You can watch the whole thing ***It is a long criticism of religion*** but it doesn't change this line about "those desert tribes". And who those desert tribes are. And what he says about them. The desert tribes that came up with the 10 commandments and organise their life by them, can only be the Jews. Not Christians who came later, and don't think the law counts. Anyway. Jews *ARE* tribes and to this day are.
Yes his talk before and after is criticising religion generally. But this line is against jews, and is not just criticism, it's slander. Jews have caused more misery for mankind than any other group!!!!!! and doing it to this day!! Most of mankind are Christians and Muslims. He's not talking about most of mankind doing things. He's talking a group of desert tribes doing things. And yes you're right, Jews are still tribes. Muslims and Christians aren't.
And if you think it means ANY desert tribes. It doesn't. He's referring to the desert tribes that came up with them. In the rest of the clip he is just criticising religion generally. Not Jews. But in this line, he is criticising Jews. As I said.
@Sboy200 The greater context-that it was after or around the time of a debate about the catholic church, does not affect what he said in this line at all. It's totally clear from the clip that here he is talking about the 10 commandments, and a group of desert tribes.And obviously a tribe if you look it up,is -a tribe-He also lists the 10 commandments, which isn't shown and just isn't relevant. You can watch the whole thing but it doesn't change this line about "those desert tribes"
So, he says jews are "DOING IT" to this day (storing up more misery for mankind than any other people). What are Jews today doing to do that? And he says in history, More misery for mankind. Mankind is mostly Christian and Muslim. And it's clear which desert tribes this self hating jew meant
This is absolutely disgusting, blaming jews for more misery than any other people AND then he says TO THIS DAY!!! this man drips anti-semitism. A self hating Jew par excellance.
I do not know what vendetta the author of this video has against Stephen Fry, I can only assume it's a difference of Theological opinion. But it's evident that this video was not mistitled mistakenly - it's a conscious lie and nobody watching it appears to have been fooled for a moment.
This video is an epic fail. How is anything Fry said related to the Jews as a RACE? He's talking about the absolutists dogma of religion, so fuck off.
You're an epic fail. What part of THOSE DESERT TRIBES or GROUP OF PEOPLE don't you understand? A reference to that is a reference to PEOPLE. He criticises dogma too but this line he criticizes TRIBES you don't understand tribes are PEOPLE, You are an epic fail!
Stephen Fry is not Jewish. He's atheist. This clip was taken for the debate he and Chritsopher Hitchens had regarding the catholic church. The title of this video is a disgrace.
READ, look a few comments earlier where the context is mentioned. Maybe you should tell Fry he is not jewish, it'd be news to him, he is a member of JFJFP and IJV. And many of his relatives were murdered in the holocaust. Jews, are a people, some religious, some not, some believers, some not. Stop being so ignorant.
The context was the 10 commandments. Criticising that is criticising the Bible, Judaism or Christianity. That was what was before and after. But in the middle of it, he said -this line-. Which doesn't just criticise, but -slanders- "Those Desert Tribes" that came up with the 10 commandments / organised their society around them. that's a people he's talking about. And he says in history, so throughout history , and he says "To This Day". So Jews today too.
@boliusb "Those desert tribes" refers to the Jews at the time, not Jews today, and yes the Jews then were barbaric. Calling murder, sexism, slavery etc immoral doesn't make him an anti-semite.
See you really agree he's talking about Jews at the time, that is not Judaism,that is Jews at the time.That's criticising a people.He then goes on to say "those desert tribes" to this day.That's Jews today. And he slanders Jews with the charge of causing more misery for mankind than any other people in the history of the planet.So Jews have caused more misery than the Arabs that slaughtered millions of africans.Or the Germans or Nazis.Or any group of people. DOING IT TO THIS DAY
What, Jewish religion caused Nazism? Jews are responsible for the Nazis murdering them? Nazis murdered Jews regardless of whether they were religious or not, believers or not. Jews are responsible for the misery the Nazis unleashed onto them? Is that what you're saying? And Jews are "doing it to this day"?
It is a 20 second clip, provides no context, he is obviously speaking of the original Jewish(Abrahamic) text that would become the foundation for Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam, which he purportedly believes (I am in congruence in this belief) still oppress billions of people to this day. "Desert tribes" means the whole shabang, he isn't an anti-semite because he thinks the abrahamic religions have our world in disaray on many issues.
Look it's no big secret he is against religion. And I said about the context, can you not read a few comments ago? If you want to discuss context, reply to that. And tribes and "Group of people" Means People. And yes he hates religion. But here in this line he mentions the 10 commandments, and a group of people.Specifically the desert tribes that came up with the 10 commandments, and he says of -those people- through history and to this day.
@KogaTheThief I agree. Any desert tribes who obeyed the 10 commandments can be involved. Who else got involved in religions with "10 commandments" it isn't really 10 and he knows. He said the believings of the desert tribes. Their believings. I didn't here him refering to those who necessary came up with them, he said those who had the 10 commandments. I don't think he cares what race they'd be. He dislikes the believings. The association with race is seen by those who seek it.
Right ok I've just found the WHOLE clip. And what they were both discussing was The Ten Commandments. Stephen said that the Ten Commandments were made up by a bunch of deluded desert tribes. What he went on to say the clip above is actually saying that the Ten Commandment have caused a hell of a lot of trouble and misery for people. Search Stephen Fry Anne Widdecombe 10 commandments if you want to hear this clip in context.
No, as you see from the end of the clip, he is interrupted by Anne, and that's where his diatribe against Jews stops but he was referring to PEOPLE in that line, not the 10 commandments. Now, if you say that later he said the 10 commandments have caused more misery for people, like more misery for jews, than anything else, well, i'd like to see you quote that. But it doesn't change -this- line.
BTW The greater context-that it was after or around the time of a debate about the catholic church, does not affect what he said in this line at all. It's totally clear from the clip that here he is talking about the 10 commandments, and a group of desert tribes.And obviously a tribe if you look it up,is -a tribe-He also lists the 10 commandments, which isn't shown and just isn't relevant. You can watch the whole thing but it doesn't change this line about "those desert tribes"
@boliusb It is not clear at all from this clip that the topic of this is a discussion is The Ten Commandments. He's saying that the desert tribes created the ten commandments and therefore these people have stored a hell of a lot of trouble for many people etc. Stephen did get in to trouble for criticising the Prime Minister for forming links with Polish politicians he suspected of being anti-semitic, so I think you miss understand where his heart is here. He is criticising religion, not ppl.
He may oppose what he thinks is anti-semitism in one place, accusing(perhaps wrongly) a man of being an anti-semite(do you have a link to Fry doing that?). But Stephen Fry makes an extremely anti-semitic(or self hating or jew hating) remark here. As in, it is slander and easily justifies Jew hatred and anti-semitism, and the slander itself is something that'd come from a jew hater.
You say yourself, he is referrig to desert tribes, people.Then you say he is criticising religion not people. Make your mind up. You could say he is criticising both. So, not just religion. He is criticising people here, you say that yourself. And you understate what hte said. He didn't just say a lot of misery, he said more than any other people in the history of the planet, and -doing it to this day-.
This clip is just too short to see the point Stephen is making. Anne Widdecombe is a Catholic and the two famously debated whether christianity, and more specifically Catholisism, was a force for good in the world so maybe Stephen was attacking Catholics. I'm a fan of Stephen, he is very intelligent but also strikes me as humane and empathetic. A short clip like this doesn't alter my view of this great man.
@jamie1234591 Yes, I don't think it's anything to do with race. Whoever had the teachings that to be honest have tormented so many, and it's because it's so on gonig and long, and we can't stop it completely. Even if he points the finger a people, because it was whoever it was, it is starting with them. If it was White...etc he's not going to give a damn about the race. Religion he doesn't like, but like all do, you go to the root of the problem. It's not "Jews" it's "them who started it"
You did not even bother to check out their entire debate? It gives a much better understanding of this clip which is taken totally out of context (I sound like a theist, don't I?).
The context does not change the line, see earlier comments on context, i'll quote it for you. And as to what you think you sound like, I don't care whether you think you sound like a theist atheist or a pizza delivery man. I'm just talking about the facts.
BTW The greater context-that it was after or around the time of a debate about the catholic church, does not affect what he said in this line at all. It's totally clear from the clip that here he is talking about the 10 commandments, and a group of desert tribes.And obviously a tribe if you look it up,is -a tribe- He also lists the 10 commandments, which isn't shown and just isn't relevant. You can watch the whole thing but it doesn't change this line about "those desert tribes"
@boliusb Whilst I disagree with Stephen, the principle at work here is not limited to Jews. He's not accusing the Jews so much as accusing all 3 of the Abrahamic Religions of the world. The ten commandments are common to all 3 faiths, and all build on the original OT.
