If purgatory is true then the 'catholic' Christ didn't accomplish anything on the cross, wasted his time and died for nothing. The 'catholic' Christ should have hired a pro instead of doing the job himself. The Christ of Christianity is the Pro. He got the job on the cross done right the first time. And.....He did it for free!
Purgatory is a man-made money-making thing invented by the unbiblical rcc.Heb1:3 "When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS.".Rom8:1 "There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus.". Psalms49:7 "None of them can redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.".Dont forget Prov10:12 which never mentions purgatory. Acts4:12"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
@nightmareofsolomon --Limbo was only theological speculation, and never part of any dogmas; babies go to heaven, but in my opinion they will not enjoy it to the fullest since they were not able to live out their faith in an heroic and godly mannor.
I can see how you might thing that by looking at 1Ptr3:18 alone, however, in the context of the passage 4Ptr4:6, just a few sentences later it is said: That is what the Gospel was brought to the dead as well...(so that)in their spirit they might enjoy the LIFE of God. If they were truly doomed, then there would be no chance for them to enjoy the life of God.
What we have here is a circular argument. Self referencial proofs are meaningless. The pope's primacy was never recognized outside of rome by the early church. It was rejected by the churches in egypt,jerusalem, asia minor, greece, inda etc. Because of this the council of nicea set up a church government with the emporer as head & 5 patriarchs all having equal power governing christianity. The early fathers in rome forged documents, & rewrote the bible to manufacture claims to political power.
Nothing in my argument was circular. I never once quoted a pope to support the papacy! I even quoted St. Cyril of Jerusalem as supporting Peter's primacy yet you claim that the church in Jerusalem never supported Peter's primacy. That, sir, is not logical fallacy but absolute denial of facts!
I disagree. In Greek. the word used for Peter is a small stone. The word for Rock implies a Big Stone..Christ. Protestants, Greek Orthodox, Coptic Christians, & others DO NOT recognize the Pope as head of the Church. The early church fathers never claimed the bishop of rome was anything other than an equal in a council. The papacy is founded on 3 famous forgeries:
The Donation of Constantine, The Letters of Clement, & the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals.
The two Greek words used in the passage are petros (masculine rock) and petras (feminine rock). There is no size connotation. Tertullian recognized Peter as the rock of Mt 16:18 & primacy. Origen agrees as well. St. Cyprian of Cathage (AD 251) directly says "primacy given to Peter." St. Ephraim calls Peter "chief of disciples." St. Cyril of Jerusalem called Peter "first & foremost & chief of Apostles, keeper of keys of kingdom of heaven." Also St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, and St. Augustine
The greatest betrayal of Christ occured when the successors of Peter started adopting all the pomp and ceremony, dress, manners and customs of the ceasars who crucified their Master! In George Orwell's book Animal House, after the animals drove the humans from the farm, the pigs started dressing like humans, walking on 2 legs & then began selling their fellow animals off one by one to pay for booze and parties. This is exactly what the popes did with wars, torture, breaking of the commandmants.
Do you know what a red herring fallacy is? Because you commit it here. I would consider that evidence that you have effectively lost your argument due to the overwhelming evidence presented against you case.
Actually, in middle Greek (biblcal greek) Petra and Petros mean the same thing, but petros had gone out of of use. if he wanted to say small rock, he would have said Lithos.
destrecht - That's absolutely true, not to mention the fact, that Petros is the masculine ending of the word, which gramatically speaking, has to be given to a male. Regardless, Jesus didn't speak Greek, He spoke Aremiac which makes no distinction ... not to mention the unanimous consent among the early Church for those who mention it (and there were none that said to the contrary or gave an alternate interpretation/ or arguement).
The Rock Jesus refers to is himself not Peter. The cornerstone in ancient building was the point of true begining. It was absolutely level, plumb, & perfectly square. It had sound bearing. Peter could never be this. Why would Christ found his church on a man who denied him, ran away,or a man Christ rebuked saying"away from me satan" Don't make sense. Forgiveness of sins was given a Pentecost to all Christians, As for purgatory, again NO BIBLICAL EVIDENCE. But indulgences are a great moneymaker!
