Another thing about Jack is that he dosen't lower his head when he comes to impact. If you watch other videos of wayne, lowering the head is something that "almost" all good players dose. It seems that you can live without that...:)
@johngolfi I always say that as well. Just about everything that can be done with a golf club has been used to win major championships. As an instructor I have "preferences". Also, the videos are more like reporting on observations of what the best players do, not opinions about whether it's good or bad. Obviously whatever the swing being analyzed is doing is working; otherwise it would be of no interest. There are very few things about which you can say "you can't do that and be good".
@wdefrancesco I'm sorry but I don't know if I should take that as a good or a bad comment.. (no joke) Anyway, almost everything you say as an instructor I really can't complain about. you have good preferences and good stuff to back it up. As for me I have a problem with the swing when I lower my head, staying level through out the swing works best for me. And as Jack said himself "what works best for you is whats important. Have a nice day Wayne, nice talking to ya :)
Jack doesn't have a perfect golf swing . Then describe the perfect golf swing . Please don't. I notice jack nickaus shoe lace is untied . There are many golf swings that work well. Unless you get a video camera with a golf teacher picking it apart. That method may have value for someone that really sucks . And one other things even your camera can pick up on his will to make the ball do what he wanted.
I also disagree with your views of Nicklaus' leg action. It may not be what is taught, but it is comparable to what Snead used, and Snead and Nicklaus won more tournaments over a longer period of time than anyone else. It also isn't that much different than what Bubba uses today, and he is second in Fedex points, 2nd in driving distance and first in GIRs. Restrained leg action may be in fashion, but I've seen no evidence whasoever that it is any more effective or a easier way to play.
@jeffy10028 are you serious? no, seriously! are you really serious? are you in any way, shape or form complimenting Bubba Watson's footwork? Bubba enters golf's radar for a couple of weeks at a time and then goes away for a couple months. did you ever think that better footwork might actually make Bubba more consistent? Bubba has extraordinary hand/eye and can occasionally recover from poor footwork for short periods of time.
@MrSteckleinjr I'm absolutely serious. The "quiet feet" nonsense is a complete myth. If Bubba isn't scoring well, it's his putting. Last week he was number one in BOTH driving distance and accuracy, a VERY rare feat (pun intended), and he has been number one in GIRs for most of the year. That isn't just good hand/eye coordination. Deadly accurate Johnny Miller had similar footwook. Look up the highlight tape of the 1973 US Open and Miller's left foot is flying all over the place.
@jeffy10028 Miller and Nicklaus are not comparable to Bubba Watson. I'm not saying Bubba isn't really good. I'm saying he may be phenominal with better footwork! BTW: i watched Bubba mishit more than just a few irons last week--but those certainly wouldn't be attributed to poor footwork?
@MrSteckleinjr Why aren't Miller and Nicklaus comparable, particularly young Jack? You do have some reasons?? And who doesn't miss iron shots? No one hits 100% of the greens, but Bubba hits more than anyone else. I suppose you also don't like Scott Stallings footwork? That is just your prejudice. Where has any sort of comprehensive analysis been done regarding what is "good" and "poor" footwork, backed up with player stats, that supports your bias? You're just making it up.
@jeffy10028 Miller has the greatest round of golf played under his belt--period. Many believe he was the best iron striker of all time. Nicklaus is the greatest player of all time! that's why there's no comparison. and you want to bring Stallings into the argument? comical. Every successful instructor i've ever known or worked with taught footwork--including me. Ever heard of kinematic sequencing? playing golf from ground up? Walk away from this one--hopefully with proper footwork!
@jeffy10028 Miller has the greatest round of golf played under his belt--period. Many believe he was the best iron striker of all time. Nicklaus is the greatest player of all time! that's why there's no comparison. and you want to bring Stallings into the argument? comical. Every successful instructor i've ever known or worked with taught footwork--including me. Ever heard of kinematic sequencing? playing golf from ground up? Walk away from this one--hopefully with proper footwork!
That was what I did it my own way. I made ball straight well until instructor change me. My ball always slice like fight Jet. I have hard time understand my balance.