Everything you've been defending, and everything you've been railing against, is encompassed, along your own opinions, by his statement, which has nothing to do with singling out Jews no matter how badly you want it to.
Listen you vile creature, you think I -want- anti-semitism? You think I want Jews to be singled out and hated? That's like saying I -want- Jews to be shouted at from cars and attacked on the way back from school and so on, the kind of things that escalate when people believe the garbage that is spewed about Jews(or about Israel), but in this case, Fry is singling out Jews for an outrageous slander.
@boliusb No you imbecile. You maggot. You racist. You bigot.
You have misconstrued my words immediately with less time given to think about your words than it takes to copy them. You have no value to offer anyone with this level of ignorance. What you want; to vilify.
Peddle your slander elsewhere and false claims of "Oh so you think I want anti-semitism". No; You want him to be an anti-semite because it is an easy defence of a complex argument that you are ill equipped to have.
I told you. What he said was a slander against jews, which justifies anti-semitism. When people believe that it allows them to justify hating Jews, it gives them reason to shout at jews from cars and attack jewish children on their way to school. And you think I want him to be slandering Jews? and spreading his slander which could be believed by others and lead to more of that?
You believe that Jews want to be hated? for what? And you wonder why we wanted to move to Israel amongst a sea of Arabs.. You persecute Jews for thousands of years and say Jews want it!! You sick bastard
And I include sick slander against Jews, because that is what leads to anti-semitism. Verbal slanderous attacks and lies have always led on to physical ones. Mein Kampf. The protocols of the elders of zion, e.t.c. Certainly this line from Fry would've made Hitler smile.
Desist your diarrhetic outpourings. I see no value in conversing further with your level of uninformed hatred and commitment to a mistake in your understanding.
You have a deep seated hatred in your heart, and I wish no part of it. Don't include my name in your responses. Happily pound away at your keyboard telling the world how wrong I am, but I have no real desire to repeat "You still don't get it" in 100 different forms to your refusal to exercise any level of thought.
Well let's see if you're capable of a rational discourse without accusing me of wanting somebody to be an anti-semite.. a classic anti-semitic canard. Desist from that. I see you can't and won't. So no real discourse is possible with you.
And i'm not really taking issue with some kind of criticism of "Abrahamic Faiths".. I might think it's very silly, it's not a terrible thing to say. Not a dangerous slander. I'm taking issue with this line that he says here.. about the desert tribes /jews then in history and -today-.
Anti-semitic beliefs,including -yours- that I or Jews want people to hate them,the implication being that Jews are a really vile manipulative people who want to be hated so they can manpiulate non-jews that's what you believe you bastard.And onto your other point.He mentions the desrt tribes and the 10 commandments and makes a statement about the desert tribes.If he just criticised the 10 commandments,it wouldn't be singling Jews out. I'm taking issue with what he says in this line
he clearly believes jews have caused more misery -for mankind- than the germans or nazis, the arabs and all other peoples Not talking about Deuteronomy or Leviticus. Why don't you tell me how his slander is true? It's a good justification for hating Jews, that's what it is.
What Fry says is a slander. And it would be expected from a self hating jew, or anti-semite. And worse, it can easily justify jew hatred. If somebody believed Fry then one could logically say, Jew hatred throughout history is somewhat deserved considering they've caused more misery than anybody else . We'd be better off without Jews.. e.t.c. It's simply a grotesque slander that Jews have done more misery than anybody else - and today!. Arabs killed millions of africans in sudan.
Leviticus and Deuteronomy are filled with love and wisdom, if you're a psychopath who likes killing and torturing for arbitrary and trivial 'crimes'. You've got to be pretty twisted not to see his point, even if you don't entirely agree with him.
"Leviticus and Deuteronomy are filled with love and wisdom" DUDE there is much violence in the bible. Do you not understand that the thing being discussed here is not religion in general or the bible. The thing being discussed here is the line Stephen Fry says in this video. What have Jews been doing in history and today that causes more misery than all other peoples in history, tell me?
He's a Jewish Atheist. Jews are a people. This is well known. His parents are jewish, he's a member of JFJFP(jews for...) ... and the similar one IJV,.. And you're correct he's an atheist, nobody has disputed that!
@boliusb The title of the video seems to dispute it. How are we to differentiate between Jews the people and Jews the faith in writing? I could enter the Jewish faith but obviously that would not change my heritage. In this context "self-hating Jew" seems to be saying Fry is bashing his own religion.
Roughly speaking, there are religions like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, e.t.c. and then there are the people.Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs.Hitler hated Jews, he was an anti-semite par excellance i'm sure you'd agree with that.If Hitler had been Jewish, he'd still be an anti-semite,
but in those cases, of Jewish anti-semites,the term Self Hating Jew tends to be used. As in, hates other Jews. They often love themselves and think they're morally superior
it's an expression, for an anti-semite or person holding anti-semitic beliefs, e.g in this case, something that wouldn't look out of place in Mein Kampf .. but where the person is of jewish origin.
Prof. Alvin H. Rosenfeld: "Israel’s defamers and delegitimizers include large numbers of misguided Jews, manipulative Jews, malevolent Jews, and other Jews of assorted bad faith."
And why have so many such characters spread in recent decades? Because everyone is excusing every one of their shenanigans with "but they are of Jewish origin."
yep.. I was just explaining the use of the term "self hating jew" as oppose to anti-semite.. or person holding anti-semitic beliefs.. or person condemning jews by a harsher standard..they're not just ashamed, they're proud to be ashamed.. they lead the chorus of condemnation against jews,they're moralizers with a double standard. trying to gain social standing by distancing themselves, trying to save thier skin/trying to be liked by separating themselves off from the others.
so, they're basket cases, I don't think there would be a perfect term to define them, but self hating jew works.. this particular one gets there in this line by holding an anti-semitic belief, though also he's an israel bashing one also insane double standards, calls israel's independence a nakba as bad as the holocaust. But people can look up the term if they haven't heard of it. of course, it describes a reality.
I certainly wasn't justifying it in saying he was "of jewish origin". I was just stating the fact. Indeed, it is irrelevant.. Just there are some that don't even know the basic facts.
@boliusb, I guess you are right. I actually don't like the term "self-hating Jews," because whatever they are, they don't seem to hate themselves. I prefer "Jew-hating Jews" or "toads" (as Jabotinsky called them).
They are individuals, and differ somewhat among themselves. So it's hard to generalize.
however one names the syndrome, and whatever is going on with them psychologically (proud to be ashamed, trying to be liked e.t.c. they're a form of demented liberal) the crucial thing they use and rely on, is a double or triple standard. So clearly unjust. As soon as one doesn't use a double standard, the vicious slander that justifies jew hatred, doesn't work. because, we're not demons, worse than all, so demonization won't work,and the facts when dealt with fairly show that.
I'm so aware of the problem of self hating jews, I make sure that what I say and think doesn't suffer from it, I try to ensure I don't use a double standard. The crimes of our enemies and others, in declared intention or deed, are so bad, that any attempt to moralise should if we're aware of the facts, turn against them. Arabs besides intending on genocide of Jews in 1948 and '67 and '73 and it goes on.. and with hamas. But in deed, Arabs have killed -millions- of Africans-sudan
or worse than what Gibson's said since a)fry's not drunk b)he's blaming jews for a lot more than all the wars c)he's including what jews are "doing" in the present as well as the history of the planet. d)while he has no scholarly expertise, he's kind of trusted as an intellectual, and TV watchers like to hear what he has to say.
Nobody is asking you to love communists that murdered millions,or the Catholic church, or anybody. Catholics aren't murdering anybody now.If you want to say Catholic teaching including Jesus's teachings,are responsible for the murder of 10 million people and 60% of Europe's Jews then that's your ridiculous view,but it has nothing to do with the line from Fry, highlighted here which is that Jews are responsible for more misery than anybody else in history and doing it today
@boliusb The fact remains that Gott mit Uns (God with Us) can be seen emblazoned on Nazi flags and that Hitler was a devout catholic carrying out revenge on the "killers of Christ". Stalin went to an Orthodox Russian seminary in Tiflis to be educated for the priesthood. He became however more interested in the Communist "religion" instead.
