It was both the monotheistic god delusion and a bronze age book of fairy tales that brought the towers down in the first place! All theists are retarded!
Religious freedom is the protected rights of both organized superstition and its devout followers to force their bronze age morals, rules and laws upon all of society for their selfish desires, prejudices and the countless personal interpretations of what they believe their God would demand of them if he existed.
There were muslim victims of 9/11 also. I would just love to see the look on the Christian faces if there were an equal sized Muslim symbol right next to that stupid cross. Religion caused this event, and using any religious symbol at the memorial is a big fuck you to everyone.
Pathetic attempt at arguing that it's not an exclusive religious symbol. That punk should be ashamed that he would be so dishonest in his heart in an attempt to have his religion be most important.
I´m not a christian, but I don´t get the argument. When you´re atheist, why should you care about religious symbols being displayed. And about the equality thing, what is a symbol of atheism? What does he want to display there and more importantly why?
He doesn't want to display anything. If there is a seperation of church and state, then there should be no religious icons displayed in public ground.
@TommyPachac "When you´re atheist, why should you care about religious symbols being displayed."
Basically, religious organizations who want to use government property as a tool to promote their superstition is asking everyone else to pay for their advertising. That's just not ok. Not only because it's unconstitutional, but also because you are asking us to do something that is literally incomprehensible to us. We just can't respect it, because you have no evidence for your claims.
@TommyPachac Ultimately, that is the reason why there is a separation of church and state and why the supreme court have their Lemon test for laws having a secular purpose. Secular purposes are comprehensible to everyone, even if we don't agree with them, and is consequently enforceable in a democracy. Collective projects or laws based on the premise that some superstitious idea is true is just not the kind of thing we can do together.
I think it's just bad taste to have the cross there, considering that religion was the reason that all of those people died. You would think that religion would be the last thing you would want represented there. Then again, the religios aren't known for their logic.
I seriously think the guy on the left doesn't get the point that David is trying to make. David doesn't mind that the cross is there as long as atheists get their own symbol of rememberence.
Make a private place with private donations to go see the cross. Republicans want to make everything private so make this private as well and the constitution will be unharmed. There were all kinds of people with different religions killed in 9/11 so to single out christians as being more harmed is a bad idea.
You could find a layer to say that lighting your hand on fire and fist fucking a goat has constitutional merit. They are a dime a dozen and are swine when parade so flagrantly around the wrong side of an argument.
Freedom of religion - government will specify no religious denomination. This is why the atheist is right.
Form now on when arguing constitutional matters on TV, atheists should carry a copy of the bill of rights with them so they can hit neocons over the head with it.
The only way I can imagine two cross beams (out of thousands that made up the building) as history is that apparently the deaths of Christians are more important than everyone else's.
What kind of sick bastard takes comfort in twisted pieces of metal at ground zero? Also, this is solid evidence that you don't have to have two brain cells to rub together to become a lawyer.
Do the christians not recognise that the Cross is a symbol of torture - do they think that if (improbably) Jesus came back he would want to see a CROSS.
Based on all the WTC debris and rubble now sitting at the bottom of the ocean, and the manner in which it was collected, hauled away and disposed of; who knows how many other "historical" religious symbols there were in there.
It's a museum, I don't mind religious symbols of any type being in a museum providing it is relevant. Religions whether you like it or not are part of history.
Crosses are SO complex and so hard to make "naturally"
obviously god made the metal form, even though the entire building was made of crosses and it just happened to form that way as easily as it did and even though it was so deformed that you'd have such an imagination to make a simple object doesn't disprove god I HATE YOU BIBLE DOES GOD AND BIBLE DERP HERPIN FUCK
To say "he/she is entitled to his/her position, but..." is such an arrogant and intellectually dishonest way of arguing. Oh, aren't you merciful. What is actually being said is that the other people are entitled to essentially being wrong, but I am right - just cause. Instead of measuring the different positions legitimacy up against each other, it is basically just being asserted that one position is correct - and thats that. Might as well just say "nuh-huh", as thats how much sense being made.
I disagree with Silverman on this, while the Cross maybe a religious symbol it's going into a museum to be on display. Many museums across the world and in the United States display religious artifacts in them, I don't see why this should be an exception. There is such a thing as taking something too far, I definitely do not see this as an endorsement of religion but a part of the history of the WTC Terrorist Attack.
"I am speaking as an attorney ..." and therefore I can make up anything I like as long as it sounds like I know what I am talking about ... which I don't.
Thousands of people died in a senseless and pointless terrorist attack that achieved nothing for anybody in the world, how on Earth did a metal cross bring anybody comfort from that?
What a hateful cunt you are. I happen to be an atheist, but to call religious people offensive because they believe in God is just fucking ignorant. Do you really find a cross offensive? or are you just first year college puke who just discovered atheism so you feel the need to argue with religious people on everything?
If you are going to say that I'm a cunt for calling Christians offensive because of their ignorance, than what does that make you, who called me offensive because I'm ignorant?
Meanwhile, yes, an instrument of torture and death is offensive, especially when I'm being told that I have to respect and tolerate it. Christian doctrine would have it's followers call you and me the antichrist. There is plenty to be offended about.
An instrument of torture and death? how many Christians do you know who are murderers? You're offended by their religion which you call stupid, then you get offended because they call you the antichrist. Two wrongs don't make a right. You have a lot of hate in your heart and I'd say it's misguided. Just like the atheist in this video, you need to learn how to pick your battles. Fight religious people when it matters, not over a stupid cross in a museum.
I'm sorry, is this the same person that called me a cunt just a little while ago? Is this now the person telling me that I have a lot of hatred in my heart?
Do you know what a hypocrite is? Because you've proved yourself one twice in as many comments.
You are far too stupid to have a conversation with me.
I'm just as much of a hypocrite as you, and I admit that. And you are a hateful cunt. I stand by my words. Why don't you go ahead and answer my questions, asshole. Or better yet, take my advice. No intelligent individual would be offended by a religious symbol in a museum. You and atheists like you are completely out of touch and have no idea who the real enemies are... they sure as shit aren't some dopey Christians who want a cross in a museum.
And keep picking fights with the safe religious people, by the way. The ones you know won't break down your door and lop off your head. I don't see many outspoken atheists go after Muslims except maybe Bill Maher, Hitchens, and Dawkins. The rest are cowards just like you.
I didn't search this video out, it was favorited by somebody I'm subscribed to. It's funny to me how people don't acknowledge the double standard that exists in the atheist community. The ferocity of the attacks on Christians is so much worse than anything you see on videos pertaining to Muslims. Shooting fish in a barrel must be so much fun.
It takes a few minutes of research to find out that Anders Breivik wasn't even a religious individual. He murdered those people because of the multiculturalism that has been wreaking havoc on western European countries for decades now. But go ahead and think he did it for purely religious reasons.
Until there are Christian terrorist cells around the world looking to kill innocent people, I think we can all safely assume that islam is the problem as far as religion is concerned.
There are many Christian terrorist cells around the world. Also, if you're going to point at Islam as being a "bad" religion, then you should realize that Islam and Christianity and very similar in nature- the only difference lies in who each religion considers its prophet.
Name some of those christian terrorist cells. Know of a Christian equivalent to Al-Qaeda?
And I do agree that the religions are similar in nature.. because they're both Abrahamic and monotheistic. The main difference is in the followers. There just aren't that many Christians who follow the bible as Muslims do with the Quran.
Hutaree is a recent one, but if you're not willing to do the research yourself, I'm not going to do it for you. There are probably are terrorist cells equivalent to Al-Qaeda, and just because we don't know about them, doesn't mean they don't exist.