In the 1970s, one winter day I viewed Jack's video, Golf My Way. At least I think that was the name of it. What impressed me was emphasis he placed on leg action. I took that advice out on the course the following spring, and I immediately changed from a double-digit handicapper to the single-digit guy I have been ever since. I often play with different people, and the three biggest mistakes I see are: not keeping the left arm straight, not keeping the head quiet, and swinging too fast.
Hey Wayne - Caught Martin Hall on The Golf Channel as there new teaching instructor,not a big fan of his,figured it must have been the English Accent that made him the right choice.Anyway,he began off by saying it is imperative to lower the right shoulder at address even more than it naturaly is.What is the truth of about this.Even his fellow TGM instructors would have nothing to do with this set up position.What are your thoughts?
Seems that with the driver he is much steeper than I remember his later videos from BTL.What do you think he was doing to make such a dramatic change when he preached so often same swing with every club.
@secretogolf The best players often avoid close scrutiny of their own technique, but are not hesitant to describe what they "feel'. This is no knock against them: it is always nice to know what a great player thinks about what he is doing. It is also nice to not have to take what they say literally, as video analysis allows us to see what is really going on and enables us to compare reality to "feel". Hitting up on a ball on a tee and down on one on the ground are not the same thing.
@wdefrancesco I saw Nicklaus play at the 50th PGA(1968), Pecan Valley, San Antonio Texas. He did not win that year, Julius Boros did. However, the way Jack hit the driver was beyond belief, especially with a persimmon driver. He hit it very long and very high, under normal conditions. The holes I watched him play, he was hitting it 30, 40, 50 yards beyond the majority of PGA players, with the exception of Johnny Miller. Like they said, "He shrunk the golf course"!!
At impact it still seems that the club shaft gets to the same angle as address,of course with the handle leading the head.I have seen many Nicklaus video and this is something he does with incredible consistency.I based my swing on Nicklaus video and books.You are the first person I have heard mention this anlge of impact.Sometimes reffered to as how the club lies
OP--that's the distinction between Nicklaus and everybody playing today, except when Woods is thinking straight. Nicklaus (and Woods on a good week) assumed distance and used it as a means of control, whether throttling back or using conservative club selection, because it meant something to hit fairways and destroyed your score to miss them consistently. Now you can win the U.S. Open hitting barely over half the fairways (check Woods' and Mediate's stats at Torrey, for instance).
Of course, the other distinction between Nicklaus and Bubba W is that Nicklaus won all the time and beat players the quality of Palmer, Player, Trevino, Casper, Miller, Watson, et al. when he won.
And again, of course you have a perfect right to be as analytical as you want--and I really do appreciate you posting this and other videos--but it bears repeating that Nicklaus himself avoided this approach like the plague.
Can't help thinking that if Nicklaus himself had ever thought this way, or if Grout had taught him this way, you might never have heard of him. He really resisted superdetailed thoughts in his own practice and play, and even wanted to stay away from video as much as possible.
i think everyone should have their individual swing, otherwise trying to copy a flawless swing will keep defaulting you to more and more problems.. GO JACK!
My argument would be that this type of lower body movement makes for more efficiency and precision, not despite it. I believe it makes getting back to effective impact easier.
A very nice analysis of Nicklaus overall. I disagree with you that most people could not pull off the leg action of the backswing. That hip, knee and ankle action is very similar to walking and is, in fact, very natural feeling, even for beginners. Thanks for the great videos.
@Inmotion70 The average person could certainly make the same type of leg movement. The problem I was referring to was the difficulty in getting back to an effective impact from there. Most people can't, and over time most professionals have opted for less lower body movement for the purpose of efficiency and precision. Not that Nicklaus wasn't both.
@Inmotion70 Walking??? Natural??? No way. There is a lot of internal and external rotation of the hips and thighs in both the backswing and downswing and I don't know anyone that walks doing that, except maybe Jerry Lewis in one of his old dumb movies.
I have a question for you . You talk about push and pushing . Isn't easier to pull something rather than push ? so is Jack pushing or pulling down and thru ?
I'm not sure why you defined him as across the line in that shot? In relation to the plane line you drew? To me he looks about "on-line"...though this swing is also short of parallel. Do you prefer a "laid-off" top of backswing? (ala Haney)
@paulski5 On plane would be where the shaft extended looked at the inside of the ball. Nicklaus is crossed because he is short of parallel to the ground and his club is pointed down the target line. If he continued his swing the club would point well right of the target. Laid off would be the opposite.
