Hm,I think it was because of Chess that I came to understand and appreciate Go better than it just being a simple game of stones and intersection.I think Chess is just more visible in the Social aspect with limiting moves that reflect rank and piece shapes making it an obvious game while Go let's you think a little bit more.In Go one stone may end up acting as a pawn in some cases as well as a bishop.Also in Go you're more of a General on battle base than an Aristocrat waiting in a castle.
I love Go and decided to help a friend when he created a Non-Profit Organization call Spread Go. I think you can guess what we are about. Check out our facebook page at facebook.com/pages/SpreadGo/151071991636616 Check us out and show your support or help us spread the word.
Okay, I'm a colege student who mostly plays go as a hobby. I don't think I'm too bad, but I'd like to get better. Can anyone point out any of the big moves that were played in this match and how they influenced the rest of the game?
@scsteeldrums That definition doesn't tell us a lot about pi. Do you know how to prove that pi is an irrational number? How to prove that the ratio circumference/diameter is constant and equals pi? Did you know that [1 +(1/2)+(1/4)+(1/9)+... (1/n²) + ...] = pi²/6? If you study calculus, trigonometry, physics, ... you'll know how much you'll need to use this number. Most mathematicians say e^(i.pi)+1=0 is such a wonderful formula 'cause it has the 5 most important numbers. :)
This game is so exciting! So exciting that we made a Hikaru no go-inspired filmatized version of it, including all drama surrounding it! (Shusai adjourning the game several times, etc.)
Click on my name and you'll find it on my channel front page - "The Game of the Century"
Good ol' Hoju, going home and generating those stochastic analytics using the hundreds of "students" from the Honinbo Go house. Sure the H8 move was insane, but it didn't necessarily have to come from Nobuaki Maeda. You put a couple hundred 9d's in a building, give them 24 hours to analyze possible variations, and more than one of them will eventually go "OH SHIT HOW ABOUT THIS MOVE?"
I wouldn't necessarily call it a problem that Shusai could adjourn and play out different moves, because while he's thinking his opponent can also use that time to think.
@SkyX19: Shusai being able to adjourn WITHOUT sealing a move is a HUGE advantage. It means he can spend all his time trying to find the best move. Meanwhile, Go Seigen may be faced with, say, three main possible moves by Shusai and can only spend about a third of his time on each possible move. A MUCH FAIRER way is for the person adjourning to have to seal his move (as is done in professional chess). That way, both players have to spend time considering their response to opponent's moves.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Not to seem like a jerk, but this game seem so stupid and simple. Almost like intriguing version of connect the dots. I have playing chess for a few years now and can say it is far superior to this..
@iluvadar1977: What math? That each move in Go allows hundreds of possible stupid moves at the beginning, compounded into zillions of variations? Both chess and Go are so complex that playing near perfectly is too difficult for anyone who has not dedicated years of study to it. Go has the advantage of a smaller margin of victory, and less reliance on memorizing openings, but that is different from 'complexity'. (I was an amateur shodan in Go and USCF Master in chess.)
@Maxdwolf: I place little confidence in "they". If you can tell me who "they" are and where their analyses are, I may well find flaws in their analyses. I sure hope YOU do not believe claims every time someone says, "They proved it."
@DavidForthoffer The complexity comes from the brilliant unique features which chess cannot begin to comprehend. Chess focuses on alot of mathmatics and logic but the closest thing to influence is postional play. Go shows that humans have a gift that computers do not which is judgement. A computer can't even imagine playing shodan level because the moves and logic of Go aren't concrete like mathmatics. Good moves in go are based on human judgement which makes Go more complex.
@kooler2004 Chess offers very little outside concrete variations and mathmatical solutions. still both games require years of dedication to be good at them.
@kooler2004: Companies and programmers have concentrated a lot more on developing good chess programs than on developing good go programs. IBM has spent millions of dollars on this, and has arguably recouped much if not all of it by applying its Deep Blue Technologies to multi-billion dollar businesses. The only big financial incentive for Go programs is a million dollar prize that expired long ago.
@DavidForthoffer False. Big competitions in europe are held each year between programers and their go bots. The reason why a computer has not mastered Go is what the programmers call artificial intelligence which in the history of computers has never been achieved. The bot industry is far from a million dollar industry and it is far from dead.
