Predestination & Election: What in Heaven Are They? #1

[bluetew37]

Calvinism is a false doctrine and the Bible proves it.Calvinism is a perfect example how verses are taken out of context.The Bible does not contradict itself.Choose this day whom you will serve.Gods interpretation or fallen mans interpretation.Wake up.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 go read the Westminster Confession of Faith. when you have finished, make certain you note each and every false doctrine listed there. after you have read it; make sure you notice that this is the predominate creed of the Reformers; which is also become known as Calvinism. make sure you do as honorably as the Confession does in giving reference in the Bible to every point articulated.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain I can give all the verses the Bible has to offer but if your not willing to look outside YOUR INTERPRETATION you will not see because you can't see.The Westminister Confession of Faith as you said is ingrained with Calvinism.It is an eisegetical interpretation not an exegetical interpretation.I could go thru the Confession and give the CORRECT interpretation for the verses used but you would deny it and say I am reading my interpretation into the verses.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 that is false. the Westminster Confession is not an eisegetical interpretation. that is a lie. the statements of faith that are listed in it, are derived from the exegetical interpretation of the Bible. you either lie, or speak ignorantly of the Confession, if you should say it isn't.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain You have just proved my point.I pray you open your eyes to Gods glorious truth.May God bless you...

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain I have been there.I was once a Calvinist but as I studied my Bible I began to realize that Calvinism does not hold up to the ENTIRE truth of scripture.Sooner or later you will come to verses that you must deal with and Calvinism's explanation for those verses are clear that it has no understanding for the context.If your predestined or chosen then your name can't be blotted out of the book of life.Yet the Bible says it can.CONTRADICTION!!!

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 who is doing the saving? what you do or don't do? what you choose or don't choose? or is Christ doing the saving? if Christ is doing the saving, how can any be lost? if salvation is dependant on what you do or don't do, what you choose or don't choose, how can there be any rest, knowing as the sinners we are, we are destined to fail. but with Christ, who proved faithful, to the death of the cross, our salvation is secured, eternally, by Christ who chose us before the world began.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain Salvation occured at the cross when Jesus died for sin.So salvation was the work of God.Now we must respond to that work with faith.We must receive Christ and the salvation He offers.We put our hope in Him.Our salvation is not made complete until His return.We must persevere (Think clearly and exercise self control)until His glorious return.He doesn't force us turn from sin we are compelled by the spirit and use our freewill to choose not to sin.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 God doesn't force us as a tyrannt; but as a Father who guides, rears and encourages his children. God is a faithful Father, who chastens and rebukes his children. he is also a wise Father who knows how to accomplish all the goodness he has towards all of them. and what we learn is what Jesus himself declared; 'I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.' (John 5:30)

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 men will defend their free will all the way to hell. but disciples and followers of Jesus will have no concern for their own will-be it free or otherwise. their will, along with everything else about them, is crucified with Christ; is denied its freedom; to become the servants, even slaves of God in Christ Jesus; such that the will of the Father is paramount in every and all situations; that it be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 the only will that matters to a child of God is the will of the Father. and as the process of sanctification continues to occur until that perfect day when we shall see Jesus as he is (1 John 3:2); the constant battle within us between the Spirit and the flesh is revealed to be a battle of wills, to the point that as Paul declares:

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal 5:17

what is it to lust? but to covet, even to will.

let the will of man be crucified, denied; indeed mortified in our bodies, that the will of God in the Spirit might be manifested in us.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 we are indeed compelled by the Spirit. what a wonderful Spirit, who guides, chastises, rebukes, but never fails to lead us unto the path that he has begun in us. what a wonderful Savior.

