Riz Khan - What do Muslims want? - 25 Feb 09 - Part 2

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Hamad of God, prayer and peace upon the Messenger of God, but after;

At a time when Christians meet the cunning world of Islam and Muslims, and their union to discredit them at all levels and by all means, so much so that they met up for that in the complex regional in Jakarta (1967),

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), which was held for the signing of a pact between all the communities of the alliance to face the Muslim word one in the meetings and international forums, After all this but it does not recognize the legitimacy of a range of them the other community, they are what they are cursed from each other an extension of the ancestor in that year neoplasms

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Despite the invitation to all Christians, Muslims and naive Mgvlehm of meetings of the dialogue of religions, and advocating open the door for dialogue between the various denominations, but it was not possible for a range of them to engage in dialogue with her sister in cases

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of Christianity that made each of them a curse of her sister, until these issues are red lines that can not be touched some of them, however, was the inevitable fate is tempted to call into question any of them; to curse and cursed those who tried it before, and history of the church is known in it.

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Red lines between the denominations of Christianity

[zafthedon]

I forigive you for your ignorance - I also forgive you for your lack of knowlegde as the Quran (transltion)

"2-120-"Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah."

[zafthedon]

with 1 quote I'll debunk all from your own bible that Jesus pbuh is NOT God

Mark 13:32 - "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Jesus pbuh does not know the hour - he is not all knowing - God is - therefore Jesus pbuh is not God - one quote and I have plenty if you want to play that game.

Jesus pbuh - is the messiah/prophet to Isreal/born of a virgin birth/did mircales BUT is NOT GOD.

[guppy0720]

"Mark 13:32 - "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

The Father is a separate person in the Tri-unity of God. The Father is spirit, light and truth. The Son is the exact image of God and personality, Jesus said he is truth and life, he is the visible form of God. Doesn't mean he knows the same knowledge as the Father. This is unique in all theologies, who are you to say it's not possible, puny little earth man.

[guppy0720]

Chill...........out....

[zafthedon]

The whole concept of the trinity is nowhere to be found in the bible:) - so you need the mysterious trinity to explain that verse - sounds very un monothestic.

[zafthedon]

there are also a few problems with this and I'm sure you know the verses

1 - nobody can see God and live - therefore people saw Jesus pbuh he is not God again

2 - God is all knowing - If God is all knwoing he cannot become less knowing as God does not need to learn - Jesus pbuh did - God is all knowing - its not unique its heavily flawed.

3 - Image of God???? read the 10 commandemnts with this one otherwise you violate the commandments.

[guppy0720]

Reply to 1

John 1:18

No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

So if Jesus has seen God wouldn't that make him an eternal spirit, God's Son, since no one can see God and live ?

[zafthedon]

made him known is very different from seeing - nowhere does it say he saw God. Moses pbuh knew God does that make Moses pbuh God?

[guppy0720]

John 6:46

No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

[guppy0720]

John 5:19

Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Jesus saw the Father even while on earth. No prophet could do this.

[guppy0720]

John 3:13

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jesus said he came from heaven, the only one who has been to heaven. Meaning he is God's only Son.

[zafthedon]

again You need get this right Jesus pbuh is not saying that - tahts what John is saying.

[zafthedon]

test

[zafthedon]

so If Jesus was God - why did the people who saw him drop dead - as no human can see God and live?

[guppy0720]

No one has seen the Father, no one may see the invisible Father, pure light and live. Jesus hid his glory so he could exist on earth. But he did at times turn into spirit to get out of being caught by the Pharisees. Even Moses saw God and lived, so did Jacob he wrestled with God ! But they wrestled with the Son of God. Because no one could wrestle with the spirit Father and live.

[guppy0720]

You should watch this video by a Christian Jew explaining the Trinity in the Old and New Testaments.

watch?v=cJvUlrNa-Z8

[zafthedon]

lets take it to the next level if humans can see Jesus pbuh and live then Jesus pbuh is definitly not God - otherwise you have 2 Gods here Jesus 1 that everyine can see and the other God Father that nobody can see and live? Your getting into a lot of mess with this - very flawed reasoning indeed.

[guppy0720]

The Father is the invisible form of God, the Son is the visible and the Holy Spirit is God's spirit who is invisible.

God exists in the heavens, but also inside a believer of his Son. It is an example of his omni-present nature.

I don't think anybody truly understands it. The Godhead is the word the Bible uses for God-plural (Eloh-im). God or the Godhead, you could say is a family, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One Godhead, all have the same nature of God sinless, eternal.