@kooler2004: The Go idea of "big competitions" pales in comparison to the money at stake for chess programs. Your "The [go] bot industry is far from a million dollar industry" statement simply reinforces that. Since the Ing competition expired, the largest prize I have seen is $20,000. That is a pittance compared to the millions of dollars IBM has spent on computer hardward and software for chess.
@DavidForthoffer you missed the point entirely. If a big industry tried to make a deep blue for Go it would fail with current technology. You can ask any programmer who has tried to make a bot surpass 1 kyu and they will tell you no deep blue computer can be made for Go until artifical intelligence is created. The reason being only human minds can grasp the key concepts of aji and positional judgement.
@kooler2004: I am confident that with five years' effort I could write a Go program that could beat a professional shodan player. I would embark on that now, if the Ing competition were still active. I hadn't done before because I earned more than the top prize since 1990 working as a computer programmer for Adobe Systems.
@DavidForthoffer I understand your point, and I agree that professionals do alot of reading ahead or as chess players call it calculating, but I do not believe that with all the money in the world their will ever be a deep blue for go from my research and from what the programmers say. I would like to see a Go program beat a 1p with no handicap, and if you manage to do it I will be thorughly impressed. If you do not make it to grandmaster within the next 5-10 years would you come back to Go?
@kooler2004: I was most active in both chess and Go in the late 1960's, at U.C. Berkeley. Now I am an old man, semi-retired. I am certainly not pursuing chess advancement any more; that would involve more scholarship and memorization than I care for. I have had an idea for a Go program that I think would be very powerful. I am tempted to work on that, though I have fewer energized hours per day now than then, and my wife is pushing me to convert "uncomfortably retired" to "comfortably retired".
@DavidForthoffer You are absolutely correct and I do not wish to upset people in discussions. Thankyou for being polite and discussing this stuff with me calmly. I am glad that we both agree on certain points.
@DavidForthoffer The Wikipedia page on computer Go lists some of the basic reasons that it's hard to write a good Go player. Many Faces, one of the best programs today, has been under development for about 30 years by a 3-dan who is also a knowledgeable AI expert. It incorporates his thought process (and he's better than you at the game) as well as cutting-edge AI and search techniques that you have not likely been exposed to. "5 years" is big talk from someone who hasn't ever tried it.
@kooler2004: Good moves in Go are based on a surprising amount of calculation and a lot of counting. Certainly judgement plays a part, as it does in chess. But the real reason we do not have Go programs playing as well as professional Go players is that there has not been a big financial incentive for that.
@DavidForthoffer I doubt by just caculating and counting you got to shodan. My friend is helping out someone who did those two things and nothing else and was 18 kyu for 3 years now he is 15 kyu because positional judgement is and the big picture are the biggest thing in go. Life and death is 10% of Go
@kooler2004 Right. I got to amateur shodan by study, intuition, ability to balance needs all over the board, and calculating up to 40 moves (ply) ahead. (Calculating in Go in a tactical situation is a lot easier than in chess because the moves are simpler and each move simplifies the position [except for the rare play-beneath-the-stones]. In chess, I rarely calculated more than 20 moves ahead.)
@DavidForthoffer Yes I agree the most I have calculated in a tournament chess game is 10 moves, but other positional play chess is 90% tactics unlike Go wich encompasses so much more.
@kooler2004: You are a class A chess player. That means you do not understand much of chess beyond simple tactics. I am a titled Master chess player, which means I am only beginning to understand the subtleties of positional chess at the professional level. In both chess and Go, there is a continuum between positional plays and tactical plays, with the tactics laying the foundation for positional plays. To say chess is 90% tactics means you do not understand the positional aspects.
@DavidForthoffer My positional play which most of it I learned from annotated game review of alkhine, fischer, kasporov, and the help of experts that I have played and a few I have beaten is sound in my mind. I'm at the point to where position not material dictates if I keep playing or resign. Once I learned material does not matter I began studying and developing attacking chess.
@DavidForthoffer I'm preoccupied with go and will Go back to chess in a few months as is how it usually goes. last month I played chess and had taken a break from Go. I do not expect to play in many tournaments unitl college is over, but I will continue having close games with experts and high class A players until I decide finally between chess or Go
@kooler2004: My point is that at the PROFESSIONAL level, good moves in Go are based on a surprising amount of calculation and a lot of calculating. To be sure, the SELECTION of moves to consider during calculation involves much intuition and experience, but the CHOICE of final moves is based a lot on counting.
