If God is A Capitalist, Why are Most Christians Socialists?

[Vintexen]

If a business man works hard to gain millions to help others, to serve God, than he has provided jobs and has helped others (The Poor etc.), everyone wins. Now, if you take the first man, who wants to gain wealth for himself and tell him he can gain no wealth for himself than those people he would have given jobs lose because he no longer gains what he wanted to work for. If God wanted to use force to make people obey him than he wouldn't have given us free will.

[Vintexen]

I am a Christian Libertarian Capitalist. God says that we should give, and so I will give and I will convince others to give. He does not say to steal. Think about this. If a business man works hard to gain millions for himself he has provided jobs for many people, which helps them greatly, everyone wins. This is a good thing. If a business man works hard to gain millions to help others, to serve God, than he has provided jobs and has helped others (The Poor etc.), everyone wins.

[evaninnorway]

arrogance... wow.

[TheRedRussianCossack]

...

[andres65080]

Saying God is a capitalist is like saying a centipede has one leg.

[FreeCapitalist]

@andres65080 Okay, I kind of agree. The point would be however that most people (in the context of the above controversy - most Christians) are laboring under the false impression that centipedes don't have legs and could not have legs.

[dancthegr]

You wish- Most evangelicals are capitalists which is terrible

[hgrissom5289]

Oh, and by the way FreeCapitalist... that's Matthew 22:34-40, not a paraphrase. It's taken from the New American Standard Version which is generally considered to be the most literal of the translations.

<-----Theology and Philosophy major btw

[hgrissom5289]

39"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

so... we aren't supposed to love our neighbor??? Please go read your Bible sir, and get off the radio until you know what you are talking about. It's CHRISTIAN doctrine, not the doctrine of America and what's good for me... just... stop

[hgrissom5289]

34But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38"This is the great and foremost commandment.

[TheRedMenace92]

Is just anyone given a radio station? Before you call yourself a christian radio station at least read the Bible. This guy is a dumbass. I can't stand it. Possessions. Wealth are worldly gifts and thats all you'll get is what you have on this world. You will not be rewarded in the Kingdom.

Before you call youself a Christian know what Jesus preached. Love. Love thy neighbor as thyself.

"Behold, How great and how pleasant it is for man to dwell in unity."

--Psalms 133:1

[TheRedMenace92]

Youve touched on all that is evil I cannot even begin 2 quote scripture to prove you wrong. No one can serve God and money[Luke 16:13]. Money represents attachment to the earth because it represents physical wealth, possessions & u become attached but we're called 2 hate the world [1John 2:15]

Read Luke 12:13-34.

And tell me this. Who of the apostles carried the money, treasurer? Judas Iscariot. The one who betrayed Jesus. Not a coincidence the one with the money was the corrupt of the bunch.

[TheRedMenace92]

Luke 16:19-31.

Read your bible. Jesus has dozens of parables villainizing the rich. Saying those who are love their wealth are evil. Those who dont help their brothers are evil. He's talking about spiritual prosperity. Not possessions. For the love of money is the root of all evil [1 Timothy 6:10].

"Hath not God chose the world to rich in faith and inherit the Kingdom He promised to those who Loved Him? Do the rich men not oppress you and call you before the judgment seats?" James 2:5-6

[Comrade2face]

even though im a socialist

if you look at the revelation paintings, god or jesus wears a crown, so heaven must be a monarchy,

god is a king, so god is a monarchist.

[ChristianMarxist]

God is a Communist

[BloatedSensations]

He doesn't know where helping your fellow man is ever articulated in any Christian doctrine? Is this guy for real? Really! Did I miss something? Is he being facetious? I can't believe anyone could say that and seriously consider themselves to be a Christian.

[Ooftyman]

I'm dealing with a bunch of wackos here on my Christian college campus. I am an avowed Christian. With that said, most of the arguments that are used are typically straw-man, and whenever Scripture is used, it's generally taken out of its context.

Perhaps the single biggest idea that most pinkos ignore is the difference between socialism and voluntary giving. Milton Friedman made this distinction many, many times in his lectures through the 70's to Ivy League hippies raging against 'the Man'.

[TheRedMenace92]

Because Jesus was a communist.

[Ooftyman]

Jesus was no capitalist.

[Ooftyman]

Crap. Typo. I mean Communist. *Sigh*

[TheRedMenace92]

I managed to find quite a few quotes to say he was. Communuism is based on the truth of altruism. Otherly, brotherhood, love for mankind, sympathy for the poor, the riches obligation to help the poor, cooperation over competition, servant to others, etc Leviticus 25:35 Mark 12:31 Mathew 19:21-24 Acts 4:32-37 James 2:5-6 1 Timothy 6:10 Ephesians 4:28 Acts 2:44-45 Luke 1:52-53 Acts 5:1-10 Its easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.

