scholarship of Spong, or what? Why not find a church yourself that's into intellectually credible sources and theology? Go with the Lutherans, the Presbys, the Catholics, or the Baptists, Pentecostalists, Russian or Greek Orthodox, Mennonites - you'll learn something - TEC is pretty insular.
mlh40, I'd also prefer to avoid argument. In the Episcopal Church, when Bishop Katherine says, "The resurrection is so NOT important!" I will say, "Yes, it is incredibly important." And then, my friend, we are arguing. When she is in a situation where she is in the minority, and the majority say "it is important," she says - "it's diversity, so I belong here, and have my right to say it's not important". When she is in the majority she says: "don't argue, show respect, get outta here."
Remember folks...Spong is not TEC, he is just ONE member. I can counter his views with many conservative Episcopalians. Do NOT fear those whom you disagree with.
boomac62, Spong is a bishop in TEC in good standing who says things like people who believe in the resurrection are all nutter fundamentalists. Schori invited him to teach her clergy when she was a diocesan bishop. You DO have to be able to stomach your church keeping a guy like that as a bishop in good standing to stay in TEC. It's not really a matter of fearing him - more, ok, this is just to crazy, a different gospel.
I understand Spong is retired and a thorn in the side of many Angliv\cans..as Rowan Williams himself said "... I can't in any way see Bishop Spong's theses as representing a defensible or even an interesting Christian future. .. I want to know whether the Christian past scripture and tradition, really appears to him as empty and sterile as (Spong suggests)."
I'm not an Episcopalian either, but I do enjoy diversity. TEC can survive him. And he may be right on the doctrine of hell.
I think we all are fans of diversity, only with a diverse interpretation of what the acceptable boundaries are. Those who seem very "narrow" in some ways, often are going very deep in other ways. TEC's failure to seriously reject Spong means its interpretation of diversity means a church also having bishops who essentially deny Christ. I have no problem with atheists who deny Christ - bishops doing so is something completely different.
There are still some faithful TEC parishes though.
HEY! I can't turn my back on you for 3 days LOL. The question is, what is anyone going to do about it? Well, I'm going to do something about it. Though reading through the Canons I can see how tough it can be when someone is retired. I have questions, I want answers.
hey episcopalgreg, good for you. There's freedom of religion in this country, and the leadership of TEC is free to do what they want ... they don't have to expect though that they'll take us where they want to go. I thank God that there are still many faithful Christians in TEC like you.
Anglicans believe in the creeds and Scriptures as "the rule and ultimate standard of faith." These are good principles - you should belong to a church which embraces similar ones, be it Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox.
Unfortunately the top leadership of TEC is speaking out against things like the resurrection and as such it's trying to make TEC itself into a splinter group.
Really who cares if you are "splinter group" or not. Follow Christ, this is what is important.
Hoo boy... just google 'spong 12 theses' or 'schori "not mechanism"' for starters. You can also consult standfirm's thread (211 entries so far) documenting TEC heresies. Most recently, they've elected an ordained Zen Buddhist priest as Bishop of North Michigan. Buddhism with its incompatible tenets effectively denies the resurrection.
See the 'Choose This Day' video posted at anglicandecision for a good intro to the issues.
And keep in mind - these are references to statements by TEC leadership themselves. Their own words in their own context. They are responsible for the current exodus of orthodox Anglicans from TEC and the new orthodox Anglican province in America (ACNA) with which the province of Nigeria has recently declared itself to be in communion.
I'm going to have to answer this in parts cause I need to get a haircut LOL. Spong is a nut. He was born in the town I live and was rector at my church so I get to see a large photo of him on the wall if I don't avert my eyes.
He does not speak for TEC and I'm not sure how he can consider himself Christian anymore.
Spong is still a bishop in good standing in TEC and his books sell like hotcakes, people say, "oh look a bishop denies the divinity of christ & the resurrection so how could it possibly be true." TEC should have taken care of this. So Spong doesn't "speak for TEC" - BUT - his teachings are tolerated in TEC. I.e., you can, as a bishop, say that people who believe Christ rose from the dead are all morons.
I don't know enough about the polity to comment or give opinion on standing. You are right though, he can do a lot of damage but his followers are his followers and if he lost standing it wouldn't matter. It might make it worse.
It is unfortunate that a lot of church goers overlook reason and in fact that Scripture is #1 even if the detractors don't agree with how some of us interpret.
As far as Kevin Thew Forrester goes, elected and ordained are two different things. Democracy is messy and elections have concequenses but please don't say that Forrester is part of the top leadership. He simply isn't. And what you say about incompatible tenets is also true with TEC's own ordination vows. I'm sure we will both be watching this one.
Actually, Kevin Thew Forrester did not get the consent to be bishop. The diocesan standing committees have until July 19 to change their minds, the bishops have until July 25, but it's not likely to happen. As for John Shelby Spong -- well -- he literally spits in the face of The Nicene Creed. But then, sadly, many Episcopalians probably cross their fingers at one time or another during the service. If you don't believe the Creed, you should leave. I'm certainly not leaving because I do believe.
I think as a layperson, if you don't believe the Creed, and don't want to, there's little point. We certainly must have our doors open to people who honestly inquire or are struggling in faith!
But if you are a teacher, if you don't believe the creeds, yes, there are big problems, and you should get help with faith, or leave.
Update: Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori on July 27 notified the standing committee of the Diocese of Northern Michigan that the necessary consents to the ordination and consecration of the Rev. Kevin Thew Forrester as bishop were not received within the prescribed time period and therefore his election was "null and void."
Darn you are so correct!!!!! Bishop Spong was confronted with a 'gay' candidate for ministery who was serving as sextant in my little Church in Hope, NJ. He asked him to 'keep it in his pants' for ordination. Guy was ordinated and stood up before congregation to say, "I'm gay. This is my Life-Mate and my adopted AIDs children." Half the congregation walked out never to attend again. Spong would retire and Father Bill Potter after destroying an active Church would eventually leave,
I tried sending you some links but they didn't come out - I think maybe Youtube rejects posts with links. Look at Schori's statements in the Spring 2007 issue of Parabola mag
Wow! More than one account, that's amazing. I didn't realize I was dealing with such a resourceful individual. Please accept my aplogies for any offense I've given...
Physician, heal thyself. :) Maybe if you had a normal sex life you wouldn't need to attend a church that obsesses over justifying sexual perversion.
And if I tried to steal your property and lie to your children, I'd assume you'd have issues as well. It's not always a bad thing to 'have issues'. ;>)
Amen, but it's probably too late. Look at the majority of leadership within TEC. They are not merely erring, they need to be witnessed to since they are basically agnostics. TEC has allowed the 'via media' to be carried to absurd extremes by people who lack the integrity to leave their orders when they lose their faith.
Why should I be a member of the Episcopalian Church, which is itself a splinter from the Anglican Church, which is itself a splinter from the Catholic Church? To quote the presentation: "So which makes more sense? To be a part of yet another splinter or to be a part of..." The Catholic Church?
Does not the logic of this very presentation actually lead someone to consider the Catholic Church?
I am Episcopalian,have been for 15 years now.I have found more peace and scriptural knowledge her than in any other church.We follow the teaching of God's word and do not send people on guilt trips as some other churches do.I have been formerly Catholic,Baptist,AME Zion,Pentecostal,Seventh Day Adventist,Apostolic.I have now found the church that God intended me to stay in.God bless you all.
"I have found more peace and scriptural knowledge here than in any other church."
So, are you in Dio Pittsburgh, Dio Quincy, or Dio Fort Worth? Or did you move with +Schofield to the Southern Cone?
Seriously, do you honestly think it is 'scriptural' to studiously avoid feeling guilt, even when you do wrong? Why do you think you can simply assert your church is scriptural, when all evidence is to the contrary? Have you found that that approach works in any other area in life? Please, wake up.
I should make myself clearer by stating that not all Episcopal churches(or ministers of)teach the same way,or explain the scriptures in the same manner.I also have possibly done an injustice to some other denominations by generalizing about their teachings since I have not been exposed to ALL!Different ministers may give varied interpretations of the very same texts of the Bible.Please note that I never said that my church teaching was perfect.If I have knowledge of wrong,I don't accept it.
It's official. Lambeth was a complete failure and didn't accomplish anything except for xRoskam's racist slander. GAFCON is the way to go! Yaba-Indaba-Doo!!!
There a lot of splinters. But is that bad? I wish that the Episcopal church and the churches that came from it could come together, the Presbyterian Church did. You have to compromise. Against that you do lose identity and we have lost people at our church. So maybe a NEW Christian way. Based on working together locally, for the same purpose of spreading the Gospel.
But a variety of Christian churches with the goal of spreading the Gospel is never bad. Is it?
