The Original Sin

[limiwa84]

Tried to give a long winded explanation, but that just isn't going to work. Had to remove them all. Bottom line: God did not cause us be born sinful. Adam and Eve, although physically perfect & immortal, made that choice on their own and doomed their offspring. To not have given them that choice would have been to create them as robots. We don't have the "choice" to be "perfect" now, but we do have to choice to worship God in truth. What choice are YOU making?

[nathanaelstacy1]

If God created humans in such a way that we would inherit sin from our parents (going all the way back to Adam), then how could you possibly say that God didn't cause us to be born sinful?

Is God not all-powerful? Did he have no choice in how He made us? Did he not decide that if Adam sinned, his descendants would inherit sinfulness? Was that a design flaw of which he wasn't aware until it was all over?

Then can't it be said that he forces us to sin?

[nathanaelstacy1]

So that sounds as if the God and Satan of the Bible quibble like third-graders. How could we ever trust a God that would use us as pawns to take on a dare of Satan?

[nathanaelstacy1]

Sure. Feel free to share your thoughts

[summersun2828]

Absolutely! My very thoughts exactly!  How therefore does this reflect the actions of a loving God? And why put the tree of "Good and Evil" there in the first place? Especially if at that time, there was no such thing as "Evil" yet in the creation of man? A needless temptation, me thinks and a sense of God taunting and playing with his creation to see what they would do. Why should we pay for what our parents chose to do?

[nathanaelstacy1]

The Original Sin was one of the things that ultimately made it impossible for me to continue believing in the Bible. The creation account as a whole is so fraught with problems it's wild, but the whole 'God made humans perfect, yet 100% sinned when He purposely tempted them, and then he made them and their children die, but didn't want them to do, so needed to pay himself back a ransom...' just seems too far out. Thanks.

[BleedBNG]

OK, let's say Cain was born perfect and he decided not to sin. Issue with Satan is over. Cains offspring can decide either way. Would Satan bother to bring up the case of universal sovereignty by testing only a couple of people?

[nathanaelstacy1]

I'm a non-believer, Bleed. It makes no sense for you to ask me rhetorical questions based on your own belief. If you want me to understand what you're saying, you have to say it.

[BleedBNG]

That's OK, I'll just let it go. Anyways, it was nice talking with you.

[nathanaelstacy1]

Ok. Well it was nice talking to you too.

[nathanaelstacy1]

BTW, if anybody out there thinks they can explain what Bleed is trying to say here, feel free!

[nathanaelstacy1]

Hey BleedBNG, thanks for commenting. I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from.

[BleedBNG]

Hey Nathanael, I guess what I mean is that Jehovah would just be waiting down the line until someone showed he couldn't be tempted. It would be like Jehovah saying to Satan "Why bother with the odds game... I'll just destroy you now before you try and deceive Eve." Sort of a "OK, that one didn't work... let me try again, etc."

[nathanaelstacy1]

Bleed, that makes it sound as if you think Satan would have won under those circumstances -- that everyone would choose to sin, and God would be forced to wait and hope someone along the line would choose to not sin.

[BleedBNG]

For now it's sin brought in, sin brought out. It wouldn't matter if perfect offspring sinned or not.The ones who didn't would prove Satan a liar and it would already be set. Satans charge would be null and void and would be the same as if Jehovah destroyed Satan before he tempted Eve. The issue still wouldn't be settled. Or Satan would put forth the charge that Jehovah had cheated.

[alamo11]

Nathanael ,can I ask you a question?

[nathanaelstacy1]

Shoot

[alamo11]

Thanks. Is the reason for asking the question a sincere wanting to know, or is it made as a kind of statement about God. Either reason is fine by me but I didnt know if I was barking up the wrong tree.

[nathanaelstacy1]

Well, it's complicated. The reason I asked it in the first place of 21cc21 was to prove the point to him that he believes things he doesn't understand (you'd have to read the conversation to really understand why). My point of asking it on this video is because people kept trying to answer the question i asked 21cc21 on his video. So I thought if people wanted to try to answer it, I would give them a real chance. Explain exactly what question I was asking (cont'd)...

[nathanaelstacy1]

But yes, I also sincerely would like to know how this strikes Christians. It wouldn't be a statement about God, but... I'll put it this way, it's a philosophical inquiry.

[nathanaelstacy1]

Does that answer your question?

[alamo11]

yes,sometimes i ask myself the same question

[alamo11]

Nathanael. I have to go home from work now so I will have to log off, but I really enjoyed discussing the subject and thankyou for bringing it up. Its given me lots to think about ,so thanks and I hope we speek again soon

[nathanaelstacy1]

Thanks to you too. Have a good evening.

[alamo11]

Hey Nathan .Its a great question, and I think I can clarify my answer, but of course i cant proove it. have you got time to listen?

[nathanaelstacy1]

Of course. I'm actually about to hit the sack (have been up all night) but I can read it when I get up.

[alamo11]

Ok In this exhistance you need order, otherwise chaos would abound, in other words if we were made immortal, I could blow you up every day and you still wouldnt die. Because this world that we have been put in is outside Eden, we need to fit within its boundaries. so there needs to be discipline. Thats where sin comes in. The sin virus is the one that Jesus came as a patch to repair. However Eden is a diferent place. and heaven is diferent. The disciplines required are not the same. cont...