[TheRedMenace92]

Look up those Bible verses before getting back to me.

[TitleofLiberty]

I enjoy talking with you. Ultimately, (no offence meant) us talking*1, does not achieve my goal of sharing, at huge scales the gigantic, powerful, and passionate, joy that I am now feeling every moment of my life, because of principles which helped me understand how perfect and awesome my*2 religion is. I apologize for when I was overbearing and rude. May you get what you want, in your life, to the fullest/emptiest possible! Remember Isaac R. Crookston (that's me)!

*1 Commenting

*2 (LDS)

[HaggardtheGreat]

I also enjoyed this conversation, and no offense was taken. Debates are debates but we cannot take ourselves out of the awesome world that God created for us. I understand the rudeness, I used to do the same thing trust me, mine were far worse. Anyways, I'm glad we can end this debate on such a friendly note, it's not often I could find a debate opponent who is as friendly and courteous as yourself.

Thank you for wishes,

you have my best regards!

[HaggardtheGreat]

Further, I would like to say social security is not the result of socialism. Socialism is workers owning the means of production, which is unknown in this country. Social security is the result of workers demanding more rights back in the Depression era.

[passwordthisasspart2]

Jesus said the money lenders (bankers )would never enter the kingdom of heaven . He quit his job and traveled around helping the poor and sick and never was given anything but food for his trouble . Hmmmm does that sound like capitalism ? Pure capitalism is absolutely Darwinist . The big corporations eat the small ones until only one remains , the same would apply to countries , people etc . Soon the result is 1% rich 99 % slaves , and we are getting closer to this each day !!

[TitleofLiberty]

You're going to be poor all of your sad depressed life! If you loath wealth there's no way in hell you'll get it, except by mooching and looting!

[Ooftyman]

Hmm. How does this jive with the fact that the lowest earning quintile in this country far outearn the AVERAGE income in most of the world? We are getting closer to this every day, huh?

[HaggardtheGreat]

"And Jesus said, amass gross amounts wealth for yourself and engage in fierce competition with your neighbors."

Funny you don't see this in the Bible.

I'm not saying that Jesus was a communist either, at least not in the Marxist sense.

[TitleofLiberty]

YES! NOT IN THE MARXIST SENSE IN ANOTHER SENSE!...

What bible are you reading from!!! HMMMM THAT'S FUNNY TO. You know, I bet before Jesus began his three year ministry he sat on his butt...and taught LOVE... AWE--- OR maybe, like it says in the scriptures!!! HE WAS A CARPENTER!!! I bet he did a crappy job so he wouldn't beat competition... HMMMM Some reason THAT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE JESUS ETHER!!! I bet Jesus did the best He could do!!! You're a genius Haggard the Retard!!!

[HaggardtheGreat]

Lol I bet you were grinding your teeth and slamming on your desk in anger while typing this response. In fact, Jesus did teach love. No socialist would ever advocate "doing a crappy job", that's a strawman argument. All I'm saying is that we cannot try to place Jesus and his teachings into a neat little category and say he was a capitalist or socialist, it doesn't make sense.

[TitleofLiberty]

You're right that a socialist would never advocate "doing a crappy job" they simple do not have any motivation to do a good job! Give me one example in history where socialism created the capitalistic mentality of produce the most value as possible for human beings.

[HaggardtheGreat]

Socialists indeed have the motivation, many today are hardworking union members. I never argued against the productive capabilities of capitalism. The capitalist system has the ability to rally the productive forces like never before seen. However, it happens at a cost to many for the profit of few. There was no socialist system that created the capitalist mentality of production because they are opposing philosophies. Socialism does not seek capitalist goals.

[TitleofLiberty]

Very true that socialism does not seek Capitalistic goals, Capitalism deals with the wealthy earning that which is equal to their ability, while socialism punishes the worker and rewards the lazy. I have a brother-in-law who did not work at all but because he's got "bipolar disorder" (I call it immaturity and lack of self-control), he is 25 and on social security, which he simply did not earn or deserve, that is the result of socialism. Isn't that a possibility?

[HaggardtheGreat]

To say that socialism punishes the worker while rewarding the lazy is incorrect. Socialism rewards all, especially the hard working. My mother also has bipolar disorder and I must say, friend, that we must be more sensitive with this problem. I have done some psychological training and it is very much a physical/psychological problem. I'm not sure about your bro-in-law since there are people that fake it, but we must not leave the thousands that suffer in the cold for the few that fake it.

