Obama and Cheney Make Us Less Safe

[Silberdachs]

Check out what Scheuer said on the Glen Beck show (6/30/09).

watch?v=_HtSb7kwTFE

This guy is a neo-con traitor.

[TajiTJ]

I am hooked on your commentaries. I am watching everyone tonight and tomorrow.

[therock3823]

One of the few times I have ever had to disagree with SA on anything...

[803honda]

yeah,  who in their right mind would believe that the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent familys in the middle east actully causes more terrorism. thats just silly.

[marcdevon]

I assume that you are referring to those innocent families who were murdered by terrorists. Otherwise, you are suggesting that the murder of innocent families by the US is causing terrorism which in turn causes the terrorist to murder innocent families. That's just silly.

[803honda]

I was refering to the familys murdered by the federal terrorist of imperial usa.

[marcdevon]

Got any remarks about those who were murdered by Islamo-terrorist?

[803honda]

thats real sad too

[HungryDingo]

I am alarmed at how similar the rhetoric between Bush and Obama is getting. Now Obama is saying things like "We cannot allow North Korea to get nuclear weapons because they may fall into the hands of terrorists with a vendetta against the United States". I absolutely loathe the man, but I thought even he was above that kind of nonsense. I actually gave him too much credit, something I certainly never thought I'd have to admit.

[freedomcorp]

4:10 Even a child can understand this logic. Why can't our politicians? or most Americans??

[marcdevon]

SA, If what you are saying is correct, how do you explain the actions by Al-Qaeda where they have specifically targeted Iraqi civilians for their terror attacks? If they were only mad at the US, then why were they bombing Iraqi civilians? How does your "we made them mad with our intervention" premise explain the Taliban's targeting Muslim girl schools for poison gas attacks? How does your " the US made them mad" premise explain Daniel Pearl's or Nick Berg's beheading or the Mumbai attacks?

[utubehayter]

Its not a simple "we made them mad with our intervention". If you care to look deeper into the issues, you will realize that SA is right. Most of the times, you will not even hear things happening in the world - and when you do count on it being distorted to fit the media goals of a very few interest groups.

[marcdevon]

That's my point but SA continually insists that US intervention is the sole cause of Islamic terrorism. His assertion ignores the fact Iraqis and Afghanis are just as much if not more of a victim of terrorism than are US troops. If the US presence were the main driving force behind terrorism, then one would expect for attacks to be primarily targeted at the military. The fact that Al Qaeda has sought out civilians to persecute proves that its more than a US presence that is causing terrorism.

[utubehayter]

No.. no.. SA is right.

The so-called terrorists are also human - they are aware that the USA is a "democracy", so to convince US military to leave their lands - attacking military targets will do no good - at the most will get themselves killed. Some locals will be stupid enough to attack the military hardware there, but the dangerous kind of people are those that are the masterminds. After all they have to get their message to the people of the USA for meaningful change in foreign policy.

[marcdevon]

It amazes me the way people are more than willing to give Islamo-fascist the benefit of the doubt whenever I bring up their attrocities. According to you, these reasonable people have reasonably resorted to terrorizing their fellow Arabs in order to force changes to US foreign policy. That's just ridiculous. They are not just "so called" terrorist. They are terrorist. The moral equivalency on display never ceases to astound me.

[utubehayter]

Islamo-facsists? Where did you hear that term? What does it mean? Heck if you can tell me what Islam means, and what fascism means, I will entertain the idea of islamofascism.

"That's just ridiculous"? Thats not a reason - that is a statement. It maybe ridiculous to you - and if so - go fight, I am not stopping you from taking over the world's bad guys. Just bear in mind the price of being wrong.

Besides, the "islamofascists" are exactly as reasonable as you are.

[marcdevon]

Is the word "jihadist" a better word for you?

[utubehayter]

No no.. lets deal with these terms - understand how rational they are - Islamofascists.. what does that mean? Of course Jihadists would be a better word - for them - because that is what they claim to be, that is like claiming the Hitler's SS was army of free market advocates.

Islamofascists - the term is interesting not for what it means - but why it was invented. Another thing to consider is the famous line "They hate us for our freedom".  Do they?