Look! More empty claims from the empty claim artist. I give evidence of purgatory and you claim that there is none. You do not provide proof, argument, or even an alternative interpretation to the passages I quote.
Check the Greek in Mt 16:18. It is blatantly obvious that Peter is the rock on this passage. Protestant and Catholic scholars alike acknowledge this.
The papacy is a man made invention. Read the bible. The church is founded on Christ not Peter. Christ died for sins once. The atonement was made. There is no Purgatory.
Heaven and Hell are metaphors not real places. They stand for a unity or separation from God. Suggest reading John Domonic Crossan. CAtholicisim has many false teachings, you've got to clean house. Believe what makes sense. Disregard the rest.
??? First of all, your comment never actually addresses my video (except for a brief unsubstantiated statement that basically says, "You're wong!" {great argument there}). As to all your other red herrings: Mt 16:18 Jesus changes Simon's name to Rock (Petros) and says that on that rock He will build His Church. Christ did die for sins once, at least you got that right. Heaven and Hell are not metaphors, but you did essentially define them. You say read Bible but then say Crossan. What about...
I think it's amazing how arrogant kiwichristian is to think that he's so much of a bible scholar that he debunk the Church that compiled the Bible
macman1252 6 months ago
If purgatory is true then the 'catholic' Christ didn't accomplish anything on the cross, wasted his time and died for nothing. The 'catholic' Christ should have hired a pro instead of doing the job himself. The Christ of Christianity is the Pro. He got the job on the cross done right the first time. And.....He did it for free!
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
Purgatory is a man-made money-making thing invented by the unbiblical rcc.Heb1:3 "When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS.".Rom8:1 "There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus.". Psalms49:7 "None of them can redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.".Dont forget Prov10:12 which never mentions purgatory. Acts4:12"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
OMG It was the nazi prison dream I had, I was a prisoner & my cuffs were off, and I freed others.. please write to me as soon as possible thank you
InstrumentofGod360 2 years ago
So, what happens to dead babies, since the pope did away with limbo?
nightmareofsolomon 2 years ago
@nightmareofsolomon --Limbo was only theological speculation, and never part of any dogmas; babies go to heaven, but in my opinion they will not enjoy it to the fullest since they were not able to live out their faith in an heroic and godly mannor.
AtomicMonster454 2 years ago
@AtomicMonster454 So they get stiffed for dying too soon, huh?
nightmareofsolomon 1 year ago
@nightmareofsolomon They are automatically saved, according to the Word of God.
kiwichristian2009 1 year ago
@kiwichristian2009 That's a relief!
nightmareofsolomon 1 year ago
i think the preach was more of a victory. saying the good news to all the demons and unsaved that they are doomed.
anythingnew 3 years ago
I can see how you might thing that by looking at 1Ptr3:18 alone, however, in the context of the passage 4Ptr4:6, just a few sentences later it is said: That is what the Gospel was brought to the dead as well...(so that)in their spirit they might enjoy the LIFE of God. If they were truly doomed, then there would be no chance for them to enjoy the life of God.
haojiesheng 3 years ago
What we have here is a circular argument. Self referencial proofs are meaningless. The pope's primacy was never recognized outside of rome by the early church. It was rejected by the churches in egypt,jerusalem, asia minor, greece, inda etc. Because of this the council of nicea set up a church government with the emporer as head & 5 patriarchs all having equal power governing christianity. The early fathers in rome forged documents, & rewrote the bible to manufacture claims to political power.
13mns 3 years ago
Nothing in my argument was circular. I never once quoted a pope to support the papacy! I even quoted St. Cyril of Jerusalem as supporting Peter's primacy yet you claim that the church in Jerusalem never supported Peter's primacy. That, sir, is not logical fallacy but absolute denial of facts!
haojiesheng 3 years ago
If they 'rewrote' it, how do you know any of what you read is right? '
"But for the authority of the Church, I would not believe the Gospel." (St. AUGUSTINE of Hippo
destrecht 3 years ago
I disagree. In Greek. the word used for Peter is a small stone. The word for Rock implies a Big Stone..Christ. Protestants, Greek Orthodox, Coptic Christians, & others DO NOT recognize the Pope as head of the Church. The early church fathers never claimed the bishop of rome was anything other than an equal in a council. The papacy is founded on 3 famous forgeries:
The Donation of Constantine, The Letters of Clement, & the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals.
