Pastor Bill Welsh of Refuge Speaks On The Gadfly Project

[jonathanrock7000]

WE LOVE YOU PASTOR BILL!! YOU'RE SUCH A GREAT PASTOR!!

[WilliamFrancisWelsh]

"Bobby" - Time will tell what was accomplished other than the US Embassy supporting the "underlying message" of Eddie's protest. many voices were raised for the voiceless. Keep praying and speaking up. BTW - what are you doing for them? No jab, I'm truly interested. I trust you're doing more than ManGoneNuts.

"TellTheTruth" - The rooms WERE paid for - Eddie is trying to pay for the hotel rooms but was told by the Police not to. Strange huh? Read more carefully. Grace & Peace

[bobbywitty08]

Paster Welch, thanks for responding this. Well, true, time will tell everything. However if saving lives is the ultimate aim this outrage is clearly counter-productive. What's more, although paying for the room and/or the graffiti damage does not justify the case, at least the government's let-it-go attitude proves that it's not that voiceless out there after all. Changes are already dawning. So why all these condescending views and demonising approach anyway? Plus, why is politics involved? GB.

[mangonut]

Poor baby. You must miss me to be so obsessed with my name. :)

Like I said, keep doin' what you're doin'. I completely support the inoculation of the Chinese against your hypocrisy. That'll extend to being against everything you stand for. Glad you're doing such an excellent job.

[bobbywitty08]

I can almost understand the excitement of hailing for someone who vandalised and got away with it. You praise his courage right? But that's about all. What did he achieve then? Disbelief, discomfort, disturbance, disgust, disapproval, even hatred from a good proportion of Chinese population, especially that this is what a Christian pastor is capable of? Now what greater cause is there, after he flamboyantly damaged God' name first? Pastor Welch, I think it's time you wake up to the fact now.

[tellthetruthabout]

who the hell you think you are!? paint in the hotel room and ran away but without paying the room services? He was a thief! the chinese people don't need your god! you thieves are stealing iraqi oil! you should stop killing the iraqi people and stop raping iraqi women first!

[bfernand98]

Well said Pastor Bill. We are praying for Eddie's safe return and will wait to see what our mighty God does in China. Thanks for standing on your principles too!

[bfernand98]

Well said Pastor Bill. Thanks for following your principles as well! We are praying for Eddie's safe return and will wait to see what our Powerful God does in China. . .

[TroyHinrichs]

This comment may be pointless, but it's going up anyway. Mango, please in a simple sentence or two, what do you find so despicable about this? Yes, gadfly committed a crime because speaking out against the persecution of the faithful is a crime. No, the gov't has not incarcerated ALL Christians (too much uproar), but that doesn't mean they haven't silenced any of them or that the practice is unusual. Take your head out of the sand. Thousands are harmed, vandalism in this case harms no one.

[mangonut]

The church's cultural superiority complex and hypocrisy of their actions.

Get a passport and live in China before trying to show off what you know about religious freedom there and pick up a history book or two while you're at it.

[mangonut]

If you knew about our culture, one of the quickest ways to spread Christianity is through popular celebrities. So, why didn't the Chinese gov't lock them up? Or at the very least stop them from advertising their faith?

Unfortunately, Troy, you only know either what the Western media wants you to believe OR testimonies of China's ex-pats who haven't been back to China in a couple of decades.

The USA has changed dramatically in the past 30 years. So has China.

[TroyHinrichs]

Mango, in all you've said, I do not see what it is you are specifically upset with. That occidentals are protesting in China? Sounds a little racist. That vandalism is used to draw attention to human rights violations? When you cannot make your point legally, making it illegally is the only option. Are you really more upset with destruction of property than with Communist oppression of peoples of faith through incarceration/execution? Your answer says a lot about you.

[mangonut]

It says a lot about you that you think it's ok to ignore the method and only focus on the message. "Do as I say, not as I do" as it were. Hypocrites to the extreme.

Your church's actions are completely backfiring in China.

You are so blind to your own methods. If the Chinese gov't was anti-religion / anti-Christian, they would have jailed all the prominent Chinese-Christian entertainers who reside in China. Again, it's a shame you don't know the real story but pretend you do.

[mangonut]

The question is, what point are you trying to make? I never decided to go to an Anglo gov't to foist my belief system onto it whereas your church is.

Truly. Now who's the racist?

[inthelight20]

For you to spread this to all of your "Chinese" friends to give Christianity a bad name, than you're only making matters worse. What you're doing is causing division. If you're so called Chinese Christian friends are indeed Christian, they would be against such things as well. It's one thing to disagree, but an entirely different thing to spread dissension. Let it go and move on.