[marcdevon]

What is this "Hitler's SS was army of free market advocates"? Do you regard marching through Europe and slaughtering 11 million people capitalist? What is free market about forcibly aresting people and marching them off to concentration camps and subsequently murdering them? Please keep talking so that you can finish discrediting yourself.

[marcdevon]

Let's deal with these terms. You are so comitted to moral-relativism, you will not believe that these people, islamo-terrorist, islamo-fascist, or whatever, are who they are until you are in an orange jumpsuit, bound and chained and are minutes from being decapitated (see Nick Berg). Of course, you have no problem likening free market capitalist to Nazis but you are shy about using harsh words when speaking about "so called" terrorist.

[utubehayter]

Please don't tell me what I believe and what I don't. Leave that to me. It gets confusing when two different people start deciding for me.

As for me equating free market advocates to the SS - that was a obvious carricature - to identify the difference. I, myself, am a free market advocate, but its your unwillingness to read rationally - instead interpreting to your convenience, that you see things in such ways.

[utubehayter]

Also note that terrorism is no new in other parts of the world - like India.  It always has a corresponding pre-existing and prolonged occupation of a territory by a national military force. India occupies Kashmir. Same thing with the LTTE in Sri Lanka, which recently was decimated.

As for Afghanis - the hardliners are attacking those that cooperate with the foreigners. Its bad and inhuman - but then nothing is as simple as "they are evil, we are good".

[marcdevon]

But then, nothing is as simple as "we are evil, they are good".

[utubehayter]

Yes, indeed.. and that is why people should be careful before embarking on a crusade where innocent bystanders will die... 400,000+ of them.

[Stunr99]

I guess The Southern Avenger has a short memory and forgot 911. This monolouge is as usless as fighting a war while beingnice to those who behead their captives.

[macdaddi88]

----- 1,000,000 iraqis are dead......many women and kids....we are gonna be worried about a jewish kid there to make $ and a jewish reporter sent there by the war paper wall st journal.....i live in NYC , stun99 - so shut up about 9/11 u jerk off ------

[Stunr99]

"i live in NYC" haha...And?...when you wake up from your liberal stooper...you will look back and see how naive you were.

[texas224]

Messiah Obama thinks he is upholding our rights while in the meantime he is embracing Bush policies.

[SpideyNinety08]

oh thank God! Thank you...I have been saying this everywhere on youtube...I was beginning to feel I was the only sane person on here. You want a challenge 1. try and tell a democrat that a republican can be liberal and/or Bush was more liberal than conservative or 2. Try and tell an Obama supporter that Obama is doing the same things Bush is and isn't change...it makes their heads explode...they can't wrap their mind around it, but damn, thank you for that

[micsc50]

Obama has lost his nuts and Cheney is holding the knife.

[PsychoPunk1965]

If I would ever become a conservative, it would be because of people like the Southern Avenger. You actually make conservative sound rational, which is something that the neocons are incapable of. Thank you for opening my mind, and I am a man of the left that's too the left of Barack Obama. Then again, when paleo-conservatives and libertarians says they are for freedom, they mean it. For Fox News and partisan hacks like Fox News and the neocons, they don't appreciate the meaning of freedom.

[macdaddi88]

he is a populist and nationalist, actually.....i love SA

[tonysshadow]

Its like reading noise from 12 year olds here.

[y2knoproblem]

Just like the war on drugs. The more it expands, the worse it gets.

[bbburton]

Enhanced interrogation on the play ground. According to Rickie, Johnny attacked Jimmy. Teacher beats Freddie, Johnny's friend in order to get information from him about who Johnny is about to attack next. Freddie claims that he doesn't know, but the teacher uses enhanced interrogation techniques in order to protect Davie, Jimmy's friend, out of fear that he may be attacked by Johnny. Freddie admits that Johnny is about to attack Davie in order to stop the painful interrogation.

[printo69]

Scheuer is right on the issue as a whole. As long as the United States is going to police the world, theyre going to have to resort to these dispicible anti-terror tactics. Thats the problem with the so-called "anti-war" left. They're not really anti-war, just anti-Republican. They support war if its on their terms. They seek to continue the very same foreign policy that got us into the whole 9/11 mess. Not torturing terror suspects is great but youre still not fixing the real problem.