In contrast, at the amateur shodan level, I was poor at fuseki, excellent at chuban involving life and death struggles, and superb at yose.
@DavidForthoffer Yes micheal redmond 9p calculates the last 30 moves of each of his close games to see if there is a better way to win and improve his calculating ability. A 9 kyu friend of mine has a theory that if you can calculate at least 10 moves ahead you can get to 1p, He also plays 4-5kyu in life in death while I play 7kyu level but only about 8 kyu in life and death which I'm improving.
@iluvadar1977 Greater number of potential games does not imply greater complexity. That is a very naive understanding. For example, the number pi has an infinite number of digits, but is an extremely simple number. Go has many more possibilities than does chess, but whether the game is "more complex" or not is moot, since a complete understanding of either stretches very far beyond the limit of human mental capacity. It would be like arguing Mozart is more genius than Einstein.
yes it makes it more complex, (the term complex has many uses, the meaning of complex in cognitive science its not the same than its meaning in mathemathics).
so, mathemathically makes it more complex, cognitively, i think chess is equally or even more complex than go. the emotional and even philosophical complexity of both games is open to dicussion.
i love both games, both are full of complexity and symbolism
@iluvadar1977 Well the meaning of "complex" in mathematics is a number which is part real and part imaginary, but I don't believe thats what you meant. Semantics aside, my point is that until someone can completely understand the game in all possible aspects (this is me talking about cognitive science), it matters not which one has more possible games (what you call "mathematical complexity"). In essence, you agreed with my original statement.
that's not the only meaning of complex in mathemathics, study dynamic systems mathemathics and you'llfind out what it means.
but i agree with you, the bigger complexity of one game doesnt make the other game less valuable or beautifull. so go is more mathemathically complex than chess, but that in the long term doesnt matter, except for programmers who are still trying to make a program or a computer that can play go like a good human player.
@farlyso Pi is an extremely simple number. Its just a ratio. Albeit, not one easily expressed in digits, but that doesn't make it difficult. The concept is very easy - circumference/diameter of a circle. Whats complicated about that?
@iluvadar1977 Your not counting all the different chess variants like chess960, for instance...Go has no variants, at least i don't think it does. Except scoring, of course...and that is just a very minor thing.
@guthax30 you can make a go board any shape, the board can be shaped like the state of North Carolina. You can give handicaps make the board 100x100 or even play with three colors of stones. Look I used to love chess a lot through the age of about 22 it was my favorite thing to do.
Go just blows it out of the water. Tic-tac-toe is to checkers is to chess is to Go.
@maquih I respect your passion but i simply don't see it that way. Go holds no romance for me...there is no humanity in those pieces or that board...they are simply bits of black and white stone scattered about on a scrap of gridded wood. Now chess...THAT is an emotional game. Chess is dramatic...
You are also not counting for all the different families of chess that come from Asia...
@guthax30 I don't disagree with your assessment that Chess is more human than Go. Chess reflects the uniquely western philosophy of war; two armies facing off on a battlefield.
Indeed, I believe that Go transcends humanity, if there are aliens in outerspace, there's a good chance they play Go, I think.
Don't get me wrong, Chess is great and certainly a very complex game that no human will ever figure out, but I prefer Go for it's more transcendental nature.
@maquih So i suppose our argument boils down to aesthetics...and that's okay. I respect your love of a beautiful game, even though it is not a love i share...
@hungarian93 Not to seem like a jerk either, but that is an extremely ignorant comment. Any decent player of chess would appreciate the difficulty of mastering a strategic board game like Go. Check out some Chess grandmasters who have commented on the beauty of Go.
go club? sounds very interesting, anyone is allowed? but I've just started learning it for two days now on my own... plus, it's difficult to find go clubs in my country huhuhu
Totally disagree about your comment that watching old Go games will not improve skills.
Go games centuries ago were more based on more action and most modern day pros use these old games as a reference to analyse to develop a better understanding.
What you are saying may apply to beginners while they are trying to grasp the basic understand of the game, but if you are a experienced dan player you should know that what you said is false.
@Nanosempai I'd like to have someone teach me about this game, but it's hard to find one who plays GO in my country... But, now I've just started learning it for 2 days through google... I'm so excited & I've even ordered the first magnetic travel set of Go, can't wait for it to arrive (my country doesn't sell that)
White's play at 3:16 in the center.... Also, the follow up and how he used it was genius too and after that you can sort of tell that black gets a bit more aggressive.