Hutaree? you're right, i had to look them up. A group with about ten members, how dangerous. Remind me, how many acts of terrorism did hutaree commit? any suicide bombings? nope.. because western governments don't support actions like that. And lol at you saying that there are "probably" Christian terrorist cells out there that we don't know about. The whole purpose of a terrorist cell is to invoke fear through actions, then take responsibility for those actions in the name of the cause.
You have a naive understanding of what violent and determined people can do in groups. And just because there are no suicide bombings, means they aren't terrorists? Then I guess blowing up abortion clinics doesn't count because they aren't suicide bombers. Of course there are "probably" cells we don't know about. We can't know of every terrorist cell that exists. You'd be amazed at how much domestic Christian terrorism there is.
@tedatlas Perhaps you're unaware of the modern day Christian Witch hunts currently taking place in Africa, or that gays are murdered on mass there because the bible says they're sinners. Or that not even 60 years ago, blacks were lynched in America by Christians, using the bible as their justification. Islam does not have the monopoly on religious attrocities, even in this day and age.
@AtheistExplains how is a cross offensive? if u dont believe in it than it shouldnt mean anything to you..religion is not going to end its based on faith..science and faith cannot not be debated, faith is the beleif in the unknown while science is what we have proven has humans..debating religion is a waste of time for atheist..what you call ignorance has helped millions get through a life not worth living it gives people "peace of mind" and to attack that is offensive and a waste of your time
You do realize that the cross is a symbol of torture and death, right? Putting it up in public display with public funds, as if its something I'm supposed to respect, is offensive. It'd be like public funds went to building a shrine, to the Oklahoma City building, it was consecrated by a voodoo witch doctor, and a large hangman's noose was prominently displayed.
@AtheistExplains youre not supposed to respect it youre supposed to ignore it the cross has no meaning to you, if you believe it stands for torture and death than you believe in the faith behind it
Or I could simply understand the history of what crosses were used for. The legend of Jesus isn't the only person crucified on a cross. What it stands for remains the same, religion or no.
@AtheistExplains i understand and respect your opinion 100% but with your logic we would have to knock down alot more than a cross in nyc to please everyones personal beleifs...what about the people that lost their life on 9/11? they are exactly what the cross stands for, pointless murder, the cross is a perfect symbol for ground zero according to what you believe
4:25 (Someone seems to be breaking out in a nervous sweat. Guess the comment about 'writing Jesus on the cross' would make anyone with a half-baked law degree come up with a lie in front of national television.)
As a non-believer, I have to say I completely disagree with David Silverman here. And that has nothing to do with the fact I find him to be a complete twat.
Woah, woah, woah, what the hell. I'm sorry but the Christians get their cross they found but AS I RECALL, there was a heap of wires and melted steel that looked like the one and only flying spaghetti monster and it is unconstitutional for them not to hang our noodely father up as well.
Does athiesm have a symbol in the deaths of more than a thousand of people... NO! Proven fact that those that join athiesm are mentally stupid, it is the truth but funny.
@wowamonn The cross has its value to many Christians however you should remember that the majority of the people that died in the 9/11 were Christians and most of the population in the US are Christians. Therefore no one wins this battle. It's all about salvation my friend and what these dumb athiest are doing is disrespectful to the dead! I won't argue with you over anything because you already have an answer so it is a waste of time!
@Gr33kElite Atheists are one of the best educated.I don't know any Atheist below Bachelor and You say these dumb atheists? 99% of scientists are Atheists-You know those guys who created ways that feed 35% of the world, that develop medicine..These dumb atheists like You called them.
I wonder what You contribute to society?I guess nothing significant if You were educated You wouldn't say - these dumb atheists
@Overkillerr I assure you that there are far more money dumb atheist than ones with a fucking brain. Let's not go too far when it comes to those that have contributed to society. You don't know me and it is better than that. One day I will come back to you and prove something however probably by then it would be too late. Atheism within a society creates individualism of which this creates greediness you end up putting money first than life! This has been proven if u have done ur research.
@Gr33kElite I'm an Atheist and never put money first. This always get's me in trouble with You good believers - You just don't understand that someone doesn't do things for money. You don't understand cause You only help others to go to heaven or to build a bigger Church. You always give away Bibles- that's marketing. Atheists don't go and help to convert others like You in Africa.
So stop saying Your BS O.K.
Churches collect money and build another church to collect -what % goes for charity?
@Overkillerr Good luck to you if you are atheist I don't really give a shit. I respect your opinion and i deserve the same respect back.Fristly,I don't except the church system of collecting money from individualism.Secondly, It is not BS but purely factual.Thirdly,once you do your research for 3 years reading different resports of individuals and media coverages it will result to one answer individualism that is the term of atheism you might be the smallest percentage that don't think like that
@Gr33kElite " Therefore no one wins this battle. It's all about salvation my friend and what these dumb athiest are doing is disrespectful to the dead! "
Unfortunalty the US constitution forbids the Govenment from supporting any religous position including installing a percieved religous symbol with tax payers money. So evan though most of folks who died in 911 were of the christian faith. It is against the law for the US Government to install this supposed religous symbol.
@wowamonn Since when has the US respected their constitution or even policies? Well... I don't know where have you been living all these years but "never"!!
@wowamonn There are more important things to worry abouth that affect eevryone and not one secotr in society today! That is where you, the citizens, should be getting yourselves involves in!
@Gr33kElite Seperation of Church and State is my primary focus. Along with other Atheists and Agnostics. My fellow citizens can believe in thier god and pray and go to church and all that fuzzy stuff. As long as they keep it to themselves.
I'm not sure what to think of this. From an rather layman's perspective I think the atheists are in the wrong. I don't care much for Christianity or any other theistic religion but the cross-shaped beams are merely that.. beams that happen to be T/cross-shaped which are just conventional structures which there were dozens of spread over the whole of ground zero. If people project a christian cross on it, so be it. To me it's just cross-shaped beams.
@Swamoez0rs Ask anyone why they're putting up a cross shaped beam though instead of a slab of brick, wiring, or litterally any other piece of rubble and the answer is?
That's the problem, the ONLY reason they're putting it up is because they want it to represent a cross, ie religious promotion, that is indeed unconstitutional. If they had said "oh we're just putting rubble up to remember and then someone looked at the piece and said "that looks like a cross" that'd be different.
@DarkBunnyLord But aren't you free to interpret it exactly how you like? If the majority of people erected it in Christian euphoria thenn that's fine. Others can interpret it the way they like and no one can tell them how they should or shouldn't look upon it.
@Swamoez0rs Again if it had been put up "just" as wreckage then that's fine, but it hasn't. It was wreckage taken from the sight, reformed into a cross, and put up specifically for Christians. It's like if they built a church and said "you can just interpret it as a mcdonalds that doesn't serve food".
@DarkBunnyLord You make a good point. If taking in consideration that these beams have been indeed assembled (as they appear to have) into its current shape with that intention I can understand why one would protest. I'm still a bit passive on this one but I see your point.
@Swamoez0rs They have (in fact the commenter mentions this in the post). The beams where originally shorter on the cross section, diagonal, bent, and twisted with several melted section. They've been repositioned to look more cross like and the melting / warping straightened out.
@DarkBunnyLord PS: But don't get me wrong. I don't feel too happy about it and find it somewhat inconsiderate towards those who do not share Christian beliefs and/or have grown tired of the Christian coating and even invading an area as loaded with emotion as ground zero. But I do feel like one has to pick his/her battles and wonder if this conflict is right to be held over the backs of those still grieving.