Forget tradition, seek God instead.
13mns 3 years ago
The two Greek words used in the passage are petros (masculine rock) and petras (feminine rock). There is no size connotation. Tertullian recognized Peter as the rock of Mt 16:18 & primacy. Origen agrees as well. St. Cyprian of Cathage (AD 251) directly says "primacy given to Peter." St. Ephraim calls Peter "chief of disciples." St. Cyril of Jerusalem called Peter "first & foremost & chief of Apostles, keeper of keys of kingdom of heaven." Also St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, and St. Augustine
haojiesheng 3 years ago
To say that bishop of Rome was never viewed as a position of primacy among other bishops historically is simply false and unhistorical.
haojiesheng 3 years ago
The greatest betrayal of Christ occured when the successors of Peter started adopting all the pomp and ceremony, dress, manners and customs of the ceasars who crucified their Master! In George Orwell's book Animal House, after the animals drove the humans from the farm, the pigs started dressing like humans, walking on 2 legs & then began selling their fellow animals off one by one to pay for booze and parties. This is exactly what the popes did with wars, torture, breaking of the commandmants.
13mns 3 years ago
Do you know what a red herring fallacy is? Because you commit it here. I would consider that evidence that you have effectively lost your argument due to the overwhelming evidence presented against you case.
haojiesheng 3 years ago
Actually, in middle Greek (biblcal greek) Petra and Petros mean the same thing, but petros had gone out of of use. if he wanted to say small rock, he would have said Lithos.
destrecht 3 years ago
destrecht - That's absolutely true, not to mention the fact, that Petros is the masculine ending of the word, which gramatically speaking, has to be given to a male. Regardless, Jesus didn't speak Greek, He spoke Aremiac which makes no distinction ... not to mention the unanimous consent among the early Church for those who mention it (and there were none that said to the contrary or gave an alternate interpretation/ or arguement).
Mowfest 2 years ago
The Rock Jesus refers to is himself not Peter. The cornerstone in ancient building was the point of true begining. It was absolutely level, plumb, & perfectly square. It had sound bearing. Peter could never be this. Why would Christ found his church on a man who denied him, ran away,or a man Christ rebuked saying"away from me satan" Don't make sense. Forgiveness of sins was given a Pentecost to all Christians, As for purgatory, again NO BIBLICAL EVIDENCE. But indulgences are a great moneymaker!
13mns 3 years ago
Look! More empty claims from the empty claim artist. I give evidence of purgatory and you claim that there is none. You do not provide proof, argument, or even an alternative interpretation to the passages I quote.
Check the Greek in Mt 16:18. It is blatantly obvious that Peter is the rock on this passage. Protestant and Catholic scholars alike acknowledge this.
haojiesheng 3 years ago
The papacy is a man made invention. Read the bible. The church is founded on Christ not Peter. Christ died for sins once. The atonement was made. There is no Purgatory.
Heaven and Hell are metaphors not real places. They stand for a unity or separation from God. Suggest reading John Domonic Crossan. CAtholicisim has many false teachings, you've got to clean house. Believe what makes sense. Disregard the rest.
13mns 3 years ago
??? First of all, your comment never actually addresses my video (except for a brief unsubstantiated statement that basically says, "You're wong!" {great argument there}). As to all your other red herrings: Mt 16:18 Jesus changes Simon's name to Rock (Petros) and says that on that rock He will build His Church. Christ did die for sins once, at least you got that right. Heaven and Hell are not metaphors, but you did essentially define them. You say read Bible but then say Crossan. What about...
haojiesheng 3 years ago
... the ancient Christian writers who where much closer to Christ and His apostles?
haojiesheng 3 years ago