[sonofaglitch2]

Another commendable piece by the SouthernAvenger!

As expressed in this piece, I too find myself in agreement with much of Michael Scheuer's analysis, but I oppose and reject the practices of torture and rendition. Abiding by the golden rule is enough for me...Americans would be furious to learn of U.S. citizens or soldiers being kidnapped and tortured in secret prisons in remote territories, so we should expect similar outrage from other nations as well.

[RevoltorAdapt]

THe Jesuits RUN THE SHOW. Go LOOK up WHAT IS UCC IS !

[andystokie]

Scheuer is horrible on torture, sounds like a neo-con .

[printo69]

If you read his book Imperial Hubris, you would see that he believes in a non-interventionist foreign policy. Ron Paul cites Scheuer frequently when making arguments for his non-interventionist foreign policy.

[warcraft1920]

And who do you think these people will blame? Simple. The of ol U.S of A. I agree Iraq should never have been fought. But Afg. is a diffrent story. And now that we are in Iraq we have obligations.

[sarjil]

warcraft plz do go play warcraft , that world suits you more than reality. warcraft and king obama what a combo!. as for me i got work to finish, can't be hanging out at youtube for an hour.

[ubuibiok]

★★★★★

[whoo689]

The ideal foreign policy should not be too strong or too weak. We should not be pacifist, but we should also not be ready to go to war as a first or 2nd resort. War should always be a LAST resort. And we should only wage war if we are attacked or someone tried to attack us or seriously threatened it. And even then, we should plan it carefully. I'm all for the Just War Doctrine. It works! Neoconservatism and intervention give us more problems.

[whoo689]

If Hitler even tried to attack the US, I would of course prevent that attack and then declare war on Nazi Germany. I'm a noninterventionist but not stupid. But the world has changed. I mean, if China invaded the US, wouldn't you be pretty pissed off and liable to get a gun or something and try to get them out? You guys need to realize you cannot solve everything with military force. Esp. against an enemy that knows no bounds! We've tried to fix the middle east to no avail for decades.

[whoo689]

I say it's high time we just get out and let them deal with their own problems. Let Israel defend itself, for christ sake. They've got the manpower and the nukes. Let's focus on fighting and taking them out here at home so we don't have to wage war on them overseas.

How's THAT for a foreign policy slogan? "Stop them here at home so we don't have to wage war abroad." It sounds a lot safer than the kind the warhawks use.

I don't use the term lightly, but you warhawks are such idiots.

[warcraft1920]

I never said that eveything can be solved by military force. But we are in the middleeast for a reason. To kill the people that attacked us. Also we have allies that we have obligations to. You people preach isolating us from the rest of the world. Thats never going to happen. Our economy is strong because we dont isolate ourselves. We would also be seen as a backstaber and coward. Immagine you were going into a fight with another grp and your friend bailed on you. Thats not the rep I want.

[ubuibiok]

warcraft1920, "But we are in the middleeast for a reason. To kill the people that attacked us"....BULL ____ ! If there was no OIL there, we couldn't be there.

Our Economy is WEAK because of our dependency on OIL and if the Oil trade currency was to switch away from the US Dollar to gold or the EURO, you wold see Mandated Price control or Bread at 12 Dollars a loaf, as you walked to work if you had a JOB.

[warcraft1920]

We are in Iraq because of oil. Let me ask you were are the oil fields in Afg? Yeah thought so. And our economy is STRONG. One country caused the economic collapse of the entire world. That didnt even happen when the USSR fell. One country with 300 mil people fucked up 7 bil. And yet we are still number one. Thats pretty fucking strong.

[sarjil]

we are fucked economically, the world just lost their money not their capital, on the other hand we have no capital, so guess what we are fucked moreso than others. this year will be a watershed year economically for us and for the world.

[sarjil]

1st.remember iraq and afghanistan are 2 different game, I don't knoiw for sure, what is the main reason for atacking iraq, we alll know afghanistan had taliban giving refuge to alqaeda. whereas in iraq, everything is inferred and conjecture, but oil has to be one of the reasaons in theory that might have been the catalyst reason for us to invade iraq. 2nd.if iraqis don't have heavy weapons how the hell will they attack our troops laden planes a thousand miles away??