And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. Isaiah 35:8

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 in the OT God appeared before Moses in the way, and was about to kill him, for having not circumcised his son. was God really going to kill him whom he had appointed to go appear before pharoah? or was God accomplishing his purpose-Moses' son being circumcised-through the threat of death? on the numerous occasions God has used similar experiences to accomplish his purpose-which for his people is the repentance/obedience commanded.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 the same Bible which declares that nothing shall separate us from the love of God in Christ would be contradicting itself if those who are secured in that love could suddenly find themselves with their names blotted out from the book of life-for it would point to something being able to successfully separate us from the love of God.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain So what your saying is God threatens people in order to get them to do what He wants because they are predestined?If they are predestined then they don't need threats because God is in control and forces them to choose rightly(IRRESISTABLE grace)not by threatening them(which is not what Calvinism teaches about irresistable grace).So there in lies the contradiction.God bless.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 the Father uses any means he chooses to secure his people. Psalm 107 illustrates a variety ways by which the children of men are made to call out to the Lord. the beginning of wisdom is and has always been the fear of the Lord. no man can rightly say he knows anything about the love of God until his wicked, hell-deserving soul, is made to know the fear of the Lord; who is both righteous and holy to condemn such a soul.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 the wicked in this world are as those mentioned in Psalm 73; those who don't go through trouble like other men, who as a result are built up in their pride. a people described as being lead on a slippery path by which they will be destroyed in an instant and utterly consumed in terrors.

yet God's people are such that are regularly in trouble, to the point that we are counted as sheep to the slaughter who die daily.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 the life of God's people has never been a smooth path in this world. it has been a furnace of affliction all the way. Jacob is a type of the life of one of God's elect, who when asked by pharoah how old he was stated, "..few and evil have the days of the years of my life been.." (Gen 47:9ff)

the amazing praise is how God's people, through all their trials, remain faithful. it is but the testimony of God's faithfulness to them to keep them faithful.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain The Bible DOES NOT contradict itself.Scripture backs up scripture and calvinism is left wanting.Read all of Ezekiel 18 which talks about the justice of a righteous God and pay close attention to verse 28 which says,"They will live because they THOUHGT IT OVER and DECIDED to turn from their sins.God DID NOT do it for them.Also read Deut.30:11-20 as well as Jer. 18:1-17.They are crossed referenced with Romans 9 and 10.It puts your Calvinistic interpretation in PROPER context.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:27

LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. Isaiah 26:12

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 Yea, the LORD shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase. Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps. Psalm 85:12-13

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2 Timothy 2:25

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Acts 11:18

"...to them that have obtained like precious faith ..."2 Pet 1:1ff

obtained=receive by lot=used 2 other times in NT: when the soldiers cast lots for Jesus' robe; and when the apostles in Acts cast lots to find a replacement for Judas..

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 a lot which: The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD. Proverbs 16:33.

before you attack the strawman that you call calvinsim, actually take the time to actually read the Institutes of the Christian Religion and then demonstrate where what calvin understood to be biblical truth concerning all that he addressed is not founded on sound biblical exegisis. until then you are only attacking rumor, gossip and hearsay and your own imagination.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Jeremiah 13:23

a sinner whose only inclination is to be a sinner is unable in himself to turn from his sin-it is an impossibility with man. but as Jesus told his disciples concerning who then can be saved, that it being impossible with man, nothing shall be impossible with God.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 a sinner cannot repent, though he is indeed commanded to repent, and wholly responsible for that inability. he is unable to repent because he is unwilling. and while he remains dead in trespasses he will never be willing to repent; and therefore will never be able to repent. the only means by which a sinner will repent is if God in his mercy grants repents, and thereby through the work of the Holy Spirit does as he says will be done in Ezekiel 36.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain The statement," he cannot repent because he is unwilling", is contradictory.To say that he is unwilling is to say he has the will to do it but chooses not to.Yet your argument says they have no will or freedom of choice because they cannot repent , its not granted to them by God.Then there unwillingness doesnt fall on them, it falls on God who grants the repentance.But if they are unwilling, then they must have a choice by will, to be unwilling.So God gives them the choice.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 a man's will can only do that which is of its nature. a fallen sinful man's will can only, and will only choose that which is according ot his sinful God-hating heart. unless God does something with the heart of man-that is changes it, makes it new, gives it repentance-that heart will influence man's will to only choose that which is of its sinful flesh-which can never please God. man has the illusion of thinking that he is free in himself. but Scripture is quite clear that we serve