Well, just like the spoiler says. Goseigen was clearly the best player in the world before he had the accident, which caused him severe brain damage, and this game which Shusai asked all of his students to help, which is move 160, his stuent pointed out the best move and reduced GoSeigen's territory by nearly 20 moku. Otherwise Go Seigen could have won.
so who 1
tavogp 2 months ago
I have no idea what just happend
rubentg1 4 months ago 2
what program program can i play this on
ivankomar1 4 months ago
@ivankomar1 KGS (Kisedo go), IGS (pandanet), Tygem, wbaduk, OGS, DGS, yahoo etc.
OtakuViking 2 months ago
Hm,I think it was because of Chess that I came to understand and appreciate Go better than it just being a simple game of stones and intersection.I think Chess is just more visible in the Social aspect with limiting moves that reflect rank and piece shapes making it an obvious game while Go let's you think a little bit more.In Go one stone may end up acting as a pawn in some cases as well as a bishop.Also in Go you're more of a General on battle base than an Aristocrat waiting in a castle.
MsSillypanda123 4 months ago
the options at go is 3^80
and the best computer is a 4d (amatuer) at go but the best computer can beat world champion at chess
nivkingniv 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I love Go and decided to help a friend when he created a Non-Profit Organization call Spread Go. I think you can guess what we are about. Check out our facebook page at facebook.com/pages/SpreadGo/151071991636616 Check us out and show your support or help us spread the word.
TheMarkedOfHell 6 months ago
First couple seconds of the audio made me think I was gonna get rick rolled.
PoopShitMario 6 months ago 22
Where can I find this sfg?
jowil93 6 months ago
Nice video but lose the terrible,brain-rattling music.
knicklas48 6 months ago
Its so Beautiful!! :D
inksm3ar 6 months ago
what is used to simulate the game?
GuyTakashi73 8 months ago
damn nice game.
otakucraft92 8 months ago
Till the first second I thought that I was going to be rickrolled
Genovit 1 year ago
bob dole
undertyped1 1 year ago
H8 think by honinbo student.I read the book
jariworld 1 year ago
Music Sucks!!!
rhcp4565 1 year ago 2
The music is ridiculously distracting and entirely inappropriate >_<
ChromeBallz 1 year ago 16
Okay, I'm a colege student who mostly plays go as a hobby. I don't think I'm too bad, but I'd like to get better. Can anyone point out any of the big moves that were played in this match and how they influenced the rest of the game?
ManticoreFire 1 year ago 2
@scsteeldrums That definition doesn't tell us a lot about pi. Do you know how to prove that pi is an irrational number? How to prove that the ratio circumference/diameter is constant and equals pi? Did you know that [1 +(1/2)+(1/4)+(1/9)+... (1/n²) + ...] = pi²/6? If you study calculus, trigonometry, physics, ... you'll know how much you'll need to use this number. Most mathematicians say e^(i.pi)+1=0 is such a wonderful formula 'cause it has the 5 most important numbers. :)
farlyso 1 year ago
Do you have the sgf or know somewhere I could find it?
brotherofAnubus 1 year ago
This game is so exciting! So exciting that we made a Hikaru no go-inspired filmatized version of it, including all drama surrounding it! (Shusai adjourning the game several times, etc.)
Click on my name and you'll find it on my channel front page - "The Game of the Century"
henzino 1 year ago
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henzino 1 year ago
Comment removed
henzino 1 year ago
Thanks.
simonguoxm 1 year ago
to be the game of the century you could have passed slowly...
ikeru112 1 year ago
Good ol' Hoju, going home and generating those stochastic analytics using the hundreds of "students" from the Honinbo Go house. Sure the H8 move was insane, but it didn't necessarily have to come from Nobuaki Maeda. You put a couple hundred 9d's in a building, give them 24 hours to analyze possible variations, and more than one of them will eventually go "OH SHIT HOW ABOUT THIS MOVE?"
darkjeshush 1 year ago
the records is nice, but can you make the board square and slow the moves down, cheers
rung3000 1 year ago
what is the program for the virtual go game?
blahblabahl 1 year ago
H8 is a very good tesuji~ amazing move
Chansavang 1 year ago
I wouldn't necessarily call it a problem that Shusai could adjourn and play out different moves, because while he's thinking his opponent can also use that time to think.