Holy Moley! Folk get really fired up, don't we? Anyhow, love and peace. May many blessings ensue. For goodness sake: take a break. Happy days ahead. See you later. Preferably in heaven ;)
On all these pages of commentary, almost everything s responded to with negative ratings and responses. That does not reflect very well on the supposed ideology of Christianity, in any branch. It seems like another way to dissassociate with other people by claiming membership to denomination of a subsect, of a religion. More people have been killed over religious discords than anything else in our history, which is the opposite of religion's purpose. What a paradox
Actually more people have been killed by atheistic secular regimes. You can't really infer that much from a negative rating, and you are probably reading too much into it. Is a negative rating given because I dislike someone's shirt, or because I consider their teaching harmful? Take the log out of your own eye before you jump to such conclusions.
Not true at all, atheists have and always will reamain a minority that has proven rather peaceful juxtaposed to major religious associations. How do you account for the inquisitions? crusades/holy wars? salem witch trials? even 9/11? Millions of lives have been claimed in the name of a deity or through one's supposed, transcended divine will. To re-direct blame or downplay established religion's part in the consistent disruption of peace throughout history is absurd.
Were they really the minority in Soviet Russia? How can you even say that? And I reject your division into religious/nonreligious. Not all religions are the same, any more than all Americans are the same. 9/11 and the Crusades were caused by Islamic agression. The Crusades were primarily defensive.
I am glad you found a good church, Dedicednu. Hang on to it and be involved. But don't condemn, yes condemn, other denominations. The Episcopal chruches I went to were great to terrible. One did not know I was there until I was almost out the door.
I loved one Episcopal church I wished I could join but they were too far away. I felt love there. I also loved some of the Baptist churches I went to, they were loving and engaging. So don't condemn.
Actually, if I said those churches were going to hell then THAT would be condemning. There is nothing wrong or 'sinful' about generalizing what the rest of the world already knows.
So the only way to condemn people is to claim they're going to hell? Yeah, well... I think unsubstantiated assertions like yours could also be classed as condemnation. Why don't you go read a book or something (like the Bible, if you have one) instead of making silly slanderous comments in this combox?
I love the Episcopal Church. They are the only church that I've seen that honestly welcomes all people just as Christ would have done. Baptists are too busy condemning and Catholics are too busy indoctrinating to care about Christ. They put politics first. The Episcopal Church put Christ first. It's the only church that allows for dialogue and common sense.
Despite all the negative ratings from insecure Christians, dsindc hit the nail on the head.
But of course you are not trying to indoctrinate anyone... And the Episcopal church is totally non-political... (MDGs?). But I think your biggest howler, given the PB's, Chane's, and Spong's beliefs is that they "put Christ first". How can you "put first" what you believe to be a fictional character? They put property first, as the lawsuits show. They teach falsely for filthy lucres sake. They entrap you in your lifestyle, Dedicednu, so you will continue to pay them to validate your lifestyle.
Do I take that as an admission you *do* actually pay them to validate your lifestyle?
It's hard to take your critique seriously that your reading this thread for over a year is somehow wholesome, but my occasional commenting on it is not... Are my arguments that good that you wish not to see them? Maybe you will be my first successful youtube witness encounter. I sow the seed. May God give the increase.
CAndiron,I see you make many "generalizations" as I have mistakenly done in the past!In your "theys".I speak for myself,as a Christian first,as a member of the Episcopalian church next.All members of any "church" do not believe the same,reason being that each personal ability to integrate and divide the word differs! And Christ as a "fictional character"? You sound quite bitter,for some reason,quite prejudiced in matters of which you know nothing of!Lawsuits? You'll find many in ALL CHURCHES!
the episcopal church is a splinter group itself. about 5 years ago, i switched from baptist to Catholic. the Christian Church had to exist ever since Apostolic era. no protestant or baptist sect has been around that long.
Oh please, are you lying or just ill informed? Armstrong was cleared of all charges months ago. He's just another example of how sleazy, dishonest and bullying the TEc liberals really are.
Bishop Akinola responded to the THOUSANDS of "orthodox" Episcopalians who begged him to oversee them because their own liberal, revisionists bishops were out to lunch and wouldn't know how to preach the life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ if they were held at gunpoint.
Overseas bishops, as well as those from the continuum would not have been received unless there was a need and parishes to receive them.
The homoerotic and univeralist leadership of TEC caused all this havoc. No wonder.
Get over your personal anger and issues and get a book on the History of Christianity and read it ALL.
Then we can talk. As far as "Big Pete" goes, he is still in the Anglican Communion and can't criticize anyone as far as I'm concerned.
The Archbishop of Canterbury, their titular head, is as liberal and inept as TEC's Presiding Bishopess Schori and any association with them is poisoned from the beggining.
I personally do not think there is anything wrong with splinter groups. At some point, all denominations are splinter groups. That is what the reformation was all about.
Oh yes, the stats you list about TEC are quite old. 2.2 Million has now become a Sunday morning attendance of about 800,000.
The Episcopal Church reportedly is losing about 800 members a week, many of them clergy that are not being replaced fast enough.
If she would go back to preaching Christ and Him crucified instead of preaching the virtues of the "Millineum Development Goals", TEC might be able to become the Grand Ole Tree she was, instead of the withered fig plant she has become.
Also, Presiding Bishopess Schori has tried to depose Bishop Schofield in the past,and only recently succeeded in doing so because he "led his diocese out of the doctrine and discipline of TEC".
Of course, her "discipline" is reserved only for those who are orthodox or traditional in their faith and morals.
The best that she can do is declare the diocese "vacant" which is mere semantics.
The Diocese of San Joaquin voted canonically in their last convention to leave.
Well, technically, the Episcopal church has mutated into a secular organization, so you could say the Diocese of San Joaquin was orphaned. It has since placed itself under the pastoral oversight of of the Southern Cone province, led by Archbishop Gregory Venables.
If you really wanted to be pedantic, you could say they 'realigned with another province' in the Anglican Communion, rather than left. The Anglican connection is the primary one, in any case.
"THE" Episcopal Church has long since departed the ancient orthodox Christian faith that made it great.
Revisionsists, priestesses and bishopesses of TEC have traded the Gospel of Jesus Christ for a social gospel of "diversity, tolerance, and inclusion", all to be defined by them of course.
Your own Presiding Bishopess, Schori, said of John 14:6 "..to say Jesus is the only way is to put God in an "awfully small box". The "slinters" left out of necessity.
I disagree with the CONCEPT, ACCUSATION, or NOTION that the Episcopal Church is falling into so-called "apostasy", that is. Just wanted to clarify that.
rjky1986, I'm sure you'd agree it would be apostate for the church to be accepting and inclusive of necrophilia or paganism. Your comment is too simplistic. Is it love not to warn people that thier house is burning down, because you don't want to upset them?
I'd also ask you to consider that the Episcopal Church seeks to rob people of assurance of salvation and the existence of God. If you think I'm exaggerating, just google "John Shelby Spong", whom the Presiding Bishop supports.
I disagree totally with the Episcopal Church falling into so-called "apostasy". Most of the people in the Episcopal Church that I've ever met are accepting, inclusive, truly Christ-like people if you ask me. Condemnation and fundamentalism (often under the term "orthodoxy") seems to be prevalent among many Christians and specific denominations in the U.S. today.
And, shall I say, (even if my opinion may be an unpopular one here)dsindc makes good points, especially about biblical literalism.
CAndiron, nobody said anything about a 'new religion'. I have tried vainly to understand what is essentially a new approach, somewhat unique to America of biblical fundamentalism. Nobody has honestly responded to any of my questions. My perversion? Ad hominem attacks point to the weakness of your argument. Thanks to all of you. I've decided I don't want to be a fundamentalist. I sure did feel the love though!!
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Thank you Imam. I like you no doubt, miss the good old days when us God fearing Christians could burn homos at the stake. If only we could make women dress like nuns - no, the old style ones. Oh, wait, my kid is getting out of line- as it says in Exodus 21, v. 17 "whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death". Just wait till I get my hands on that little demon...
Interestingly enough, when someone disagrees with you, you go ahead and accuse people of homo-hating and killing--which is pretty immature. Of course Jesus had problems with the religious leaders of the day, but He wasn't out of line because He is God--He would know, wouldn't He? Look at Scripture in context. The Christology may be termed differently, but is no different.
Well Mr. Honest, I guess I'd rather be playing at being immature than playing God. Your reasoning is hard to follow. 'Of course Jesus had problems with the religious leaders...'. And why as you imply, is this a given? Jesus had 'problems' with the religious leaders because their religion had become legalistic. It would appear much like you, they had turned their religion into a dead icon.
