Bach, Prelude 20, Well-Tempered Clavier, Book II, A minor, BWV 889

[marcxopoco]

Much too fast.

They bring out only the 8th note line.

[j00nful]

che suono orribile!!!!!! gli acuti sono sbavati, i gravi sono a volume troppo basso e ugualmente indefiniti..il peggio del peggio..non c'era modo migliore per rovinare Bach...

certo l'idea delle linee colorate per le voci è ottima come quella dello spartito scorrevole ma ragazzi il suono...é ORRIIIIIIIIIBILEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thejake1453]

Aha, man this is a really bad-ass sound.

[MrTinaProductions]

do you have an album or a compillation online or anything ?

[smalin]

@MrTinaProductions Sorry, no. (except, of course, for musanim.cerizmo.com)

[MrTinaProductions]

@smalin thanks man, keep up the awesome work

[Xenogeek2]

Interesting rendition . . . and a little nostalgic. It reminds me of the Swingle Singers of the 1960s, who did vocal arrangements of many classical works, including some by Bach.

[Zractor]

sounds like a bunch o synced voices lol

[pieguyfry22]

do doodiddle doo you, you youuuu ^^ I love this

[mbggold]

Way, way WAY too fast.

[smalin]

If you've heard it played more slowly, this will sound fast. If you've heard it played faster, it will sound slow. Are you basing it on what you've heard before or on something else, and if something else, what?

[mbggold]

Based on what I've heard, it's played relatively slowly. Bach does not right tempos, but if the piece sounds rushed (determined by notes and their relationships to other notes) then of course it's too fast.

[smalin]

It doesn't sound rushed to me, and other performers' tempi sound slow to me. I believe that if you spent a while listening to faster performances, you'd get used to this tempo.

[mbggold]

Well... I have to say that sometimes tempos are disputed (e.g. one of Chopin's etudes has a controversy over being played fast or played Largo). I guess that since this is written so long ago, there's no definitive answer on how fast or slow the piece should be played.

However, the Fugue is a fast piece, and contrasts with the Prelude. By the basis of contrast, I think the Prelude needs to be played at a steady, slow (but not too much) tempo.

[smalin]

On what do you base your assertion that the tempo of the prelude and the fugue should contrast? It seems to me that for BWV 848, both should be fast, and in BWV 867, both should be slow.

[MattieSongbird]

This sounds a lot like Bobby McFerrin!

[usenetposts]

Unbelievable! Has it ever been done like this with real human voices?

[guyboy625]

that would be great, but for something close, look up the "king's singers"

[AsSomedayItMayHappen]

Or the Swingle Singers =D

[bennyK95]

Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo......

[mjvsbj]

@re. Smalin. The electronic-esque of the sound makes it sound like it's from 1984...which didn't happen yet in Bach's time. I see that if I listen closely enough it can be a great piece of music but the new sounds (I would say) definitely do not match with the "true" character of the piece. I don't really know what the "true" character would be but I know it's not achieved with these type of sounds.

[smalin]

@mjvsbj, here's a question for you: what do you think Bach's reaction to this would have been (if, somehow, he'd been able to hear it)?  He wouldn't have said "it has the electronic-esque sound of 1984" since he wouldn't have that as a reference point.

When Bach played a piano for the first time, he didn't like it, but his complaint wasn't that it didn't sound like a harpsichord or organ --- it was that its action didn't give him enough control. He was happier with a later, improved version.

[mjvsbj]

I don't suppose you have proof of his emotions from that time but if Bach heard this right now the way it sounds right now I suppose he would have been o.k with it since it shows the general character of the song but he would have absolutely suggested using other instruments or a different sound. I don't know what type of sound, strings?

[sammcalpine]

Awesome!

mj - "your doing it wrong, this isn't what Bach intended"

sm - "Really? Well I happen to know a little bit about Bach and it doesn't seem he was terribly concerned about specific instrumentation, what is it exactly you think he did intend?"

mj - "Look, I admit I don't know what the hell I'm talking about but trust me, you're doing it wrong"

[Asrialth]

wow man, this is awesome. really, this is some good stuff!