[guppy0720]

Yet all are distinctly separate people who obey the will of the Father in all things.

Everything comes from the Father. The Son and Holy Spirit do everything he commands.

Very hard to understand. But we are talking about the nature and personage of God.

[guppy0720]

Point 2

The Father is all knowing who is God. Jesus was the image of the Father, the unseen, pure light, almighty God ! Jesus added humanity to his deity so he became not all knowing, relying on his Father for everything. He gained wisdom by experiencing humanity personally, God is infinite, yet he never truly understood us, without experiencing the human body for himself.

[zafthedon]

here "Matthew's Gospel is probably based on the testimony of Jesus's disciple Matthew, and John's Gospel on the testimony of the disciple John. This doesn't necessarily mean that it was Matthew and John who wrote them down in the final form they've come to us in. In fact, in the case of John's Gospel, there's internal evidence that this isn't what happened." - this is form another source - as i said do some serious research.

[zafthedon]

This whole thing started with you being corrected of what a Quranic verse meant - that in its own shows how much you know. - which is very little. Your arrognace is also unreal - your not a scholar that can make an educated decision - so far you've only given pure broing christain interpretations - nothing to do with your own thinking.

[oratorspeaker]

what muslims want? everything

[studer3500]

dawoudii - as usual people like you are living in cloud cuckooland. Nothing belongs to you, you came empty handed and that's how you will go. You people are very gullible and dimwitted and ultimately you will destroy yourselves. Read Dr Ali Sina's website called faithfreedomdotORG that will enlighten you and give up all your hate for other cultures.

[zafthedon]

004.157

YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

ps - learn arabic next time you just made a fool out of yourself.

[guppy0720]

You didn't disprove me though........... : ~

[zafthedon]

just did in "Boast" - they said it in mockery as a joke mockingly. - Its a very old claim and your very late wth it - most people that have no idea about the difference between translation and the the Quran make it most of the time.

[guppy0720]

Boasting is used normally to mock people. The question is did they know he was the Messiah or not ? Also if you take it that way, why does the Quran not say Son of God, why Son of Mary ? The Jews knew very well that Jesus said he is the Messiah and equal with God as God's Son...... so if your going to mock you would call him Son of God. Like the Jews did in the Bible, they mocked him by calling him the King of the Jews, because the Messiah was thought to be an earthly King of Israel.

[guppy0720]

Destroying all the enemies of Israel, bringing world peace forever.

Jesus will do all this later in his second coming, as King of Israel, when the arabs almost wipe out the entire Jewish people and nation.

The Bible gives a much more likely account of what really happened, since it was written by the people who witnessed the events, or at least live close to Jesus time.

[guppy0720]

Also the verse attributes something to God which is not in his nature to do. That is put the likeness of Jesus on someone else, thereby using deceit to trick the Jew's and Christians into believing he died.

Deceit is not a Holy attribute so it's not likely an accurate account either of the events.

[zafthedon]

there's no deciet what so ever - simple because the didnt kill Jesus pbuh end of story - the christians need to believe that Jesus pbuh died on the cross so they can go to heaven - if he didnt die then they have a problem because the death sacrifice was meant to be atonemnet for there sins.

I can give videos to watch that can historcially (through the Jewish tradition) prove that the whole crucifxtion thing is higly unlikely

/watch?v=sglz_6HxZ9I watch?v=RgrOe_kLUy8&feature=ch­annel

[guppy0720]

"there's no deciet what so ever - simple because the didnt kill Jesus pbuh end of story"

All the accounts of the Bible confirm he did die, Jesus knew he was going to die, he repeated it often........ saying I am just about to be crucified so the scriptures (Old Testament) will be fulfilled. The Old Testament contains prophecies that Jesus was going to die for our sins.

[zafthedon]

man I thought you were somebody serious - your just giving me a single account of the bible now - The bible is made up 73/66 books depedning on the catholics and prosetant split - they were not the only books in circulation - many other books were also in circulation too - the church just picked specific books to suite there own theology - ultimatley 300 years of no offical canon had led to confusion so they had to surpress the others - many have not yet been found yet.

[guppy0720]

Seems your the one out of your depth. Have you ever just read the Bible and made up your own mind. That is what i'm doing. I just mentioned the facts about what historians have said. When you actually read the Bible you realise it is consistent across all the prophets. Jesus life was written in the Old Testament. And Jesus did certain acts and miracles which were mirror images of what the prophets did. So the Bible is safe guarded against peoples accusations of corruption.