I didn't really agree with AA on this issue, as long as the cross was impartially explained (that it was seen as a source of hope with the Christian responders), it should be included in the museum. That said, Silverman demolishes this little Pat Robertson toady so thoroughly that it's beautiful.
I think if the cross is just part of the museum, like it's just one of many exhibits, then it should be fine. Now, if they were putting it in front of the museum, that suggests that the cross represents the entire museum, or the entire memorial, which I would have a problem with. But as long as that's not the case, it is true that it is part of the history of the event, so it deserves to have a place in the museum, even if the history is dumb.
David is attempting to make eye contact through this entire interview. Some people actually care about what the person sitting next to them is saying.
Christians are like a virus, they are everywhere and in everything. In the last 10 years, they have managed to drop the nation's IQ by 30 points, turning us into a festival of ignorance. It is about time to regulate Churches and their rights. It is also time to make them pay taxes. They are nothing but a criminal enterprise.
I'm confused, atheists are upset because there isn't equal representation... what symbol do atheists have? Nothingness? Air? Both are present in that museum. There's your equal representation. I don't care if you're a believer, a non believer, a scientologist or a starseed; let people find hope in whatever they find hope in. For god sakes David is such an ignorant prick.
@gumme1234 You're a moron for assuming that I'm a believer. I'm just a rational loving human being. David acts like he can tell you for a fact there's no divinity; yet scientists can't even explain how particles gain mass and turn into matter. Atheists make as many assumptions as believers. You either believe, or you don't. It really doesn't matter as long as you're a good person. And don't try and act like all atheists are saints, and all believers are idiots and bad.
Idk why you posted this 5 TIMES, but saying "I don't know how particles have mass or how/why the universe began," is NOT making any assumptions. It's when a person says, "God did it," that assumptions are made. But beliefs and their justifications aren't really the issue here. The issue here is that people think that something illegal is happening here. I disagree and tend to view it like a business that doesn't have any black employees: doesn't automatically equal racism.
@gumme1234 You're a moron for assuming that I'm a believer. I'm just a rational loving human being. David acts like he can tell you for a fact there's no divinity; yet scientists can't even explain how particles gain mass and turn into matter. Atheists make as many assumptions as believers. You either believe, or you don't. It really doesn't matter as long as you're a good person. And don't try and act like all atheists are saints, and all believers are idiots and bad.
@gumme1234 You're a moron for assuming that I'm a believer. I'm just a rational loving human being. David acts like he can tell you for a fact there's no divinity; yet scientists can't even explain how particles gain mass and turn into matter. Atheists make as many assumptions as believers. You either believe, or you don't. It really doesn't matter as long as you're a good person. And don't try and act like all atheists are saints, and all believers are idiots and bad.
Regardless of whether it is unconstitutional the ACLU Lawyer thinks the majority has the right to exclude others they deem different. He simply dressed it up in fancy language to hide the core of his argument.
Let them put the dumb thing up. "Hey look at this miraculous cross left in the burning wreckage where thousands of people had just died, many of them christians, what a beautiful god that would let such a tragedy happen just to allow an inspirational cross to be left behind!"
It's just like the fucking rainbow, a sign of gods love and promise not to AGAIN slaughter billions of people/animals. Xians are mentally ill.
I think it's retarded to be honest. There were thousands of metal crossbeams like that in the wreckage but human christians find one thats kinda standing upright and it becomes a symbol. I can look around my room and find over ten structural crossbeams that means nothing. My neighborhood gets blown to bits though, and one of my crossbeams is standing upright in the rubble...maybe even covered in bits of my atheist self...It stands a fair chance of becoming a religious symbol.
As for being "part of the history of the event", so is every single other piece of rubble from the towers. Why not put up a piece of twisted steel that doesn't symbolize anything? Because then it wouldn't symbolize Christianity.
Remember that these same people who want the cross put up at the memorial protested Park 51 (the community center that contained a Mosque) from being built a block away from the WTC site for the sole reason that it contained a Mosque.
I think another real problem with this is the rather dubious act of associating a large christian element with 9-11....you know...because it would be smart to at least not validate the whole holly war thing with the Jihadists.
Would they be arguing to include the Cross of David if one was found in the rubble? How about the Crescent Moon of Islam? Or the symbol of Scientology? Would they be arguing it was “part of the history of the site”?
xtians are getting too much shit passed under the geis of it being of historical value. We obviously need a better legal argument against historicity.
@y0nd3r For example, an x made of I-beams would have been equally as easy to find and would have had as much historicity, but an X would not have meant anything to xtians.
Remember those pictures where people claimed to see Satan's face in the smoke? I think the Satanists should try to get that picture into the museum, and put it right next to the cross.
It was religion that caused the tragedy in the first place, no religion has a place in marking it! And especially not with a fabricated symbol that was 'corrected' to become more religious.
@marine0816 - Fuck that. If you just give up on equality because of a 'PR issue', then you shouldn't be given that equality. Fight, or be trampled on. Look at some of the biggest equal rights fights in history and you will see how people crossed controversial lines, in order to be given the same rights as everybody else.
In my view David Silverman is interrupting and plumply as well as very charismatic and shrewd, i think many fundamentalists hate him to the death, in every stance Silverman improves the atheist visibility in the way, that "every PR is good PR". But as he advertised for reason rally i was embarressed, sorry, that's not a place for advertisement.
Haha, way to slap that little baby around! What a little turd to think he has the ability to speak for the entirety of the population, AND the entirety of the law! Haha, I almost died laughing at watching him scramble to keep up.
The "cross" is really a plus sign, left for us by that great God of Everything- Mathematicus! Oh my Gawd, I'm saved!!
@itsasin1969 More accurately, it's there to let us know how our Christian "brothers and sisters" really feel about us- we're only worthy of burning in eternal flames. Nice, and very "humble" of you, really.
I have a secular purpose when visiting museums to see statues of Buddha and Poseidon. The fact that people see it or have viewed it as more than just the matter that it is comprised of makes it an interesting part of history that people will study. It (the "cross") belongs in a museum just as every other inspired art does. What would make this unconstitutional is if no other religious/nonreligious symbols were allowed, which is NOT the case.
Because in reality it's just two steel beams, but to people it is more. Crosses are everywhere but the reason people saw that one and found it special was (well obviously due to Christianity but also) because of the tragic events of 9/11. Since then alterations have been made and now it's a part of history. In sum, it has emotional/symbolic value and the removal, alterations, and preservation were inspired by the events of 9/11 ("inspired art"). Is that an accurate description?
I see your point, but as you say, crosses are everywhere--they occur anytime you have perpendicular lines in which the bottom segment of the vertical line is longer than the other segments. Its appearance in the rubble was coincidental, which is why I resisted the word "inspired."
Now, I've no doubt that it's INSPIRATIONAL to many people.
I see your point as well. The reason I used the word "inspired" was merely because it was cut to perfection and drawing/etchings (inspired by the surrounding events) were added, akin to taking a whale bone (naturally occurring) and etching pictures of the hunt onto it. It really just acts as a canvas with a symbolic shape. If nothing was done to it, it could hardly be called "art" because art is (by definition) intentional. Although, religious folk might say it was God's intention.
@twaallen32 This is a very respectful exchange, so I'll respond in like kind- some of us atheists feel that if God were real, he might have prevented the tragedy, rather than leaving a hunk of art in the garbage. It hurts me very deeply to know we STILL have to live in a world where people kill each other over fictitious beliefs. It frightens me more than a little to realise that I might one day DIE over someone else's fictitious beliefs! No, I really DON'T want a monument to religion THERE!