The early Jack swing is just a great athletic move at the ball. You can't teach someone to hit the ball with that type of motion. He was reportedly quite a good athlete as a kid despite his somewhat chunky build. He obviously has great hand speed that's for sure.
It's a simple argument. Club head speed creates distance. Bubba Watson swings up over 130 mph, tiger too. Be interesting to see someone computer analyze a video and have Jack's estimated club head speed.
@JTPxxx unfortunately, it is not that simple. One obvious difference is the golf club, which is likely to be heavier and thus slower moving than todays technology. This perhaps could be estimated. Shaft length differences could be corrected for.
Not sure if he would be quite as long as Bubba since Bubba's a lot taller, has longer limbs, and is more flexible, but Jack would not be far behind and certainly would be longer than Tiger. But how much of this swing do you think had to do with Jack needing to get an artificial hip? Is this a swing that is not best suited for longevity?
@geesecougar2 Nicklaus won the Masters at 46 and then 8 Senior majors (I think). Certainly that would have to qualify as a long and successful career. Golf is harder on the body than most people think. I am not surprised that a player who played at a high level for as long as Nicklaus has hip and back problems. I think it's the nature of the sport, not his swing.
I would imagine its practically impossible to teach someone to swing like Nicklaus. As far as i'm aware back in 63 they didn't use video technology to analyse their swings as they do today, meaning all of Jack's compensations were natural. I'm pretty sure he wasn't conscious of what he was doing with the club/shaft/planes. It was more a result of his subconscious working it out for him, thoughts?
Thanks Wayne. I've loved your analysis of different swings, but I was curious to see how you would handle Jack's swing since he doesn't do so many of the things you emphasize in other videos. No drop of the head, no return to the original hand position, hips don't remain in the box like Hogan/Tiger, ect,. You still, though, managed to point out some great stuff with Nicklaus...Quite frankly based on some of the positions he gets into I'm surprised he could make contact let alone be the best.
@kyleroar The key was his swing was same with every club. As even he has stated. Easier to repeat something if you do it every single time the same with whatever club you have in your hands.
Or be like the golfers of today. A diffrent swing with every club you hit. Is it any wonder one week they win the next they miss the cut.
Or be like Tiger and every year hire a new swing coach. I wonder if he could even play without one?
Don Trahan uses the upright back swing and forward swing with almost none of the lower body movement.
msherer260 1 month ago
Another thing about Jack is that he dosen't lower his head when he comes to impact. If you watch other videos of wayne, lowering the head is something that "almost" all good players dose. It seems that you can live without that...:)
johngolfi 2 months ago
@johngolfi I always say that as well. Just about everything that can be done with a golf club has been used to win major championships. As an instructor I have "preferences". Also, the videos are more like reporting on observations of what the best players do, not opinions about whether it's good or bad. Obviously whatever the swing being analyzed is doing is working; otherwise it would be of no interest. There are very few things about which you can say "you can't do that and be good".
wdefrancesco 2 months ago
@wdefrancesco I'm sorry but I don't know if I should take that as a good or a bad comment.. (no joke) Anyway, almost everything you say as an instructor I really can't complain about. you have good preferences and good stuff to back it up. As for me I have a problem with the swing when I lower my head, staying level through out the swing works best for me. And as Jack said himself "what works best for you is whats important. Have a nice day Wayne, nice talking to ya :)
johngolfi 2 months ago
Jack doesn't have a perfect golf swing . Then describe the perfect golf swing . Please don't. I notice jack nickaus shoe lace is untied . There are many golf swings that work well. Unless you get a video camera with a golf teacher picking it apart. That method may have value for someone that really sucks . And one other things even your camera can pick up on his will to make the ball do what he wanted.
sifurick123 5 months ago
can you do an analysis on Payne Stewart's swing?
steveingvar 8 months ago
I also disagree with your views of Nicklaus' leg action. It may not be what is taught, but it is comparable to what Snead used, and Snead and Nicklaus won more tournaments over a longer period of time than anyone else. It also isn't that much different than what Bubba uses today, and he is second in Fedex points, 2nd in driving distance and first in GIRs. Restrained leg action may be in fashion, but I've seen no evidence whasoever that it is any more effective or a easier way to play.
jeffy10028 8 months ago
@jeffy10028 are you serious? no, seriously! are you really serious? are you in any way, shape or form complimenting Bubba Watson's footwork? Bubba enters golf's radar for a couple of weeks at a time and then goes away for a couple months. did you ever think that better footwork might actually make Bubba more consistent? Bubba has extraordinary hand/eye and can occasionally recover from poor footwork for short periods of time.