SkyX19 1 year ago
@SkyX19: Shusai being able to adjourn WITHOUT sealing a move is a HUGE advantage. It means he can spend all his time trying to find the best move. Meanwhile, Go Seigen may be faced with, say, three main possible moves by Shusai and can only spend about a third of his time on each possible move. A MUCH FAIRER way is for the person adjourning to have to seal his move (as is done in professional chess). That way, both players have to spend time considering their response to opponent's moves.
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer In modern go they play sealed moves as well. Not sure when the practice started.
Maxdwolf 1 year ago
hm hungarian93 first trying getting to 9dan then u can call it simple and stupid
lance1236451 1 year ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Not to seem like a jerk, but this game seem so stupid and simple. Almost like intriguing version of connect the dots. I have playing chess for a few years now and can say it is far superior to this..
hungarian93 1 year ago
@hungarian93
lol go is much more complex than chess, just do some math and you'll find out
iluvadar1977 1 year ago 23
@iluvadar1977
Doesn't make chess any less commendable
Molterno 1 year ago
@iluvadar1977: What math? That each move in Go allows hundreds of possible stupid moves at the beginning, compounded into zillions of variations? Both chess and Go are so complex that playing near perfectly is too difficult for anyone who has not dedicated years of study to it. Go has the advantage of a smaller margin of victory, and less reliance on memorizing openings, but that is different from 'complexity'. (I was an amateur shodan in Go and USCF Master in chess.)
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer Dave, they've done analyses of this. Go is more complex by an order of magnitude or more.
Maxdwolf 1 year ago
@Maxdwolf: I place little confidence in "they". If you can tell me who "they" are and where their analyses are, I may well find flaws in their analyses. I sure hope YOU do not believe claims every time someone says, "They proved it."
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer The complexity comes from the brilliant unique features which chess cannot begin to comprehend. Chess focuses on alot of mathmatics and logic but the closest thing to influence is postional play. Go shows that humans have a gift that computers do not which is judgement. A computer can't even imagine playing shodan level because the moves and logic of Go aren't concrete like mathmatics. Good moves in go are based on human judgement which makes Go more complex.
kooler2004 1 year ago 2
@kooler2004 Chess offers very little outside concrete variations and mathmatical solutions. still both games require years of dedication to be good at them.
kooler2004 1 year ago
@kooler2004: Companies and programmers have concentrated a lot more on developing good chess programs than on developing good go programs. IBM has spent millions of dollars on this, and has arguably recouped much if not all of it by applying its Deep Blue Technologies to multi-billion dollar businesses. The only big financial incentive for Go programs is a million dollar prize that expired long ago.
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer False. Big competitions in europe are held each year between programers and their go bots. The reason why a computer has not mastered Go is what the programmers call artificial intelligence which in the history of computers has never been achieved. The bot industry is far from a million dollar industry and it is far from dead.
kooler2004 1 year ago
@kooler2004: The Go idea of "big competitions" pales in comparison to the money at stake for chess programs. Your "The [go] bot industry is far from a million dollar industry" statement simply reinforces that. Since the Ing competition expired, the largest prize I have seen is $20,000. That is a pittance compared to the millions of dollars IBM has spent on computer hardward and software for chess.
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer you missed the point entirely. If a big industry tried to make a deep blue for Go it would fail with current technology. You can ask any programmer who has tried to make a bot surpass 1 kyu and they will tell you no deep blue computer can be made for Go until artifical intelligence is created. The reason being only human minds can grasp the key concepts of aji and positional judgement.
kooler2004 1 year ago
@kooler2004: I am confident that with five years' effort I could write a Go program that could beat a professional shodan player. I would embark on that now, if the Ing competition were still active. I hadn't done before because I earned more than the top prize since 1990 working as a computer programmer for Adobe Systems.
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer I understand your point, and I agree that professionals do alot of reading ahead or as chess players call it calculating, but I do not believe that with all the money in the world their will ever be a deep blue for go from my research and from what the programmers say. I would like to see a Go program beat a 1p with no handicap, and if you manage to do it I will be thorughly impressed. If you do not make it to grandmaster within the next 5-10 years would you come back to Go?
kooler2004 1 year ago
@kooler2004: I was most active in both chess and Go in the late 1960's, at U.C. Berkeley. Now I am an old man, semi-retired. I am certainly not pursuing chess advancement any more; that would involve more scholarship and memorization than I care for. I have had an idea for a Go program that I think would be very powerful. I am tempted to work on that, though I have fewer energized hours per day now than then, and my wife is pushing me to convert "uncomfortably retired" to "comfortably retired".