[guppy0720]

People can make accusations against it. But the proofs are so obvious that the accusations are totally without foundation. Just random conspiracy theories, I mean many people actually believed Dan Brown's conspiracy theory. When you realise it's based on a painting made in the 16 century it has no basis. Likewise the Quran has almost nothing in common with Judaism/Christianity, what happened to the Sabbath ? The Quran has more in common with the Meccan Pagan religions than the God of the Bible.

[guppy0720]

To give you some idea of the knowledge I have attained to be qualified to make an educated assessment of the Quran and Bible:

I have read 2 biographies on Muhammad iwth many passages of the Quran explained, over 100 hadith including the 40 qudsi, and many verses of the Quran from Alim software to understand their meanings.

From the Bible I read the books, Genesis, Exodus, parts of Leviticus and Numbers, parts of proverbs, psalms, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Micah. I have the books of Mark,

[guppy0720]

Edit (cont) I have read the entire books of the NT of Mark, Matthew, John, Peter, 1,2 John, Revelation a few times. Parts of Romans, Corinthians, Galatians.

So I know a fair bit of the real stories of the Bible and Quran from trustworthy authentic traditions of both religions. So no bias for either one. And my thoughts are Jesus is the Son of God he is eternally equal with God. The Quran is a cheap rip off the Bible, the Jews tested Muhammad's knowledge of the prophets, and his excuse..

[guppy0720]

for not knowing it was that it has been changed and this is the undefined version of God's word. But if God's word can be defiled is there really any guarantee that the Quran won't be or has been corrupted ? And someone else can say later I have the undefiled version of God's word, the answer is no.

All the prophets tried to set up God's law, a Kingdom of God on earth. Jesus said he came for the true Kingdom which was a spiritual Kingdom, because all leaders of Israel were corrupt in some way.

[guppy0720]

Jesus will return to earth to be ruler of Israel forever, destroying all of Israel's enemies.

Micah 5

2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans [b] of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins [c] are from of old, from days of eternity"

Jesus was the promised Messiah who was born in Bethlehem Ephrathah he was born of a virgin, this prophecy states Jesus is eternal, equal with God.

[guppy0720]

Even the Quran admits Jesus was not born from a human coupling. Meaning Jesus was the only one ever to be born directly from God. Otherwise where did his DNA come from ? So this is consistent with Christianites original sin doctrine (inherited sinful nature). Jesus was not born with this nature, the only one not born with the sinful nature.

[guppy0720]

John 10

11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

[guppy0720]

17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

So Jesus knew exactly what must be done, he must willfully give his life for us to save us from hell (suffering for our sins).

[guppy0720]

Do have the things of God or men in mind ?

Mark 8

Jesus Predicts His Death

31He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

[guppy0720]

33But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

So Jesus called people who didn't believe that he died followers of Satan, remind you of anyone ????

[zafthedon]

LOL - your missing Adam pbuh he didnt ahve a mother or a father - does that make a son of God - give me a break. You also sound like a christain the more I read your posts - if you are use your brain it might get you somehwere.

[guppy0720]

" your missing Adam pbuh he didnt ahve a mother or a father "

Adam was created from clay. Jesus wasn't. Adam sinned and so does every man, Jesus didn't sin.

Big difference.

I am Christian btw.

[zafthedon]

mark said that - not Jesus pbuh.

[zafthedon]

The rest are old and dull christain remarks which actually shwos you have used your brain but followed you christain pals with blind faith - aso it would realy be a wate of time replying to the rest - so far not realy impressed at all.

Juts end this with Jesus pbuh didnt say anything in the bible instead mark, matthew, paul and rest said it - are the prophets?

[zafthedon]

You didnt even know who Bart Ehramna was? you didnt even know the arabic of the Quran> you have have no clue about cross exmainig scripture and lastly you dont have zero oral tradition which puts more doubts on the nt. The only thing you have tested is christainty and you also represent that badly - I could say the same thing the NT is no more then a few books written by normal men - not prophets and thats what you follow normal men.

[zafthedon]

Pity your knwolegde is so weak that you can actually put it into a youtuve texts - that just shows that your not educuted enough - For goodness sake you didnt even know what the verse meant - which shows your poor understanding of Islamic theology -

[zafthedon]

LOL - nobody is talking about Dan Brown - I'm talking about biblical scholar BART EHRAMN. Not some story a biblical scholar.

[guppy0720]

It was an example of how weak yours/ and many others conspiracy theories are. They have no foundation. Didn't you understand ??? I forgive you, we all make mistakes.