I can respect that you have a right to you own wants and an expression of them. I just see it as more of legal issue with a possibility of setting precedents. Most art has religious symbolism (I know in this case it is extremely blatant). Atheists tend to not have material representations of their lack of religion. What follows is that a lot of American museums are going to have more "religious" art than atheistic art even though this is a secular country. They aren't anti-atheist.
@twaallen32 Haha, how could you have "atheistic art"? How can you in good conscience call this "art" and not a holy religious artifact? What if there really IS a God, didn't you read the 10 Commandments? Lying is a mortal sin.
They're your rules, if you're not going to follow them, then I owe you no respect. Is this or is it not a holy object to believers? Stop lying.
I don't mean to disappoint, but I am, myself, an atheist. And you're right, "atheistic art" does sound absurd, but what would we call the pictures of the great FSM or Raptor Jesus? Religious artifacts are art. Stop by the Met sometime or some other prominent art museum and see for yourself. It is a holy object to believers as much as a statue of Poseidon is a holy object to ancient Greeks. I'm not seeing your point.
@twaallen32 Okay, let's try again. This is NOT just a museum, but a memorial for the victims of a horrible tragedy. If it is paid for by our government, then it must be a memorial for ALL the fallen victims and their families, not JUST the xian ones! Is that clearer? Our government CANNOT LEGALLY show preference to just christians, whether they are in the majority or not, whether they are happy or not- even whether or not I look like an ass to support FOLLOWING THE LAW.
But they aren't showing preference. How would you like the atheists affected to be represented? Submit it to the museum. If they reject it on the basis that it's atheistic, then there's a violation.
That's like expecting every business to have white, black, Asian, etc. employees. What if no black/white/Asian workers applied for a job at that institution? Is the business then racist?
@twaallen32 And the FSM and invisible pink unicorn are parodies, not art. Gimme a break, this cross is NOT being place for its aesthetic beauty!! This is what I mean by dishonesty. It's being placed as a hole relic, and everyone knows it. Fcuk.
Disbar that dimwit.
drgoldteef 3 days ago
It was both the monotheistic god delusion and a bronze age book of fairy tales that brought the towers down in the first place! All theists are retarded!
scotttebben 2 weeks ago in playlist David Silverman
This has been flagged as spam show
Religious freedom is the protected rights of both organized superstition and its devout followers to force their bronze age morals, rules and laws upon all of society for their selfish desires, prejudices and the countless personal interpretations of what they believe their God would demand of them if he existed.
scotttebben 2 weeks ago in playlist David Silverman
I'd vote to have Potato Chip installed It is more symbolic of the event and controversial.
"if you are offend you can turn-away" translation :"if you don't like it *&^%$# off!"
EmmittBrownBTTF1 2 weeks ago in playlist David Silverman
I think the atheist should put a big A next to the fucking cross ,fuck religion fuck Jesus amen.
popatapataioo 2 weeks ago
They could have created a big A for ATHEISTS! Lying ass lawyer!
Pantera4LifeXTX 3 weeks ago
@lzf15 Theres a whole bunch of people who ARENT Christians that don't agree with abortion.
tnmusicman1 3 weeks ago
@Inclousid And what happens at these "witch hunts"?
tnmusicman1 3 weeks ago
@sonykroket Youre about an idiot!
tnmusicman1 3 weeks ago
Claiming damages,huh? Maybe Silverman has an agenda other than atheism.
tnmusicman1 3 weeks ago
I beams lol
Somai82 1 month ago
There were muslim victims of 9/11 also. I would just love to see the look on the Christian faces if there were an equal sized Muslim symbol right next to that stupid cross. Religion caused this event, and using any religious symbol at the memorial is a big fuck you to everyone.
cvanunen 1 month ago
wow, thats gotta be awkward. arguing so close within each others personal bubble of space.
trashbash2001 1 month ago
Pathetic attempt at arguing that it's not an exclusive religious symbol. That punk should be ashamed that he would be so dishonest in his heart in an attempt to have his religion be most important.
MrOttopants 1 month ago
Brett FAIL!
arkboy3 1 month ago
I´m not a christian, but I don´t get the argument. When you´re atheist, why should you care about religious symbols being displayed. And about the equality thing, what is a symbol of atheism? What does he want to display there and more importantly why?
TommyPachac 2 months ago
@TommyPachac
He doesn't want to display anything. If there is a seperation of church and state, then there should be no religious icons displayed in public ground.
leftovers0 2 months ago
@TommyPachac "When you´re atheist, why should you care about religious symbols being displayed."
Basically, religious organizations who want to use government property as a tool to promote their superstition is asking everyone else to pay for their advertising. That's just not ok. Not only because it's unconstitutional, but also because you are asking us to do something that is literally incomprehensible to us. We just can't respect it, because you have no evidence for your claims.
Gnomefro 1 month ago
@TommyPachac Ultimately, that is the reason why there is a separation of church and state and why the supreme court have their Lemon test for laws having a secular purpose. Secular purposes are comprehensible to everyone, even if we don't agree with them, and is consequently enforceable in a democracy. Collective projects or laws based on the premise that some superstitious idea is true is just not the kind of thing we can do together.
Gnomefro 1 month ago
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jacobcake 2 months ago
I think the rubblepile after the collapse of the WTC looked more like the flying spaghetti monster
;-)
sonykroket 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos 16
Who the hell wants to be part of a group that has a dead guy nailed to a cross as a symbol?
Or worship a piece of meteorite?
WTF is wrong with these dorkies
sonykroket 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
I think it's just bad taste to have the cross there, considering that religion was the reason that all of those people died. You would think that religion would be the last thing you would want represented there. Then again, the religios aren't known for their logic.
john5899 2 months ago
I seriously think the guy on the left doesn't get the point that David is trying to make. David doesn't mind that the cross is there as long as atheists get their own symbol of rememberence.
TheHolydunk 3 months ago 3
Make a private place with private donations to go see the cross. Republicans want to make everything private so make this private as well and the constitution will be unharmed. There were all kinds of people with different religions killed in 9/11 so to single out christians as being more harmed is a bad idea.
baxtar2012 3 months ago
a symbol of hope for what?
It was a fucking torture instrumen tin Roman era
psofic2 3 months ago
You could find a layer to say that lighting your hand on fire and fist fucking a goat has constitutional merit. They are a dime a dozen and are swine when parade so flagrantly around the wrong side of an argument.
Freedom of religion - government will specify no religious denomination. This is why the atheist is right.
Form now on when arguing constitutional matters on TV, atheists should carry a copy of the bill of rights with them so they can hit neocons over the head with it.
Xwowplaya 3 months ago
The only way I can imagine two cross beams (out of thousands that made up the building) as history is that apparently the deaths of Christians are more important than everyone else's.
darkrhenlitruu 3 months ago
"This was not a man made cross".....who does he think made the building?
MMIGOR 3 months ago
What kind of sick bastard takes comfort in twisted pieces of metal at ground zero? Also, this is solid evidence that you don't have to have two brain cells to rub together to become a lawyer.
RhymesWithPorridge 3 months ago
What kind of sick bastard takes comfort in twisted pieces of metal at ground zero??
RhymesWithPorridge 3 months ago
David got homeboy SWEATIN @ 4:24 HAHAHA. Shows homeboy is insecure
seanturpin01 3 months ago
I'm sure some Muslims died in 9/11. They should put some Islamic symbols in that museum as well.
CanadianNihilist 3 months ago
Do the christians not recognise that the Cross is a symbol of torture - do they think that if (improbably) Jesus came back he would want to see a CROSS.
dutchinforres 3 months ago
Based on all the WTC debris and rubble now sitting at the bottom of the ocean, and the manner in which it was collected, hauled away and disposed of; who knows how many other "historical" religious symbols there were in there.