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 we either serve the flesh or serve the Spirit. those who are not born of the Spirit can and will serve only the flesh. we who are born in sin, servants, even slaves to the flesh, must first be delivered from that bondage; a bondage that is even unknown, and even appears foolish to those who know nothing of the Spirit-that is those who have not been born of it. what sets a man free? truth. but unless the Spirit enlightens our darkened minds and hearts we will not see the truth.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 we could be like Pilate himself, who standing before the Light of the world was pressed to ask, What is truth? but Pilate couldn't see it, because the Spirit had not given him eyes to see or ears to hear it. even the disciples, who spent 3+ years with the Lord, didn't really understand what he was teaching or what he was doing. they certainly didn't understand why he died, or even after seeing him resurrected, didn't comprehend the importance of it.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 that is not until the Lord himself caused them to understand; an understanding that was only intensified and solidified when the Spirit of God came upon them at Pentecost. when a crowd is gathered to hear the preaching of the gospel and some respond with faith and others as the Parable of the Sower illustrates, it is not because of a man's will that is causing whatever response occurs; but as the Lord stated in John 10.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 if your salvation is contingent on you having your freewill or not, then you are in great danger. because anyone who has been bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ is made joyfully the servants of God's will. any true disciple of Christ will be uninterested in his own will; but will be as his Lord was in this world who stated in so many ways, but none more clearly than when he stated:

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30b) it would be kind of ironic for one who is purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ; one who becomes a servant, even a slave of Christ, should think that he must first exercise his freewill to do so. For it is Christ who is the Master, we his slaves; it is Jesus who is Lord, and we the servants. this wrestling about for man's freewill is actually contrary to the life of a Christian.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 a life which includes the denial of self, the taking up of our cross daily. a cross and a denial which includes everything about us-including our coveted freewill. in fact when i look about my life as a child of God; if find that i wander fastest, stumble quickest whenever that 'freewill' asserts itself and demands to have what it wants. turns out, it is really just my flesh waging war against my soul, which the precious blood of Jesus has been shed.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 God has indeed commanded that we make in ourselves a new heart and a new spirit. our inability is no excuse from not fulfilling that command. but God doesn't make that command as a mock at them, but declare in righteousness and holiness of his person what must occur if they are to find peace and reconciliation with God-that a new heart and a new spirit is altogether vital to it ever occuring. which by the time we reach Ezekiel 36 we see the Lord's response to his command.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 that in the full context of not only Ezekiel, but all of the Old Testament is the inability, and even unwillingness of those God has called his own to walk after his commandments, to do good, to love God with all their heart, to love their neighbors, etc. that as Paul sums up on Romans that how in there not being one that is good, no not one that seeks after God; that we all indeed have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 the only hope for any of us is if God himself should intervene on behalf of us. that according to his choosing, he pours out his mercy upon whosoever he wills. a mercy demonstrated in the effects stated in Ezekiel 36. a salvation, a redemption, a deliverance, a justification, a sanctification, a calling out of darkness, a liberation of a will enslaved to sin that must be, has been, is being, and will be accomplished by God alone through Christ alone by the power of the Spirit alone.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain He did intervene for us.That is what the cross is all about.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 there are at the end of the day: two religions in the world. there have only always been two religions in the world. there is that religion-which comes in many names and is found in every nation of the world and throughout history in every generation-which declares a way of salvation where man (in various degrees, depending on that particular religion) must contribute in some way to that salvation-even if it be in the slightest of contributions being by choosing.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 then there is the religion of God, the gospel of God which declares that salvation is entirely the work of God in every facet of it. from the beginning to the end. from the object to the subject. God is the one doing the saving, God is the one doing the choosing, God is the one who is doing all the work of salvation; which is the greatest offense to the crown of man's pride-that he has nothing to contribute-including his weak and feeble, ever mutable will to choose.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain I agree salvation is entirely of God.Salvation occured at the cross when Christ died for sin.That was the sacrifice God needed to reconcile humanity to Himself.Now we respond to that great offer of salvation by repenting and believing.It is a freewill choice of man.Just like angels have freewill.Worship is not coerced.It is voluntary.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 you can have your freewill gospel. your gospel stops at the cross with a God who is limited in helping to actually save anyone. the gospel that saves me is the one that starts at the cross and effectually saves every soul that God purposed to save from the beginning of creation. every soul that will be found in the kingdom of God will be there, not because of man's choosing but because of God's.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain LOL We are not the ones limiting God, calvinist are.LIMITED ATONEMENT sound familiar.Calvinist are the ones limiting the cross.Your gospel stops at the cross, ours begins there.Calvinist say in essence that Christ death on the cross was not powerful enough to save all, just some.That is why it is limited.And no im not a universalist.I believe the verse that says, "Who-so-ever WILL may come".You believe,"Who-so-ever is chosen is forced aginst their will".My verse is in the Bible.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 your gospel indeed begins after the cross-leaving the rest of salvation in the hands of man's freewill. my gospel begins and ends with God who alone is the Author and finisher of it. God perfectly saves all that he purposes to save-all 144,000 of them; even a multitude that cannot be numbered. i have not met one of God's elect who has regretted that God has chosen to save them.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 haven't met one of God's elect who was upset that God intervened in their lives. in fact, while i cannot speak directly for others; this sinner here hated everything about God. didn't want anything to do with God. i raised my fist up against him at every opportunity. and against my will, over time, God overcame my rebellious and God-hating heart; until one day, i woke up not only not hating him anymore, but beyond comprehension, loving and desiring him in my heart.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 i didn't ask God to save me; but God saved me inspite of myself. funny thing is: now that my heart has been changed; i find i am not offended at the mercy that God has poured out upon my life. was i forced? you bet. my will was on the fast track to hell-where it belongs. but i am one of whom God gets all the glory in every aspect of my salvation: for i know that in me there was nothing that was inclining my heart towards God.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 i spent 20+ years being raised in and hearing gospel preaching regularly. i even went forward countless times to altar calls and sinners prayers to be saved. but i never repented in any of it. i was no different than the greatest of heathens-in many respects even worse as i had now learned how to play the hypocrite while living like the devil. eventually i put away the hypocrisy by seeing the vainity of such empty professions-professions made by my freewill.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 for 12 long years i lived my life free from the influences of Christianity, the Bible and anything to do with God. in fact, anytime i would run into a Christian, i would use my Christian upbringing, and my college education in theology-which was liberal and arminian in nature-to be a stumbling block to anyone i came across.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 even in my army days i was reprimanded repeatedly for not swearing allegience by saying, "...so help me God." then years after while in the midst of being a truck driver, the Spirit of God came upon me and made me to experience the depth of the darkness and the place of eternal desolation in my spirit, with the only response being: this is your place if you continue to fight me. it was a terrible experience; absolutely dreadful-but it didn't cause me to repent.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 it would take many years later when by the peculiar work of the Holy Spirit upon my lfe that i would one day find myself actually arguing with God. when God could have in perfect righteousness struck me down for my arrogance and left me to wallow in the desperation of my life; instead the Spirit of God overwhelmed me-against my will no less-and filled my heart with the understanding of his grace and goodness like i have never known before.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 i went from being an arrogant rebellious God-hating soul, to one that was immediately humbled by the beauty and majesty of his grace as found in Christ Jesus. at that moment, i didn't care whether or not my will was forced upon by God. i know i was unexplainably greatful and full of praise at the mercy of God to my soul. what i do know is that moments before that, and for nearly 40 years my will was entirely against God-even in the days of false professions.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 yet in an instant, even in the blink of an eye, i found my soul, my heart, my mind, and my will entirely changed to where now when i once wanted nothing to do with God; finding that all i wanted was God.

you see, you argue about how it is your freewill that saved you; that is your choosing God. all i know if the God how stepped into the middle of my worthless life and saved me inspite of my will. and you expect me to be sorry that God 'forced' himself upon me. praise God he did.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 i know who has saved me. i know that i don't have to worry about my will being the factor in whether or not i am saved. i know that he who has begun a good work in me will indeed continue to work in me unto that perfect day. all the slanderous comments about how God forces himself on those he saves. they really don't offend anyone-except those who cherish their freewill above everything. if it wasn't for God going against my freewill, i would still be on the broad road to destruction