[TitleofLiberty]

I enjoy talking with you. Ultimately, (no offence meant) us talking*1, does not achieve my goal of sharing, at huge scales the gigantic, powerful, and passionate, joy that I am now feeling every moment of my life, because of principles which helped me understand how perfect and awesome my*2 religion is. I apologize for when I was overbearing and rude. May you get what you want, in your life, to the fullest/emptiest possible! Remember Isaac R. Crookston (that's me)!

*1 Commenting

*2 (LDS)

[cubatropical]

Socialist are the most selfish people, they don't want others to prosper. If you loved your neighbor as yourself, the you would want for him/her to be as wealthy and as independent as possible. YOu have no case, you just want to argue.

[Ooftyman]

"...happens at a cost to many for the profit of few."

Haggard, can you please clarify one thing for me? How does this jive with the statistical facts regarding the abundance of poverty in primarily socialist countries and even worse poverty in Communist regimes? Take a look at the numbers. They don't lie.

I would gladly live on the streets in a free-market capitalist nation than to be living in the so-called "Communist Edens". I've seen first-hand the effects of such disastrous policies.

[BloatedSensations]

You're right - the numbers don't lie. And, the numbers say that the places in the world with the highest standards of living are not the places with the most unrestricted free-markets and capitalist practises. They're the places which have found the greatest balance between capitalism and socialism. The problem doesn't lie in the political philosophy. It lies in corruption, greed and a thirst for power which causes people to push the models to extremes.

[Ooftyman]

I think you confuse the two. You seem to assume that support of free markets are a vote for "greed". This is a very common confusion, and I don't fault you for it. Corporations that are forced to compete (which forces them to be held accountable to all its stakeholders - the shareholders, the public, etc.) on a level playing field always provide the maximum cost/benefit ratio.

[BloatedSensations]

The places in the world which provide the best living conditions are the places that employ enough socialistic philosophy to restrict capitalistic tendencies from running amok, and vice versa.

[Ooftyman]

Specifically, which countries are you referring to that have ever had completely free markets? The only ones in which the masses have escaped the kind of poverty that ravages third world countries are ones that are capitalist and largely free market.

Pure free market capitalism is not lawlessness or anarchy, mind you. Using the courts to find justice for companies that deliberately conceal information is a desirable outcome of the market.

[InFromTheVoid]

socialism...FROM each according to his ability, To each according to his need....???? Do you honestly think that works? Every great mind in this country will flee or go on strike. ANd I wouldn't blame them. Folks don't become Doctors because they are forced. It takes A LOT of passion and drive. Tell me..Are they slaves? Or do they deserve their reward?

[TitleofLiberty]

By the way, I do not live by gritting my teeth, slamming my fists, and being pissed, I simply live with a passion for truth, intelligence, and competence. Jesus was competent. He had much better communication skills than me, in empowering people to reach to a higher standard of living.

[haomani]

I'm a proud Christian Capitalist. I see no reason capitalism and christianity are often seperated. Many socialists take passages out of context. An excellent example is Timothy, "Money is the root of all evil."

THIS IS WRONG. THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THIS. It says that "LOVE of money is the root of all evil." Loving money, rather then God, (For God and money cannot both be worshiped) is evil, not money itself, or the idea of money.

[TitleofLiberty]

BROVO For saying it right!!! Thank goodness there's still intelligent life on this planet! Money when earned, and not gained by deception or coercion, is the result of a mind. For example: I create, from my mind, a great invention and sell it for millions. So therefore those millions are the result of my mind.

[onetocome]

Most Christians are capitalists and live very well. A Christian capitalist is not the same as a non-Christian capitalist. Christians put God first, pagans put money first, that is the difference.

[Lagwagon555]

Do I see a set of Ayn Rand books behind the guy? ; )

[unionpride]

I love Ayn Rand, even Lagwagon is my favorite band. Kudos!

[utahgov]

You sure do see Ayn Rand books behind him. I have heard Rick Koerber talk about Ayn Rand for years. He's finally convinced me to read Atlas Shrugged because of his non-stop reminders over the radio.

[TitleofLiberty]

YEAH isn't it WONDERFUL that you can see a GENIUS behind Rick! Isn't awesome that Rick was kind enough to tell me, a searching seventeen-year-old, and you a... stubborn... person, to read Atlas Shrugged!!!

[ordinarygirl2424]

Socialists are douche bags.

the end.

[HaggardtheGreat]

You are a douche bag.

[ordinarygirl2424]

Great comeback.

[HaggardtheGreat]

A comment as great as yours(the "socialists are douchebags" comment)deserved

a reply as great as mine.

[TitleofLiberty]

Haggardthedouchebag

[HaggardtheGreat]

Lol wow you must have really been pissed at me.