[whoo689]

Obama actually raised the defense budget FOUR PERCENT!! So much for "change." If I were him, I'd cut it almost in half. Close down all the military bases overseas and end the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq ASAP. Bring all the troops home. Get out of the disaster known as the UN as well as NATO. Try to get out of the WTO without our trade partners stabbing us in the back and come up with better trade agreements.

[whoo689]

End foreign aid and let private charities and individuals work to lift up developing nations. As well as encourage the leaders of those nations to employ capitalist reforms. Encourage other nations that rely on American foreign aid for weapons and counterterrorism to fix their economies to generate more tax revenue so they can afford this stuff on their own.

And of course, I would end the ridiculous, failed Plan Colombia. We have no business intervening there.

[warcraft1920]

Obama has changed alot. Do you people just like talking out your ass or do you have some IQ we dont know about. Lets see Stem cell, Guantanimo, Iraq, just to name a few.

[sarjil]

guantanimo is merely one of many prisons where so called suspects are housed, so taking out the most visible one merely is a PR move. 2rd. speaking of IQ, I beleiev my 2 year old neice has enuff IQ to figure out with all these withdrawal date pushback, permanent force, increased eployment, gradual withdrawal schedule, increased budget, troops to Afgh, all means withdrawing from iraq is bs, only replaced by even worse event.....deployment to afghansitan, if you thought iraq was bad, LOOK OUT.

[warcraft1920]

Ok name another Prison run by Americans where we know we are torturing? LOL thought so. 1. withdrawal date pushback. OMG he pushed it back 3 months. 2. permanent force. He never said there would be a permanent force. Only that a force would stay a little longer to help out. Notice how they wont be combat statis.3. increased eployment. I am assuming you mean deployment. And thats what happens when you dont bring back the draft.

[sarjil]

1. prisons are all over afghanistan, pakistan, egypt among many other hotspots, hardcore torture is done by others through rendition process. 2. so we know there will leftovers (allegedly about 70k - actually it will be more since there is no iraqi army or any intact institution to run the country) helping out the iraqis by building macdonals and mowing iraqi lawns basiacally perpetually (nowithdrawal date set). total number of estimated deployment will actually higher than in bush years.

[warcraft1920]

1.Tourture by us. If you have proof of any other place I am waiting for sources. 2. Acually its more like 50k. And yes they will be doing things like building schools. and such. Trying to get the people on our side. And Iraq does have an army. We have handed over many once red zones to them. They dont have to attack aircraft carriers. Choppers and aircrafts make better targets. Stem cell not important? Ya thats right who cares if can cure almost every sickness under the sun. Thats not important.

[sarjil]

1.according to newsweek andtiems articles that i have read in teh past on US torture methods, we have multiple prisons in iraq, afghanistan, and some in other nations where we hold suspects and where we also do borderline torture. 2. sure u can believe 50k, I'll beleiev based on my own experience with government rhetoric and reality and the opinions and reasons of folks liek general Shinseki and Michael Scheuer , 50k today 500k tommorow. 3rd. wow bushit words there,trying to get on...cont.

[warcraft1920]

4.gradual withdrawal schedule. Yeah cause we want all our guys over there leaving at once giving them a nice target. Thank god your not in charge. 5.increased budget. Yeah cause we do have troops in other places and a war in Afg. to finish. domestic changes? Mmmm Guess stem cell would be one Push for more unions, regulations, gay rights, energy reform, Immagration reform education reform trying to fix this economy. That enough for you?

[sarjil]

yes, as we all know akhmed has super weapons to target Aircraft carriers that will take away GI's to their homeland. 1. stem cell not important. 2. unions, yes so can be more like france and 1970's england ( government influenced unions are supremely productive and corruption free) 3. gay rights...lip service, and negative development. 4energy reform, immigration reform, education reform, fixing economy...same ole same ole. No progress no result, It'll be always in trying stage, never sucesful.