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain You are also calling God a liar and denying His desires.In Gods word He says that he takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked and His desire is for all to be saved.That doesnt mean He is impotent like you say(Which you need to repent of because your mocking God).God cannot deny Himself.It means that He has held to His own design of creation and how that creation will be saved.If He gives man freewill to choose then to violate mans freewill goes against his own design.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 there is nothing in anything that i have stated by which you can suggest that i have ever stated that God takes pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. Unlike man's will; when God desires something, it is certain to occur. as the Psalmist declared that our God is in the heaven and he has done whatsoever he pleases. God is not held to his creation.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 God is not obligated to man's will. Nebuchadnezzar was quickly taught that truth. certainly it was against Nebuchadnezzar's will that his kingdom should be taken from him and he be driven to live as a beast for 7 years. God who gives life and takes it as he wills, certainly never consults man or angels for their permission, their free will consent, to God doing whatsoever he pleases.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 certainly it was against Jonah's will that he go and preach to Ninevah. But God was determined that he would indeed go to Ninevah. God most certainly convinced him through terrible experience of being in the belly of that whale that he would be better off obeying God. man cries about God forcing his will upon and against man's will. this is arrogant and foolish in the face of overwhelming reality where God is daily imposing his will upon mankind.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 if man is left to his own depraved, fallen, cursed nature he will forever be resisting the will of God, all the way to hell. no amount of threatening will ever cause any of them to repent. Revelation itself reiterates this fact. that for all the plagues men repented not, but in fact only blasphemed even more. there is only one way by which a man will ever repent: which is by the goodness of God in granting repentance to them.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 the man who claims that he has repented of his own freewill is the one who does lie and even blaspheme the work of the Holy Spirit who alone causes a soul to repent. they further insult the mercy of God and the effectual work of the sword of the Spirit which does penetrate the deepest parts of a man to form in that person a new heart and a new spirit that is now made to walk in the ways of his righteousness.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 men then further speak evil of God's mercy because they make their freewill to be more precious than the peculiar work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the regenerate. the freewill of man, as with the rest of his sin sick life stands condemned unless the Holy Spirit, according to the electing grace of the Father, does apply the regenerating power of the blood of Jesus to that soul.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain of freewill.It is that simple.When it talks about predestination either for salvation or destruction,it is saying that there is a predestined outcome for those who choose God or reject God.Does God know who are saved?Yes b/c He is all-knowing.But He doesnt manipulate a person to go down one road or the other.They choose to accept or reject Him and then they get the deserved out-come.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 you argue for your freewill to choose Christ; mine is for the sovereign will of God to elect whom he chooses. God doesn't look down the corridor of time to determine who he will elect. God foreknows who are his because before the foundation of the world he chose them. God knows them intimately because God knows who he chooses.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 God didn't choose Abraham because he knew he would choose him. Abraham was from a family of idolaters. God chose Abraham so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth (Rom 9:11). God didn't choose anyone because of who they would be (i.e., someone who would choose God). God chooses according to his own will in being merciful to whom he will be merciful.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 when you sit in a pew and hear the call of the gospel right next to the person beside you. you don't choose God because your will is better, wiser, stronger than that person who didn't hear the same gospel though be preached to both your ears. you only hear it, as the Lord Jesus illustrated in the parable of the sower and through other parables, where only those whom the Spirit first gives ears to hear will hear and respond to that gospel.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 your gospel puts all of its hopes in your freewill to keep you to that perfect day; my gospel puts all my trust in Jesus who is the Shepherd of Israel of Psalm 121 who keeps his people, who never sleeps and will guard there going out and their coming in forever and ever.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain Now your distorting the Arminian view.Every Arminian(and I hate using that word)Lets just say genuine believer of Christ, every genuine believer of Christ puts all their trust in Christ.We surrender our will for His.We think clearly and exercise self control(1Peter 1:13).

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 and point of fact: God didn't need to reconcile anyone. God in his mercy reconciled a people to himself, not because he needed to; but because of his sovereign will in choosing to be merciful to those who were before without mercy. God has not reconciled humanity to himself. if he had, then all of humanity would be saved. But God has reconciled only those who are his, whom he has called according to the election of grace to be found reconciled in Christ.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain God chose to reconcile the world to himself because He desires worship.Not because He needed it but because He wanted it.God has given ALL humanity a way of salvation and for those that choose it , they will be saved.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 the angels don't worship God based on a matter of will. the angels of God that sit forever at his throne worship him because that is their nature. they are willing to worship him, which is but according to the nature of who they are-sons of God. the man who says he chooses to love so-and-so isn't actually loving that person at all. that man either loves them or he doesn't-there is no choosing involved.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain Your statement contradicts the Bible.If what you said was true then Satan and the angels that fell would have never fallen.Yet we know they denied their Master and CHOSE to rebell.CASE CLOSED!!!