PirateFish1 3 months ago
Wow, he looks like him, he sounds like him; the whole time that ACLJ lawyer was talking all I could see was VenomFangX.
PirateFish1 3 months ago
Comment removed
deviantbladeslinger 3 months ago
It's a museum, I don't mind religious symbols of any type being in a museum providing it is relevant. Religions whether you like it or not are part of history.
deviantbladeslinger 3 months ago
can we not just turn the cross upside down.the christians get there way and the atheists can laugh at this.
kram83au 3 months ago
That cross shaped metal piece didn't prevent anyone from dying nor their god that helped STOP the plane from crashing into the buildings.
What are they believing in?
Nostalgicvideos 3 months ago 17
If they had found a pentagram in the rubble....
Prelude610 3 months ago
I don't think this is an equal rights matter. It's a matter of the separation of church and state.
avielMenter 3 months ago
I saw a swastika in my latte today. This is 100% proof that god wants us to be Nazis.
Gunner3210 3 months ago
everyone, and atheists shut up
Crosses are SO complex and so hard to make "naturally"
obviously god made the metal form, even though the entire building was made of crosses and it just happened to form that way as easily as it did and even though it was so deformed that you'd have such an imagination to make a simple object doesn't disprove god I HATE YOU BIBLE DOES GOD AND BIBLE DERP HERPIN FUCK
KyuubiNaruto1337XD 3 months ago
To say "he/she is entitled to his/her position, but..." is such an arrogant and intellectually dishonest way of arguing. Oh, aren't you merciful. What is actually being said is that the other people are entitled to essentially being wrong, but I am right - just cause. Instead of measuring the different positions legitimacy up against each other, it is basically just being asserted that one position is correct - and thats that. Might as well just say "nuh-huh", as thats how much sense being made.
jaxeedcom 3 months ago
I disagree with Silverman on this, while the Cross maybe a religious symbol it's going into a museum to be on display. Many museums across the world and in the United States display religious artifacts in them, I don't see why this should be an exception. There is such a thing as taking something too far, I definitely do not see this as an endorsement of religion but a part of the history of the WTC Terrorist Attack.
LoLChubbs 3 months ago
@LoLChubbs yes, they display ARTIFACTS, not an irrelevant cross because of the way the building collapsed
KyuubiNaruto1337XD 3 months ago
5:30 The crossbeams were not man-made...what an idiot!
weberbeat 3 months ago
I love the way Dave just stares at his debate competition while they're talking
osheae22 3 months ago
the last 25 seconds was funny
Evan2718281828 3 months ago
David just looks at this guy like "I hear you talking, but there is no conscious brain activity going on..."
daveyg07 3 months ago
"I am speaking as an attorney ..." and therefore I can make up anything I like as long as it sounds like I know what I am talking about ... which I don't.
muzvh1 3 months ago
Only a religious moron would want the symbol of a torture/execution device, found in the rubble of the greatest terror attack, a symbol of hope.
luisdez81 3 months ago 5
Thousands of people died in a senseless and pointless terrorist attack that achieved nothing for anybody in the world, how on Earth did a metal cross bring anybody comfort from that?
pezzamange 3 months ago 4
How is a crossbeam history?
Christians, your god is pathetic if this is his symbol that he cares for you. If he cared for you, he would have STOPPED THE FUCKING PLANES.
Your miracle is stupid, your sense of wonder is misplaced, and you are offensive to the rest of us with your ignorance.
AtheistExplains 3 months ago 64
@AtheistExplains
What a hateful cunt you are. I happen to be an atheist, but to call religious people offensive because they believe in God is just fucking ignorant. Do you really find a cross offensive? or are you just first year college puke who just discovered atheism so you feel the need to argue with religious people on everything?
tedatlas 3 months ago
@tedatlas
You fail at YouTube comments.
If you are going to say that I'm a cunt for calling Christians offensive because of their ignorance, than what does that make you, who called me offensive because I'm ignorant?
Meanwhile, yes, an instrument of torture and death is offensive, especially when I'm being told that I have to respect and tolerate it. Christian doctrine would have it's followers call you and me the antichrist. There is plenty to be offended about.
AtheistExplains 3 months ago
@AtheistExplains
An instrument of torture and death? how many Christians do you know who are murderers? You're offended by their religion which you call stupid, then you get offended because they call you the antichrist. Two wrongs don't make a right. You have a lot of hate in your heart and I'd say it's misguided. Just like the atheist in this video, you need to learn how to pick your battles. Fight religious people when it matters, not over a stupid cross in a museum.
tedatlas 3 months ago
@tedatlas
I'm sorry, is this the same person that called me a cunt just a little while ago? Is this now the person telling me that I have a lot of hatred in my heart?
Do you know what a hypocrite is? Because you've proved yourself one twice in as many comments.
You are far too stupid to have a conversation with me.
AtheistExplains 3 months ago
@AtheistExplains
I'm just as much of a hypocrite as you, and I admit that. And you are a hateful cunt. I stand by my words. Why don't you go ahead and answer my questions, asshole. Or better yet, take my advice. No intelligent individual would be offended by a religious symbol in a museum. You and atheists like you are completely out of touch and have no idea who the real enemies are... they sure as shit aren't some dopey Christians who want a cross in a museum.
tedatlas 3 months ago
@AtheistExplains
And keep picking fights with the safe religious people, by the way. The ones you know won't break down your door and lop off your head. I don't see many outspoken atheists go after Muslims except maybe Bill Maher, Hitchens, and Dawkins. The rest are cowards just like you.
tedatlas 3 months ago
@tedatlas you don't see many outspoken atheist going after islam? then maybe you shouldn't search for specific christian inspired videos you idiot.
goreziad 3 months ago
@goreziad
I didn't search this video out, it was favorited by somebody I'm subscribed to. It's funny to me how people don't acknowledge the double standard that exists in the atheist community. The ferocity of the attacks on Christians is so much worse than anything you see on videos pertaining to Muslims. Shooting fish in a barrel must be so much fun.
tedatlas 3 months ago
@tedatlas "safe religious people"
Let's ask Dr. Tiller how safe he was around christians. Let's ask the 92 children how safe they were around Anders Breivik.
fdasherv 3 months ago
@fdasherv
It takes a few minutes of research to find out that Anders Breivik wasn't even a religious individual. He murdered those people because of the multiculturalism that has been wreaking havoc on western European countries for decades now. But go ahead and think he did it for purely religious reasons.
Until there are Christian terrorist cells around the world looking to kill innocent people, I think we can all safely assume that islam is the problem as far as religion is concerned.
tedatlas 3 months ago
@tedatlas
There are many Christian terrorist cells around the world. Also, if you're going to point at Islam as being a "bad" religion, then you should realize that Islam and Christianity and very similar in nature- the only difference lies in who each religion considers its prophet.
lzf15 3 months ago
@lzf15
Name some of those christian terrorist cells. Know of a Christian equivalent to Al-Qaeda?