[warcraft1920]

2. Right cause Big buisness should dictate what to pay their people. Ha like China. 3. Negative development. WTF are you talking about. No progress no result. LOL. You obviously have no idea how this shit works. It took Obama weeks to get his budget passed for 2010. He has been in office for a little over 100 days. Dont bullshit me you had your TP ready before he took office. Oh yes the go play your game "insult" Whatever just another guy I onwed. Sorry I have to back to my level 80 Palidin.

[sarjil]

fighter is armed with ak47 and rpgs, not sophisticated SAMS to bring down aircraft, the reasonw hy our fighters go anywhere and everywhere over iraq. 3rd. Yes as we have seen in history governments know how to prosper and grow wealth, reason why every1 loves USSR. big business=big government, therefore big business officials act like politicians, and the people they are screwing are average entrapreneurs for their own benefits, with the blessing of their boy Obama. 4th China's real term...cont

[sarjil]

living stanadard has improved 8-12 in the last 25 years, where ours has dipped at least half. So yes i guess China's policies are total falure, u have to be braindead to say something like that. So lemme see, you don't like china where there is no big businesses, nation of hard working working entrapaneurs forging ahead making a better life uthinkable in quality just 25 years ago. according to you they are big business bastards, and we should do the exact opposite of them. Man get a brain..cont

[sarjil]

4th. you have no idea how common sense works, i am saying look at this guy in office for only 100 days and already the damage his done. 5th. yes government have shown to be diddlying around with the same ole rhetoruc and policies that are short on positive results and this obama fella is the same, except he makes more grand promises. 6th. Another guy you owned??!!! you are merely one of the million idiots who are hysterically spouting crap cuz their dream guy Obama said the same ol crap himself

[sarjil]

our side, handing red zones over to so called iraqi army which is more than sectarian militais, who at night attack other so called iraqi army units and US troops themselves!!! Man this must be bizaro world, Obamamaniac mouthing bushite words. Building schools??!! 1st. US army shouldn't build schools and we won't given that we would be building schools with M16 and not shovels, and "building school rhetorc" is propoganada used from beginning of time by invaders. 2nd. The average iraqi...cont

[shiftstart]

Jack, I think what Michael Scheuer is trying to say is that if you going to make drastic changes start with your foreign policies before coming after CIA. Though he makes a good point, I stand with you on this. Two wrongs don't make right.

[steve0281]

You are absolutely correct. The problem is if a government employee brings up something as potentially questionable or unConstitutional the only option they are given is to quit with a bad reference. I am not excusing it, but a lot of people just don't like the alternative.

[warcraft1920]

I find it the mindframe of you people funny. You think by leaving them alone they will leave us alone. I am against the Iraq war not because of the losses there but because thats not were the enemy was at. I can only be grateful that you people were not in charge when the Nazis were all over Europe. If it was your way this world would have been purged of all non-whites and full of facism because you dont want to get invovled.

[eric710221]

We didn't get involved until Pearl Harbor.

[warcraft1920]

Are you sure about that? America moving its naval power from San Fransisco to Hawaii was a big military move. Stopping resorces from getting to Japan from our bases in the S.E Asia was also a big move. Selling weapons almost always to the brittish was also a big move. I am sorry we were invovled in WW2 long before Pearl Harbor.

[ferrozm]

You are right. Intervention did cause WW2 proving our argument right. Sure we had no choice but to get involved in WW2 only because Woodrow Wilson laid the foundation for WW2 by intervening in WW1. Our interventionist policies have laid the foundation for the Mujahadine.

[warcraft1920]

What? WW2 was happening before we got involved. WW1 happened because the German sent a message to Mexico attack us but it was intercepted by the British. At the time we were practicing the complete free market shit Ron Paul preaches. Let me ask you do you believe that Germany or Japan would have stopped? You think with just America left they would have just stopped? Germany turned on Russia after they signed a peace treaty with them. You need to take classes on human psychology.

[sarjil]

yes guess why germany turned on russia?, cuz russia would have turned on germany by 1943-44 according to stalin and his military planners. and yes they would have been stopped regardless, cuz once russia was in in the long run the germans would have an armstice as their best choice without american involvement.