[guitarrasco]

If one were to model ALL the HIT songs of all time and somehow come up with a magical formula it would read as follows; Magical Music Hit Formula for all HIT songs of all time will Always be Less than JSBach. The world needs to understand the importance of REAL Music. Bachs' mind, heart, soul and discipline allowed him to "model" the beauty of music. My opinion, thanks for the Post.

[chopinop9no2]

Somehow, no matter what you blow, pull, or synthesize Bach through, it always survives with it's brilliance.

I'd always wondered what would happen if someone were to combine Scatman and classical music...

[mjvsbj]

Maybe it's just the new type of sound that this video is playing (compared to the organs and string instruments I usually hear) but it seems to me that this sounds so unorthodox from Bach's style of music. The fugue of this sounds more like him but for some reason the descending notes from 1:11 to 1:14 sound so alien to me. I don't know, do you know?

[smalin]

Having notes change timbre like this wasn't done in Bach's time; continuous chromatic scales are uncommon in Bach and (AFAIK) nonexistent in vocal music. There are lots of things about this that are unusual and at odds with historical performance practice.

I'm doing something new. It's natural to compare it to what has been done before and say "this is unconventional in such-and-such a way."

The question I ask is: What is the character of music itself, and does this sound help express that?

[chumanho]

I think the vocalists need some decongestant...

[heyjudenanana]

I have to say, not the biggest fan of the vocoder on this. Without words, the changes in tone and vowel shape become distracting.

Also, as a vocalist it's obvious that this piece is not meant to be sung; the wide range and enormous leaps are impossible for a single voice, and it just sounds wrong to put it in voices, completely unnatural.

Any of Bach's choral pieces are just as musically interesting but with the added bonus that they are written for singers (hint hint).

[smalin]

For the fugue, I wrote words, and tried singing them, but it sounded even sillier than this.

My sense is that liking/disliking this sound has a lot to do with experience. People with lots of hours invested in hearing the salient details in vocal music are going to be frustrated by this, since many of those details are not present.

If you want to give this a chance, try to listen to it as if it were a new instrument --- one that only incidentally happens to sometimes sound like vowels.

[heyjudenanana]

I just want to make it clear, though, that I absolutely LOVE what you do and I am in no way trying to take away from that. :) Just presenting an argument from a different perspective.

[smalin]

I understand, and I don't take offense.  I just think your reaction is shaped by (un-/or/conscious) comparisons to things you've heard before --- that some part of you wants it to be like something familiar and, not getting that, finds it lacking.

Notice how several of the people who have responded positively compare it to things that it is like ("sound like a vocoder", "Clockwork Orange", "Wendy Carlos")?

Try this: listen to the prelude/fugue every day for a few days. Will your ears change?

[smalin]

@heyjudenanana, here's a thought experiment for you: imagine that everything about this performance except the vocal sound --- the timing, dynamics, articulation, changes in timbre between harsh and smooth --- were instead present in a performance by a viola/violoncello duo. What do you think your reaction would be?

[heyjudenanana]

I definitely agree that I have a bias. It's just difficult to hear something produced by a voice and intendedto sound like a voice, and not compare it to one. Of course everything about the performance is great, but I can't help but hear the "do diddle do"s and think of a person. I will try.

I still am hoping you will try something more choral. I think it would be great to hear some words on this, along with something you can sing more instead of needing the machine so much for accuracy.

[smalin]

The C-sharp minor fugue in the first book is an instrumental piece, but the lines move in ways that ordinary singers can do, and I expect that the higher number of voices (5) will obscure some of the quality of each individual voice.

I'm also working on Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring (that's why I got out the vocoder). There, the vocal parts are masked by strings and sound okay; the problem I have to work on is that the instrumental sounds (coming out of a sequencer) sound stiff, artificial.

[smalin]

re: "I will try"

One thing that might help: while listening, follow the (conventional) score, focus on one part (doesn't matter which, start with the soprano, probably), and try to "perform" it as it's playing. That is, be 100% responsible for knowing what the timing, pitch, dynamics, articulation of the note are, so that you could sing it if you wanted (and if your voice could go where the line goes). Ignore everything else. See what happens.

[VolkColopatrion]

In no disrespect to this version, I really wouldn't mind hearing this on strings. :)

[smalin]

I wouldn't mind hearing it on strings, either ... can you play the violoncello? I can play the viola ...

[VolkColopatrion]

I can't find the notes on string instruments.