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer I understand if you have not already Post chess and Go lessons on youtube it would be much appreciated by both communities
kooler2004 1 year ago
@kooler2004: I also want to thank you for your intelligent, civil dialogue, which is so rare on YouTube.
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer You are absolutely correct and I do not wish to upset people in discussions. Thankyou for being polite and discussing this stuff with me calmly. I am glad that we both agree on certain points.
kooler2004 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer The Wikipedia page on computer Go lists some of the basic reasons that it's hard to write a good Go player. Many Faces, one of the best programs today, has been under development for about 30 years by a 3-dan who is also a knowledgeable AI expert. It incorporates his thought process (and he's better than you at the game) as well as cutting-edge AI and search techniques that you have not likely been exposed to. "5 years" is big talk from someone who hasn't ever tried it.
Xezlec 1 year ago
@Xezlec: Yep. It IS big talk. Point me to a credible million dollar reward, and I'll deliver.
P.S. I was a better player than David Fotland back when I wrote some of the code for Many Faces of Go.
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@kooler2004: Good moves in Go are based on a surprising amount of calculation and a lot of counting. Certainly judgement plays a part, as it does in chess. But the real reason we do not have Go programs playing as well as professional Go players is that there has not been a big financial incentive for that.
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer I doubt by just caculating and counting you got to shodan. My friend is helping out someone who did those two things and nothing else and was 18 kyu for 3 years now he is 15 kyu because positional judgement is and the big picture are the biggest thing in go. Life and death is 10% of Go
kooler2004 1 year ago
@kooler2004 Right. I got to amateur shodan by study, intuition, ability to balance needs all over the board, and calculating up to 40 moves (ply) ahead. (Calculating in Go in a tactical situation is a lot easier than in chess because the moves are simpler and each move simplifies the position [except for the rare play-beneath-the-stones]. In chess, I rarely calculated more than 20 moves ahead.)
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer Yes I agree the most I have calculated in a tournament chess game is 10 moves, but other positional play chess is 90% tactics unlike Go wich encompasses so much more.
kooler2004 1 year ago
@kooler2004: You are a class A chess player. That means you do not understand much of chess beyond simple tactics. I am a titled Master chess player, which means I am only beginning to understand the subtleties of positional chess at the professional level. In both chess and Go, there is a continuum between positional plays and tactical plays, with the tactics laying the foundation for positional plays. To say chess is 90% tactics means you do not understand the positional aspects.
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer My positional play which most of it I learned from annotated game review of alkhine, fischer, kasporov, and the help of experts that I have played and a few I have beaten is sound in my mind. I'm at the point to where position not material dictates if I keep playing or resign. Once I learned material does not matter I began studying and developing attacking chess.
kooler2004 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer I'm preoccupied with go and will Go back to chess in a few months as is how it usually goes. last month I played chess and had taken a break from Go. I do not expect to play in many tournaments unitl college is over, but I will continue having close games with experts and high class A players until I decide finally between chess or Go
kooler2004 1 year ago
@kooler2004: My point is that at the PROFESSIONAL level, good moves in Go are based on a surprising amount of calculation and a lot of calculating. To be sure, the SELECTION of moves to consider during calculation involves much intuition and experience, but the CHOICE of final moves is based a lot on counting.
In contrast, at the amateur shodan level, I was poor at fuseki, excellent at chuban involving life and death struggles, and superb at yose.
DavidForthoffer 1 year ago
@DavidForthoffer Yes micheal redmond 9p calculates the last 30 moves of each of his close games to see if there is a better way to win and improve his calculating ability. A 9 kyu friend of mine has a theory that if you can calculate at least 10 moves ahead you can get to 1p, He also plays 4-5kyu in life in death while I play 7kyu level but only about 8 kyu in life and death which I'm improving.
kooler2004 1 year ago
@iluvadar1977 Greater number of potential games does not imply greater complexity. That is a very naive understanding. For example, the number pi has an infinite number of digits, but is an extremely simple number. Go has many more possibilities than does chess, but whether the game is "more complex" or not is moot, since a complete understanding of either stretches very far beyond the limit of human mental capacity. It would be like arguing Mozart is more genius than Einstein.