MrSteckleinjr 5 months ago
@MrSteckleinjr I'm absolutely serious. The "quiet feet" nonsense is a complete myth. If Bubba isn't scoring well, it's his putting. Last week he was number one in BOTH driving distance and accuracy, a VERY rare feat (pun intended), and he has been number one in GIRs for most of the year. That isn't just good hand/eye coordination. Deadly accurate Johnny Miller had similar footwook. Look up the highlight tape of the 1973 US Open and Miller's left foot is flying all over the place.
jeffy10028 5 months ago
@jeffy10028 Miller and Nicklaus are not comparable to Bubba Watson. I'm not saying Bubba isn't really good. I'm saying he may be phenominal with better footwork! BTW: i watched Bubba mishit more than just a few irons last week--but those certainly wouldn't be attributed to poor footwork?
MrSteckleinjr 5 months ago
@MrSteckleinjr Why aren't Miller and Nicklaus comparable, particularly young Jack? You do have some reasons?? And who doesn't miss iron shots? No one hits 100% of the greens, but Bubba hits more than anyone else. I suppose you also don't like Scott Stallings footwork? That is just your prejudice. Where has any sort of comprehensive analysis been done regarding what is "good" and "poor" footwork, backed up with player stats, that supports your bias? You're just making it up.
jeffy10028 5 months ago
@jeffy10028 Miller has the greatest round of golf played under his belt--period. Many believe he was the best iron striker of all time. Nicklaus is the greatest player of all time! that's why there's no comparison. and you want to bring Stallings into the argument? comical. Every successful instructor i've ever known or worked with taught footwork--including me. Ever heard of kinematic sequencing? playing golf from ground up? Walk away from this one--hopefully with proper footwork!
MrSteckleinjr 5 months ago
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@jeffy10028 Miller has the greatest round of golf played under his belt--period. Many believe he was the best iron striker of all time. Nicklaus is the greatest player of all time! that's why there's no comparison. and you want to bring Stallings into the argument? comical. Every successful instructor i've ever known or worked with taught footwork--including me. Ever heard of kinematic sequencing? playing golf from ground up? Walk away from this one--hopefully with proper footwork!
MrSteckleinjr 5 months ago
That was what I did it my own way. I made ball straight well until instructor change me. My ball always slice like fight Jet. I have hard time understand my balance.
Cougman1978 9 months ago
In the 1970s, one winter day I viewed Jack's video, Golf My Way. At least I think that was the name of it. What impressed me was emphasis he placed on leg action. I took that advice out on the course the following spring, and I immediately changed from a double-digit handicapper to the single-digit guy I have been ever since. I often play with different people, and the three biggest mistakes I see are: not keeping the left arm straight, not keeping the head quiet, and swinging too fast.
VrgniaMailman 9 months ago
Its very similar to Bubba Watson's swing. Jack would be the longest driver on tour today if he was in his prime
Gyro911 10 months ago
he just starts with his hands low at address, at impact they have risen to get on the plane perfect. address hands dont mean much.
kipthecaddy 10 months ago
Hey Wayne - Caught Martin Hall on The Golf Channel as there new teaching instructor,not a big fan of his,figured it must have been the English Accent that made him the right choice.Anyway,he began off by saying it is imperative to lower the right shoulder at address even more than it naturaly is.What is the truth of about this.Even his fellow TGM instructors would have nothing to do with this set up position.What are your thoughts?
secretogolf 1 year ago
Seems that with the driver he is much steeper than I remember his later videos from BTL.What do you think he was doing to make such a dramatic change when he preached so often same swing with every club.