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If you feel accused you make that choice. Fundamental Christians struggle with things like irony, and they certainly don't like discourse. I'm sure you feel morally superior, and see yourself as something of a biblical scholar. That being the case your eminence, please explain to me the meaning of the scripture I quoted? Can I go kill my kid? No, really. I need an answer. And it appears you feel well prepared to give one. Fire away!
Ex. 21:17-This verse, like Lev. 18:22, which states the immorality of homosexuality, is both a product of its time and a spiritual truth. No one's saying they didn't execute offenders. I think it's pretty blunt that it's wrong to curse your parents and to have sex with someone of your gender. That's the application of the verses today, proving even a "dated" passage is timeless in meaning.
You dodge my questions and frankly you're not making sense. Spiritual truths transcend time, they are hardly the product of a particular era. Yes, if you take this translation literally it is pretty "blunt". Getting the green light to take out your kid is well, yep, blunt. So, are you saying that is the application as you put it? I can kill my kid if he gets out of line? You have not answered that question and I don't think you want to.
While you're at it, tell me when something is metaphor, or is anything mataphor? When does scripture have to be interpreted in its cultural and historic context? Or does it ever? Do you think some people use religion to feel morally superior - when in fact they're covering up a sort of existential inferiority?
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I'm a pediatric oncologist and deal with quite a lot of very sick young people and children. I am calling on your twisted 'theology' because I so often see the damage it does. I express my faith in my work, not by throwing poorly understood scriptural passages as emotionally vulnerable people. I suspect many around you find your pseudo Christianity boring at best.
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Seriously, you are anything but honest. Scripture is all over the place. The Christology of Mark is very different from that of John. Religion is not an icon. That's idol worship. Ignorance is not bliss. Maybe you would be happiest with Fred Phelps' group. Interesting, Jesus had problems with nobody.. except the religious authorities of his time. Think about that message. I think you've missed it.
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A word of good cheer is in order. I have read that one of the recent Archbishops of Canterbury commented on fundamentalists in America. "Oh yes, we've heard of your fundamentalists in America. We have every confidence they will find their place in heaven. We sense however that the angels will be somewhat muted in their rejoicing upon their arrival." Amen.
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Finally, just a thought. Religion is in many ways like a Rorschach test. If you don't know what that is, it involves an ink blot, and patients suffering emotional problems are asked to express what they see. If the patient expresses negative, destructive, fearful concepts it provides significant insight into that individual's world view.
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Your attitudes about religion concern me. You see a punitive deity full of wrath. Do you see the world as a threatening place? Is there an individual causing you anxiety? I suggest you seek counseling. By the way, "poor little Rowan" - stop that crap by the way.... was not the author of that statement. Please for the sake of those around you get off your pompous high horse. For your own sake, get a mental health check.
And would you like to think up for me what is truth, seeing as how you appear to be able to judge what is the correct world view to have? I know without your "help" that God is loving, that's He's merciful--but there has to exist an alternative display of nature to show what good is. And I didn't say "little"--the guy is taller than the Pope. And in any case, Rowan still has to deal with a sterile, alcohol-drenched country with barely any evangelical activity anyway.
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And 'poor' is somehow less condescending than 'little'? No, you have in your own unique way presented yourself as having the truth. I have merely asked you questions which you choose not to address. My child still waits for the verdict. My question addresses your literal application of scripture.
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By the way, there is little evangelical or even Christian activity in EUROPE as a whole. 20%of Spanish report going to mass during a given month. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is telling us something. Our tradtional approaches to Christianity are not working.
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You began this insanity by making a condemnation - homosexuals and female church leaders. I have condemned no one. You refuse to answer significant questions, and finally you trash an entire country ! Been to the U.K.? I have. Much less poverty, drug abuse, and much much less crime. I really think you need to see someone about your anger. Something is wrong.
I answered your questions on biblical literalism, particularly Lev. 18:22 and Ex. 21:17. I have neither "trashed" nor "condemned" no one. I'm not so much for tradition as I am for sharing the love and gospel of Christ in a way applicable to the world today. Because I have beliefs--which are founded in the original outline for Christianity--and you base your philosophy on your mood, I think someone's wrong, wouldn't you say?
"I think it's pretty blunt that it's wrong to curse your parents and to have sex with someone of your gender. That's the application of the verses today, proving even a "dated" passage is timeless in meaning. "
---- So what does this mean? I am trying to make this easy.
It means that it was immoral then, punishable by death in that culture and day, and is immoral know, b/c Christ has come and did so to fulfill the law. It still stands even though Jesus sets us free.
So are you saying I am to take these passages literally? The 'application' ( a weird word to pick ) is still relevent? i.e. I can kill my kid? You cannot have it both ways. Answer !
Yes, we all feel the love. So you're "not so much for tradition". Cryptic once again. Or maybe just confused. I guess my kid gets a pass. Beliefs should be based on scripture, tradition, and reason with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Sadly too many of us use what we want for purely self serving reasons. When you use terms like "apostasy", you place yourself in the role of accuser. Be careful. Very careful.
While I warmly thank you with endowing me with such romantic attributes like "cryptic," I will logically explain my statement, as I have my others. I'm not a traditionalist. I love the old liturgies, the hymns, prayers, creeds--but I sooner spread the Gospel than than just my way of church worship. I'm not going even say what I think you mean by "be very careful," but the Lord is my shepherd and you should act like He's yours too. God bless.
Oh please. Read 2 Ti 4:2-4 and Gal 1. If you think the world needs a new religion, fine, go ahead and invent one, but don't call it Christianity. If you are ashamed of your perversion, perhaps you should be repenting of it instead of vainly trying to convince other people to accept it.
These idiots think they can steal other people's land to fund their apostasy. They act out of spite, rather than Christian charity. Visit babybluecafe dot blogspot dot com for update on how they are failing.
I am Catholic and know many God fearing God loving Episcopalians. I am so tired of Christians in this country...who belong to Churches that are a few years old....bashing everyone. What a narrow vision of God to think you can bash others and you have the truth? Of course, people who bash never truly know the thing they're tearing down....I mean really.
I'm still divided over the issue of gay clergy, but I still think the Episcopal Church is wonderful, and I'm tired of all the theo-cons following the herd in yet another string of fashionable rantings and ravings.
TEC actually just made a good argument for the Catholic Church in this spot. If you want the original, forget TEC and all its heresies and foofy theospeak and head for Rome. It's not hard, all roads lead there.
I believe this to be very true. If the branches have withered and are dying, they must be pruned, that the roots may surive and put forth new growth. The root IS the Catholic church. I can see this, and I'm not even Catholic.
Heh heh. I'm not Catholic, still I must give this a hearty AMEN!!! TEC is poisonous anti Christian atheism. Just flee. John Shelby Spong has conquered, indoctrinated, and marinated the minds of TEC leaders (including marky-boy).
Have you ever read the 12 theses? I think he endangers people by preaching his atheism and encouraging them to sin. Why do you think it's okay for him to pose before believers as a Christian and take away their hope and turn them towards self-worship?
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This like everything else about TEC is just crap!! Steeped in apostasy, heresy and soon a new schism, TEC is a broad way to damnation. Stay away from these sick souls. Run for the sake of your souls.
You seem to think numbers are all that matter. If that's the case join a CANA congregation, then you'll be part of a 17 million strong group (that's orthodox to boot).
Seabury was consecrated by Scottish Episcopal bishops and was followed by bishops consecrated in the Church of England, so majority of early bishops always were CofE-consecrated. The Scottish Episcopal Church and The Episcopal Church (USA) are now both part of the Anglican Communion.
However, your video fails to address any of the root causes of the division or answer any of the issues that are divide even those that haven't formerly left the ECUSA (yet).
However, your video fails to address any of the root causes of the division or answer any of the issues that are still divide even those that haven't formerly left the ECUSA (yet).
I must admit reading the websites of some of the splinter groups is humorous (No, really, we are the REAL GENUINE thing, just don't confuse with that other splinter group. We are the Anglican Church IN America, not the Anglican Church OF America). It is like something from a Monty Python movie.
In all fairness, one might call the Episcopal Church a splinter group of the Roman Catholic Church, and most Greek Orthodox Christians would say that the Roman Catholic Church is a departure from the One True Holy Apostalic Catholic etc etc Church as it was before the West lapsed into heresy and error.
If you are Jewish or Protestant, take a look at the 8th Commandment. If you are Lutheran or Catholic take a look at the 9th commandment. Then come back here and apologize.
If you are Roman Catholic or Lutheran, take a look at the 8th commandment. If you are Jewish or Protestant, take a look at the 9th commandment. We'll be waiting for your apology.