scsteeldrums 1 year ago
@scsteeldrums
yes it makes it more complex, (the term complex has many uses, the meaning of complex in cognitive science its not the same than its meaning in mathemathics).
so, mathemathically makes it more complex, cognitively, i think chess is equally or even more complex than go. the emotional and even philosophical complexity of both games is open to dicussion.
i love both games, both are full of complexity and symbolism
iluvadar1977 1 year ago
@iluvadar1977 Well the meaning of "complex" in mathematics is a number which is part real and part imaginary, but I don't believe thats what you meant. Semantics aside, my point is that until someone can completely understand the game in all possible aspects (this is me talking about cognitive science), it matters not which one has more possible games (what you call "mathematical complexity"). In essence, you agreed with my original statement.
scsteeldrums 1 year ago
@scsteeldrums
that's not the only meaning of complex in mathemathics, study dynamic systems mathemathics and you'llfind out what it means.
but i agree with you, the bigger complexity of one game doesnt make the other game less valuable or beautifull. so go is more mathemathically complex than chess, but that in the long term doesnt matter, except for programmers who are still trying to make a program or a computer that can play go like a good human player.
iluvadar1977 1 year ago
@iluvadar1977 Computers don't play chess or go like a human player at all.
undertehlaw 1 year ago
@undertehlaw
computers can't _play_ anything, since they don' t have any fun =)
zsoujiro 7 months ago
@scsteeldrums
pi isn't a simple number at all. lol
farlyso 1 year ago
@farlyso Pi is an extremely simple number. Its just a ratio. Albeit, not one easily expressed in digits, but that doesn't make it difficult. The concept is very easy - circumference/diameter of a circle. Whats complicated about that?
scsteeldrums 1 year ago
@iluvadar1977 Your not counting all the different chess variants like chess960, for instance...Go has no variants, at least i don't think it does. Except scoring, of course...and that is just a very minor thing.
guthax30 4 months ago
@guthax30 you can make a go board any shape, the board can be shaped like the state of North Carolina. You can give handicaps make the board 100x100 or even play with three colors of stones. Look I used to love chess a lot through the age of about 22 it was my favorite thing to do.
Go just blows it out of the water. Tic-tac-toe is to checkers is to chess is to Go.
maquih 4 months ago
@maquih I respect your passion but i simply don't see it that way. Go holds no romance for me...there is no humanity in those pieces or that board...they are simply bits of black and white stone scattered about on a scrap of gridded wood. Now chess...THAT is an emotional game. Chess is dramatic...
You are also not counting for all the different families of chess that come from Asia...
guthax30 4 months ago
@guthax30 I don't disagree with your assessment that Chess is more human than Go. Chess reflects the uniquely western philosophy of war; two armies facing off on a battlefield.
Indeed, I believe that Go transcends humanity, if there are aliens in outerspace, there's a good chance they play Go, I think.
Don't get me wrong, Chess is great and certainly a very complex game that no human will ever figure out, but I prefer Go for it's more transcendental nature.
maquih 4 months ago
@maquih So i suppose our argument boils down to aesthetics...and that's okay. I respect your love of a beautiful game, even though it is not a love i share...
guthax30 4 months ago
@hungarian93 Not to seem like a jerk either, but that is an extremely ignorant comment. Any decent player of chess would appreciate the difficulty of mastering a strategic board game like Go. Check out some Chess grandmasters who have commented on the beauty of Go.
jm0n3y21 1 year ago
@hungarian93 I'm a class A chess player and still find this game far more interesting and complex.
kooler2004 1 year ago
@hungarian93 read up on rules, jerk
HaterzSayHi 5 months ago
Swedish techno music.. I find that a bit conflicting with the beautiful game... :/
But you go Go Seigen!
Thymonico 2 years ago
guys if u like go join my go club
Flareknife 2 years ago
go club? sounds very interesting, anyone is allowed? but I've just started learning it for two days now on my own... plus, it's difficult to find go clubs in my country huhuhu
vandanatacia 1 year ago
if only i could adjourn my games and ask a pro what to do...