[warcraft1920]

Bullshit. Russia at the time was more worried about Japan. Their elite Siberian unites (which they used in Stalingrade) Were deployed in thier east waiting for Japan. You say they would have been stopped anyways? You dont know that. In the start of WW2 it looked like the German army was invincible. And everyone knows war is unpredictible.

[ferrozm]

You're a stupid ass we were not practicing free markets in that period we had the FED at that time, which is the only reason we're able to launch these wars. What did you expect the germans to do when Woodrow Wilson was arming the british the enemies of the germans DUMB SHIT. As for Germany turning on Russia intervening in WW1 was one of the main reasons why the bolsheviks won so intervention brought us the USSR. Keep debating me so i can educate you more

[warcraft1920]

Your a fucking dumb shit. We have been practicing free market since this country began douche bag. Keep debating you so that way you can educate me. How about this. The USSR formed because of protest to WW1 dumbshit. Its why Russia ducked out as we came in. The USSR formed in opposition to the czars war. Nice try but your just one of many retards schooled by your truly.

[ferrozm]

And what was one of the Czar's war cunt? WW1! you fucking idiot. So the Bolsheviks promised to get them out of those wars. You can't win a war in Afghanistan because we are not fighting a war we are nation building and the more we stay there the stronger al quaeda gets. You can't win an occupation. You are still wrong about us having free markets.

[warcraft1920]

I am right about the free market retard. Its why we had a depression in the 1930s. When we tried to let the market correct itself and look what happened. Over 10 years of depression. God your such a fool. When people talk about the failure of the American education system they are talking about you. We won in Iraq dumb shit. So I guess you can win an occupation. ANd the Czar and his family were killed because of WW1. People were pissed at them. Is it considered abuse for me to keep owning you?

[ferrozm]

Wrong again dickhead. The federal reserve caused the easy money and malinvestment of the stock leading to the collapse. The new deal is what made the depression last 10 years. if Iraq is won why do we have a huge fucking military base there? Dumb shit go kill your self so people don't become reading your stupid bullshit.

[warcraft1920]

The new deal? That shit has been debunked like 1000 times. Its nothing but a bunch of right wing people trying to blame a democrat over a rep. Why do we have huge military bases there? Mmmm by that logic we are still at war with Germany, Japan, N. Korea. Dont you think this debate is one sided. I mean here I am owning you at every turn. I feel like I am punching a baby. But ok I can keep owning you like this if you want.

[kmg501]

Debunked? No, I'm sorry but the person who is locked in a partisan mindset is clearly you. It saddens me greatly that we will be in the same position as 1930's Germany within a year all because of a prevailing attitude that adamantly & defiantly denies the economic history lessons of the past. I wonder when that point finally comes will you be able to finally admit to yourself that you are just as wrong as the conservatives that backed Bush and the Iraq invasion. Ego and arrogance...

[RedShirtArmy]

The Empire itself makes us less safe. The 800 foreign military bases, the worthless paper currency the Fed prints, the torture, the imperialism, the regulations and restrictions on our God-given natural rights, etc. In short, we need to get rid the Feds out of our lives completely. When Washington, DC is reduced to the middle-sized ghetto in a swamp that it truly is and no longer tries to rule the world, we´ll all be far better off.

[steve0281]

Technically, the UN is still at war with the DPRK.  There was never a peace treaty signed, just a cease fire.

[steve0281]

No. Germany offered a military alliance with Mexico IF the US were to get involved in the war. Germany did not "tell" Mexico to attack. And we were most emphatically not practicing free market capitalism then. The free market provides the most stringent controls on economic behavior known. You do not have any idea on how it works.

[sarjil]

so america moved her naval forces against japan and stopped oil flow from the indochinas to japan. Hmmmmm, just a thought maybe that's why they attacked pearl harbour. so maybe they weren't idiots on a rampage!!!!

[steve0281]

So then, according to your definition, we are at war with Cuba and any other country we sanction? Admittedly a case can be made for that on a certain level, but that is not the same as shooting people. And if we were so involved with WWII, why were we sucker punched?