I'd rather join a service organization than be a part of The Episcopal Church. TEC has completely lost it's theological moorings. Most of the Anglican Communion shuns it and the reason so many splinter churches have started and most Episcopal churches are emptying out is because they have no theology left. Sad
1dogsamson 8 months ago
I love my fellow Anglicans, to include those in my marginally attended Episcopal Church...however, when will the day come that Presiding Bishop Schori spends 1/100th of the same amount of time she spends talking about "diversity", talking about the abomination of abortion, which has murdered MILLIONS of our Lord's children, our brothers and sisters? Where do Priests of ECUSA have all their pro-life videos here on Youtube? Where is Gene Robinson on the issue? Do tell.
ScottMacFie 9 months ago
You are getting hung up by a poor understanding of church history and of the meaning of words. Episcopal means that a denomination is presided over by Bishops. Just as the word catholic means universal. It does not mean the Catholic Church unless you capatalize it. I'm dreadfully concerned that you do not know this. I certainly must question your religious education.
differnet 11 months ago
First off this is not a good reason to be part of the tec. We welcome you but if you like steak, I am not going to condemn you for eating it. There are many ways to Christ- not just tec. Secondly how dare they actually treat women like they matter. And how dare they act in a welcoming manner to minorites -Jesus would never do that.... Oh wait yes he did. Oh wait it was the Pharisees that pissed him off not the sinners and tax collectors.
pimaggot 1 year ago
I sat for years as one of a handful of traditionalists in a very liberal Episcopal church listening to a supply priest sermonize in support of homosexual marriage. I finally pointed out to him that he has never sermonized so fervently for any of the 10 commandments - and that in his adore for gay marriage he is quite willing to break bread with those who don't even accept the deity of Christ to disparage those of us who do not accept gay marriage.
DancingTillIDie 1 year ago
@DancingTillIDie I asked him if you can be an Episcopalian and not believe in gay marriage - he said Yes. But eventually I tired of having my cjharacter disparaged and left for a 1928 BCP Anglican parish.
It breaks my heart to leave a church my father helped to found 50 years ago. Please stop the inhibitions, law suits, and excommunications. Don't change our liturgy. Stop hating your traditions and traditionalists. I will always love the Episcopal church.
DancingTillIDie 1 year ago
at 1:37: "...claim to be Anglican..."
Does this imply they're not? The other 50 'splinters' are far more Anglican than Kathrine can ever pretend she is.
at 1:37: "TEC has common life in it's doctrine, discipline, and worship..."
The only thing the TEC churches have in common is that their doctrine is unbiblical. Don't even think of using that to link to the rest of the Anglican faith. That's insulting. GAFCON and the Global South Convention show just how far TEC has drifted into lala land.
kuehling83 1 year ago
Why not? Because it a doctrinal disaster! The question is WHY be a part of that!? The splinter is the correct Christian response to Kathrine (the circus ringleader) and her quest to rid the American province of all orthodox bishops.
kuehling83 1 year ago 2
The Episcopal church in America itself is a splinter group that separated from the the Church of England after the American Revolution. It later reunited under the Anglican Communion. The Church of England is itself a splinter group that broker away from the Roman Catholic Church. Why become part of a splinter group, because the Episcopal Church has turned its back on the word of God, the Anglican Communion, and Church History. And is actually forcing out all faithful christian witness.
theatwo 1 year ago
The answer to your question is that in attempting to ordain women and in allowing women to act out the roles of bishop and priest, the Episcopal Church has given up the Apostolic Succession and lost the validity of her sacraments.
rioamigo 1 year ago
Nice video, but it misses the issues within the church. What kind of church allows a Bishop to be in control of Diocese for 25 years when he denies the resurrection and the virgin birth? What kind of church ordains homosexuals? What kind of church has a bishop who mocks the Bible?
I'm sorry for what has happened to you. But you have run headlong into this apostasy. You will, in the end, be nothing more than a santuary religion for people who do not recognize the authority of scripture.
SkiesVibrant 1 year ago
Too many shepherds not enough sheep to go round? Nay, too many wolves in shepherds clothing and not enough mutton!
DavesHome 1 year ago
scribd (dot) com/nb812
DreamsofMajesty 1 year ago
Protestants fracture their institutions. Heresy begets heresy. Schism begets schism. Es muy triste.
DominicanoOR 1 year ago
To invade a church 300 years prior. Manipulating the flock by craft unknown. Presently has set up a group of fleshly oriented people who according to their church have the power to administer to your spirits. Bringing them in and out to the desire that they live by. Equates to homosexual living being promoted not only in the church but also the communications and powers unseen but manifested in flesh in all earth's children of the nondiscerning. This is what this stain of a church represents.
enjoixander 2 years ago
I can't blame you for saying that 50heaven, it's painful when mainstream Christians put Anglicans and Episcopalians in the same boat, but I understand, and TEC has succeeded in convincing a few others in other Anglican provinces as well. But you sure are more than right to suspect Anglicans in general since we have such huge problems with TEC. Before you work with Anglicans, make sure they serve our Lord.
minckminck 2 years ago
The Episcopal/Anglican church is a splinter group itself and a nasty one at that. I'll decline.
50heaven 2 years ago
Tango, few conservative Christians even know who Schori is, and few of those who blow the whistle on her denying the resurrection / the divinity of Christ are really all that conservative. I don't think they mean she has no right to do so - the question is whether the Anglican Communion wants a member province who denies these things. That's not exactly a "freedom of speech" issue or "shutting everyone else up."
minckminck 2 years ago
Tango, MaryWaterton's comment is the only one here that was downrated so it doesn't show any more, and you are complaining about "censorship"? I've presented facts about Spong to help people think about TEC's "own merits" with no replies, and you think this is all about someone wanting to shut you up? You are free here Tango to say what you like, and I do hope that you do think about these things.
People, Episcopalianism in most places is VERY VERY different from Anglicanism, don't confuse them.
minckminck 2 years ago
nice video, nice church. But only the Petrine Office can assure visible unity. Perhaps that is not important, but splintering can only go so far before all you have is splinters.
rollypollyjoe 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
When the Episcopal Church began ordaining homosexuals, they gave themselves over to Satan without pretense. If you are a christian, flee from this evil organization. You are disgracing Jesus Christ by sanctioning this abomination with your presence.
MaryWaterton 2 years ago
Oh for God's sake. Now we have the 'church lady'---Is it SATAN????? Please-you probably don't have the foggiest idea what Episcopalians believe or even what Anglicanism is. Stick with the Pat Robertson's and John Hagees, and let the thinkers think.
phoenixtimes2 2 years ago
one answer: it matters little how your church is "grouped" - just make sure it teaches Christ died for our sins & rose again. A few Episcopal churches still teach this actually, but lots of them are in trouble with the official Org, which is suing churches that want to leave for the buildings & funds they paid for themselves.
minckminck 2 years ago
Thank you for reminding who I am.
peterann1 2 years ago
Apostate? Sorely deceived? That is, if you haven't left for ACNA yet.
CAndiron 2 years ago 2
YES!!! Rule of Spong in HIS diocese did long term damage. Now my litle Church is one step from being a mission. BCP 1928 FOREVER!!!
peterann1 2 years ago 4
Ah Spong. Newark indeed decreased by 40% during his term. My condolences. I don't know what to say except that Christ will be victorious, don't let the dogs demoralize you. God bless.
CAndiron 2 years ago 5
I guess you don't know of Louis Crew
peterann1 2 years ago
He's a perverted drag queen with the stage name "Quean Lutibelle". He's a member of the executive council and founder of integrity. He spread the rot in a more under the radar way than Spong, but more effectively I imagine. In another 10 years when TEC is MCC, he'll be mainstream.
CAndiron 2 years ago
Beautiful music!