[B8Av3]

I can ?

[smalin]

@heyjudenanana, just curious:

1. Do you have the same reaction to the Swingle Singers?

2. Do you have the same reaction to jazz scat singing?

BTW, the bass part is within my vocal range (or, at least, was yesterday, when a cold took my voice down a few steps); when I was performing it, I was pretty much singing the pitches --- just not as accurately as with the vocoder's help. Bobby McFerrin could do it (heck, he could almost do the soprano part, too).

[heyjudenanana]

A cold and you could sing an A4? It's not only the range either. The approach to difficult pitches makes a huge difference. Good luck getting a singer to make an octave leap up to a high C. Or in the 6th measure, up a 6th to a B and then immediately back down after only a 16th beat. Those kinds of things just don't happen vocally. Even the speed of the ornaments and such is much, much too fast for any accuracy when sung. (cont'd)

[smalin]

re: "A cold and you could sing an A4?

I'm not saying it was pretty. :-)

I agree, what's coming out of the vocoder is superhuman. But when I'm doing it, I have it set up so that I don't notice the sound of my own voice, and I hear what's coming out of the vocoder. My subjective experience is that what I'm hearing is my voice --- that I am making that sound (on steroids, of course), and my visceral reaction is "YES, that is how I want to sound!" And it feels/sounds very natural.

[heyjudenanana]

(cont'd) Keyboards are played with independent fingers, where vocal chords are a single piece of tissue that have to be stretched and tightened for every pitch. As for the Swingle Singers, they have multiple people between which to divide parts, and differences in tone are used intentionally to represent different instruments. I admittedly don't have much experience with scat, but I doubt there is any as extreme as this. At least with major leaps, they allow a little more time to reach a pitch.

[smalin]

re: extreme leaps

I guess you haven't heard anybody sing Salt Peanuts. :-)

[mindygrahamkrauth]

awesome and unique...

thanks steve!

[saladshootavvv]

Very Wendy/Walter Carlos...and that's a great thing! You should make more like these. I can't get enough of the switched on Bach records.

[smalin]

I'm very seriously considering doing the five-voice C-sharp minor fugue from the first book (BWV 849) next.

[saladshootavvv]

Do it! please!!! And it would be cool if it were like Mr/Mrs. Carlos where the different voices use different synths.

[smalin]

Actually, I was thinking about using different vowels/timbres/something for the different themes (since it's a three-theme fugue).

[saladshootavvv]

Ok, now you HAVE to do it. That sounds too cool!

[jebeebus]

this should be on A Clockwork Orange or something

[Niffiwan]

To be honest, I'm not sure that I'm a fan of using voice-like synths for this piece.

[Niffiwan]

Compared to the version played on piano by Sergio Fiorentino (also on Youtube)... it's worlds apart. I think it was written intentionally for an instrument in which the notes decayed quickly. These ones don't, and it doesn't sound right (to me, at least).

[smalin]

I've played the preludes and fugues in the Well-Tempered Clavier on clavichord, harpsichord, organ, fortepiano, piano, various synthesizers, and now this (modified vocoder).

This is definitely the least like the others and, questions of better/worse aside, takes some getting used to.

I listened to the fugue of this set (which I did before this) many times before deciding I liked it!

I wouldn't be surprised if it took others a while to get used to this sound. I hope you can.

[smalin]

Fiorentino's take on the prelude is very gentle and restrained and, I have to admit, almost certainly closer to what Bach had in mind than my fierce, breathless version. If I were playing it for a piano competition (with conservative judges), I'd probably do it a lot like that.

I don't feel that way about the fugue, though; he doesn't take Bach's hint with the staccatissimo marks, and plays the whole thing too smoothly, to the point of the counterpoint becoming blurred (due to pedal?).

[Niffiwan]

I did mean his take on the prelude.

[OurenV2]

throw some rap music and phat beats with this and you'll have an amazing song.

[goldenhog]

awesome. i love bach.

[myoosic]

Love this one! Thanks for the great performance and pdf!

[JamFoub]

I'm quite liking this new stuff, adds some variety.

[Dodexas]

It sound like a vocoder!

Love it

[smalin]

That's because the VP-550 *is* a vocoder (with some extra features to make the output a little more like a singer).

[Lucario75]

awesome :D