[mangonut]

EXACTLY. Follow your own advise!

Stop foisting your beliefs that you think you know what's best for us onto us. Again, you don't know our culture. You don't even know the reason why there is no religious freedom in China. It has nothing to do with religion.

Again your willful ignorance of our culture is insulting.

[inthelight20]

Apples to Apples man. 9/11 is a different matter entirely. No one was hurt in his protest, not one life. About Bob Fu, he isn't merely one "data point," he personally advised president Bush a week before he left for Beijing. You don't get those priviledges unless you are an authority on the subject.

[mangonut]

I'm directly applying what you are saying.

You said to not look at the actions but the intent. I'm only applying it to other events such as 9/11.

[mangonut]

I'm still disgusted. However I'm passing this around to my Chinese friends to show them what justification of Christian vandalism looks like.

[inthelight20]

What does being an expert have to do with speaking up for those who are truly "voiceless" as they say? Hypothetically speaking, when someone is being beat on the roadside, do you have to be an expert on their situation? No, you step in on their behalf. Or maybe you don't, maybe you're the guy who walks on by, turns the other way. This is about basic human dignity my friend and that doesn't require an experts opinion. Since you made the point though, there were many so called "experts" involved.

[mangonut]

Of course you need to be aware of the culture. That policeman is going to loose face and beat the victim senseless once you have your back turned. That's how it is. Now you've done more harm than good.

You're obviously trying to change the subject on me and have tried to do so a few times. Since the drum that you beat is "listen to the message not the actions" I hear you say that we should do the same for 9/11.

[inthelight20]

Communism is responsible for the evils that are committed on the innocent people not Christianity. Even historically, early on in China's history, religions were welcomed and tolerated. When communism took seat, is when everything changed. So your argument that Christians will pay for his actions is all fluff my friend. BTW, Bill Welsh didn't start this org, he supports it because it's a noble cause, controversial? Yes, but necessary.

[mangonut]

What does communism have ANYTHING to do what I'm arguing? I'm arguing that your organization knows nothing about the culture or politics in China, however, you take action as if you are experts in our culture. That's an incredibly arrogant position.

[inthelight20]

In matters of the human rights abuses whether speaking about religion or politics in China, it has everything to do with it. You should know that you're wrong about the organization knowing nothing about politics in China. Edward Romero was personally advised by some of the biggest names in Human rights. Bob Fu to name one. This wasn't a one-off act of vandalism that was formed by disinformation or the lack of knowledge.

[mangonut]

Having one Chinese data point does not an expert make. Bob Fu is persecuted because of his actions in 1989. If he were to blink China would be on his tail. It doesn't have anything to do with him being Christian.

[mangonut]

And no, not fluff. if you don't know what I'm talking about, that speaks volumes on how little you know about Chinese culture. I hope you never try to help me. I'd be scared for my life.

[inthelight20]

Mangonut...you might have an opinion but you don't speak for those untold hundreds of thousands of people who's live's have been effected by the the unjust actions of the authorities of the PRC. I personally know Chinese people who's lives have been destroyed by their actions and they happen to welcome what Eddie has done on their "soil" because as it has been said time and again, it's not about the vandalism but rather, a message that needs to be told.

[mangonut]

Unfortunately, neither you nor Eddie nor Bill speak for the Chinese.

I assume you're old enough to know that there will ALWAYS be dissenters in a country. They may be happy with your intent. However, your actions do nothing but hurt them AND your God in the end.

If you say that it's not about the vandalism but the message, then why do it the way you did? You must think it was ok for the Middle Easterners to fly the planes into the Twin Towers, as it's their message not the vandalism that count

[WilliamFrancisWelsh]

Just a few Precedents for those who wonder at the legitimacy of this event:

1. Jesus in the temple tossing tables, loosing other people's animals & scattering their money

2. God graffitiing Nebuchadnezar's wall (a nation holding worshippers in bondage)

3. Israelite midwives bold lies to Pharaoh in order to save Jewish babies & God blessing them for that deception

4. Our own Boston Tea Party - Destroying other people's property to make a point.

Don't end your life wishing you'd done more. MOVE!

[mangonut]

I'm so glad you think you're up there with God or Jesus. That in itself speaks volumes.

[ipfreak]

another professional "preacher", so your god must be the same as that Eddie Romero, a hooligan?

[AD19840304]

Who do you think you are? What do you know? Fool, you no nothing, you see nothing, you are as blind as your GOD

[WilliamFrancisWelsh]

Thank you for your kind, cool-headed words. Very sweet.