God bless The Church of England!
jonathanministries 2 years ago
I fully acknowledge the presence of conservatives in the church and their right to be there. However, by and large, Episcopalians are a thinking people sans the nauseatingly obnoxious hell-fire, eternal torture group that is present in other Protestant congregations. They get the most publicity because of their self-righteous, narrow ideologies, and make thinking Christians a laughing-stock. That is all I meant.
phoenixtimes2 2 years ago
hmm - "Episcopalians are a thinking people sans the nauseatingly obnoxious hell-fire, eternal torture group that is present in other Protestant congregations." - I'm sorry you encountered some churches like this. I suppose the reason so many conservatives are leaving is they don't want to be "nauseating" to you any more. But people nauseating you shouldn't cause you to turn to silliness like Spong, you should read some theo & hermeneutics, it can be interesting.
minckminck 2 years ago
What's wrong with Spong?
phoenixtimes2 2 years ago
Spong hasn't read much hermeneutics, what he misses is even taught in some catechism classes to teenagers (unless he's intentionally missing these things). That's why he isn't in any peer-reviewed journals, it's basically pulp theology. re. his remarks on Galileo, for example, visit the Wikipedia page on Galileo. Loads of straw man args - criticizing positions that no one believes in in the first place. And vitriolic rhetoric / demonizing those who disagree.
minckminck 2 years ago
John Shelby Spong is one of the reasons I am proud to call myself Episcopalian. The only problem is that EVEN in this denomination, the (hard swallow here) conservatives are still are present with their narrow, rigid voices. Why don't all the conservatives just finally become Southern Baptists? Assemby of God? Why not? Do us a favor conservatives, LEAVE US ALONE!!!!!
phoenixtimes2 2 years ago
JS Spong is incredibly ignorant of hermeneutics and is a lot less intellectually credible than those he criticizes as being "backwater fundamentalists." He's not published in peer reviewed journals and theologians don't even want to mention him because his scholarship is such crap. If thinking Spong is wrong makes me a fundamentalist than so be it.
minckminck 2 years ago
So we leave you alone by accepting the lousy scholarship of Spong, or what? Why not find a church yourself that's into intellectually credible sources and theology? Go with the Lutherans, the Presbys, the Catholics, or the Baptists, Pentecostalists, Russian or Greek Orthodox, Mennonites - you'll learn something - TEC is pretty insular.
minckminck 2 years ago
mlh40, I'd also prefer to avoid argument. In the Episcopal Church, when Bishop Katherine says, "The resurrection is so NOT important!" I will say, "Yes, it is incredibly important." And then, my friend, we are arguing. When she is in a situation where she is in the minority, and the majority say "it is important," she says - "it's diversity, so I belong here, and have my right to say it's not important". When she is in the majority she says: "don't argue, show respect, get outta here."
minckminck 2 years ago
Remember folks...Spong is not TEC, he is just ONE member. I can counter his views with many conservative Episcopalians. Do NOT fear those whom you disagree with.
boomac62 3 years ago
boomac62, Spong is a bishop in TEC in good standing who says things like people who believe in the resurrection are all nutter fundamentalists. Schori invited him to teach her clergy when she was a diocesan bishop. You DO have to be able to stomach your church keeping a guy like that as a bishop in good standing to stay in TEC. It's not really a matter of fearing him - more, ok, this is just to crazy, a different gospel.
minckminck 3 years ago 2
I understand Spong is retired and a thorn in the side of many Angliv\cans..as Rowan Williams himself said "... I can't in any way see Bishop Spong's theses as representing a defensible or even an interesting Christian future. .. I want to know whether the Christian past scripture and tradition, really appears to him as empty and sterile as (Spong suggests)."
I'm not an Episcopalian either, but I do enjoy diversity. TEC can survive him. And he may be right on the doctrine of hell.
Peace
boomac62 3 years ago
I think we all are fans of diversity, only with a diverse interpretation of what the acceptable boundaries are. Those who seem very "narrow" in some ways, often are going very deep in other ways. TEC's failure to seriously reject Spong means its interpretation of diversity means a church also having bishops who essentially deny Christ. I have no problem with atheists who deny Christ - bishops doing so is something completely different.
There are still some faithful TEC parishes though.
minckminck 3 years ago 2
fair enough...makes me glad I'm a Quaker. peace
boomac62 3 years ago
Amen. Well put. Diversity is neutral, sometimes good and sometimes bad (should hospitals allow witchdoctors to treat patients as well as MDs?).
The dishonest and destructive tactic of theological liberals is to present it as an unqualified virtue.
CAndiron 3 years ago
HEY! I can't turn my back on you for 3 days LOL. The question is, what is anyone going to do about it? Well, I'm going to do something about it. Though reading through the Canons I can see how tough it can be when someone is retired. I have questions, I want answers.
episcopalgreg 2 years ago
hey episcopalgreg, good for you. There's freedom of religion in this country, and the leadership of TEC is free to do what they want ... they don't have to expect though that they'll take us where they want to go. I thank God that there are still many faithful Christians in TEC like you.
minckminck 2 years ago
Anglicans believe in the creeds and Scriptures as "the rule and ultimate standard of faith." These are good principles - you should belong to a church which embraces similar ones, be it Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox.
Unfortunately the top leadership of TEC is speaking out against things like the resurrection and as such it's trying to make TEC itself into a splinter group.
Really who cares if you are "splinter group" or not. Follow Christ, this is what is important.
minckminck 3 years ago 2
" the top leadership of TEC is speaking out against things like the resurrection"
I'm a bit rusty on that one. Can you point me to a source?
thx
episcopalgreg 3 years ago
Hoo boy... just google 'spong 12 theses' or 'schori "not mechanism"' for starters. You can also consult standfirm's thread (211 entries so far) documenting TEC heresies. Most recently, they've elected an ordained Zen Buddhist priest as Bishop of North Michigan. Buddhism with its incompatible tenets effectively denies the resurrection.
See the 'Choose This Day' video posted at anglicandecision for a good intro to the issues.
CAndiron 3 years ago
And keep in mind - these are references to statements by TEC leadership themselves. Their own words in their own context. They are responsible for the current exodus of orthodox Anglicans from TEC and the new orthodox Anglican province in America (ACNA) with which the province of Nigeria has recently declared itself to be in communion.
CAndiron 3 years ago
I'm going to have to answer this in parts cause I need to get a haircut LOL. Spong is a nut. He was born in the town I live and was rector at my church so I get to see a large photo of him on the wall if I don't avert my eyes.
He does not speak for TEC and I'm not sure how he can consider himself Christian anymore.
episcopalgreg 3 years ago 2
Spong is still a bishop in good standing in TEC and his books sell like hotcakes, people say, "oh look a bishop denies the divinity of christ & the resurrection so how could it possibly be true." TEC should have taken care of this. So Spong doesn't "speak for TEC" - BUT - his teachings are tolerated in TEC. I.e., you can, as a bishop, say that people who believe Christ rose from the dead are all morons.
minckminck 3 years ago
I don't know enough about the polity to comment or give opinion on standing. You are right though, he can do a lot of damage but his followers are his followers and if he lost standing it wouldn't matter. It might make it worse.
It is unfortunate that a lot of church goers overlook reason and in fact that Scripture is #1 even if the detractors don't agree with how some of us interpret.
Thanks for the citiation.
episcopalgreg 3 years ago
As far as Kevin Thew Forrester goes, elected and ordained are two different things. Democracy is messy and elections have concequenses but please don't say that Forrester is part of the top leadership. He simply isn't. And what you say about incompatible tenets is also true with TEC's own ordination vows. I'm sure we will both be watching this one.
More later.
episcopalgreg 3 years ago
Actually, Kevin Thew Forrester did not get the consent to be bishop. The diocesan standing committees have until July 19 to change their minds, the bishops have until July 25, but it's not likely to happen. As for John Shelby Spong -- well -- he literally spits in the face of The Nicene Creed. But then, sadly, many Episcopalians probably cross their fingers at one time or another during the service. If you don't believe the Creed, you should leave. I'm certainly not leaving because I do believe.
ActorMethane 2 years ago 2
I think as a layperson, if you don't believe the Creed, and don't want to, there's little point. We certainly must have our doors open to people who honestly inquire or are struggling in faith!
But if you are a teacher, if you don't believe the creeds, yes, there are big problems, and you should get help with faith, or leave.
minckminck 2 years ago
Update: Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori on July 27 notified the standing committee of the Diocese of Northern Michigan that the necessary consents to the ordination and consecration of the Rev. Kevin Thew Forrester as bishop were not received within the prescribed time period and therefore his election was "null and void."
ActorMethane 2 years ago
Darn you are so correct!!!!! Bishop Spong was confronted with a 'gay' candidate for ministery who was serving as sextant in my little Church in Hope, NJ. He asked him to 'keep it in his pants' for ordination. Guy was ordinated and stood up before congregation to say, "I'm gay. This is my Life-Mate and my adopted AIDs children." Half the congregation walked out never to attend again. Spong would retire and Father Bill Potter after destroying an active Church would eventually leave,
peterann1 2 years ago
I tried sending you some links but they didn't come out - I think maybe Youtube rejects posts with links. Look at Schori's statements in the Spring 2007 issue of Parabola mag
minckminck 3 years ago
Wow! More than one account, that's amazing. I didn't realize I was dealing with such a resourceful individual. Please accept my aplogies for any offense I've given...
CAndiron 3 years ago
Physician, heal thyself. :) Maybe if you had a normal sex life you wouldn't need to attend a church that obsesses over justifying sexual perversion.
And if I tried to steal your property and lie to your children, I'd assume you'd have issues as well. It's not always a bad thing to 'have issues'. ;>)
CAndiron 3 years ago
Amen, but it's probably too late. Look at the majority of leadership within TEC. They are not merely erring, they need to be witnessed to since they are basically agnostics. TEC has allowed the 'via media' to be carried to absurd extremes by people who lack the integrity to leave their orders when they lose their faith.