And I do agree that the religions are similar in nature.. because they're both Abrahamic and monotheistic. The main difference is in the followers. There just aren't that many Christians who follow the bible as Muslims do with the Quran.
tedatlas 3 months ago
@tedatlas
Hutaree is a recent one, but if you're not willing to do the research yourself, I'm not going to do it for you. There are probably are terrorist cells equivalent to Al-Qaeda, and just because we don't know about them, doesn't mean they don't exist.
lzf15 3 months ago
@lzf15
Hutaree? you're right, i had to look them up. A group with about ten members, how dangerous. Remind me, how many acts of terrorism did hutaree commit? any suicide bombings? nope.. because western governments don't support actions like that. And lol at you saying that there are "probably" Christian terrorist cells out there that we don't know about. The whole purpose of a terrorist cell is to invoke fear through actions, then take responsibility for those actions in the name of the cause.
tedatlas 3 months ago
@tedatlas
"Pssh, ten members haha"
You have a naive understanding of what violent and determined people can do in groups. And just because there are no suicide bombings, means they aren't terrorists? Then I guess blowing up abortion clinics doesn't count because they aren't suicide bombers. Of course there are "probably" cells we don't know about. We can't know of every terrorist cell that exists. You'd be amazed at how much domestic Christian terrorism there is.
lzf15 3 months ago
@tedatlas Perhaps you're unaware of the modern day Christian Witch hunts currently taking place in Africa, or that gays are murdered on mass there because the bible says they're sinners. Or that not even 60 years ago, blacks were lynched in America by Christians, using the bible as their justification. Islam does not have the monopoly on religious attrocities, even in this day and age.
Inclousid 3 months ago
@AtheistExplains how is a cross offensive? if u dont believe in it than it shouldnt mean anything to you..religion is not going to end its based on faith..science and faith cannot not be debated, faith is the beleif in the unknown while science is what we have proven has humans..debating religion is a waste of time for atheist..what you call ignorance has helped millions get through a life not worth living it gives people "peace of mind" and to attack that is offensive and a waste of your time
bobdacreepable 3 months ago
@bobdacreepable
You do realize that the cross is a symbol of torture and death, right? Putting it up in public display with public funds, as if its something I'm supposed to respect, is offensive. It'd be like public funds went to building a shrine, to the Oklahoma City building, it was consecrated by a voodoo witch doctor, and a large hangman's noose was prominently displayed.
AtheistExplains 3 months ago
@AtheistExplains youre not supposed to respect it youre supposed to ignore it the cross has no meaning to you, if you believe it stands for torture and death than you believe in the faith behind it
bobdacreepable 3 months ago
@bobdacreepable
Or I could simply understand the history of what crosses were used for. The legend of Jesus isn't the only person crucified on a cross. What it stands for remains the same, religion or no.
AtheistExplains 3 months ago
@AtheistExplains i understand and respect your opinion 100% but with your logic we would have to knock down alot more than a cross in nyc to please everyones personal beleifs...what about the people that lost their life on 9/11? they are exactly what the cross stands for, pointless murder, the cross is a perfect symbol for ground zero according to what you believe
bobdacreepable 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bobdacreepable "what the cross stands for, pointless murder,"
I agree 100%. The cross does stand for pointless murder.
RayvinWinters 3 months ago
Another Christian miracle, finding a cross in a rubble of CROSS-beams.
Praise the Almighty Space Daddy!
facepalm d'Or.
perfecto25 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
4:25 (Someone seems to be breaking out in a nervous sweat. Guess the comment about 'writing Jesus on the cross' would make anyone with a half-baked law degree come up with a lie in front of national television.)
Water4Jeremiah 3 months ago
As a non-believer, I have to say I completely disagree with David Silverman here. And that has nothing to do with the fact I find him to be a complete twat.
Webofscience 3 months ago
faggot ass xtains ruining my life
whitelighter27club 3 months ago
lol. david silverman got owned here. :P
TomValedro 3 months ago
@Philosophydebater The US and its 'principles' fucking hell things must have improved in the US!
Gr33kElite 3 months ago
Woah, woah, woah, what the hell. I'm sorry but the Christians get their cross they found but AS I RECALL, there was a heap of wires and melted steel that looked like the one and only flying spaghetti monster and it is unconstitutional for them not to hang our noodely father up as well.
Pasta be upon him, Ramen.
DarkBunnyLord 3 months ago 50
@DarkBunnyLord I love ramen!
KyuubiDragon4 3 months ago
@DarkBunnyLord That was awesome, well said.
porrsmurfen 3 months ago
@DarkBunnyLord lol brilliant
Xwowplaya 3 months ago
i would be offended if i saw this in a museum about a national tragedy. no matter what the justification is.
agoule01 3 months ago
Does athiesm have a symbol in the deaths of more than a thousand of people... NO! Proven fact that those that join athiesm are mentally stupid, it is the truth but funny.
Gr33kElite 3 months ago
@Gr33kElite Isnt the cross a symbol of a torture device used to kill the christian god incarnate?
wowamonn 3 months ago
@wowamonn The cross has its value to many Christians however you should remember that the majority of the people that died in the 9/11 were Christians and most of the population in the US are Christians. Therefore no one wins this battle. It's all about salvation my friend and what these dumb athiest are doing is disrespectful to the dead! I won't argue with you over anything because you already have an answer so it is a waste of time!
Gr33kElite 3 months ago
@Gr33kElite Atheists are one of the best educated.I don't know any Atheist below Bachelor and You say these dumb atheists? 99% of scientists are Atheists-You know those guys who created ways that feed 35% of the world, that develop medicine..These dumb atheists like You called them.
I wonder what You contribute to society?I guess nothing significant if You were educated You wouldn't say - these dumb atheists
Watch it all
/watch?v=ZTHyVWCoJdg&list=PL2F361002204DCF87&index=126&feature=plpp_video
Overkillerr 3 months ago
@Overkillerr I assure you that there are far more money dumb atheist than ones with a fucking brain. Let's not go too far when it comes to those that have contributed to society. You don't know me and it is better than that. One day I will come back to you and prove something however probably by then it would be too late. Atheism within a society creates individualism of which this creates greediness you end up putting money first than life! This has been proven if u have done ur research.
Gr33kElite 3 months ago
@Gr33kElite I'm an Atheist and never put money first. This always get's me in trouble with You good believers - You just don't understand that someone doesn't do things for money. You don't understand cause You only help others to go to heaven or to build a bigger Church. You always give away Bibles- that's marketing. Atheists don't go and help to convert others like You in Africa.
So stop saying Your BS O.K.
Churches collect money and build another church to collect -what % goes for charity?
Overkillerr 3 months ago
@Overkillerr Good luck to you if you are atheist I don't really give a shit. I respect your opinion and i deserve the same respect back.Fristly,I don't except the church system of collecting money from individualism.Secondly, It is not BS but purely factual.Thirdly,once you do your research for 3 years reading different resports of individuals and media coverages it will result to one answer individualism that is the term of atheism you might be the smallest percentage that don't think like that
Gr33kElite 3 months ago
@Gr33kElite " Therefore no one wins this battle. It's all about salvation my friend and what these dumb athiest are doing is disrespectful to the dead! "
Unfortunalty the US constitution forbids the Govenment from supporting any religous position including installing a percieved religous symbol with tax payers money. So evan though most of folks who died in 911 were of the christian faith. It is against the law for the US Government to install this supposed religous symbol.
wowamonn 3 months ago
@wowamonn Since when has the US respected their constitution or even policies? Well... I don't know where have you been living all these years but "never"!!
Gr33kElite 3 months ago
@Gr33kElite That is why some citizens of the US have to kindly remind the Govenment what is written in the Constitution every once and a while.
wowamonn 3 months ago
@wowamonn There are more important things to worry abouth that affect eevryone and not one secotr in society today! That is where you, the citizens, should be getting yourselves involves in!
Gr33kElite 3 months ago
@Gr33kElite Seperation of Church and State is my primary focus. Along with other Atheists and Agnostics. My fellow citizens can believe in thier god and pray and go to church and all that fuzzy stuff. As long as they keep it to themselves.
wowamonn 3 months ago
@wowamonn Now I agree with you on that.