So not only is Fry correct is saying what he does about Jewish books, it seems that all holy books (including the Koran) are a cause of psychosis.
Fry isn't talking about any books in this line. He's talking about Jews and that they're responsible for more misery than anyone other people in history and -doing it- to this day. And yes ancient books say some crazy things.. though obviously what matters is what is preached and how much/how often, what the focal point of the religion is(can vary with sect), and what people do, so islamists focus on Jihad. Bible believers don't burn witches. But it's irrelevant to Fry's line here.
@boliusb I do agree that it's irrelevant to Fry's line here and not quite in tune with what he is saying.
However I must admit that I could not resist the opportunity to attack religions in general.
By the way you say that "Catholics aren't murdering anybody now" but the Pope was until recently because he was telling the people of the African continent not to use condoms, thus condemning millions to death by Aids.
Well, the Pope may be partly responsible, but I don't think he's as responsible for it as the people of africa are. He'd say the same thing to people in America and also speak out against people having sex with every tom dick and harry, and they have their own superstitions not from the bible, like sex with a child can cure you of AIDs so even babies are getting it. They're not obeying him. properly., they sleep around
yes where do you think I got burnt witches from, obviously. They burnt witches and did the crusades, centures ago. I said present tense "Bible believers don't burn witches" and I was discussing with somebody that was saying all religions are equally bad, I was explaining to him that the way people keep them change. Today islamists kill homosexuals.. Bible believers don't and don't burn witches. Anyhow, that discussion is/was irrelevant to Fry's line here.
That's because modern Bible believers don't follow what the Bible says. It explicitly states that homosexuals are to be killed - Leviticus 20:13. It also advocates slavery in several passages.
Modern Christians and Jews just choose to ignore these instructions in their holy book, and pick and choose the parts they like.
Well no it's not really picking and choosing, Christians Jews Mormons e.t.c. have theological reasons not to burn witches, or not to kill homosexuals, you could always ask them and find out. But I don't see the relevance. And if it were picking and choosing, then you should say Good. Better that than killing homosexuals and burning witches. You should be more concerned with those that are killing homosexuals. Happens in certain countries.
He doesn't think the holocaust is a good thing, but since he thinks Jews have caused more misery than Nazis or Germans, but it wouldn't be illogical to given his belief.He might prefer to be a Nazi than a Jew.He'd feel less guilty.Nazis do like what he's saying in his line.This is splitting everybody into groups and pointing a finger for the most blame in the world,and people trust this Fry.It's actually more extreme than Mel Gibson's line that Jews are behind all the wars
I'm not calling him a Nazi. But he did not just insult a god there. He states a belief, that is a great slander against Jews, a slander that is a great injustice, a slander that would come from somebody that hates Jews in some sense, and worse, a slander that if believed, could easily justify hatred of Jews even justifies all the attacks on Jews in history since he'd think that's less than what Jews have caused and cause(to this day). It's a dangerous lie.
"the stele of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah c. 1209 BC, "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not."" Look up Assyrian conquest of nothern israel on wikipedia for example. Egypt There's a reason why Jews have ended up living in Exile all over the world(the middle east and europe). Jews/the people of Israel, were attacked exiled and survived and survive in exile.
Christians and Muslims persecuted Jews a lot, and you want to hold Jews responsible for that? Thing is, Christians and Muslims -are- most of mankind. Fry blamed "those desert tribes" for more misery for mankind than anybody else, so I don't think he is even referring to that at any point. Then he says "They're doing it to this day". So he thinks "they" (those desert-jewish- tribes) are doing it to this day, more misery for mankind than anybody else. He doesn't mean Muslims or Arabs
see, he's talking about them causing more misery for mankind than anybody else on the planet and doing it to this day. Muslims and Christians -are- most of mankind and "they" those desert tribes, are doing it to this day, well, that doesn't even sound remotely indirect.
if by proxy you unintentionally setting off a chain reaction of christianity and islam committing lots of suffering.. Besides the obvious thing I pointed out, that historically jews have been on the receiving end of them, and that he said most of mankind, The thing is he said They're -doing it- to this day. So sounds active.
And since Fry mentions in history. Yes, he thinks Jews have caused or are responsible for more misery than the Germans/Nazis. And the Arabs, And since he says "to this day", let's look at "to this day". The Arabs killed Millions of Africans in Darfur. Infact more Arabs killed Arabs in Lebanon 1975-1990 than the state of Israel ever killed in all its 60+ years.
Furthermore, Israel was never a large country, and was never expansionist. Never more than for example, the more modern borders of mandatory palestine. Always surrounded by big conquering empires and sometimes conquered by them. And doesn't compare to the larger empires, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, or the Arab/Islammic empire..
Read. I told you. Don't confuse biblical stories with facts unless you have archaeological evidence. The evidence is of Jews(The people of Israel, in the land of Israel), being massacred or in a state of peace, but hanging in there.
He didn't say "Prophets". There is no evidence of Jews spreading their religion by "fire and sword" at any time in history. Don't confuse biblical stories with facts unless you have archaeological evidence. The evidence is of Jews(The people of Israel, in the land of Israel), being massacred or in a state of peace, but hanging in there. He didn't say Prophets. And indeed the early jewish tribes, "They're doing it to this day". So who is he talking about?
To imply, that Jews are worse than the Arabs that massacred millions of Africans in the Sudan(Darfur). That Jews are worse than the Nazis. That, you name the people, Jews are worse Causing or responsible for more misery and to this day. That somebody can easily just take what Fry said to the next logical step, and say we'd be better off without Jews. And if Jews are attacked, one could say who cares 'cos they've caused more suffering than anybody and still do, and so they deserve it.
The belief Fry states, that Jews are responsible for more misery to mankind than anybody else on the face of the planet and doing it to this day ,is not only untrue, and insane, but also that kind of belief can easily justify anti-semitic attacks and easily justify hatred of Jews. Mel Gibson's remark that Jews are responsible for all the wars, is actually much less of a slander against Jews, than Fry's slander.
@vjohn82 " You said "I don't see how anything Fry has said is not true" Really? Look at what Fry said. Do you understand he's talking about a)the 10 commandments b)a group of desert tribes. and then refers to the group of desert tribes. and then says ...to this day. Who do you think the group of desert tribes he refers to is? Do you think he switched who he's talking about mid sentence when he said "to this day"?
You will not find any Fundamentalist christian saying anything as horrible as this leftist Stephen Fry says in this line about Jews.. It's a horrendous incredible slander, and a justification for anybody to hate Jews. And they do. As we see on the left. In a way that we don't see with fundamentalist Christians. People have written much about how the left has lost its way. How it allies with tyranny and anti-semites and hamas and hezbollah and islamists.
Wrong. I'm a Jewish atheist, you probably are too. But judge things by the facts. I've only given facts. I didn't mention my belief, or rather, lack of it, because while you might see it as in my favour, I don't think you should be judging things based on that. You have to use logic and look at the facts.
@boliusb I have looked at the facts but there is a very strange sympathy you offer for the Christian Right. It's peculiar. You also seem to be suggesting that there is an inherent right to a homeland which was only ever established on religious grounds. I don't see how anything Fry has said is not true. It's a perfectly legitimate opinion.
You've been saying the bulk of anti-semitism in the US is from Christians, you just mentioned Falwell and no quote. I've given a bunch of examples from the left, with not just leaders but people, and it's constant. And you're wrong about Israel being only ever established on religious grounds. Completely wrong and ignorant of the facts. Founders and leaders of the "modern" zionist movement, building and influencing things in the movement, were secular and very anti religious.
@boliusb Ah so the modern version is different? What about the one in the past? To get to a point in the future you look at history and historically the push for a Jewish homeland is entirely religious. What "allows" or teaches Muslims about the hatred towards Jewish people? Is it a quarterly magazine? Perhaps it's written in a textbook? Or perhaps they are derived from religious texts?
Look the word Zionism didn't exist until 19th century.. "modern zionism" is not that modern it started in the 1880s, many people just say Zionism when they mean what i'm referring to.It's founders and leaders were secular.And if you hadn't noticed, none of the Israeli Prime Ministers thus far have been religious jews.I say modern to distinguish it from anything earlier that was not really a movement. but there have always been dreams, of the jewish people returning to their homeland
As to muslims. "what teaches muslims"? Well look your understanding of religion is limited. Every religion can have crazy things in its texts which are interpreted.. So if you want to understand what is most relevant, you have to look at the preachers and the masses that follow them and how they relate to it. There have been documentaries like "undercover mosque" showing what Muslims are taught/learning. And leading islammic preachers like Shiekh Yusuf Al Qaradawi.