Learn not to take debates so seriously man.

[TitleofLiberty]

Oh yes. Let's not take it seriously, lets be stupid and see how un-serious and Brain-off we can be.

[HaggardtheGreat]

Wow, all you can do is insult me.

I meant to say not to take it personally, not seriously. My mistake. Any way, your insults and personal attacks reduce the effectiveness of any argument you make. Yes, Jesus was competent, I am a Christian I know this. However, his ministry dealt primarily with how to live your life by the word of God, not amassing wealth . That is why it's absurd to say he was a capitalist or a socialist.

[TitleofLiberty]

LOL. That makes more sense. But you did say, you were a Comunist and a Christain, could you please explain to me what your deffinition of Comunism is?

[HaggardtheGreat]

Gladly.

Communism is the ultimate goal of Marxian socialism, a classless society. However, this end cannot come about until socialism successfully comes into being (i.e. workers owning the means of production). I do not believe this can be forced since Marx himself said that it is a stage in human development. However, I feel that extreme dialectical materialism has a weakness since it leaves out God, Jesus, and souls, which are also entwined and apart of the material world.

[calebkid21]

...because you can't take your money to the grave. only Jesus can save you from your sins and give you eternal life

[calebkid21]

well i'm a christian and i'm also a capitalist. if you read the bible Abraham would easily be a billionaire by todays standards. just look at jewish people they are rich. Money is good, you need it to buy food so you can survive. Money only becomes a problem when you trust in money as opposed to God

[jingvt]

You cannot be a capitalist and a Christian at the same time. You cannot be greedy for yourself seeking to be in the Kingdom of God. If you love your neighbor as yourself, which is one of the greatest commandments of God, you cannot be a capitalist.

[unionpride]

jingvt, your definition of a capitalist is skewed. I know you definitley cannot be a communist and a christian, people got killed for that.

[HaggardtheGreat]

Wrong.

I am a proud Christian communist.

[Ooftyman]

Haggard, I am glad you are my brother in Christ. With this said, I think you are confusing Communist with socialist. Communism deals with much more far-reaching principles than simply economics, even delving into the religious realm -- banning of churches and executing Christians. In a very literal sense, all of the founders of Communism were atheist.

[HaggardtheGreat]

In addition, the fight the Russian Marxists of the early 20th century was due to the power relations between the church and the ousted monarchy. Such antagonisms were not solely of Marxist accord. For instance, violence is called upon by religious officials themselves against secular capitalist states. However, the reaction to the church by certain Marxist governments was extreme. New Marxist lines, however, provide religious freedom in their constitutions.

[Ooftyman]

But regardless of historical perspectives regarding the Church, are you claiming the Bible endorses Marxist principles?

[Ooftyman]

Haggard, I am glad you are my brother in Christ. With this said, I think you are confusing Communist with socialist. Communism deals with much more far-reaching principles than simply economics, even delving into the religious realm -- banning of churches and executing Christians. In a very literal sense, all of the founders of Communism were atheist.

[HaggardtheGreat]

I too am glad that we both follow the teachings of Christ. However, I am indeed a Marxist. I have studied Marxist and Christian dialectic materialism, the philosophies carry much weight in regards to the importance of the physical world and all of it's contradictions which manifest in ourselves as well. Given this, I still believe pure, hardcore materialism completely negates the human soul and it's importance.

[kittiest34]

No. You're talking about Mao and Leninist state socialists and communists. I am an Anarcho-Communist and I think people need to be left alone to self-determinate. I'm non-theist myself but people in general need to be liberated from the state and wage slavery (ie Capitalism).

[Ooftyman]

Capitalism has nothing to do with greed. I think you may have been fed the confused doctrine the public schools have been teaching kids for the last 40 years.

Classical liberals (the most ardent supporters of free markets) have never advocated ignoring the poor. The consensus among economists is that the poor are more effectively taken care of in free markets. This, in itself, is a completely separate issue from charitable giving. The real debate is over which is the most efficient means.

[JonnGalt]

Wow, I have heard a couple of his shows now. This individual is very intelligent. He is making us all think. I like this. He has some very good points--if you don't agree, read the scriptures, you will probably change your mind.

[MaBl001]

Keep it up, Rick! You da man!

[crPolytics002]

I am Catholic, Republican and really capitalist. This seems like crap. Most Christians are neo-cons and libertarians. This is wrong.

[Ooftyman]

Eh. From the perspective of one who is currently doing doctoral work in economics (and my experience in some very, very different academic environments), I'm going to have to disagree. I used to feel the same way until I met some of the more... weak-minded among us.

God bless, and keep fighting the good fight!