CAndiron 3 years ago
I'll bet if Ken Lay or Al Capone lived alongside very honest neighbors, they wouldn't like it either. Go figure.
CAndiron 3 years ago
2Co 6:14-17
arcticfurs 3 years ago
Love the Episcopal Church! the best of both worlds
jupitermadcat 3 years ago
Paganism and atheism?
CAndiron 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Ten years from now Anglican Priests will probably be performing blowjobs on congregants for "communion". No thanks, I think I'll stay pagan.
Athenesword 3 years ago
Amen....most sensible post
MrCravat 3 years ago 2
Why should I be a member of the Episcopalian Church, which is itself a splinter from the Anglican Church, which is itself a splinter from the Catholic Church? To quote the presentation: "So which makes more sense? To be a part of yet another splinter or to be a part of..." The Catholic Church?
Does not the logic of this very presentation actually lead someone to consider the Catholic Church?
hmjd 3 years ago 2
well...in one way it does except for the fact that the Roman Church has serious flaws in doctrine and theology.
boomac62 3 years ago
I'm episcopalian and this video is tight!
eldentist 3 years ago 3
I am Episcopalian,have been for 15 years now.I have found more peace and scriptural knowledge her than in any other church.We follow the teaching of God's word and do not send people on guilt trips as some other churches do.I have been formerly Catholic,Baptist,AME Zion,Pentecostal,Seventh Day Adventist,Apostolic.I have now found the church that God intended me to stay in.God bless you all.
Evrastus 3 years ago 2
"I have found more peace and scriptural knowledge here than in any other church."
So, are you in Dio Pittsburgh, Dio Quincy, or Dio Fort Worth? Or did you move with +Schofield to the Southern Cone?
Seriously, do you honestly think it is 'scriptural' to studiously avoid feeling guilt, even when you do wrong? Why do you think you can simply assert your church is scriptural, when all evidence is to the contrary? Have you found that that approach works in any other area in life? Please, wake up.
CAndiron 3 years ago
I should make myself clearer by stating that not all Episcopal churches(or ministers of)teach the same way,or explain the scriptures in the same manner.I also have possibly done an injustice to some other denominations by generalizing about their teachings since I have not been exposed to ALL!Different ministers may give varied interpretations of the very same texts of the Bible.Please note that I never said that my church teaching was perfect.If I have knowledge of wrong,I don't accept it.
Evrastus 3 years ago
What do Pgh, Quincy, etc. have to do with it?
People should feel guilty when they ARE guilty, and until they are forgiven, not otherwise and no longer.
dcse55 3 years ago
It's official. Lambeth was a complete failure and didn't accomplish anything except for xRoskam's racist slander. GAFCON is the way to go! Yaba-Indaba-Doo!!!
CAndiron 3 years ago
All Christian churches are 'splinter' groups off of the Roman Catholic Church formed my Jesus Christ.
St. Peter = the rock on which He built His Church = Benedict XVI
matthewgsteel 3 years ago 3
There a lot of splinters. But is that bad? I wish that the Episcopal church and the churches that came from it could come together, the Presbyterian Church did. You have to compromise. Against that you do lose identity and we have lost people at our church. So maybe a NEW Christian way. Based on working together locally, for the same purpose of spreading the Gospel.
But a variety of Christian churches with the goal of spreading the Gospel is never bad. Is it?
guywithfuzzyface 3 years ago
Holy Moley! Folk get really fired up, don't we? Anyhow, love and peace. May many blessings ensue. For goodness sake: take a break. Happy days ahead. See you later. Preferably in heaven ;)
halcyonhalogen 3 years ago
On all these pages of commentary, almost everything s responded to with negative ratings and responses. That does not reflect very well on the supposed ideology of Christianity, in any branch. It seems like another way to dissassociate with other people by claiming membership to denomination of a subsect, of a religion. More people have been killed over religious discords than anything else in our history, which is the opposite of religion's purpose. What a paradox
HelloOsakaGoodbye 3 years ago
Actually more people have been killed by atheistic secular regimes. You can't really infer that much from a negative rating, and you are probably reading too much into it. Is a negative rating given because I dislike someone's shirt, or because I consider their teaching harmful? Take the log out of your own eye before you jump to such conclusions.
CAndiron 3 years ago
Not true at all, atheists have and always will reamain a minority that has proven rather peaceful juxtaposed to major religious associations. How do you account for the inquisitions? crusades/holy wars? salem witch trials? even 9/11? Millions of lives have been claimed in the name of a deity or through one's supposed, transcended divine will. To re-direct blame or downplay established religion's part in the consistent disruption of peace throughout history is absurd.
HelloOsakaGoodbye 3 years ago
Were they really the minority in Soviet Russia? How can you even say that? And I reject your division into religious/nonreligious. Not all religions are the same, any more than all Americans are the same. 9/11 and the Crusades were caused by Islamic agression. The Crusades were primarily defensive.
CAndiron 3 years ago
I am glad you found a good church, Dedicednu. Hang on to it and be involved. But don't condemn, yes condemn, other denominations. The Episcopal chruches I went to were great to terrible. One did not know I was there until I was almost out the door.
I loved one Episcopal church I wished I could join but they were too far away. I felt love there. I also loved some of the Baptist churches I went to, they were loving and engaging. So don't condemn.
guywithfuzzyface 3 years ago 2
Actually, if I said those churches were going to hell then THAT would be condemning. There is nothing wrong or 'sinful' about generalizing what the rest of the world already knows.
Dedicednu 3 years ago
So the only way to condemn people is to claim they're going to hell? Yeah, well... I think unsubstantiated assertions like yours could also be classed as condemnation. Why don't you go read a book or something (like the Bible, if you have one) instead of making silly slanderous comments in this combox?
CAndiron 3 years ago
I love the Episcopal Church. They are the only church that I've seen that honestly welcomes all people just as Christ would have done. Baptists are too busy condemning and Catholics are too busy indoctrinating to care about Christ. They put politics first. The Episcopal Church put Christ first. It's the only church that allows for dialogue and common sense.
Despite all the negative ratings from insecure Christians, dsindc hit the nail on the head.
Dedicednu 3 years ago 4
But of course you are not trying to indoctrinate anyone... And the Episcopal church is totally non-political... (MDGs?). But I think your biggest howler, given the PB's, Chane's, and Spong's beliefs is that they "put Christ first". How can you "put first" what you believe to be a fictional character? They put property first, as the lawsuits show. They teach falsely for filthy lucres sake. They entrap you in your lifestyle, Dedicednu, so you will continue to pay them to validate your lifestyle.
CAndiron 3 years ago
I've noticed you've been on this particular thread for over a year. Do you actually have it bookmarked?
May I suggest stamp collecting? Or maybe a walk outside? The fresh air might help with the bitterness.
Dedicednu 3 years ago
Do I take that as an admission you *do* actually pay them to validate your lifestyle?
It's hard to take your critique seriously that your reading this thread for over a year is somehow wholesome, but my occasional commenting on it is not... Are my arguments that good that you wish not to see them? Maybe you will be my first successful youtube witness encounter. I sow the seed. May God give the increase.
CAndiron 3 years ago
CAndiron,your "piety" is showing!
Evrastus 3 years ago
CAndiron,I see you make many "generalizations" as I have mistakenly done in the past!In your "theys".I speak for myself,as a Christian first,as a member of the Episcopalian church next.All members of any "church" do not believe the same,reason being that each personal ability to integrate and divide the word differs! And Christ as a "fictional character"? You sound quite bitter,for some reason,quite prejudiced in matters of which you know nothing of!Lawsuits? You'll find many in ALL CHURCHES!
Evrastus 3 years ago
the episcopal church is a splinter group itself. about 5 years ago, i switched from baptist to Catholic. the Christian Church had to exist ever since Apostolic era. no protestant or baptist sect has been around that long.
coventrygardens 3 years ago
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Oh please, are you lying or just ill informed? Armstrong was cleared of all charges months ago. He's just another example of how sleazy, dishonest and bullying the TEc liberals really are.
CAndiron 3 years ago
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If you insist on judging Christ by the conduct of Christians you can find endless examples of where they have failed.
Just because as an orthodox Christian I disagree with someone doesn't mean that I hate them. Your "ick" thing is ridiculous.
Divorce? One subject at a time.
What you really don't like is the exclusive claims of Christ, and you take the frustrations of your disbelief out on those who follow Him.
Who do you say Christ is,and what weight do his words have? That's the issue.
arbiskup 3 years ago
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Bishop Akinola responded to the THOUSANDS of "orthodox" Episcopalians who begged him to oversee them because their own liberal, revisionists bishops were out to lunch and wouldn't know how to preach the life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ if they were held at gunpoint.
Overseas bishops, as well as those from the continuum would not have been received unless there was a need and parishes to receive them.