secretogolf 1 year ago
@secretogolf The best players often avoid close scrutiny of their own technique, but are not hesitant to describe what they "feel'. This is no knock against them: it is always nice to know what a great player thinks about what he is doing. It is also nice to not have to take what they say literally, as video analysis allows us to see what is really going on and enables us to compare reality to "feel". Hitting up on a ball on a tee and down on one on the ground are not the same thing.
wdefrancesco 1 year ago
@wdefrancesco I saw Nicklaus play at the 50th PGA(1968), Pecan Valley, San Antonio Texas. He did not win that year, Julius Boros did. However, the way Jack hit the driver was beyond belief, especially with a persimmon driver. He hit it very long and very high, under normal conditions. The holes I watched him play, he was hitting it 30, 40, 50 yards beyond the majority of PGA players, with the exception of Johnny Miller. Like they said, "He shrunk the golf course"!!
watertonrivers 9 months ago
@wdefrancesco I have not noticed,have you ever done a Trevino analysis? I would be interested, he was one of my favorite players.
watertonrivers 9 months ago
At impact it still seems that the club shaft gets to the same angle as address,of course with the handle leading the head.I have seen many Nicklaus video and this is something he does with incredible consistency.I based my swing on Nicklaus video and books.You are the first person I have heard mention this anlge of impact.Sometimes reffered to as how the club lies
secretogolf 1 year ago
OP--that's the distinction between Nicklaus and everybody playing today, except when Woods is thinking straight. Nicklaus (and Woods on a good week) assumed distance and used it as a means of control, whether throttling back or using conservative club selection, because it meant something to hit fairways and destroyed your score to miss them consistently. Now you can win the U.S. Open hitting barely over half the fairways (check Woods' and Mediate's stats at Torrey, for instance).
emncaity 1 year ago
@emncaity
Of course, the other distinction between Nicklaus and Bubba W is that Nicklaus won all the time and beat players the quality of Palmer, Player, Trevino, Casper, Miller, Watson, et al. when he won.
And again, of course you have a perfect right to be as analytical as you want--and I really do appreciate you posting this and other videos--but it bears repeating that Nicklaus himself avoided this approach like the plague.
emncaity 1 year ago
back when he was blobbo
BoHoVsGolf 1 year ago
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Do you need to marry here is the solution sarafox.info
xeenapereera 1 year ago
Can't help thinking that if Nicklaus himself had ever thought this way, or if Grout had taught him this way, you might never have heard of him. He really resisted superdetailed thoughts in his own practice and play, and even wanted to stay away from video as much as possible.
emncaity 1 year ago
@emncaity yup. the game is low score, not perfect golf swing
dschultz6072 1 year ago
i think everyone should have their individual swing, otherwise trying to copy a flawless swing will keep defaulting you to more and more problems.. GO JACK!
qbb01 1 year ago
i love that bowed left wrist. nicklaus looks like retief at the top
danthemansa1 1 year ago
My argument would be that this type of lower body movement makes for more efficiency and precision, not despite it. I believe it makes getting back to effective impact easier.
Inmotion70 1 year ago
hey Wayne,
A very nice analysis of Nicklaus overall. I disagree with you that most people could not pull off the leg action of the backswing. That hip, knee and ankle action is very similar to walking and is, in fact, very natural feeling, even for beginners. Thanks for the great videos.
Inmotion70 1 year ago
@Inmotion70 The average person could certainly make the same type of leg movement. The problem I was referring to was the difficulty in getting back to an effective impact from there. Most people can't, and over time most professionals have opted for less lower body movement for the purpose of efficiency and precision. Not that Nicklaus wasn't both.
wdefrancesco 1 year ago
@Inmotion70 Walking??? Natural??? No way. There is a lot of internal and external rotation of the hips and thighs in both the backswing and downswing and I don't know anyone that walks doing that, except maybe Jerry Lewis in one of his old dumb movies.
jeffy10028 8 months ago
I have a question for you . You talk about push and pushing . Isn't easier to pull something rather than push ? so is Jack pushing or pulling down and thru ?
