@kubujak1989 First of all - the Лемківска бесіда is something very peculiar - it is not just a dialect - it's rather a group of dialects that evolved from many languages affecting old ruthenian language basis. The core is old ruthenian (called "rusyn" nowadays) with all the variety caused by the border area - you have Polish, Slovakian, Hungarian, Walahian words in it... Don't be surprised when you hear, or read "фриштык" for "breakfast", or "зрихтувати" for "to prepare" - German sound innit?
What is most interesting is that there is a strong clue that points to Balkans, proving that the Lemkos origins are of southern ones: the formal language of Voivodina is much closer to Lemko spoken language than Ukrainian. You can compare it even investigating articles on Rusyn language in the net...
@scumimpaler Does not matter how you call it, Rusyn or Lemko - it's a pure Ukrainian language, as simple as that. Obviously, the language of Voivodina is similar, because all the Slavs came from Ukraine.
@laconically It's more of political issues rather. When one starts talking about Lemko language and its origins s/he closes immediately to the problem of Lemko's identity. Many of Lemkos finds it impossible to stand calling them 'Ukrainians' - and this has a reflection on language. I remember a moment when a greek-catholic priest made a speech during funeral in a village speaking pure Ukrainian - and the buried's family demonstrated they 'couldn't understand the talk' (what made priest mad).
@scumimpaler That only shows they are true Ukrainians, i.e. the very stubborn people on this planet, nobody will never change their mind. The only weakness here is a Slavic origin, because all the Slavs are "Ukrainians" in any case.
@laconically Skillful debater you are - no doubt, but let us be who we want to be :) Anyway - your assumptions seem to make most of our discussion void - I'm afraid. I'm talking about national aspect of Ukraine - you are closer to anthropological one, or something similar. Going further in this manner: We are all Africans from Congo, aren't we? Greetings!
@scumimpaler Sure, just some of us are more Africans than others. As for the ethnicity, the name "Ukrainians" isn't our self name, we all are Rusyns, Rus... Slovene, Antes etc. which is the same from any point - genetic, linguistic, historical etc. The Lemko language is indistinguishable from other Slavic dialects in Ukraine. Ukraine itself is a relatively small historical region in the middle of the current state of the same name.
@laconically I'd be stupid if I claimed that Lemko language is not very close to Ukrainian language. It is a colourful mixture of languages that grew up on the border teritory. And I do not tend to claim that Ukraine teritory wasn't one of main original centres for Slavic nations. I'm still talking more about heritage. What my Grandparents left me is more Slovakian, Hungarian, even Romanian than Ukrainian. And for us what the oldest in the Famiy says is law in this aspect.
@scumimpaler Well, Ukraine today isn't the best place to live, or even to be associated with - that's understandable. There are Kuban cossacks in Russia, pure Ukrainians yet refusing this fact, quite similar to Lemkos by attitude in that sense. In both cases people are rather misinformed about their history, the history of their name, their roots etc. They think they are related to directly Rus, refusing its another name, which is Ukraine.
@laconically What reminds me perfectly what Grandpa used to say: "Always be very careful when dealing with people who claim to know about who you are more than you know." And I'm not talking about today. It was even before WWII. There were greek-catholic priest trying to tout Lemkos, then activists talking crap... ;/ A chap speaking a bit strange language was trying to persuade my Grandfather that his proper place to dwell was Ukraine -WHILE OUR ANCESTOR WAS THAT VILLAGE'S MAYOR in 18th century!
@scumimpaler Depending on what you actually knew, because there is a local history, and there is a history of bigger scale, bigger than village, say culturally wider. As I understand it's a political question for you after all. Someоne don't want to dwell in Ukraine, preferring Poland, Slovakia or Hungary instead. I can understand Slovakia, where Lemkos probably could save their identity. But, hardly in Poland or Hungary, where the assimilation pressing is stronger, probably.
@laconically "Someone don't want"? My point is that there's no reason for him to want. It's not my choice - it's 5 documented generations in this place (who knows how many not written). What Ukrainian patriots can't get is that we - Lemkos, are "people of the place", "Locals". Persuading us that there's more natural place to dwell, because of some anthropol. theories IS persuading us to stop to be Lemkos. I've been watchin' Ukrainian activists trying to use this fact, and I don't like this.
@laconically As for assimilation pressing in Poland there's no problem after the state changed in 1989. One can learn and speak his language if he was forced by previous regime to grow up without it. They started double language road signs. People - especially younger ones are dead interested in our songs and even learn them for their beauty. If I feel pressure it is - alas! - on Zdynia's Watra - where last time during opening I heard NO mention about Lemkos - only Ukraine all the time...