Gr33kElite 3 months ago
I'm fine with them putting a cross up... as long as they put every other religious symbol up too.
happyhappy85 3 months ago
I'm not sure what to think of this. From an rather layman's perspective I think the atheists are in the wrong. I don't care much for Christianity or any other theistic religion but the cross-shaped beams are merely that.. beams that happen to be T/cross-shaped which are just conventional structures which there were dozens of spread over the whole of ground zero. If people project a christian cross on it, so be it. To me it's just cross-shaped beams.
Swamoez0rs 3 months ago
@Swamoez0rs Ask anyone why they're putting up a cross shaped beam though instead of a slab of brick, wiring, or litterally any other piece of rubble and the answer is?
That's the problem, the ONLY reason they're putting it up is because they want it to represent a cross, ie religious promotion, that is indeed unconstitutional. If they had said "oh we're just putting rubble up to remember and then someone looked at the piece and said "that looks like a cross" that'd be different.
DarkBunnyLord 3 months ago
@DarkBunnyLord But aren't you free to interpret it exactly how you like? If the majority of people erected it in Christian euphoria thenn that's fine. Others can interpret it the way they like and no one can tell them how they should or shouldn't look upon it.
Swamoez0rs 3 months ago
@Swamoez0rs Again if it had been put up "just" as wreckage then that's fine, but it hasn't. It was wreckage taken from the sight, reformed into a cross, and put up specifically for Christians. It's like if they built a church and said "you can just interpret it as a mcdonalds that doesn't serve food".
The clearly stated intent is the issue at hand.
DarkBunnyLord 3 months ago
@DarkBunnyLord You make a good point. If taking in consideration that these beams have been indeed assembled (as they appear to have) into its current shape with that intention I can understand why one would protest. I'm still a bit passive on this one but I see your point.
Swamoez0rs 3 months ago
@Swamoez0rs They have (in fact the commenter mentions this in the post). The beams where originally shorter on the cross section, diagonal, bent, and twisted with several melted section. They've been repositioned to look more cross like and the melting / warping straightened out.
DarkBunnyLord 3 months ago
@DarkBunnyLord PS: But don't get me wrong. I don't feel too happy about it and find it somewhat inconsiderate towards those who do not share Christian beliefs and/or have grown tired of the Christian coating and even invading an area as loaded with emotion as ground zero. But I do feel like one has to pick his/her battles and wonder if this conflict is right to be held over the backs of those still grieving.
Swamoez0rs 3 months ago
This video seems so over-edited it's insane.
Gyohdon 3 months ago
wow that Christian lawyer is such an idiot
Edbrad 3 months ago 4
I didn't really agree with AA on this issue, as long as the cross was impartially explained (that it was seen as a source of hope with the Christian responders), it should be included in the museum. That said, Silverman demolishes this little Pat Robertson toady so thoroughly that it's beautiful.
Sabohaque 3 months ago
I think if the cross is just part of the museum, like it's just one of many exhibits, then it should be fine. Now, if they were putting it in front of the museum, that suggests that the cross represents the entire museum, or the entire memorial, which I would have a problem with. But as long as that's not the case, it is true that it is part of the history of the event, so it deserves to have a place in the museum, even if the history is dumb.
LanceDirk 4 months ago
Athiests can not remove the Cross of Salvation
HungKiet 5 months ago
down goes the lawyer... down goes the lawyer
mathgeekpotter 5 months ago
Religion is poison. Silverman is a great man.
bary1234 5 months ago 4
" It's NOT man made cross..."
?
MrJurekGG 5 months ago
David is attempting to make eye contact through this entire interview. Some people actually care about what the person sitting next to them is saying.
WickeDFate4 5 months ago
Christians are like a virus, they are everywhere and in everything. In the last 10 years, they have managed to drop the nation's IQ by 30 points, turning us into a festival of ignorance. It is about time to regulate Churches and their rights. It is also time to make them pay taxes. They are nothing but a criminal enterprise.
saburius 5 months ago 3
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saburius 5 months ago
I'm confused, atheists are upset because there isn't equal representation... what symbol do atheists have? Nothingness? Air? Both are present in that museum. There's your equal representation. I don't care if you're a believer, a non believer, a scientologist or a starseed; let people find hope in whatever they find hope in. For god sakes David is such an ignorant prick.
whiteflash707 5 months ago
@whiteflash707 You call him ignorant? I call you a moron for belliving in a wizard who break countless laws of nature.
gumme1234 5 months ago
@gumme1234 You're a moron for assuming that I'm a believer. I'm just a rational loving human being. David acts like he can tell you for a fact there's no divinity; yet scientists can't even explain how particles gain mass and turn into matter. Atheists make as many assumptions as believers. You either believe, or you don't. It really doesn't matter as long as you're a good person. And don't try and act like all atheists are saints, and all believers are idiots and bad.
whiteflash707 5 months ago
@whiteflash707
Idk why you posted this 5 TIMES, but saying "I don't know how particles have mass or how/why the universe began," is NOT making any assumptions. It's when a person says, "God did it," that assumptions are made. But beliefs and their justifications aren't really the issue here. The issue here is that people think that something illegal is happening here. I disagree and tend to view it like a business that doesn't have any black employees: doesn't automatically equal racism.
twaallen32 5 months ago
@gumme1234 You're a moron for assuming that I'm a believer. I'm just a rational loving human being. David acts like he can tell you for a fact there's no divinity; yet scientists can't even explain how particles gain mass and turn into matter. Atheists make as many assumptions as believers. You either believe, or you don't. It really doesn't matter as long as you're a good person. And don't try and act like all atheists are saints, and all believers are idiots and bad.
whiteflash707 5 months ago
@gumme1234 You're a moron for assuming that I'm a believer. I'm just a rational loving human being. David acts like he can tell you for a fact there's no divinity; yet scientists can't even explain how particles gain mass and turn into matter. Atheists make as many assumptions as believers. You either believe, or you don't. It really doesn't matter as long as you're a good person. And don't try and act like all atheists are saints, and all believers are idiots and bad.
whiteflash707 5 months ago
@SuperSkepticman
Regardless of whether it is unconstitutional the ACLU Lawyer thinks the majority has the right to exclude others they deem different. He simply dressed it up in fancy language to hide the core of his argument.
Santo3x7 5 months ago
Let them put the dumb thing up. "Hey look at this miraculous cross left in the burning wreckage where thousands of people had just died, many of them christians, what a beautiful god that would let such a tragedy happen just to allow an inspirational cross to be left behind!"
It's just like the fucking rainbow, a sign of gods love and promise not to AGAIN slaughter billions of people/animals. Xians are mentally ill.
savageecho 5 months ago
I think it's retarded to be honest. There were thousands of metal crossbeams like that in the wreckage but human christians find one thats kinda standing upright and it becomes a symbol. I can look around my room and find over ten structural crossbeams that means nothing. My neighborhood gets blown to bits though, and one of my crossbeams is standing upright in the rubble...maybe even covered in bits of my atheist self...It stands a fair chance of becoming a religious symbol.
twistmental79 5 months ago
As for being "part of the history of the event", so is every single other piece of rubble from the towers. Why not put up a piece of twisted steel that doesn't symbolize anything? Because then it wouldn't symbolize Christianity.
derekxnl 5 months ago
Remember that these same people who want the cross put up at the memorial protested Park 51 (the community center that contained a Mosque) from being built a block away from the WTC site for the sole reason that it contained a Mosque.
derekxnl 5 months ago 12
only people as brainwashed as your average Christian could find anything "comforting" in a Roman torture device.
hardinmichael1981 5 months ago 11
@DidYouJustMakeThatUp Thanks, nobody gets my jokes.
madamezora7 5 months ago
I think another real problem with this is the rather dubious act of associating a large christian element with 9-11....you know...because it would be smart to at least not validate the whole holly war thing with the Jihadists.
bb1televator 5 months ago
Would they be arguing to include the Cross of David if one was found in the rubble? How about the Crescent Moon of Islam? Or the symbol of Scientology? Would they be arguing it was “part of the history of the site”?