@boliusb Absolute nonsense. If a book is believed to be the written word of god and it contains passages containing reprehensible information then it doesn't matter what is being taught by preachers. If the information is there for them to be able to quote then they will claim the legitimacy of that information.
You say "Absolute nonsense. " ROTFLMAO I just stated what is plainly obvious and you call it nonsense. Why don' t you quote me. I spoke about determining what is relevant , influential, moving people. Of course the text and everything in it is legitimate. "If the information is there for them to be able to quote then they will claim the legitimacy of that information." Obviously. this doesn't contradict what I said.
@boliusb You said my understand of religion is limited. Then you said that it is how things are interpreted which gives meaning. You're saying one thing, meaning another and then shifting your opinion to make it seem as if you said something else. If you wanted to waste my time you couldn't have done it any better.
Here is why I say your understanding of religion is limited.You are going straight to the text and not taking into account current realities.Text is relevant, but so are current realities.Like what is preached.That shows you what interpretations people are taking and the degree of relevance various parts of their text have.And this is why you judge Christians so negatively, and I judge them so positively. Your judgement isn't giving much thought to current reality, what's preached etc
You're dancing around what you were supposed to be saying. You said most anti-semitism in the US comes from Christians. I said the left. I backed myself up. You didn't.
You've also dancing trying to avoid answering the question of what Stephen Fry said/meant, which is strongly related to this video. You think Zionism is motivated by religion when the founders were atheists. You're just totally ignorant and unable to handle facts.
I mean what you said was " You also seem to be suggesting that there is an inherent right to a homeland which was only ever established on religious grounds. " You're just grossly ignorant. And unable to argue a single point you make. Facts fly off you, You still haven't answered regarding what Fry meant.
so you say anti-semitism in the US is coming from Christians. You couldn't give much of an example. Just a name and no quote.. I could help you out, but it's a drop in the ocean and not very relevant at all. I was able to give lots of examples of very relevant constant jew hatred from the left.
" I don't see how anything Fry has said is not true" Really? Look at what Fry said. Do you understand he's talking about a)the 10 commandments b)a group of desert tribes. and then refers to the group of desert tribes. and then says ...to this day. Who do you think the group of desert tribes he refers to is? Do you think he switched who he's talking about mid sentence when he said "to this day"?
Anyone who criticise Israel is an anti-semite. Is it any wonder the horrible, putrid arse festering shit we let them get away with? We even give them the weapons to kill the brown people they don't like. I used to wonder why the Jews were persecuted throughout history. Then I grew up, did some reading and I now I understand. Not all of them, of course. Mr. Fry is himself, a Jew, and there are many more Jews who feel the same way as we do. It's those religious, racist fucks I hate.
"Anyone who criticise Israel is an anti-semite."That is a lie.Lots of Jews criticise Oslo for example. It's when double standards are used, when people criticise Jews or Israel more harshly when others have done the same or worse.Israel killing brown people?You're a racist. What brown people are Israel killing? Pakistanis? Indians? Most Israelis are from the Middle East. You ignoramous.You read some rubbish and think you know it all. Any Arab can become a Jew, that's not racism.
Racism is what you see on TV in the arab world watch?v=h8OiN0ddH2A Racism is Arabs killing -millions- of sudanese.Racism is Mahmoud Abbas saying No Jews in any future Palestinian state(which is declared on Judea and Samaria).Yet Israel's population allows for 20% Palestinian-Arab citizens including some in israeli parliament.Religious Jews keep themselves to themselves. Religious Muslims use their "dirty hand" to shake hands with non muslims/kafir.Israel wasn't even started by Religious
@boliusb And you have the bare-faced cheek to call me racist? "You low, corrosive lump of fecal Horror! You maniac bastardly Turd! I would rather drink stale urine from your arse, than remain for one moment more in your defiling company! I abominate you, you towering mound of corrupted slime! You're every utterance is like the slithering hiss of a Fat Maggot in the putrid guts of a decomposing rat! Your face is fowler than the unwiped inner ring of Satan's Rectum!" - Fry's rant
' "Any Arab can become a Jew, that's not racism." Do you listen to yourself? So Arabs are ok.. as long as they become a Jew? Disgusting. ' You absolute jackass. OK for what? What are you talking about. There are Arabs that are not Jews, and are better people than Stephen Fry.
"Well said, Mr. Fry, well said. What program did this excerpt come from? Can anyone tell me?" Could you clarify, do you agree that Jews are responsible/to blame for more misery for mankind than any other people in the history of the planet and "doing it" to this day?
Mankind, in general, is a complete fuck up. Religion has just given mankind an excuse to behave badly towards one another. Anti-Semitism is based on religious grounds. It's like saying being anti-Muslim is racist. It's non sequitur and I speak as, what would be considered, an ethnic Jew (not a religious one).
One's opinion is good according to the amount of sense it makes. I am also a Jew ethnically, but that is not relevant and neither is it relevant for you. What you are saying is wrong because it is ignorant. You write " Anti-Semitism is based on religious grounds" Are you not aware that Hitler killed Jews because they were Jews-ethnically, not because they were religious or irreligious. He killed Jews whether they were religious or not, whether they assimilated, or not.
Furthermore "john", when you see people here in the comments, talk about "Jewish power" spewing hatred and jealousy and ideas about Jews conspiring.. You think they only oppose religious jews? You know as well as I do, or perhaps you are so ignorant that you don't, that most Jews are secular. When you read of Sheikhs saying Jews are renouned for their treachury and opposition to islam and mohammed and so on, they are not just against religious Jews.
Additionally, when they say the end of days will not come until a tribe of muslims kill a tribe of jews e.t.c. a quote you no doubt are not aware of, you are dangerously ignorant. You think that anti-semitism is only against religious jews? So you being selfish, think you are safe? So like a coward you want to feed other jews to the crocodiles forgetting they'll eat you last. But actually they're not against religious jews specifically. Anti-semitism is against Jews religious or secular.
@Antroposter41 About jewish power? The fellow that wrote a "top comment" that 6 people like about judaism being racism, also wrote that jews are racists, and wrote "To get an impression of how Jewish power works one need only look at the US"
@bolius1 I'm more than aware being a teacher of History. I'm also aware that Hitler believed he was doing gods work in removing the world of the Jewish people. Ethnicity was only part of the issue albeit a significant one. Anti-Semitism itself is not rooted in ethnicity; you are wrong if you think it is.
You're talking about the causes of his anti-semitism and saying it was Hitler's belief in god. I don't agree. But the fact it he had -beliefs- Jews are terrible, that kind of thing. That's the basis of his anti-semitism. You could ask what was the basis of that. You say his belief in God. That's not really what this video is about though. And all I was saying in those replies to you which you understand no doubt is that the target of Hitler's anti-semitism included all Jews e.g. You.
@bolius1 So you are essentially accusing me of misunderstanding the racism that I would encounter in my life or indeed in the lives of the Jewish people across the world and in antiquity? That seems a little contrived and capricious to me.
"So you are essentially accusing me of misunderstanding the racism that I would encounter in my life" What are you talking about? Can you quote me? I told you that you understand no doubt that Hitler's anti-semitism was against all Jews. When you said Anti-Semitism was based on religion, I thought you meant the Beliefs and Targets of Anti-semitism. Then from what you said subsequently it was clear you didn't mean that. I acknowledged that. Fine. No disagreement there.
@bolius1 You said "So like a coward you want to feed other jews to the crocodiles forgetting they'll eat you last." You are inferring that I am misunderstanding the nature of anti-Semitic thought processes. I think we have an agreement because I think my clarification was enough to steer you in that direction. Also, I might add, Hitler's targets were indeed ALL Jews but NOT based on the singular reason of race. Read his work/quotes; it's based on the idea the Jews put Jesus to death.
No doubt he had/came up with many reasons. I read that he hated the passivism of Christianity and preferred the violent nature of Islam, he thought it far better. I have read somewhere that Hitler wrote that it occurred to him that the Jews since they've lasted for millenia, might be the last surviving race, so he wanted to eliminate them to prevent that. I read he also hated the "human conscience" which he blamed Jews for.