BuckKnowhow 2 years ago 2
Thanks for posting that! I'm having a hard time finding an SGF
glahfist 2 years ago
yea i couldn't find the sgf either and i just thought it was so odd.
robertleforte 2 years ago
Isnt go othello???? Im just wondering
Daillestpostman 2 years ago
No, but othello can be played on a goban (a lot of games can actually).
srn347 2 years ago
@Daillestpostman nope othello is a simple board game made with similarities to this complex 4000 year old game.
kooler2004 1 year ago
Shusai didn't deserve that win, even if 2 moku back then is 9 moku today with komi included.
srn347 2 years ago
great music choice, it got me right pumped for the awesome game.
people complaining: turn down the volume and play your own music...
zanetusken 2 years ago
Woha! I'm workin up a sweat!
Vanchee09 2 years ago
The music was to distracting.
LatterDaySaint1029 2 years ago
yeah, it was absolutely awful. what a dreadful choice
ikillhippies 2 years ago
i dont really know how to play go lol.
gamerlegend45 2 years ago
Space is points. All you need to know.
oros123456 2 years ago
me either, but i want to learn, but there isn't anywhere I could go to learn...
:'[
lokdomar777 2 years ago
yahoo has a guide that gets you started.
exodiaj 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
black was being dumb a lot of the times
BladePenguin 2 years ago
oh and one more thing,
san san+ cosmic go.
wtf? that makes no sense
Reiter555 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
old games -_-
try watching new games if you want to imrove more...
Reiter555 3 years ago
lol It's go seigen reiter
Nanosempai 3 years ago
Totally disagree about your comment that watching old Go games will not improve skills.
Go games centuries ago were more based on more action and most modern day pros use these old games as a reference to analyse to develop a better understanding.
What you are saying may apply to beginners while they are trying to grasp the basic understand of the game, but if you are a experienced dan player you should know that what you said is false.
BrendanPanFlautist 2 years ago
Comment removed
Nanosempai 2 years ago
@Nanosempai I'd like to have someone teach me about this game, but it's hard to find one who plays GO in my country... But, now I've just started learning it for 2 days through google... I'm so excited & I've even ordered the first magnetic travel set of Go, can't wait for it to arrive (my country doesn't sell that)
vandanatacia 1 year ago
Go is like creating art
OhMymy 3 years ago 21
that was an intense match, i thought black was dominating in the beginning.
AndurilWielder 3 years ago
i know yu from tigeresmouth! ^_^
henry646 3 years ago
what is the brilliant move?
tdotc 3 years ago
White's play at 3:16 in the center.... Also, the follow up and how he used it was genius too and after that you can sort of tell that black gets a bit more aggressive.
Omaplata41 2 years ago
waaaauuuuuuu... sucky music...
TomValedro 3 years ago 4
aw it's not that bad lol
tdotc 3 years ago
i thought it was fun hehe
hikaruUSA 3 years ago
Great video. You should post the crazy games played by Go Seigen vs. Kitani Minarou
tylerumn 2 years ago
seigen not the best at Yose...
dood whats the name of the 2nd song that starts close to the end??
zanetusken 3 years ago
mellan oss tvaa - basshunter
hikaruUSA 3 years ago
what's the music in this video? i love it!
zanetusken 3 years ago
its the instrumental version of Boten Ana by Basshunter ^^
hikaruUSA 3 years ago
thx, how about the second song?
zanetusken 3 years ago
Well, just like the spoiler says. Goseigen was clearly the best player in the world before he had the accident, which caused him severe brain damage, and this game which Shusai asked all of his students to help, which is move 160, his stuent pointed out the best move and reduced GoSeigen's territory by nearly 20 moku. Otherwise Go Seigen could have won.
AuroraExcutio 3 years ago
Do you happen to have the Shusai vs. Kitani Minoru game?
Mystrohan 3 years ago
I didn't know they played, I have many games of Minoru vs Seigen.
hikaruUSA 3 years ago
I believe that was Shusai's last game - he died two days later.
Mystrohan 3 years ago
is that the blood vomiting game?
hikaruUSA 3 years ago
No - that was a Honinbo Jowa game, I think. A Nobel Prize winner wrote a book about the game I'm describing, I'm pretty sure.
Mystrohan 3 years ago
This is awesome
Omaplata41 3 years ago
I liked the video. Keep up them up!
Check out my newest Hikaru No Go AMV
sakonukon1316 3 years ago
Great upload. Thank you.
Bloodlovefreak 3 years ago
how come no bodys watched this?
kylegomations 3 years ago
Because I uploaded it about 3 hours ago XD
hikaruUSA 3 years ago