1renojack 1 year ago
Hi Wayne DeFrancesco? did you record the whole match snead vs. nicklaus? would be great if someone could upload it....regards tim
taumelgolfer 1 year ago
I'm not sure why you defined him as across the line in that shot? In relation to the plane line you drew? To me he looks about "on-line"...though this swing is also short of parallel. Do you prefer a "laid-off" top of backswing? (ala Haney)
paulski5 1 year ago
@paulski5 On plane would be where the shaft extended looked at the inside of the ball. Nicklaus is crossed because he is short of parallel to the ground and his club is pointed down the target line. If he continued his swing the club would point well right of the target. Laid off would be the opposite.
wdefrancesco 1 year ago
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isnt this golf swing more suitable for people who are less flexible/ shorter in height and have a more stocky build?
revolutionpollution 1 year ago
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revolutionpollution 1 year ago
is it possible that jack started the swing with his hips ala john redman/azinger?
izzo70 1 year ago
The early Jack swing is just a great athletic move at the ball. You can't teach someone to hit the ball with that type of motion. He was reportedly quite a good athlete as a kid despite his somewhat chunky build. He obviously has great hand speed that's for sure.
MrLuigiFercotti 1 year ago
How did he get away with lifting that left heel and his foot sliding all over the place?
vsp3589 1 year ago
@vsp3589 Talent
wdefrancesco 1 year ago
@vsp3589
Maybe it's just that current ideas about technique are off. Could it be?
emncaity 1 year ago
@emncaity They might be because he was the best!
vsp3589 1 year ago
It's a simple argument. Club head speed creates distance. Bubba Watson swings up over 130 mph, tiger too. Be interesting to see someone computer analyze a video and have Jack's estimated club head speed.
JTPxxx 1 year ago
@JTPxxx good idea. I wonder who could do that
wdefrancesco 1 year ago
@JTPxxx unfortunately, it is not that simple. One obvious difference is the golf club, which is likely to be heavier and thus slower moving than todays technology. This perhaps could be estimated. Shaft length differences could be corrected for.
atengnr 1 year ago
Not sure if he would be quite as long as Bubba since Bubba's a lot taller, has longer limbs, and is more flexible, but Jack would not be far behind and certainly would be longer than Tiger. But how much of this swing do you think had to do with Jack needing to get an artificial hip? Is this a swing that is not best suited for longevity?
geesecougar2 1 year ago
@geesecougar2 Nicklaus won the Masters at 46 and then 8 Senior majors (I think). Certainly that would have to qualify as a long and successful career. Golf is harder on the body than most people think. I am not surprised that a player who played at a high level for as long as Nicklaus has hip and back problems. I think it's the nature of the sport, not his swing.
wdefrancesco 1 year ago
Comment removed
paulski5 1 year ago
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@geesecougar2 Jamie Sadlowski at 5'11 165ish is the 2-time (back to back) World Long Drive champ.
Doesn't guarantee anything...but if he can be long so can Jack.
paulski5 1 year ago
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@geesecougar2 Jamie Sadlowski at 5'11 165ish is the 2-time (back to back) World Long Drive champ.
Doesn't guarantee anything...but if he can be long so can Jack.
paulski5 1 year ago
Brilliant analysis.
I would imagine its practically impossible to teach someone to swing like Nicklaus. As far as i'm aware back in 63 they didn't use video technology to analyse their swings as they do today, meaning all of Jack's compensations were natural. I'm pretty sure he wasn't conscious of what he was doing with the club/shaft/planes. It was more a result of his subconscious working it out for him, thoughts?
HabloIrlandes 1 year ago
Thanks Wayne. I've loved your analysis of different swings, but I was curious to see how you would handle Jack's swing since he doesn't do so many of the things you emphasize in other videos. No drop of the head, no return to the original hand position, hips don't remain in the box like Hogan/Tiger, ect,. You still, though, managed to point out some great stuff with Nicklaus...Quite frankly based on some of the positions he gets into I'm surprised he could make contact let alone be the best.
kyleroar 1 year ago
@kyleroar The key was his swing was same with every club. As even he has stated. Easier to repeat something if you do it every single time the same with whatever club you have in your hands.
Or be like the golfers of today. A diffrent swing with every club you hit. Is it any wonder one week they win the next they miss the cut.
Or be like Tiger and every year hire a new swing coach. I wonder if he could even play without one?
as435943 5 months ago
was that watcher who requested me?
Nightwing690 1 year ago