@bolius1 Exactly. Far many more reasons than race. That the ignorance prevails is a sad testament to human development but you will find, in most cases, that the persistence of Anti-Semitism comes from the far right of politics and is generally coordinated by fundamentalist Christians.
seriously? do you have any examples? In some countries there have been leftists marching with islamists.. banners like "we are all hezbollah now". leftist academics defending hamas, even some leftist on the news, since hamas(like hitler!) was democratically elected. Leftist political figures embracing islamists. Hamas manifesto has the famous anti-semitic hadith. And how about watch?v=h8OiN0ddH2A for what goes on in the arab world. What examples are there on the Christian right?
@bolius1 Let's be serious now. You need to ask whether Christians have an axe to grind with the Jews? Too many books to mention about the Jewish conspiracy that the Republicans in the US allege. Jerry Falwell is one of the more popular examples to use I guess
What has Jerry Falwell(now dead, so old) said that you found anti-semitic? What Republicans allege a Jewish conspiracy? 80% of Orthodox Jews voted Republican by the way(so Orthodox Jews who obviously identify very strongly with being jewish, and are very aware of anti-semitism in the world, are happy with them). Christianity can in theory produce anti-semitic followers, but that's not the current reality. I gave many examples of it from the left/islam.
@bolius1 I know he's dead. I simply said he was an example of the Christian Right being irrationally anti-Jewish. You asked for an example, I gave you one. I also never said that "the left/Islam" were not responsible for Anti-Semitism; again, read my post properly. I said it came, in the main, from the Christian Right in the US. On the European continent it comes from Muslims etc but this is a RELIGIOUS problem and NOT solely based on race.
The left is in the US just as in Britain, just not quite as bad.What has Jerry Falwell said that is anti-jewish?Anti-semitic incidents against Jews including violent ones of course, correlate with how much Israel-the jewish state-is unfairly slandered in the media.
The belief that Jews are just thieves in that land,that they have no history or legal or moral right to be there, that angers people.Jerry Falwell is vigorously pro Israel..his beliefs if anything,provoke philo-semitism amongst Christians. Who supports those that want to kill Jews? The left.Norman Finkelstein who supports Hamas and gives talks at Universities.Azzam Tamimi in Britain.who wants to be a suicide bomber. Chomsky with his odd remarks.George Galloway The left are allies with them.
With the left it's constant.. With Religious Christians it's hard to find even a brief quote , and if you could.. they don't have the people themselves rallying around the remark. In Britain the left rallied with slogans "We are all Hezbollah now". Maybe because America is so Christian, it hasn't had that problem. Christians nowadays are a blessing and a miracle for Jews. And by the voting of Republican, I think religious jews, they really identify very strongly as jews, know that.
@vjohn82 Are you stupid or ignorant? Hitler hated everyone who wasn't part of his master race. This included the mentally handicapped, homosexuals, gypsies, Bolsheviks etc etc etc. There is no telling what he would have ended up doing had he not been stopped.
@jacksawild Well this "master race" was Aryan (blonde hair, blue eyes). Did Hitler have blonde hair or blue eyes? I think you need to re-read what I wrote but, in any case, you only prove my point that Hitler wasn't focused on race for any person allegedly fitting the Aryan mould would be a potential addition to the "master race". Learn your history first.
@vjohn82 I think you need to read the history. The idea that Aryan = blonde hair + blue eyes is a hollywood fiction. You claim to be some kind of "history teacher". You need to get out more.
"Self-hating Jew" is just a phrase used to describe those who actually possess basic human decency and morality and can see the damage that the vehemently racist and criminally insane worldview of Israel's governance has done to the reputation of Jewry all around the world.
They know they can't shut a fellow Jew up by slandering them as "anti-semitic", so they resort to calling them "self-hating".
how has it misled you? do you think an anti-semite has to cheer the holocaust? do you think a Jew cannot be an Anti-semite? do you think self hating Jews don't exist? did you think the title means the whole discussion was an anti-semitic rant?
What is wrong with critcising Israeli politics?
simpsonmark 6 months ago 194
You can watch the whole thing ***It is a long criticism of religion*** but it doesn't change this line about "those desert tribes". And who those desert tribes are. And what he says about them. The desert tribes that came up with the 10 commandments and organise their life by them, can only be the Jews. Not Christians who came later, and don't think the law counts. Anyway. Jews *ARE* tribes and to this day are.
boliusb 6 months ago
Yes his talk before and after is criticising religion generally. But this line is against jews, and is not just criticism, it's slander. Jews have caused more misery for mankind than any other group!!!!!! and doing it to this day!! Most of mankind are Christians and Muslims. He's not talking about most of mankind doing things. He's talking a group of desert tribes doing things. And yes you're right, Jews are still tribes. Muslims and Christians aren't.
jonny7611 6 months ago
@jonny7611 Please finish high school english first.
GropeTheFatOstrich 6 months ago 33
And if you think it means ANY desert tribes. It doesn't. He's referring to the desert tribes that came up with them. In the rest of the clip he is just criticising religion generally. Not Jews. But in this line, he is criticising Jews. As I said.
boliusb 6 months ago
Comment removed
Sboy200 6 months ago
@Sboy200 The greater context-that it was after or around the time of a debate about the catholic church, does not affect what he said in this line at all. It's totally clear from the clip that here he is talking about the 10 commandments, and a group of desert tribes.And obviously a tribe if you look it up,is -a tribe-He also lists the 10 commandments, which isn't shown and just isn't relevant. You can watch the whole thing but it doesn't change this line about "those desert tribes"
boliusb 6 months ago
So, he says jews are "DOING IT" to this day (storing up more misery for mankind than any other people). What are Jews today doing to do that? And he says in history, More misery for mankind. Mankind is mostly Christian and Muslim. And it's clear which desert tribes this self hating jew meant
jonny7611 6 months ago
Way to not understand a thing Fry was saying. Good job on completely and utterly failing at comprehension.
eirefrance 6 months ago 92
This is absolutely disgusting, blaming jews for more misery than any other people AND then he says TO THIS DAY!!! this man drips anti-semitism. A self hating Jew par excellance.
jonny7611 6 months ago
I do not know what vendetta the author of this video has against Stephen Fry, I can only assume it's a difference of Theological opinion. But it's evident that this video was not mistitled mistakenly - it's a conscious lie and nobody watching it appears to have been fooled for a moment.
BelfastAtheist 6 months ago 4
This video is an epic fail. How is anything Fry said related to the Jews as a RACE? He's talking about the absolutists dogma of religion, so fuck off.
kitchenaut 6 months ago 6
@kitchenaut
You're an epic fail. What part of THOSE DESERT TRIBES or GROUP OF PEOPLE don't you understand? A reference to that is a reference to PEOPLE. He criticises dogma too but this line he criticizes TRIBES you don't understand tribes are PEOPLE, You are an epic fail!
boliusb 6 months ago
Nice taking-out-of-context there, gamiroba. However, your title is ludicrous. Here's why:
My ancestors believed it was right to own slaves. They were wrong. That does not categorize me as "self-hating."
Xenophile665 6 months ago 2
Stephen Fry is not Jewish. He's atheist. This clip was taken for the debate he and Chritsopher Hitchens had regarding the catholic church. The title of this video is a disgrace.
hj1978aa 6 months ago 13
@hj1978aa
READ, look a few comments earlier where the context is mentioned. Maybe you should tell Fry he is not jewish, it'd be news to him, he is a member of JFJFP and IJV. And many of his relatives were murdered in the holocaust. Jews, are a people, some religious, some not, some believers, some not. Stop being so ignorant.
boliusb 6 months ago 2
Who needs Mel with friends like these?
ThorFan4Life 6 months ago
When you can't refute Stephen you just quote-mine him and lie about what he's saying, how intellectually honest of you.
Serpent0fEden 6 months ago 2
Comment removed
boliusb 6 months ago
@Serpent0fEden
You imbecile, the context has been discussed already a few comments ago. Why don't you show where the lie is?
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb The lie is to frame what he's saying in the context of modern Jews, not Judaism.
Serpent0fEden 6 months ago
@Serpent0fEden
Rubbish, nobody is saying that's the context. The line was said, during a criticism of the 10 commandments.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb So if it's in the context of Judaism, then how is Stephen being anti-semitic?
Serpent0fEden 6 months ago
@Serpent0fEden
The context was the 10 commandments. Criticising that is criticising the Bible, Judaism or Christianity. That was what was before and after. But in the middle of it, he said -this line-. Which doesn't just criticise, but -slanders- "Those Desert Tribes" that came up with the 10 commandments / organised their society around them. that's a people he's talking about. And he says in history, so throughout history , and he says "To This Day". So Jews today too.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb "Those desert tribes" refers to the Jews at the time, not Jews today, and yes the Jews then were barbaric. Calling murder, sexism, slavery etc immoral doesn't make him an anti-semite.