[alamo11]

Maybe there are spirit beings in Heaven and maybe to an extent Eden was uncorrupted. To protect that situation in heaven and Eden we needed to go out of it. Why couldnt we just eat of the tree of life. Maybe because god didnt want everlasting life to be polluted with sin, maybe sin is just a discipline for this world.

[nathanaelstacy1]

Well, that's certainly an interesting point of view. It's really more of an explanation of why God would require death as a result of sin, rather than why God would make sin heritable. But it's an interesting analogy nonetheless.

[alamo11]

Hi nathan, maybe knowledge of sin is the thing that makes us human.

[nathanaelstacy1]

So then, would that mean that God never intended any differently? Did he create humans with the full knowledge and expectation that when he gave them the opportunity to sin, they would, and would thus become "human"? (I think that's the way the Mormons have it -- but I can't say for sure, because I was never a Mormon.)

[alamo11]

Hi Nathan simple answer is I dont know.But if we are below the holy/angelic realm( for want of a better phrase) and above the animal realm, maybe its the knowledge of good and evil that makes us that way. Am I explaining myself OK?

[alamo11]

cont Knowledge of good and evil sets us above animals,but below god .

[nathanaelstacy1]

Yes, I think you're explaining yourself just fine. And, strangely enough, as a non-Bible believing, theistic-evolutionist, I actually agree with your point. I think the fact that we can recognize an overarching standard of right and wrong is what makes us human. I don't believe in "sin," as described in the Bible, but right and wrong, or good and evil, certainly.

[alamo11]

cont. So maybe to have an alternative to chaos, you need disciplines and guidelines, maybe thats where sin and death come into the equasion. Sorry nathan we are writing over each other. i will check out your last comment.

[nathanaelstacy1]

Haha, we're writing over each other, but I'm following you anyway.

[alamo11]

If you have the time to listen, have a think about this sinareo. lets say we all got together and forced god to make us not die. Ok, This sounds stupid, but stay with it. How fast do you think you could travel in your car. Answer is I million miles perhour or maybe 2 mill. Why, because if you smash into anyone they and you would not die. you could chop off a mans head 50 times and he would not die. There would be chaos. To cont...

[alamo11]

hi nathan, Again (with respect) I am not sure the question is worded correctly. God does not force us to sin, (god does not force me to rob a bank), But to move this on slightly ,maybe I should inderstand your statement as "god puts us in a position where we are capable of sinning, We are perhaps semi autonimous. And because we are capble of sinning,then we are forced to die. Is that how i should be understanding the question?

[nathanaelstacy1]

Ok, let's see if I can make this clear... A child is born; it has never committed a sin; yet, according to the Bible, it is already "sinful," That means even if it grows up to be a good person, it will still sin. Now matter how hard it tries, it will still sin. Although it may be able to refrain from committing individual sins, or classes of sins -- say, robbing a bank -- but, biblically, it will be impossible to completely refrain from all sins, because the child is born sinful (cont'd)...

[nathanaelstacy1]

(cont'd) According to the Bible, sinfulness is inherited from parents, who got it from theirs, on back to Adam and Eve. Now, if God directly created humans, as the Bible says, then He would have created within them the capacity to inherit sinfulness. So, according to the Bible, God does not lead you into a bank and force you to rob it. But it does say he created humans, he made sin possible, he made it heritable, and if you inherit it, you can't escape. (Cont'd)...

[nathanaelstacy1]

(cont'd 3) So if all that is true, couldn't it be said that, because we were created the way we are, God is responsible for the fact that we cannot help but sin? He did not give us the option of not sinning? Had he designed humans differently, so sinfulness would not be heritable, we would truly have free will?

So then, couldn't it be said that God has forced us to sin (if the Bible is true)?

[alamo11]

Yes I understand your points. Its allmost like a sin gene created by God. you understand this question is mega, and because of its meganess I wont be able to give you a simple answer or else I would go down in history as the man who knows gods plan for creating a human. I course I think about this. But we can always ask questions about how we were made. Why werent we made with 8 legs so we could run faster (i am not being flippant here) Why were we not born with wings.

[nathanaelstacy1]

Lol @ going down in history as the man who knows god's plan for creating a human. Just between you and me (and anybody else who reads this) when I originally posted this as a text comment on 21cc21's video, it was a rhetorical question. Was never expecting anybody to be able to answer it. But since people have been trying anyway (without really understanding the question) I thought I'd give them a serious shot at it if they want one.

[alamo11]

i am still pondering the question. God does not force us to sin. Maybe part of that human makeup is that we have freedom of thought,but because Adam and eve have chosen to eat from the tree they have created a non reversable situation, a link in the chain that cannot be taken out.When a virus is found on windows, microsoft put it right with a patch. In a sense Jesus is Gods patch for repairing the faulty system You may only get a complete answer when you discover how to create a human being,

[nathanaelstacy1]

Hey alamo, you've given some interesting analogies that actually augment my question. For instance, if Adam and Eve's choice to sin turned humanity into a "faulty system," that would still flow right back to God, who should have known what the result would be if sin occurred, when he put the tree in the garden, and created an opportunity to sin.

Of course, I wouldn't expect any Christian to accept the notion that God forces us to sin. One could hardly remain a Christian, believing that.