[warcraft1920]

Because we were so invovled with WW2 is we were attacked. Sucker punched? Please the gov. knew there was going to be an attack they just thought it would only be in the philipines. And no in WW1 the message to Mexico was to attack America. They assumed with the American public already calling for war that war with America was inevitable. And we were practicing free market then as we are now. It is you who dosent understand it. Free market creates poverty and class warfare.

[steve0281]

We were attacked because Japan thought we would get involved. If they did not attack, we would not have been involved.

There are currently in excess of 70K pages of regulations on the books in the US on business. That is decidedly not a free market. Your grasp of basic definitions of simple terms in the English language leaves something to be desired.

I am sending you the contents of the Zimmerman telegram. Nowhere does it say to attack.

[utubehayter]

A poor man being free to do whatever it is he is able to - apparently makes him poor - despite his intentions and attempts on the contrary. It is only when a few people decide for him - what he can and cannot do - is when this poor guy will be better off.

Moral of the story - the poor = the fools. Lets take care of them - by denying them opportunities.

[whoo689]

Oh, come now. You neocons and Bushites always try to be all intellectual by comparing the war on terror to world war 2. THERE IS NO COMPARISON! There are no Axis Powers nowadays. There is no leader nearly as capable or powerful as Hitler. Hitler actually led an entire nation and conquered other nations with an army. What does bin Laden have but 1000s of people that look up to him, a terrorist mind, and millions of dollars? Don't compare 2 things are totally different. That's absurd.

[kmg501]

I respectfully disagree Warcraft. International affairs are a chess game and we have been checkers for decades. This is due to a misplaced sense that we are the good guys no matter what, this is because arrogance of bureaucrats. You see the same thing in our domestic policies, most of which are unconstitutional. Our insane energy policies are one of the factors driving this, the other is the Military Industrial Complex. I'm a former neocon. I learned my lesson. Now I'm with the Ron Paul's.

[warcraft1920]

I never said we were always right. But the point of a government is to protect its people. You Ron Pauls want to do that but are a bit nieve. You think that by pulling out we will have solved the problem. Theres this little human trait called revenge.

[kmg501]

Revenge is a product of us involving ourselves in ways we should not be in the first place, but allow me to explain better. Many of these tin pot nations deliberately maneuver us as a means for them to dig themselves out of their own woes and we fall for it all the time. Watch or read about the movie; The Mouse That Roared, we keep falling for that very same mouse roar. North Korea has been pulling the exact same maneuver. There are times to intervene but too often we are suckered into it.

[warcraft1920]

It dosent matter for what reason we are there. The point is we were and are there. That means we have pissed off alot of people. Alot of religous people. And everyone knows religion can hold a grudge for a long fucking time. The point is we have to fight them now. They have already said to pay America back they will have to kill 4 million of us.

[kmg501]

Of course it matters why were are there.. And do you think there is any rational way to deal with people who are using a nonsensical religion as their guide? Have you ever asked yourself why it seems to be a cultural mindset for middle eastern people to tell lies that are so patently false that they are laughable? You can not do business with people that use a frame of reference that is incomprehensible to you. You think that anti war people aren't being rational, the reality is that we woke up.

[warcraft1920]

Yeah and then I realize that Christians in America do the same shit. You live in a bubble. You think the non-violant ways of MLK or Guandi can work in these places. It cant. There are some people you just need to kill. Leaving these places now can make the world a very bad place. Take a look at history. Germany 1932 China 1940s Vietnam and Cambodia. History has show then when areas become destabalized people like Mao, Hiter and Pol POt arise.

[kmg501]

You only use violence against an enemy when that is your last choice. That is the fundamental issue that seems to repeatedly escape you. I was for going into Iraq but it was so badly mismanaged that we lost nearly all international political support. Our coalition was built on a house of cards. Look man, there comes a time to grow up and admit that you're wrong. We were wrong to go into Iraq and we used bad strategy in going into Afghanistan. I'm not anti war, I'm anti stupid.

[warcraft1920]

I have said 3 or 4 times on these comments that going into Iraq was wrong. And I know the strategy was flawed. That dosent mean we should not have attacked the people that attacked us. And violance dosent have to be a last choice when dealing with these kinds of people when they attack you.