Serpent0fEden 6 months ago 3
@Serpent0fEden
See you really agree he's talking about Jews at the time, that is not Judaism,that is Jews at the time.That's criticising a people.He then goes on to say "those desert tribes" to this day.That's Jews today. And he slanders Jews with the charge of causing more misery for mankind than any other people in the history of the planet.So Jews have caused more misery than the Arabs that slaughtered millions of africans.Or the Germans or Nazis.Or any group of people. DOING IT TO THIS DAY
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb He said they have "stored up more misery", because the dogma in the Bible HAS caused a huge amount of suffering including Nazi Germany.
Serpent0fEden 6 months ago 2
@Serpent0fEden
What, Jewish religion caused Nazism? Jews are responsible for the Nazis murdering them? Nazis murdered Jews regardless of whether they were religious or not, believers or not. Jews are responsible for the misery the Nazis unleashed onto them? Is that what you're saying? And Jews are "doing it to this day"?
boliusb 6 months ago
Purely situational.
jeneshisugakuto 6 months ago
It is a 20 second clip, provides no context, he is obviously speaking of the original Jewish(Abrahamic) text that would become the foundation for Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam, which he purportedly believes (I am in congruence in this belief) still oppress billions of people to this day. "Desert tribes" means the whole shabang, he isn't an anti-semite because he thinks the abrahamic religions have our world in disaray on many issues.
KogaTheThief 6 months ago 933
@KogaTheThief
Look it's no big secret he is against religion. And I said about the context, can you not read a few comments ago? If you want to discuss context, reply to that. And tribes and "Group of people" Means People. And yes he hates religion. But here in this line he mentions the 10 commandments, and a group of people.Specifically the desert tribes that came up with the 10 commandments, and he says of -those people- through history and to this day.
boliusb 6 months ago
@KogaTheThief I agree. Any desert tribes who obeyed the 10 commandments can be involved. Who else got involved in religions with "10 commandments" it isn't really 10 and he knows. He said the believings of the desert tribes. Their believings. I didn't here him refering to those who necessary came up with them, he said those who had the 10 commandments. I don't think he cares what race they'd be. He dislikes the believings. The association with race is seen by those who seek it.
jeneshisugakuto 6 months ago
@KogaTheThief bravo! All the Abrahamic religions have come from desert tribes.
Runakbin 6 months ago 29
Right ok I've just found the WHOLE clip. And what they were both discussing was The Ten Commandments. Stephen said that the Ten Commandments were made up by a bunch of deluded desert tribes. What he went on to say the clip above is actually saying that the Ten Commandment have caused a hell of a lot of trouble and misery for people. Search Stephen Fry Anne Widdecombe 10 commandments if you want to hear this clip in context.
jamie1234591 6 months ago
@jamie1234591
No, as you see from the end of the clip, he is interrupted by Anne, and that's where his diatribe against Jews stops but he was referring to PEOPLE in that line, not the 10 commandments. Now, if you say that later he said the 10 commandments have caused more misery for people, like more misery for jews, than anything else, well, i'd like to see you quote that. But it doesn't change -this- line.
boliusb 6 months ago
@jamie1234591
BTW The greater context-that it was after or around the time of a debate about the catholic church, does not affect what he said in this line at all. It's totally clear from the clip that here he is talking about the 10 commandments, and a group of desert tribes.And obviously a tribe if you look it up,is -a tribe-He also lists the 10 commandments, which isn't shown and just isn't relevant. You can watch the whole thing but it doesn't change this line about "those desert tribes"
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb It is not clear at all from this clip that the topic of this is a discussion is The Ten Commandments. He's saying that the desert tribes created the ten commandments and therefore these people have stored a hell of a lot of trouble for many people etc. Stephen did get in to trouble for criticising the Prime Minister for forming links with Polish politicians he suspected of being anti-semitic, so I think you miss understand where his heart is here. He is criticising religion, not ppl.
jamie1234591 6 months ago
@jamie1234591
He may oppose what he thinks is anti-semitism in one place, accusing(perhaps wrongly) a man of being an anti-semite(do you have a link to Fry doing that?). But Stephen Fry makes an extremely anti-semitic(or self hating or jew hating) remark here. As in, it is slander and easily justifies Jew hatred and anti-semitism, and the slander itself is something that'd come from a jew hater.
boliusb 6 months ago
@jamie1234591
You say yourself, he is referrig to desert tribes, people.Then you say he is criticising religion not people. Make your mind up. You could say he is criticising both. So, not just religion. He is criticising people here, you say that yourself. And you understate what hte said. He didn't just say a lot of misery, he said more than any other people in the history of the planet, and -doing it to this day-.
boliusb 6 months ago
This clip is just too short to see the point Stephen is making. Anne Widdecombe is a Catholic and the two famously debated whether christianity, and more specifically Catholisism, was a force for good in the world so maybe Stephen was attacking Catholics. I'm a fan of Stephen, he is very intelligent but also strikes me as humane and empathetic. A short clip like this doesn't alter my view of this great man.
jamie1234591 6 months ago 581
@jamie1234591 Yes, I don't think it's anything to do with race. Whoever had the teachings that to be honest have tormented so many, and it's because it's so on gonig and long, and we can't stop it completely. Even if he points the finger a people, because it was whoever it was, it is starting with them. If it was White...etc he's not going to give a damn about the race. Religion he doesn't like, but like all do, you go to the root of the problem. It's not "Jews" it's "them who started it"
jeneshisugakuto 6 months ago
You did not even bother to check out their entire debate? It gives a much better understanding of this clip which is taken totally out of context (I sound like a theist, don't I?).
Pundead 6 months ago
@Pundead
The context does not change the line, see earlier comments on context, i'll quote it for you. And as to what you think you sound like, I don't care whether you think you sound like a theist atheist or a pizza delivery man. I'm just talking about the facts.
boliusb 6 months ago
@Pundead
BTW The greater context-that it was after or around the time of a debate about the catholic church, does not affect what he said in this line at all. It's totally clear from the clip that here he is talking about the 10 commandments, and a group of desert tribes.And obviously a tribe if you look it up,is -a tribe- He also lists the 10 commandments, which isn't shown and just isn't relevant. You can watch the whole thing but it doesn't change this line about "those desert tribes"
boliusb 6 months ago
I mean , HE is not talking about deuteronomy or leviticus. He's talking about What Jews Are or Have Been Doing.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb Whilst I disagree with Stephen, the principle at work here is not limited to Jews. He's not accusing the Jews so much as accusing all 3 of the Abrahamic Religions of the world. The ten commandments are common to all 3 faiths, and all build on the original OT.
Everything you've been defending, and everything you've been railing against, is encompassed, along your own opinions, by his statement, which has nothing to do with singling out Jews no matter how badly you want it to.
Baalthazaq 6 months ago
@Baalthazaq
Listen you vile creature, you think I -want- anti-semitism? You think I want Jews to be singled out and hated? That's like saying I -want- Jews to be shouted at from cars and attacked on the way back from school and so on, the kind of things that escalate when people believe the garbage that is spewed about Jews(or about Israel), but in this case, Fry is singling out Jews for an outrageous slander.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb No you imbecile. You maggot. You racist. You bigot.
You have misconstrued my words immediately with less time given to think about your words than it takes to copy them. You have no value to offer anyone with this level of ignorance. What you want; to vilify.
Peddle your slander elsewhere and false claims of "Oh so you think I want anti-semitism". No; You want him to be an anti-semite because it is an easy defence of a complex argument that you are ill equipped to have.
Baalthazaq 6 months ago
@Baalthazaq
I told you. What he said was a slander against jews, which justifies anti-semitism. When people believe that it allows them to justify hating Jews, it gives them reason to shout at jews from cars and attack jewish children on their way to school. And you think I want him to be slandering Jews? and spreading his slander which could be believed by others and lead to more of that?
boliusb 6 months ago
@Baalthazaq
And to say that I or Jews would -want- somebody to hate Jews.. is outrageous.
boliusb 6 months ago
@Baalthazaq
You believe that Jews want to be hated? for what? And you wonder why we wanted to move to Israel amongst a sea of Arabs.. You persecute Jews for thousands of years and say Jews want it!! You sick bastard
boliusb 6 months ago
@Baalthazaq
And I include sick slander against Jews, because that is what leads to anti-semitism. Verbal slanderous attacks and lies have always led on to physical ones. Mein Kampf. The protocols of the elders of zion, e.t.c. Certainly this line from Fry would've made Hitler smile.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb
Desist your diarrhetic outpourings. I see no value in conversing further with your level of uninformed hatred and commitment to a mistake in your understanding.