The homoerotic and univeralist leadership of TEC caused all this havoc. No wonder.
arbiskup 3 years ago
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Absolute dribble. Simple Redirected Arguement.
Get over your personal anger and issues and get a book on the History of Christianity and read it ALL.
Then we can talk. As far as "Big Pete" goes, he is still in the Anglican Communion and can't criticize anyone as far as I'm concerned.
The Archbishop of Canterbury, their titular head, is as liberal and inept as TEC's Presiding Bishopess Schori and any association with them is poisoned from the beggining.
With regards.
arbiskup 3 years ago
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These comments are typical of those who cannot respond with facts or substance. Their only defense is to get personal or insulting.
So be it. It doesn't change the truth of what I have said.
God bless you anway.
arbiskup 4 years ago
I personally do not think there is anything wrong with splinter groups. At some point, all denominations are splinter groups. That is what the reformation was all about.
tsquiers 4 years ago 7
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Oh yes, the stats you list about TEC are quite old. 2.2 Million has now become a Sunday morning attendance of about 800,000.
The Episcopal Church reportedly is losing about 800 members a week, many of them clergy that are not being replaced fast enough.
If she would go back to preaching Christ and Him crucified instead of preaching the virtues of the "Millineum Development Goals", TEC might be able to become the Grand Ole Tree she was, instead of the withered fig plant she has become.
arbiskup 4 years ago
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Oops. 110 Dioceses is now 109.
The Diocese of San Joaquin left the church.
More are sure to follow.
TEC has "disciplined" or deposed more clergy in the last 5 years than its entire history.
This video "question" is painfully devoid of all of the facts necessary for an uninformed person to answer it.
The "splinters" are nothing short of faithful to the Gospel of Christ and left because they were left with no choice.
arbiskup 4 years ago
"The Diocese of San Joaquin left the church."
That's not possible. No diocese can leave the Church.
hildegardvonvinland 4 years ago 8
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You had better check again my friend, because that diocese, along with it's Bishop, Bishop Schofield,did just that.
To say that "No diocese can leave the church" is the liberal spin that TEC uses when the faithful do exactly that.
Fact: An entire diocese, many individual parishes, and many more individuals have left, taking their properties (which they paid for) with them.
That's exactly why the Episcopal Church is suing these folks. Your logic says that they are suing themselves.Nonsense.
arbiskup 4 years ago
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Also, Presiding Bishopess Schori has tried to depose Bishop Schofield in the past,and only recently succeeded in doing so because he "led his diocese out of the doctrine and discipline of TEC".
Of course, her "discipline" is reserved only for those who are orthodox or traditional in their faith and morals.
The best that she can do is declare the diocese "vacant" which is mere semantics.
The Diocese of San Joaquin voted canonically in their last convention to leave.
Thus, they are gone.
arbiskup 4 years ago
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Well, technically, the Episcopal church has mutated into a secular organization, so you could say the Diocese of San Joaquin was orphaned. It has since placed itself under the pastoral oversight of of the Southern Cone province, led by Archbishop Gregory Venables.
If you really wanted to be pedantic, you could say they 'realigned with another province' in the Anglican Communion, rather than left. The Anglican connection is the primary one, in any case.
CAndiron 3 years ago
The diocese of San Joaquin is still there but with those who remain Episcopal.
gustavo2828 3 years ago 2
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This is a simple "question" to answer.
"THE" Episcopal Church has long since departed the ancient orthodox Christian faith that made it great.
Revisionsists, priestesses and bishopesses of TEC have traded the Gospel of Jesus Christ for a social gospel of "diversity, tolerance, and inclusion", all to be defined by them of course.
Your own Presiding Bishopess, Schori, said of John 14:6 "..to say Jesus is the only way is to put God in an "awfully small box". The "slinters" left out of necessity.
arbiskup 4 years ago
I disagree with the CONCEPT, ACCUSATION, or NOTION that the Episcopal Church is falling into so-called "apostasy", that is. Just wanted to clarify that.
rjky1986 4 years ago 3
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rjky1986, I'm sure you'd agree it would be apostate for the church to be accepting and inclusive of necrophilia or paganism. Your comment is too simplistic. Is it love not to warn people that thier house is burning down, because you don't want to upset them?
I'd also ask you to consider that the Episcopal Church seeks to rob people of assurance of salvation and the existence of God. If you think I'm exaggerating, just google "John Shelby Spong", whom the Presiding Bishop supports.
CAndiron 4 years ago
I disagree totally with the Episcopal Church falling into so-called "apostasy". Most of the people in the Episcopal Church that I've ever met are accepting, inclusive, truly Christ-like people if you ask me. Condemnation and fundamentalism (often under the term "orthodoxy") seems to be prevalent among many Christians and specific denominations in the U.S. today.
And, shall I say, (even if my opinion may be an unpopular one here)dsindc makes good points, especially about biblical literalism.
rjky1986 4 years ago 7
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CAndiron, nobody said anything about a 'new religion'. I have tried vainly to understand what is essentially a new approach, somewhat unique to America of biblical fundamentalism. Nobody has honestly responded to any of my questions. My perversion? Ad hominem attacks point to the weakness of your argument. Thanks to all of you. I've decided I don't want to be a fundamentalist. I sure did feel the love though!!
dsindc 4 years ago 5
There wouldn't be so many "splinters" if the Episcopal Church didn't support apostasy like the ordination of women and homosexuality.
AnHonestChristian 4 years ago
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Thank you Imam. I like you no doubt, miss the good old days when us God fearing Christians could burn homos at the stake. If only we could make women dress like nuns - no, the old style ones. Oh, wait, my kid is getting out of line- as it says in Exodus 21, v. 17 "whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death". Just wait till I get my hands on that little demon...
dsindc 4 years ago
Interestingly enough, when someone disagrees with you, you go ahead and accuse people of homo-hating and killing--which is pretty immature. Of course Jesus had problems with the religious leaders of the day, but He wasn't out of line because He is God--He would know, wouldn't He? Look at Scripture in context. The Christology may be termed differently, but is no different.
AnHonestChristian 4 years ago
Well Mr. Honest, I guess I'd rather be playing at being immature than playing God. Your reasoning is hard to follow. 'Of course Jesus had problems with the religious leaders...'. And why as you imply, is this a given? Jesus had 'problems' with the religious leaders because their religion had become legalistic. It would appear much like you, they had turned their religion into a dead icon.
dsindc 4 years ago
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If you feel accused you make that choice. Fundamental Christians struggle with things like irony, and they certainly don't like discourse. I'm sure you feel morally superior, and see yourself as something of a biblical scholar. That being the case your eminence, please explain to me the meaning of the scripture I quoted? Can I go kill my kid? No, really. I need an answer. And it appears you feel well prepared to give one. Fire away!
dsindc 4 years ago
Ex. 21:17-This verse, like Lev. 18:22, which states the immorality of homosexuality, is both a product of its time and a spiritual truth. No one's saying they didn't execute offenders. I think it's pretty blunt that it's wrong to curse your parents and to have sex with someone of your gender. That's the application of the verses today, proving even a "dated" passage is timeless in meaning.
AnHonestChristian 4 years ago
You dodge my questions and frankly you're not making sense. Spiritual truths transcend time, they are hardly the product of a particular era. Yes, if you take this translation literally it is pretty "blunt". Getting the green light to take out your kid is well, yep, blunt. So, are you saying that is the application as you put it? I can kill my kid if he gets out of line? You have not answered that question and I don't think you want to.
dsindc 4 years ago
While you're at it, tell me when something is metaphor, or is anything mataphor? When does scripture have to be interpreted in its cultural and historic context? Or does it ever? Do you think some people use religion to feel morally superior - when in fact they're covering up a sort of existential inferiority?
dsindc 4 years ago
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I'm a pediatric oncologist and deal with quite a lot of very sick young people and children. I am calling on your twisted 'theology' because I so often see the damage it does. I express my faith in my work, not by throwing poorly understood scriptural passages as emotionally vulnerable people. I suspect many around you find your pseudo Christianity boring at best.
dsindc 4 years ago
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Seriously, you are anything but honest. Scripture is all over the place. The Christology of Mark is very different from that of John. Religion is not an icon. That's idol worship. Ignorance is not bliss. Maybe you would be happiest with Fred Phelps' group. Interesting, Jesus had problems with nobody.. except the religious authorities of his time. Think about that message. I think you've missed it.
dsindc 4 years ago
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A word of good cheer is in order. I have read that one of the recent Archbishops of Canterbury commented on fundamentalists in America. "Oh yes, we've heard of your fundamentalists in America. We have every confidence they will find their place in heaven. We sense however that the angels will be somewhat muted in their rejoicing upon their arrival." Amen.
dsindc 4 years ago
Poor Rowan--a pro-life liberal that strives for ecumenism can't even maturely deal with his greatest Christian allies.