[zafthedon]

my friend do something called cros exmanition - thats what muslims do - cross exmaine specific sitiutions in each gospel and they clearly contradict each other - as i said before the bible was put togather years after christ - 300 years after - there were other gospels around - As you like bringing the OT up go and ask the Jews (whos book it is) if any prophecies were actually fufiled - you juts gave me a purely christain explanation - that has nothing to do with you thinking what so ever.

[guppy0720]

"there's no deciet what so ever"

Deceit means:

Any attempt or disposition to deceive or lead into error; any declaration, artifice, or practice, which misleads another, or causes him to believe what is false; a contrivance to entrap; deception; a wily device; fraud; Any trick, collusion, contrivance, false representation, or underhand ...

Since the Quran said it was made to look like Jesus died that is "false representation" it is deceit, plain and simple.

[zafthedon]

where? does it say that:)

1 - the disciple ran away when Jesus pbuh was on the cross - so you realy having nothing but conjucture as the verse says - furthermore it appeard simply means that the people wanted to believe that Jesus pbuh died - like yourslef - which is preety shocking as you want Jesus to die on a cross so you can go to heaven. Realy unjust act.

[guppy0720]

By the way you didn't answer well enough to excuse the use of deceit by Allah.

[zafthedon]

I just did thats why you wont dare to quote the verse - this an old missionery trick - maybe you need to do some serious research rather then just the usual christain talk - which is what you are giving so far

Last but not least go and research Bart Ehramn - which you completely missed out. The problem is open - your own scholars are showing the holes of christainty - nobody has to do anything.

Jesus pbuh is mere man nothing more nothing less - he cant do anything without God anyway.

[guppy0720]

"Jesus pbuh is mere man nothing more nothing less - he cant do anything without God anyway."

Rephrase that: He couldn't do anything without his Father and Spirit. Because they are one.

I can't get over how angry you sound take a walk or something.

[zafthedon]

Not realy angry but once again you miss Bart Ehramn out and my questions :) about Moses? pity realy.

[zafthedon]

Why would he do that when the "Isrealites" rejected him and still do today - they dont even believe in him - only the people who believe in him.

secodnaly the bible was written 300 years after christ by normal men like John, matthew, mark etc who did not meet Jesus including Paul - thes guys were not prophets they were normal men writing about what they "believed" happend they defintly didnt meet Jesus pubh - did you know that other canons were around before 300AD? The bible came way later.

[guppy0720]

The gospel accounts were likely written, scholars say about 50 AD about 14 years after Jesus died.

The way the text writes is just like someone reported exactly the conversations Jesus had with everyone. Actually the whole Bible is written like that.

So your assumptions are in error.

[zafthedon]

bible scholars vary in when the first gospel was written - matthew being the first - you seriouslyout your depth saying that "the whole bible is like that" everyone knows that the gospels contradict each other - so your assumption is wrong. Furthermore the "bible" didnt exist until 300 AD before then everyone had there own canons - there was no official canon.

whats even more shcking is that some scholars believe that the gosples were written by unknown authors like hebrews.

[guppy0720]

"I said: The way the text writes is just like someone reported exactly the conversations Jesus had with everyone. Actually the whole Bible is written like that."

I am talking about the style of writing about the events in the Bible. That is what is consistent. All in the third person, with the exact verbal exchanges that happened. e.g God said this, then Moses replied that..... like I said your ignorance is shockingly high and you claim to know better, haha.

[zafthedon]

Your possibly the most ignorant christain have talked and i have talked to many - what about Moses being buried? why is that in the 5 so called books of Moses? how can those be the 5 books of moses pbuh when his burial is being described????

[guppy0720]

Your assuming again. What are we talking about ?

[guppy0720]

"secodnaly the bible was written 300 years after christ by normal men like John, matthew, mark etc who did not meet Jesus "

Your ignorance is astounding. Matthew, Mark and John were Jesus disciples you idiot. You have so many misinformed idea's I don't know where to start.

[guppy0720]

What about the books of James, Jesus brother, and Peter ? All witnesses to the events.

I noticed you didn't reply to the Micah 5 prophecy either.....

[zafthedon]

LOL! You idiot everybody knows matthew , mark, John and Luke were not disciples you idiot - they all got there work second hand dont you even know that - do you even know what some scholars say abot these gospels - some scholars even believe that matthew,mark, Luke and John were written by unknown authors - furthermore do some more research about the Q gospel.