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 i don't trust in Christ because i choose to trust in him. my trusting in Jesus is merely the state of my being. it is the evidence of God on my soul in putting that new heart and new spirit in me that he promised. my trusting in God is but the nature of that new heart and that new spirit. the will that is born out of that new heart and new spirit is merely the response of the nature of that new birth.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 you, and all such as yourself, who have manufactured their faith on the catalyst of their freewill are entirely contrary to those who have been made to have faith by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. your's is a gospel which teaches that men are born of God by the will of man, which is not what the apostle John revealed in John 1 of it being by the will of God, and not by the will of man. yours is another gospel than what i find in Scripture-though it claims to be so.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 and you don't agree that salvation is entirely of God. you limit the salvation of God to the point where God doesn't actually save anyone until man with his powerful freewill chooses to be saved. at which point if man so chooses, your gospel then obligates God to save such a person-making God subordinate and subserviant to man's will-which i find to be blasphemous. the freewill gospel cries against God 'forcing' someone to repent or believe.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 yet the freewill gospel doesn't really have a problem with forcing, so long as it is man doing the forcing and not God, by forcing God to save anyone who 'chooses' to be saved. which sounds reminiscent to the Lord when he spoke of those trying to take the kingdom of God with violence. this same freewill gospel makes the Almighty able to conquer and subdue anything and everything except man's will.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 so if God can't force a man to be saved, to repent and believe the gospel in this life, what gives God the right then to force that soul to go to hell? wouldn't that then be God forcing his will upon and against their freewill? when God subdues kingdoms, judges people, what gives God the right to execute judgment against them? or is it that God can only force himself against those he condemns, but cannot impose his will upon those he purposes to save?

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 what gives God the right? he is God. if God condemns one people and saves another, God is not answerable to any for what he does. God's will is supreme above all the wills of all of creation-be they angels, men or beasts of the field. those who are born of God praise him that he is indeed sovereign, and rules over all of creation. those who aren't hate the fact that God can and does overrule the will of man.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 one of the mightest kings-Nebuchadnezzar-was taught that very lesson. and when Sennacharib thought himself to be above God; God soon proved that he rules over all, by first speaking of how the axe-Sennacharib-had been created by God for his purpose; that though he knew not God, and spoke arrogantly of himself in defiance of God-he was soon turned back and died just as God said he would-entirely against the will of Sennacharib.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 yet men, who are but nothing, even less than nothing, think that they can control the will of God by the power of their own will. that by their will, they can make God save them, or even refuse God altogether. they speak blasphemously, and pseudo-piously, against God who would force his will upon their will. what fools men have become in thinking that the Almighty God is made subject to the will of man in salvation.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 what a fool God would have been if he sent his only begotten Son to die, and then just sat on his impotent throne hoping and praying like a gambler at a craps table to see who would choose him. but my God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has not been so foolish. the God of David, Moses and Isaiah has accomplished the salvation of all those he has purposed to make his people, to be his inheritance, to show forth the work of his hands to his eternal glory and praise.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 when a soul wakes up finding that he is trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ; all honest and integrity will reveal itself to that soul that he had nothing to do with coming to the place of trusting in Christ. his will didn't cause his soul to trust in Christ. however, finding that his soul was indeed trusting in Christ, his will having been liberated by the same Spirit that quickened his heart to trust in the Lord, finds it altogether agreeable and perfectly wonderful what grace is there