You have a deep seated hatred in your heart, and I wish no part of it. Don't include my name in your responses. Happily pound away at your keyboard telling the world how wrong I am, but I have no real desire to repeat "You still don't get it" in 100 different forms to your refusal to exercise any level of thought.
Baalthazaq 6 months ago
@Baalthazaq
Well let's see if you're capable of a rational discourse without accusing me of wanting somebody to be an anti-semite.. a classic anti-semitic canard. Desist from that. I see you can't and won't. So no real discourse is possible with you.
boliusb 6 months ago
@Baalthazaq
And i'm not really taking issue with some kind of criticism of "Abrahamic Faiths".. I might think it's very silly, it's not a terrible thing to say. Not a dangerous slander. I'm taking issue with this line that he says here.. about the desert tribes /jews then in history and -today-.
boliusb 6 months ago
@Baalthazaq
Anti-semitic beliefs,including -yours- that I or Jews want people to hate them,the implication being that Jews are a really vile manipulative people who want to be hated so they can manpiulate non-jews that's what you believe you bastard.And onto your other point.He mentions the desrt tribes and the 10 commandments and makes a statement about the desert tribes.If he just criticised the 10 commandments,it wouldn't be singling Jews out. I'm taking issue with what he says in this line
boliusb 6 months ago
he clearly believes jews have caused more misery -for mankind- than the germans or nazis, the arabs and all other peoples Not talking about Deuteronomy or Leviticus. Why don't you tell me how his slander is true? It's a good justification for hating Jews, that's what it is.
boliusb 6 months ago
What Fry says is a slander. And it would be expected from a self hating jew, or anti-semite. And worse, it can easily justify jew hatred. If somebody believed Fry then one could logically say, Jew hatred throughout history is somewhat deserved considering they've caused more misery than anybody else . We'd be better off without Jews.. e.t.c. It's simply a grotesque slander that Jews have done more misery than anybody else - and today!. Arabs killed millions of africans in sudan.
boliusb 6 months ago
Leviticus and Deuteronomy are filled with love and wisdom, if you're a psychopath who likes killing and torturing for arbitrary and trivial 'crimes'. You've got to be pretty twisted not to see his point, even if you don't entirely agree with him.
crapatev 6 months ago
@crapatev
"Leviticus and Deuteronomy are filled with love and wisdom" DUDE there is much violence in the bible. Do you not understand that the thing being discussed here is not religion in general or the bible. The thing being discussed here is the line Stephen Fry says in this video. What have Jews been doing in history and today that causes more misery than all other peoples in history, tell me?
boliusb 6 months ago
Whoever uploaded this, fuck you
eerr89 6 months ago 2
Stephen Fry is an atheist, not a Jew.
almightybob101 6 months ago
@almightybob101
He's a Jewish Atheist. Jews are a people. This is well known. His parents are jewish, he's a member of JFJFP(jews for...) ... and the similar one IJV,.. And you're correct he's an atheist, nobody has disputed that!
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb The title of the video seems to dispute it. How are we to differentiate between Jews the people and Jews the faith in writing? I could enter the Jewish faith but obviously that would not change my heritage. In this context "self-hating Jew" seems to be saying Fry is bashing his own religion.
almightybob101 6 months ago
@almightybob101
Roughly speaking, there are religions like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, e.t.c. and then there are the people.Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs.Hitler hated Jews, he was an anti-semite par excellance i'm sure you'd agree with that.If Hitler had been Jewish, he'd still be an anti-semite,
boliusb 6 months ago
@almightybob101
but in those cases, of Jewish anti-semites,the term Self Hating Jew tends to be used. As in, hates other Jews. They often love themselves and think they're morally superior
boliusb 6 months ago
it's an expression, for an anti-semite or person holding anti-semitic beliefs, e.g in this case, something that wouldn't look out of place in Mein Kampf .. but where the person is of jewish origin.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb, so what?
Prof. Alvin H. Rosenfeld: "Israel’s defamers and delegitimizers include large numbers of misguided Jews, manipulative Jews, malevolent Jews, and other Jews of assorted bad faith."
And why have so many such characters spread in recent decades? Because everyone is excusing every one of their shenanigans with "but they are of Jewish origin."
What kind of excuse is this?
Kurtlane 6 months ago
@Kurtlane
yep.. I was just explaining the use of the term "self hating jew" as oppose to anti-semite.. or person holding anti-semitic beliefs.. or person condemning jews by a harsher standard..they're not just ashamed, they're proud to be ashamed.. they lead the chorus of condemnation against jews,they're moralizers with a double standard. trying to gain social standing by distancing themselves, trying to save thier skin/trying to be liked by separating themselves off from the others.
boliusb 6 months ago
so, they're basket cases, I don't think there would be a perfect term to define them, but self hating jew works.. this particular one gets there in this line by holding an anti-semitic belief, though also he's an israel bashing one also insane double standards, calls israel's independence a nakba as bad as the holocaust. But people can look up the term if they haven't heard of it. of course, it describes a reality.
boliusb 6 months ago
I certainly wasn't justifying it in saying he was "of jewish origin". I was just stating the fact. Indeed, it is irrelevant.. Just there are some that don't even know the basic facts.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb, I guess you are right. I actually don't like the term "self-hating Jews," because whatever they are, they don't seem to hate themselves. I prefer "Jew-hating Jews" or "toads" (as Jabotinsky called them).
They are individuals, and differ somewhat among themselves. So it's hard to generalize.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 6 months ago
Of course, "Jew-hating Jews" means "self-hating Jews," and then one's mind begins to go in circles with all the craziness involved in this.
So I prefer not to think of these creatures too much, so that their disease doesn't spread to me.
Kurtlane 6 months ago
@Kurtlane
however one names the syndrome, and whatever is going on with them psychologically (proud to be ashamed, trying to be liked e.t.c. they're a form of demented liberal) the crucial thing they use and rely on, is a double or triple standard. So clearly unjust. As soon as one doesn't use a double standard, the vicious slander that justifies jew hatred, doesn't work. because, we're not demons, worse than all, so demonization won't work,and the facts when dealt with fairly show that.
boliusb 6 months ago
@Kurtlane
I'm so aware of the problem of self hating jews, I make sure that what I say and think doesn't suffer from it, I try to ensure I don't use a double standard. The crimes of our enemies and others, in declared intention or deed, are so bad, that any attempt to moralise should if we're aware of the facts, turn against them. Arabs besides intending on genocide of Jews in 1948 and '67 and '73 and it goes on.. and with hamas. But in deed, Arabs have killed -millions- of Africans-sudan
boliusb 6 months ago
Wow. That's just as bad as what Mel Gibson said
ThorFan4Life 6 months ago
@ThorFan4Life
or worse than what Gibson's said since a)fry's not drunk b)he's blaming jews for a lot more than all the wars c)he's including what jews are "doing" in the present as well as the history of the planet. d)while he has no scholarly expertise, he's kind of trusted as an intellectual, and TV watchers like to hear what he has to say.
boliusb 6 months ago
Gott mit Uns (God with Us) can be seen emblazoned on Nazi flags!
Hitler slaughtered about ten million people.
He was a belligerent, sadistic psychopath.
His religious beliefs are still being falsely reported by ignorant Christians who wishfully claim he was an atheist.
Hitler was Roman Catholic, and to the credit of the Roman Catholic Church, Hitler is still in good standing.
Love the Catholic Church – where Hitler is in good standing and Galileo was excommunicated?
I do not think so.
mgketteridge 6 months ago
@mgketteridge
Nobody is asking you to love communists that murdered millions,or the Catholic church, or anybody. Catholics aren't murdering anybody now.If you want to say Catholic teaching including Jesus's teachings,are responsible for the murder of 10 million people and 60% of Europe's Jews then that's your ridiculous view,but it has nothing to do with the line from Fry, highlighted here which is that Jews are responsible for more misery than anybody else in history and doing it today
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb The fact remains that Gott mit Uns (God with Us) can be seen emblazoned on Nazi flags and that Hitler was a devout catholic carrying out revenge on the "killers of Christ". Stalin went to an Orthodox Russian seminary in Tiflis to be educated for the priesthood. He became however more interested in the Communist "religion" instead.