[guppy0720]

You are funny, I am laughing at you, not with you:

Matthew 10 2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

[guppy0720]

John 12

23Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

[zafthedon]

Jesus pbuh is the son of mary - not the son of God - he even gives a great reply to the Jews when they ask him why he calls himslef the son of God - nothing whats so ever to do with divinty - Jews didnt know very well that he was equal with God - thats what the NT says - are you reading the Quran or the bible? dont egt condused with both books.

Yes we believe Jesus pbuh is the messiah and will be back in the second comming.

[zafthedon]

The question isnt if they knew Jesus pbuh was the messiah - the question is if the believed he was - the answer to that is no - so they mockingly boasted that they killed him was to mock his followers as if they did a great job. Still from today the Jews dont believe Jesus bpuh do be the messiah.

[guppy0720]

I admitted the possibility of your interpretation, no need to be so rude. Can't we talk like adults here.

[putolinefourstroke]

i fuckin hate muslims

[legalrule]

What do muslims want?

The want to flog a old great grandmother today in arabia! Arabia the holder of true islam and the true followers of pure islam! Flog and old lady bc she asked two of her dead husbands business partners to bring her some bread to eat!!

Can you imagine that! A god that wants an old lady to die rather than having two young men bring her some bread!!

You muslims are the sick, degenerate sons and daughters of whore pigs!! The true religion! Yes of SATAN!!!

[phicubed]

Riz Khan--pro.

[Emyousmusa]

I can care less what prophets said to one or all religons, people should be honest in how they treat, what they want, from other peoples, and not use prophets or religon to justifiy personal prejudices against others.

Common sense, a sensable person, a realistic being, I see and reasearch as much as I can, and see the bais more purpetuated in the western powerhouse of media outlets.

[Descendone]

The fact that even more Muslims didnt approve of attacks on US occupying soldiers is a cause of concern. There is nothing wrong but in fact it is a right for all occupied and oppressed people to resist the US Army which is attacking and killing Muslims.

How would Americans vote if another people occupied or attacked them they would be 100% behind killing the enemy. It's common sense.

[mouf21]

haha the look from that guest on the right when the caller was arguing that 9/11 was an inside job was priceless. But in truth, many Muslims believe that 9/11 was an Inside Job, al Jazeera even did a poll recently confirming this. I even saw books in Arabic about the Illuminati and stuff

[dawoudii]

we want occupied jerusalem and al aqsa and dome of rock and its precincts back.end of israeli occupation.our right to shariat law and end of secularism.islamic democracy =good, kufr,shirksecularism=haram.get out of mecca and madinatunebi with ur pro-zionists mcdonalds and cola and the like and dont impose ur culture on us.stop helping anti-islamic dictators in our countries...thats what we want....the rest is harmony and peace.....

[mouf21]

"Pity the nation that welcomes its new ruler with trumpetings,

and farewells him with hooting,

only to welcome another with trumpetings" Khalil Gibran.

I too am against what the Americans and israelis are doing but do you really think having an islamic country is the answer? Like who? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Secularism is not the problem, power is. If u give religious fundementalists power, they will be as oppressive as Arab dictators or Western powers.

[AlicBA]

''What do Muslims want?''

There are well over 1 billion Muslims in the world so ask all of them what they want and then you will have the answer.

[489222]

Let's be clear people - the problem is Islam, the religion and ideology of hate, not the people.

Any human being can be prey to lies. The only mistake of most people called Muslims is to be born in a Muslim nation where everything begins and ends with the terrorist religion. It is like growing up in Nazi Germany - the only thing you hear and see is Hitler and his criminal band. So you have no choice.

Focus on killing the evil ideology that poisons the hearts of people.

[mouf21]

that's a very weird statement.. first of all wana kill the ideology? stop killing people. Islamic fundamentalism thrives on Western oppresion and imperialism (with what is happening in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan , lebanon etc.. how can u not see where Extremism comes from)

And secondly, religions are not violent, people are. Although there are some violent passages in the Koran, there are many 2 in the Bible (stoning of people, genocide of the Canaanites etc...)

[spikesmth]

GWB= Child throwing rocks at bee hive! Why did he have to make them so angry at us!? I believe in Obama, he's not perfect, but we've given him the chance, I hope he's ambitious enough to seize it!

[FATBOITHEREAL]

he is a puppet look at he speach he made at apaik. look at wat he did with the bailout. he is paid for by the jewish international bankers

[LILUCKSMO80]

these two guest are pay by the CIA to lie about these so call survey which are pay to look real fake report 911 was a inside job come how ? can so call terroism attack the USA !!!!!