AnHonestChristian 4 years ago
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Finally, just a thought. Religion is in many ways like a Rorschach test. If you don't know what that is, it involves an ink blot, and patients suffering emotional problems are asked to express what they see. If the patient expresses negative, destructive, fearful concepts it provides significant insight into that individual's world view.
dsindc 4 years ago
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Your attitudes about religion concern me. You see a punitive deity full of wrath. Do you see the world as a threatening place? Is there an individual causing you anxiety? I suggest you seek counseling. By the way, "poor little Rowan" - stop that crap by the way.... was not the author of that statement. Please for the sake of those around you get off your pompous high horse. For your own sake, get a mental health check.
dsindc 4 years ago
And would you like to think up for me what is truth, seeing as how you appear to be able to judge what is the correct world view to have? I know without your "help" that God is loving, that's He's merciful--but there has to exist an alternative display of nature to show what good is. And I didn't say "little"--the guy is taller than the Pope. And in any case, Rowan still has to deal with a sterile, alcohol-drenched country with barely any evangelical activity anyway.
AnHonestChristian 4 years ago
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And 'poor' is somehow less condescending than 'little'? No, you have in your own unique way presented yourself as having the truth. I have merely asked you questions which you choose not to address. My child still waits for the verdict. My question addresses your literal application of scripture.
dsindc 4 years ago
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By the way, there is little evangelical or even Christian activity in EUROPE as a whole. 20%of Spanish report going to mass during a given month. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is telling us something. Our tradtional approaches to Christianity are not working.
dsindc 4 years ago
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You began this insanity by making a condemnation - homosexuals and female church leaders. I have condemned no one. You refuse to answer significant questions, and finally you trash an entire country ! Been to the U.K.? I have. Much less poverty, drug abuse, and much much less crime. I really think you need to see someone about your anger. Something is wrong.
dsindc 4 years ago
I answered your questions on biblical literalism, particularly Lev. 18:22 and Ex. 21:17. I have neither "trashed" nor "condemned" no one. I'm not so much for tradition as I am for sharing the love and gospel of Christ in a way applicable to the world today. Because I have beliefs--which are founded in the original outline for Christianity--and you base your philosophy on your mood, I think someone's wrong, wouldn't you say?
AnHonestChristian 4 years ago
NO you did NOT answer me. You said this -
"I think it's pretty blunt that it's wrong to curse your parents and to have sex with someone of your gender. That's the application of the verses today, proving even a "dated" passage is timeless in meaning. "
---- So what does this mean? I am trying to make this easy.
dsindc 4 years ago
It means that it was immoral then, punishable by death in that culture and day, and is immoral know, b/c Christ has come and did so to fulfill the law. It still stands even though Jesus sets us free.
AnHonestChristian 4 years ago
So are you saying I am to take these passages literally? The 'application' ( a weird word to pick ) is still relevent? i.e. I can kill my kid? You cannot have it both ways. Answer !
dsindc 4 years ago
Yes, we all feel the love. So you're "not so much for tradition". Cryptic once again. Or maybe just confused. I guess my kid gets a pass. Beliefs should be based on scripture, tradition, and reason with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Sadly too many of us use what we want for purely self serving reasons. When you use terms like "apostasy", you place yourself in the role of accuser. Be careful. Very careful.
dsindc 4 years ago
While I warmly thank you with endowing me with such romantic attributes like "cryptic," I will logically explain my statement, as I have my others. I'm not a traditionalist. I love the old liturgies, the hymns, prayers, creeds--but I sooner spread the Gospel than than just my way of church worship. I'm not going even say what I think you mean by "be very careful," but the Lord is my shepherd and you should act like He's yours too. God bless.
AnHonestChristian 4 years ago
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Oh please. Read 2 Ti 4:2-4 and Gal 1. If you think the world needs a new religion, fine, go ahead and invent one, but don't call it Christianity. If you are ashamed of your perversion, perhaps you should be repenting of it instead of vainly trying to convince other people to accept it.
CAndiron 4 years ago
So how do you know the difference in the U. S.?
Just look for the seal. what do you have to do to join?
What if you feel called?
sojoyful 4 years ago
These idiots think they can steal other people's land to fund their apostasy. They act out of spite, rather than Christian charity. Visit babybluecafe dot blogspot dot com for update on how they are failing.
CAndiron 4 years ago
I am Catholic and know many God fearing God loving Episcopalians. I am so tired of Christians in this country...who belong to Churches that are a few years old....bashing everyone. What a narrow vision of God to think you can bash others and you have the truth? Of course, people who bash never truly know the thing they're tearing down....I mean really.
francanarsie 4 years ago 10
The Episcopal Church made me feel closer to God than any other church I've been to.
P.S. If Episcopalians are lying to us, then the Bible is lying to, since the whole service is made of readings from the BIBLE.
P.S.S. Slandering TEC or gays isn't very Christian as I remeber!!!
radelgirl 4 years ago 2
I'm still divided over the issue of gay clergy, but I still think the Episcopal Church is wonderful, and I'm tired of all the theo-cons following the herd in yet another string of fashionable rantings and ravings.
Ashiman12 4 years ago 4
TEC actually just made a good argument for the Catholic Church in this spot. If you want the original, forget TEC and all its heresies and foofy theospeak and head for Rome. It's not hard, all roads lead there.
jacero10 4 years ago 3
I believe this to be very true. If the branches have withered and are dying, they must be pruned, that the roots may surive and put forth new growth. The root IS the Catholic church. I can see this, and I'm not even Catholic.
cissyrae54 4 years ago
Heh heh. I'm not Catholic, still I must give this a hearty AMEN!!! TEC is poisonous anti Christian atheism. Just flee. John Shelby Spong has conquered, indoctrinated, and marinated the minds of TEC leaders (including marky-boy).
CAndiron 4 years ago
Probably another mean-sprited critic who's never bothered to read Bishop Spong. How sad. Great video!
StTeresaAvila 4 years ago 5
Have you ever read the 12 theses? I think he endangers people by preaching his atheism and encouraging them to sin. Why do you think it's okay for him to pose before believers as a Christian and take away their hope and turn them towards self-worship?
CAndiron 4 years ago
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This like everything else about TEC is just crap!! Steeped in apostasy, heresy and soon a new schism, TEC is a broad way to damnation. Stay away from these sick souls. Run for the sake of your souls.
jacero10 4 years ago
you seem to have some issues. Maybe you should listen more than condemn.
fgrcorwin 4 years ago 4
excellent!
ttriggit 4 years ago 2
as a liberal episcopalian, i say let them splinter off and call themselves something else
zaynzaynzayn 4 years ago
You seem to think numbers are all that matter. If that's the case join a CANA congregation, then you'll be part of a 17 million strong group (that's orthodox to boot).
CAndiron 4 years ago
Only one issue with all this. Samuel Seabury was made a Bishop by the Bishops of the Church of Scotland, NOT Canterbury. Why are we Anglicans, then?
BTLGllc 5 years ago
Seabury was consecrated by Scottish Episcopal bishops and was followed by bishops consecrated in the Church of England, so majority of early bishops always were CofE-consecrated. The Scottish Episcopal Church and The Episcopal Church (USA) are now both part of the Anglican Communion.
mgrichphd 5 years ago
However, your video fails to address any of the root causes of the division or answer any of the issues that are divide even those that haven't formerly left the ECUSA (yet).
RyanControl 5 years ago
However, your video fails to address any of the root causes of the division or answer any of the issues that are still divide even those that haven't formerly left the ECUSA (yet).
RyanControl 5 years ago
I must admit reading the websites of some of the splinter groups is humorous (No, really, we are the REAL GENUINE thing, just don't confuse with that other splinter group. We are the Anglican Church IN America, not the Anglican Church OF America). It is like something from a Monty Python movie.
RyanControl 5 years ago
In all fairness, one might call the Episcopal Church a splinter group of the Roman Catholic Church, and most Greek Orthodox Christians would say that the Roman Catholic Church is a departure from the One True Holy Apostalic Catholic etc etc Church as it was before the West lapsed into heresy and error.
RyanControl 5 years ago 3
To Proathanasius:
Review the 8th commandment if you are Jewish or Protestant or the 9th if you are Lutheran or Roman Catholic. We'll be waiting for your apology.
RadioLeft 5 years ago 3
If you are Jewish or Protestant, take a look at the 8th Commandment. If you are Lutheran or Catholic take a look at the 9th commandment. Then come back here and apologize.
RadioLeft 5 years ago 4
If you are Roman Catholic or Lutheran, take a look at the 8th commandment. If you are Jewish or Protestant, take a look at the 9th commandment. We'll be waiting for your apology.
RadioLeft 5 years ago 4