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 that is what is meant when the prophets say that his people will be willing in the day of his power. that soul which has been delivered from the only life it ever knew-that life of being dead in trespasses and sins-will be singing and rejoicing in loving willingness and thankfulness to the mercy of God that has been shed upon his soul. he won't care what his will wants or doesn't want. he will find that the will of God is far more desirable than anything he could ever will himself.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 if you have become a christian because you thought it over and decided to turn from your sins. then all it will take is for someone a little more clever than you who can then cause you to think it over again and then turn from your current state of practice. but if you are trusting in Christ by the power of God to your soul, then there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that can separate you from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain And that is why Christ said in Matthew 24:24 that false prophets will perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive if possible even Gods chosen ones. Because we can be deceived if we don't cling tight to Christ.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 and it is the Holy Spirit that causes us to cling unto Christ. It is the Shepherd who keeps his sheep from listening to the voice of strangers. It is the Holy Spirit which causes those in his care to heed to the word of God toward there soul. It is the Holy Spirit that causes us to walk in the way of righteousness and holiness. your religion puts the burden upon the will of man to deliver him and to keep him. the faith that i walk in is all of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 by the work of the Holy Spirit i have been made to put no confidence in anything i would do or wouldn't do. all my hope and confidence has been to put my trust in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit to keep me in every step and in every facet of my salvation, sanctification, and in anything and everything that pertains to life and godliness. where i find such events and states of being, it is not by me, but by the Holy Spirit causing grace to grow in me.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 your religion is that where your own will becomes the supreme factor in whether or not you will find peace and remain steadfast to the end. my faith rests in the work of God in me to do according to his good pleasure in bringing me successfully to that wonderous day. you can have your will for all that you think it is worth. my portion is that the Lord Jesus is my strength, my righteousness, the keeper of my soul, the hope of my salvation from beginning to end and all points inbetween

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain You obviously are refusing to keep the verses in context.How do you interpret Jeremiah 18:7 which says,If I (God) announce that a certain nation is to be uprooted,torn down,and destroyed,but then that nation renounces its evil ways,I will not destroy as I have planned.If God forces people to repent then he would have never planned to destroy it because they were chosen.Now God uses circumstances to get our attention because he takes no pleasure in destroying the wicked.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 God doesn't force repentance on anyone. God grants repentance ot them whom he has chosen to be merciful towards. You do presume on the will of God when you sit in judgment over him as to whom he will grant repentance. God's ways, God's will is not dependant on the judgments of man. if you don't like that God grants repentance to some, and passes others on by, then take it up with God.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 those who think that in themselves they are above being deceived by the power of their own intellect and the influence of their own free will are those who are the easiest prey for which the devil which sits as a roaring lion, just waits for the perfect moment and opportunity by which he may pounce on such proud souls. whatever one thinks they have in themselves that they don't need Christ for is in fact the idol that still sits in their heart-even their so-called freewill.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 for it is Christ himself who stated that there is coming a deception so great, that if it were possible (and it aint), it would even deceive the very elect themselves. only those who have been chosen-elected-by God will be kept from being deceived. those who think that salvation is dependant on what they choose instead of God choosing them, are not among the elect that Jesus declared are the only ones not to be deceived.

[bluetew37]

@HermitintheRain said, " for it is Christ himself who stated that there is coming a deception so great, that if it were possible (and it aint)." Its funny but I don't remember the Bible saying, (and it ain't) in that verse. You just proved my point. You have added to the scripture and implemented your theology instead of taking the idea out of scripture. If Christ said it was possible for the elect to be deceived then it is possible.PERIOD.

[HermitintheRain]

@bluetew37 the "it aint" is in the Greek of 'if it were possible". But Christ knows that it is the Holy Spirit that is keeping all those that have been elected of the Father. Christ knows that the Holy Spirit will not fail to keep them from being deceived. I serve the one and true living God. As the Lord elsewhere indicated that of those who are in his care/hand, Jesus has put them into the hand of the Father; from which no man can take them. they are kept safe by the Father.

[herrera2681]

I do believe in this doctrine it's so true.Then why in revelation it says that some people will choose the mark of the beast.John Calvin is correct I support his doctrine.

[timgirl100]

does predestination not seem so unfair to anyone else ?

[AgApE010]

@timgirl100

-

It isn't unfair because nobody is deserving of grace anyways. Every human on this earth has wronged God and spat upon His holy laws. If He gave us what was fair, we would all be in Hell, case closed. But because God has mercy and grace, He chose to save those whom He chose.