Somehow I don’t think they would.
askegg 5 months ago
Darn Christian, always trying to seek one in. This time, under the symbol of "hope". We see through it. Hope the rest of the world does too.
pannysat 5 months ago
xtians are getting too much shit passed under the geis of it being of historical value. We obviously need a better legal argument against historicity.
y0nd3r 5 months ago
Comment removed
y0nd3r 5 months ago
@y0nd3r For example, an x made of I-beams would have been equally as easy to find and would have had as much historicity, but an X would not have meant anything to xtians.
y0nd3r 5 months ago
All or no symbols.
benaberry 5 months ago
Remember those pictures where people claimed to see Satan's face in the smoke? I think the Satanists should try to get that picture into the museum, and put it right next to the cross.
MMAharaja 5 months ago 18
It was religion that caused the tragedy in the first place, no religion has a place in marking it! And especially not with a fabricated symbol that was 'corrected' to become more religious.
TMTours 5 months ago 5
I'm a atheist.. But I think some battles are better of left not contested, I think this is one of them... This u just bad publicity for atheist...
marine0816 5 months ago
@marine0816 - Fuck that. If you just give up on equality because of a 'PR issue', then you shouldn't be given that equality. Fight, or be trampled on. Look at some of the biggest equal rights fights in history and you will see how people crossed controversial lines, in order to be given the same rights as everybody else.
FixedNewsChannel 5 months ago
In my view David Silverman is interrupting and plumply as well as very charismatic and shrewd, i think many fundamentalists hate him to the death, in every stance Silverman improves the atheist visibility in the way, that "every PR is good PR". But as he advertised for reason rally i was embarressed, sorry, that's not a place for advertisement.
MardasMan 5 months ago
I find weird that Silverman is the president of Atheists in U.S.
He (sorry) is not good enough in debating, Matt Dillahunty would be a better one.
That said, fuck the cross.
ChristianIce 5 months ago
Haha, way to slap that little baby around! What a little turd to think he has the ability to speak for the entirety of the population, AND the entirety of the law! Haha, I almost died laughing at watching him scramble to keep up.
The "cross" is really a plus sign, left for us by that great God of Everything- Mathematicus! Oh my Gawd, I'm saved!!
madamezora7 5 months ago
The cross is there to remind all the non-Christians families of victims that their loved ones are burning in hell.
itsasin1969 5 months ago 4
@itsasin1969 More accurately, it's there to let us know how our Christian "brothers and sisters" really feel about us- we're only worthy of burning in eternal flames. Nice, and very "humble" of you, really.
madamezora7 5 months ago
I like that Jew who fights the followers of that other Jew.
sKepptiksowat 5 months ago
The saddest part for atheists and e everyone, when they are victims of religion in the form of a radical violent event that caused 911
phantomcreamer 5 months ago
david silverman, all american bad ass
mboundtogether 5 months ago 4
I have a secular purpose when visiting museums to see statues of Buddha and Poseidon. The fact that people see it or have viewed it as more than just the matter that it is comprised of makes it an interesting part of history that people will study. It (the "cross") belongs in a museum just as every other inspired art does. What would make this unconstitutional is if no other religious/nonreligious symbols were allowed, which is NOT the case.
twaallen32 5 months ago
@twaallen32
The cross is "inspired art"? How so?
ClumsyRoot 5 months ago
@ClumsyRoot
Because in reality it's just two steel beams, but to people it is more. Crosses are everywhere but the reason people saw that one and found it special was (well obviously due to Christianity but also) because of the tragic events of 9/11. Since then alterations have been made and now it's a part of history. In sum, it has emotional/symbolic value and the removal, alterations, and preservation were inspired by the events of 9/11 ("inspired art"). Is that an accurate description?
twaallen32 5 months ago
@twaallen32
I see your point, but as you say, crosses are everywhere--they occur anytime you have perpendicular lines in which the bottom segment of the vertical line is longer than the other segments. Its appearance in the rubble was coincidental, which is why I resisted the word "inspired."
Now, I've no doubt that it's INSPIRATIONAL to many people.
ClumsyRoot 5 months ago
@ClumsyRoot
I see your point as well. The reason I used the word "inspired" was merely because it was cut to perfection and drawing/etchings (inspired by the surrounding events) were added, akin to taking a whale bone (naturally occurring) and etching pictures of the hunt onto it. It really just acts as a canvas with a symbolic shape. If nothing was done to it, it could hardly be called "art" because art is (by definition) intentional. Although, religious folk might say it was God's intention.
twaallen32 5 months ago
@twaallen32 This is a very respectful exchange, so I'll respond in like kind- some of us atheists feel that if God were real, he might have prevented the tragedy, rather than leaving a hunk of art in the garbage. It hurts me very deeply to know we STILL have to live in a world where people kill each other over fictitious beliefs. It frightens me more than a little to realise that I might one day DIE over someone else's fictitious beliefs! No, I really DON'T want a monument to religion THERE!
madamezora7 5 months ago
@madamezora7
I can respect that you have a right to you own wants and an expression of them. I just see it as more of legal issue with a possibility of setting precedents. Most art has religious symbolism (I know in this case it is extremely blatant). Atheists tend to not have material representations of their lack of religion. What follows is that a lot of American museums are going to have more "religious" art than atheistic art even though this is a secular country. They aren't anti-atheist.
twaallen32 5 months ago
@twaallen32 Haha, how could you have "atheistic art"? How can you in good conscience call this "art" and not a holy religious artifact? What if there really IS a God, didn't you read the 10 Commandments? Lying is a mortal sin.
They're your rules, if you're not going to follow them, then I owe you no respect. Is this or is it not a holy object to believers? Stop lying.
madamezora7 5 months ago
@madamezora7
I don't mean to disappoint, but I am, myself, an atheist. And you're right, "atheistic art" does sound absurd, but what would we call the pictures of the great FSM or Raptor Jesus? Religious artifacts are art. Stop by the Met sometime or some other prominent art museum and see for yourself. It is a holy object to believers as much as a statue of Poseidon is a holy object to ancient Greeks. I'm not seeing your point.
twaallen32 5 months ago
@twaallen32 Okay, let's try again. This is NOT just a museum, but a memorial for the victims of a horrible tragedy. If it is paid for by our government, then it must be a memorial for ALL the fallen victims and their families, not JUST the xian ones! Is that clearer? Our government CANNOT LEGALLY show preference to just christians, whether they are in the majority or not, whether they are happy or not- even whether or not I look like an ass to support FOLLOWING THE LAW.
madamezora7 5 months ago
@madamezora7
But they aren't showing preference. How would you like the atheists affected to be represented? Submit it to the museum. If they reject it on the basis that it's atheistic, then there's a violation.
That's like expecting every business to have white, black, Asian, etc. employees. What if no black/white/Asian workers applied for a job at that institution? Is the business then racist?
twaallen32 5 months ago
@twaallen32 And the FSM and invisible pink unicorn are parodies, not art. Gimme a break, this cross is NOT being place for its aesthetic beauty!! This is what I mean by dishonesty. It's being placed as a hole relic, and everyone knows it. Fcuk.
madamezora7 5 months ago
@madamezora7 Holy relic. Fuck. Shouldn't type when pissed, haha.
madamezora7 5 months ago