To akurat po ukraińsku
This is the Ukrainian language
MrKyllyan 1 year ago
Comment removed
MrKyllyan 1 year ago
What language is it? Lemko - dialect of Ukrainian - yes?
kubujak1989 1 year ago
@kubujak1989 Who told you that Lemkos' language is Ukrainian dialect? Somebody fooled ya, mate.
scumimpaler 1 year ago
@scumimpaler So what is it? It's not another language like Silesian is dialect of Polish.
kubujak1989 1 year ago
@kubujak1989 First of all - the Лемківска бесіда is something very peculiar - it is not just a dialect - it's rather a group of dialects that evolved from many languages affecting old ruthenian language basis. The core is old ruthenian (called "rusyn" nowadays) with all the variety caused by the border area - you have Polish, Slovakian, Hungarian, Walahian words in it... Don't be surprised when you hear, or read "фриштык" for "breakfast", or "зрихтувати" for "to prepare" - German sound innit?
scumimpaler 1 year ago
What is most interesting is that there is a strong clue that points to Balkans, proving that the Lemkos origins are of southern ones: the formal language of Voivodina is much closer to Lemko spoken language than Ukrainian. You can compare it even investigating articles on Rusyn language in the net...
scumimpaler 1 year ago
@scumimpaler Does not matter how you call it, Rusyn or Lemko - it's a pure Ukrainian language, as simple as that. Obviously, the language of Voivodina is similar, because all the Slavs came from Ukraine.
laconically 1 year ago
@laconically It's more of political issues rather. When one starts talking about Lemko language and its origins s/he closes immediately to the problem of Lemko's identity. Many of Lemkos finds it impossible to stand calling them 'Ukrainians' - and this has a reflection on language. I remember a moment when a greek-catholic priest made a speech during funeral in a village speaking pure Ukrainian - and the buried's family demonstrated they 'couldn't understand the talk' (what made priest mad).
scumimpaler 1 year ago
@scumimpaler That only shows they are true Ukrainians, i.e. the very stubborn people on this planet, nobody will never change their mind. The only weakness here is a Slavic origin, because all the Slavs are "Ukrainians" in any case.
laconically 1 year ago
Comment removed
scumimpaler 1 year ago
@laconically Skillful debater you are - no doubt, but let us be who we want to be :) Anyway - your assumptions seem to make most of our discussion void - I'm afraid. I'm talking about national aspect of Ukraine - you are closer to anthropological one, or something similar. Going further in this manner: We are all Africans from Congo, aren't we? Greetings!
scumimpaler 1 year ago
@scumimpaler Sure, just some of us are more Africans than others. As for the ethnicity, the name "Ukrainians" isn't our self name, we all are Rusyns, Rus... Slovene, Antes etc. which is the same from any point - genetic, linguistic, historical etc. The Lemko language is indistinguishable from other Slavic dialects in Ukraine. Ukraine itself is a relatively small historical region in the middle of the current state of the same name.
laconically 1 year ago
@laconically I'd be stupid if I claimed that Lemko language is not very close to Ukrainian language. It is a colourful mixture of languages that grew up on the border teritory. And I do not tend to claim that Ukraine teritory wasn't one of main original centres for Slavic nations. I'm still talking more about heritage. What my Grandparents left me is more Slovakian, Hungarian, even Romanian than Ukrainian. And for us what the oldest in the Famiy says is law in this aspect.
scumimpaler 1 year ago
@scumimpaler Well, Ukraine today isn't the best place to live, or even to be associated with - that's understandable. There are Kuban cossacks in Russia, pure Ukrainians yet refusing this fact, quite similar to Lemkos by attitude in that sense. In both cases people are rather misinformed about their history, the history of their name, their roots etc. They think they are related to directly Rus, refusing its another name, which is Ukraine.
laconically 1 year ago
@laconically What reminds me perfectly what Grandpa used to say: "Always be very careful when dealing with people who claim to know about who you are more than you know." And I'm not talking about today. It was even before WWII. There were greek-catholic priest trying to tout Lemkos, then activists talking crap... ;/ A chap speaking a bit strange language was trying to persuade my Grandfather that his proper place to dwell was Ukraine -WHILE OUR ANCESTOR WAS THAT VILLAGE'S MAYOR in 18th century!
scumimpaler 1 year ago
@scumimpaler Depending on what you actually knew, because there is a local history, and there is a history of bigger scale, bigger than village, say culturally wider. As I understand it's a political question for you after all. Someоne don't want to dwell in Ukraine, preferring Poland, Slovakia or Hungary instead. I can understand Slovakia, where Lemkos probably could save their identity. But, hardly in Poland or Hungary, where the assimilation pressing is stronger, probably.
laconically 1 year ago
@laconically "Someone don't want"? My point is that there's no reason for him to want. It's not my choice - it's 5 documented generations in this place (who knows how many not written). What Ukrainian patriots can't get is that we - Lemkos, are "people of the place", "Locals". Persuading us that there's more natural place to dwell, because of some anthropol. theories IS persuading us to stop to be Lemkos. I've been watchin' Ukrainian activists trying to use this fact, and I don't like this.
scumimpaler 1 year ago
@laconically As for assimilation pressing in Poland there's no problem after the state changed in 1989. One can learn and speak his language if he was forced by previous regime to grow up without it. They started double language road signs. People - especially younger ones are dead interested in our songs and even learn them for their beauty. If I feel pressure it is - alas! - on Zdynia's Watra - where last time during opening I heard NO mention about Lemkos - only Ukraine all the time...
scumimpaler 1 year ago
podziwiam
jamesjasz 1 year ago
utmost thanks and respect for this - dziekuje!
LUZEDOG 1 year ago
pięknie dziękuję. cudne watry były
Meenysek 1 year ago