[timgirl100]

@AgApE010

yes Ive heard that explanation before , but still doesnt explain why he chooses some over others , guess we will never know

[AgApE010]

@timgirl100

-

Oh you mean like why He chose to save you and I instead of two other people who died in their sins? The only answer Scripture gives us is that it was "according to the good pleasure of His will" (Ephesians 1:5). But that's what makes it beautiful: He didn't have to save me; He was under no obligation to look upon me with love and favor instead of the wrath I deserved. It is awe-inspiring. I'm sure we'll know someday, but it'll have to be when we are finally in His perfect presence.

[timgirl100]

@AgApE010

so " according to the good pleasure of his will " is in fact saying he chose who and who not . He shows favor to 1 human over another ??? Im not trying to argue , really Im not , but this does not make sense to me.

[timgirl100]

@AgApE010

well I guess this says it all then " I will have mercy on whom I have mercy , and compassion on whom I have compassion " In compassion and love he " chooses " to save SOME instead of judging all :(

[AgApE010]

@timgirl100

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Yes, however one can not appreciate the beauty of this apart from reading it for themselves in His Word. I can articulate God's plan of salvation here in text all day, but it's best to read it in the Scriptures and take it in from the Source. I suggest reading through Romans, or at least reading Romans chapters 8-11 and allow the refreshing waters of His Word to pour over you. :)

-

God bless.

[JonTheJansenist]

@timgirl100 It doesn't make sense to anyone who is unable to exercise saving faith. The first step in understanding God's grace is realizing that you are spiritually dead and completely unable to accept the reality of God's revelation. The minute that you have actually come to terms with what your state is, that is the beginning of grace working in you. I hope that one day it will, but it is out of anyone's hands but God's.

[timgirl100]

@JonTheJansenist

yes thats exactly what ive been trying to say . Whether or not you accept is up to God , so how can someone who doesnt for whatever reason be condemned ? that is what seems unfair to me.

[JonTheJansenist]

@timgirl100 The first mistake people make when they read scripture is imposing their own understandings of morality on it, which is essentially what you are doing. God is the creator and mover of all things, so saying that something is "unfair to you" can not in any rational way apply to him. Part of knowing whether or not you are truly a Christian from a biblical standpoint is being able to accept the fact that your fallen conscience has no say in the fairness of the matter, nor should it.

[timgirl100]

@JonTheJansenist well that makes more sense to me than anything ive heard so far. Guess I have some searching to do to be able to come to terms with what I feel.

[NewDirection4us]

"....As many as were ordained to eternal life believed." That says it all. If Arminians were correct, it would read as many as believed were ordained to eternal life" since they believe that belief results in eternal life, rather than election causing eternal life. But even that would be troubling. The word "ordained" does not fit at all in the verse as the Arminians would have it. "Ordained" only works the way it reads correctly, the Calvinist way. This is a difficult verse for Arminians

[lizazoon]

Predestination has been silently abandonned by most protestant denominations.

[CBALLEN]

God knows who His elect are,but we don't,so we must wait and see to the very end who remains.We are to preach as if all are the elect,The Holy Spirit will sort them out.

[suzmicmay]

wow, ive been wasting time with paragraph after paragraph trying to explain this doctrine, yet you nailed it simply and directly in 3 sentences! I hope you dont mind if I use this, promise I will credit you :))

God bless :))

[CBALLEN]

@suzmicmay Thank you,I'm humbled,and of course you can use it.God Bless

[LairdEricW]

God has foreordained the elect through the effusion of the Savior's blood...

Not because of the Father's knowledge of our

strength

virtue

valor...or intelligence

But IN SPITE OF the Father's FOREKNOWLEDGE of our

weakness

decadence

cowardice...and idiocrity!!!

SOLI DEO GLORIA

[martenas]

You have got it mixed up a little bit. The elect are the firstfruits of God, who will live and learn from Him during the 1000 years.

After that time, all will be saved as by the judgment. When judgment is in the earth, the people of the earth will learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:9). Judgment is a corrective action, all will be corrected.  Eternity (and forever) in the Bible means "age lasting", not for ever and ever like we think of it today.

In the end, all will be saved.

[shadowcipher]

Are you trying to say that God is so kindhearted he created man, but then he decided he would only let a few of us be "chosen" and the rest are just screwed with no hope no matter what we do in our lives? Sounds like a jerk to me.