[Keria90]

Great words please keep raising your voice despite the people who can;t see why we do this.

Rebekah

CCHB

[mangonut]

OMG, I can't believe how retarded this is. Are you all that arrogant?? You're treating the people of China as a 3rd world country. The patronization is embarrassing.

[WilliamFrancisWelsh]

Hey mango - How are you speaking up for the persecuted people of China? Might want to look up the word "patronization" in a good dictionary. It's what I am doing right now to you - not what the gadfly team is doing for those whose voices have been silenced. That would be better labeled self-sacrifice, lobbying, protesting. And interestingly enough, many Chinese people are voicing their gratitutde to pastor Eddie and the Exodus8one team. There you go. Does that help? Glad to assist you.

[mangonut]

Was it also your group who tried to dump 300+ bibles into China?

Your group's actions only show that you think you know what's best for "ethnic minorities" in the US, as if you understand the Asian culture and politics. If you truly understood it, your group would know that China doesn't give a flying about Christianity. It's an officially Atheist state. They're not tormenting "Christians" because "they are Christians."

[WilliamFrancisWelsh]

Actually the number is way up into the millions of Bibles now. Back in the late 1970's there was a miraculous distribution of 1,000,000 brought in in one night by a cooperation of Chinese Christians and foreigners. Close to 70% made it into the hands of VERY THANKFUL Chinese Christians, hungry for God's Word.

[mangonut]

I'm talking about recent events of the past week.

[mangonut]

If a Muslim does exactly what you're doing in the US what do you think the gov't and media reaction will be? Don't you think the Muslims would be persecuted to a greater extent than they are already?

[mangonut]

It is unfortunate that your group is barking up the wrong tree, as it is obvious that you've bought into the story hook line and sinker that religious oppression is rampant in China. It IS an oppression of some sort, btu not religious. Persecution of Christians are an offshoot of the true cause. Because you do not understand that, your project is doomed to failure.

[mangonut]

BTW, a handful of Chinese people thanking you does not count as "many." Our culture values respect. What you are doing is anything but.

Ethnocentric behavior, no matter how well-intentioned, will never be appreciated. Not in China, not in America. It's demeaning and patronizing.

Good luck. You will need it.

[WilliamFrancisWelsh]

Mango - You need to read a bit of history. SERIOUSLY. God's truth endures to all generations - all locations - all situations. Atheism has raped the nations of China - USSR - Cuba - Romania - Albania. The best thing that ever happened to China was the Gospel of Jesus Christ lived out sacrificially. Jesus forgives sins - restores lives - He can do the same for Mangonut too. What do you have against Jesus?

[mangonut]

Bill - You need to study the customs of other countries before you try to start up a "project" on their soil. SERIOUSLY.

My best friends are Chinese Christians. What you are doing is seriously embarrassing them.

[WilliamFrancisWelsh]

One of my recent friends is a young woman who spent 6 years in a chinese prison for editing an underground chinese newspaper. She was tortured for her faith. Imprisoned without due process and made Christmas lights for America. She is FULLY behind the project. Your friends would love to meet her. Perhaps she could help them to raise their voice for their brothers and sisters in Christ in China. Go deeper "man-goes-nuts". Grace & peace

[mangonut]

Oh... Poor thing. You can't argue with logic so you resort to 1st grade name-calling? Does someone need a hug?

Thanks for the laugh, though. I needed it. :D

Now that I see how ridiculously conceited your church is, I'm now hoping you send more people to China to do the same. It's the most sure-fire way of insulating would-be followers from your brand of Christianity. Keep up the good work! 加油!

[mangonut]

I don't doubt that you have a friend who went to prison. I do doubt your implication that she was sent because she was purely "editing" a religious paper. You said that she was doing something "underground." If that's the case, I'm not surprised that she went to prison. What was she doing "underground?" Staging a revolt?

There are too many "above ground" Christians that I question either your story or her motives. Obviously the Chinese gov't questioned it as well.

[mangonut]

Again, your organization's failure to understand, indeed, even willful ignorance of our culture and politics makes you responsible for all those innocent Christians living in China who will pay for your deeds.

[MmzLenz]

This is a great video. it fills my heart with joy to see people joining to raise their voice for those that are persecuted for their faith.

<3

[inthelight20]

Yeah, I agree, great video. It's good to see more people raising there voices for that "great nation full of precious people." Thanks Mr. Welsh!!

[Merga53]

Great video, Pastor Bill and I agree with your heartfelt sentiments. God bless you, Pastor Eddie. And I pray that our brothers and sisters in China will be free to worship in public soon.

Merrie