[sarjil]

you see history is perpetuatal in motion, since there is always gong to be bad places present in all times, it makes no sense for us to get involved everywhere all the time, unless we wanna piss ppl off and overextend ourselves. hsitory also teaches that most conflicts does not effect every1 hence no reason for us to fuck ourselves over who rule sin afghanistan. and also preventing historical events from taking place is very hard with even worse consequence, and bound to fail while overectended.

[steve0281]

Part of the problem is that US civil servants don't follow the Constitution. If they bring it up they are told to "obey now, grieve later." 99% of the time if the subject of the Constitution is brought up eyes roll and people sigh. I hope to see these traitors to their oaths brought to justice during my life time.

[sarjil]

1.yes, as we all know you are one of tjose person who goes on crusading againts bad people even if bad people doesn't effect you personally. 2. As we also kno all bad people are nazis and of nazis calibre in threat. like bin laden, who has technology that is 10-50 years in advance of US tech, world's greatest scientists, revolutionary military doctrine, uber educated populace . Oh wait! he doesn't infact it's the opposite. 3rd. non-whites supported hitler mostly against euro colonial masters.

[warcraft1920]

His tech may be far behind ours but he dosent need it. Its not hard to walk into a building or school and kill dozens of people. When it comes to our country they pose no real threat. But they can kill dozens of people. And you say lets not go after them. Let see if you say that if I murder your family. Hey dont come after me. Just forget I am not worth the trouble.

[sarjil]

so let's spend trillions of dollars, alienate the rest of the world, creat a police state where neigbours snitch on neighbours, reate real eneity for decades becuz some civvies are gonna die, as we all know discoheques and pizzrias are america's nerve center both fianncial and military. it's a criminal act, no need to draw a gun out to shoot at flies.

[steve0281]

Bush has been decried as the most stupid of presidents and Obama lauded as the most intelligent. If so, then why is Obama, the bright one, continuing the policies of Bush, the not so bright? Just when is this increadible intellect going to kick in and save the world?

[warcraft1920]

You are dissing Obama for continuing a war that in the last poll 50% of Americans approve. Obama has changed MUCH of what Bush did. You people are like children you want everything now. You dont fuck things up this badly and think it can be turned around in just a couple weeks. You people are just as bad as the far right or left.

[sarjil]

1. really, ok say what has he changed in substance. 2. guess what it cant be turned around now anywhere so why not cut our losses and get out. 3. given that it seems to me that we have gotten real good at fucking things up, i don't know maybe we should stop doing what we fuck up at, just a thought.

[warcraft1920]

Are you lokking at only at overseas policy or both demestic and overseas. If your looking at it as a whole hes changed a shit load. There were even articals mocking him cause they said he was changing so much so fast. Cut our losses. I see the type of person you are. Kick it down the road and lets cross that bridge when we come to it. Stop doing what were doing now can make things worse down the road.

[sarjil]

no, domestically speaking what has he changed, outside of ratcheting up of former bush policies. all the major policy action has been same ol same only in bigger degree and more pomp. 2nd, i am a sane person who realizes that i have nothing to gain from figthing hobos on the street and if i fight all the hobos in the world i'd be very tired and worn down to really fight when i need to.

[steve0281]

Six months ago nearly 80% wanted out. Did not Obama endorse that position? I seem to remember he did. In the meantime Obama endorses increasing domestic spying by targetting the whole country. But don't worry; the information collected won't be used against you, unless they want to use it against you. Some "change."

[warcraft1920]

Your talking about the Iraq war. If you listened to Obama during his run for the whitehouse (which you obviously didnt) he said numerous times he would increase troops in Afg.

[steve0281]

I listened to him plenty. Yes, I thought you were citing Iraq. My apologies. He still is doing nothing to address the so-called "stupid" policies of Bush. The reason why is that he agrees with them. Again; when is this intellect of his going to kick in?

[RealArcalian]

A good friend of mine thinks that yeah, the war was wrong, but now we have to keep interrogating/torturing "so they won't nuke San Francisco."

I feel old. I feel tired. I feel tired of trying to reason with people. Not beause they have no reason, but because they do have it, but won't use it.