So not only is Fry correct is saying what he does about Jewish books, it seems that all holy books (including the Koran) are a cause of psychosis.
mgketteridge 6 months ago
Fry isn't talking about any books in this line. He's talking about Jews and that they're responsible for more misery than anyone other people in history and -doing it- to this day. And yes ancient books say some crazy things.. though obviously what matters is what is preached and how much/how often, what the focal point of the religion is(can vary with sect), and what people do, so islamists focus on Jihad. Bible believers don't burn witches. But it's irrelevant to Fry's line here.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb I do agree that it's irrelevant to Fry's line here and not quite in tune with what he is saying.
However I must admit that I could not resist the opportunity to attack religions in general.
By the way you say that "Catholics aren't murdering anybody now" but the Pope was until recently because he was telling the people of the African continent not to use condoms, thus condemning millions to death by Aids.
mgketteridge 6 months ago
@mgketteridge
Well, the Pope may be partly responsible, but I don't think he's as responsible for it as the people of africa are. He'd say the same thing to people in America and also speak out against people having sex with every tom dick and harry, and they have their own superstitions not from the bible, like sex with a child can cure you of AIDs so even babies are getting it. They're not obeying him. properly., they sleep around
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb OK let's leave it there please.
mgketteridge 6 months ago
@mgketteridge
though i'd blame the Pope for not OKing condoms, I dare say it could perhaps be justified in christianity to issue them, given the circumstances.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb I am sure you are correct about that.
mgketteridge 6 months ago
@boliusb bible believers have burnt witches.
thestranger11 6 months ago
@thestranger11
yes where do you think I got burnt witches from, obviously. They burnt witches and did the crusades, centures ago. I said present tense "Bible believers don't burn witches" and I was discussing with somebody that was saying all religions are equally bad, I was explaining to him that the way people keep them change. Today islamists kill homosexuals.. Bible believers don't and don't burn witches. Anyhow, that discussion is/was irrelevant to Fry's line here.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb "Today islamists kill homosexuals.. Bible believers don't and don't burn witches."
That's because modern Bible believers don't follow what the Bible says. It explicitly states that homosexuals are to be killed - Leviticus 20:13. It also advocates slavery in several passages.
Modern Christians and Jews just choose to ignore these instructions in their holy book, and pick and choose the parts they like.
almightybob101 6 months ago
@almightybob101
Well no it's not really picking and choosing, Christians Jews Mormons e.t.c. have theological reasons not to burn witches, or not to kill homosexuals, you could always ask them and find out. But I don't see the relevance. And if it were picking and choosing, then you should say Good. Better that than killing homosexuals and burning witches. You should be more concerned with those that are killing homosexuals. Happens in certain countries.
boliusb 6 months ago
@SneakyJarlsberg
He doesn't think the holocaust is a good thing, but since he thinks Jews have caused more misery than Nazis or Germans, but it wouldn't be illogical to given his belief.He might prefer to be a Nazi than a Jew.He'd feel less guilty.Nazis do like what he's saying in his line.This is splitting everybody into groups and pointing a finger for the most blame in the world,and people trust this Fry.It's actually more extreme than Mel Gibson's line that Jews are behind all the wars
jonny7611 6 months ago
@SneakyJarlsberg
I'm not calling him a Nazi. But he did not just insult a god there. He states a belief, that is a great slander against Jews, a slander that is a great injustice, a slander that would come from somebody that hates Jews in some sense, and worse, a slander that if believed, could easily justify hatred of Jews even justifies all the attacks on Jews in history since he'd think that's less than what Jews have caused and cause(to this day). It's a dangerous lie.
jonny7611 6 months ago
@SneakyJarlsberg
"the stele of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah c. 1209 BC, "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not."" Look up Assyrian conquest of nothern israel on wikipedia for example. Egypt There's a reason why Jews have ended up living in Exile all over the world(the middle east and europe). Jews/the people of Israel, were attacked exiled and survived and survive in exile.
jonny7611 6 months ago
@jonny7611
Christians and Muslims persecuted Jews a lot, and you want to hold Jews responsible for that? Thing is, Christians and Muslims -are- most of mankind. Fry blamed "those desert tribes" for more misery for mankind than anybody else, so I don't think he is even referring to that at any point. Then he says "They're doing it to this day". So he thinks "they" (those desert-jewish- tribes) are doing it to this day, more misery for mankind than anybody else. He doesn't mean Muslims or Arabs
jonny7611 6 months ago
see, he's talking about them causing more misery for mankind than anybody else on the planet and doing it to this day. Muslims and Christians -are- most of mankind and "they" those desert tribes, are doing it to this day, well, that doesn't even sound remotely indirect.
jonny7611 6 months ago
if by proxy you unintentionally setting off a chain reaction of christianity and islam committing lots of suffering.. Besides the obvious thing I pointed out, that historically jews have been on the receiving end of them, and that he said most of mankind, The thing is he said They're -doing it- to this day. So sounds active.
jonny7611 6 months ago
@SneakyJarlsberg
And since Fry mentions in history. Yes, he thinks Jews have caused or are responsible for more misery than the Germans/Nazis. And the Arabs, And since he says "to this day", let's look at "to this day". The Arabs killed Millions of Africans in Darfur. Infact more Arabs killed Arabs in Lebanon 1975-1990 than the state of Israel ever killed in all its 60+ years.
jonny7611 6 months ago
@SneakyJarlsberg
Furthermore, Israel was never a large country, and was never expansionist. Never more than for example, the more modern borders of mandatory palestine. Always surrounded by big conquering empires and sometimes conquered by them. And doesn't compare to the larger empires, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, or the Arab/Islammic empire..
jonny7611 6 months ago
@SneakyJarlsberg
Read. I told you. Don't confuse biblical stories with facts unless you have archaeological evidence. The evidence is of Jews(The people of Israel, in the land of Israel), being massacred or in a state of peace, but hanging in there.
jonny7611 6 months ago
@SneakyJarlsberg
He didn't say "Prophets". There is no evidence of Jews spreading their religion by "fire and sword" at any time in history. Don't confuse biblical stories with facts unless you have archaeological evidence. The evidence is of Jews(The people of Israel, in the land of Israel), being massacred or in a state of peace, but hanging in there. He didn't say Prophets. And indeed the early jewish tribes, "They're doing it to this day". So who is he talking about?
jonny7611 6 months ago
To imply, that Jews are worse than the Arabs that massacred millions of Africans in the Sudan(Darfur). That Jews are worse than the Nazis. That, you name the people, Jews are worse Causing or responsible for more misery and to this day. That somebody can easily just take what Fry said to the next logical step, and say we'd be better off without Jews. And if Jews are attacked, one could say who cares 'cos they've caused more suffering than anybody and still do, and so they deserve it.
jonny7611 6 months ago
The belief Fry states, that Jews are responsible for more misery to mankind than anybody else on the face of the planet and doing it to this day ,is not only untrue, and insane, but also that kind of belief can easily justify anti-semitic attacks and easily justify hatred of Jews. Mel Gibson's remark that Jews are responsible for all the wars, is actually much less of a slander against Jews, than Fry's slander.
jonny7611 6 months ago
@vjohn82 " You said "I don't see how anything Fry has said is not true" Really? Look at what Fry said. Do you understand he's talking about a)the 10 commandments b)a group of desert tribes. and then refers to the group of desert tribes. and then says ...to this day. Who do you think the group of desert tribes he refers to is? Do you think he switched who he's talking about mid sentence when he said "to this day"?
boliusb 6 months ago
You will not find any Fundamentalist christian saying anything as horrible as this leftist Stephen Fry says in this line about Jews.. It's a horrendous incredible slander, and a justification for anybody to hate Jews. And they do. As we see on the left. In a way that we don't see with fundamentalist Christians. People have written much about how the left has lost its way. How it allies with tyranny and anti-semites and hamas and hezbollah and islamists.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb Let me guess, you're a Christian and right wing yeah?
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
Wrong. I'm a Jewish atheist, you probably are too. But judge things by the facts. I've only given facts. I didn't mention my belief, or rather, lack of it, because while you might see it as in my favour, I don't think you should be judging things based on that. You have to use logic and look at the facts.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb I have looked at the facts but there is a very strange sympathy you offer for the Christian Right. It's peculiar. You also seem to be suggesting that there is an inherent right to a homeland which was only ever established on religious grounds. I don't see how anything Fry has said is not true. It's a perfectly legitimate opinion.
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
You've been saying the bulk of anti-semitism in the US is from Christians, you just mentioned Falwell and no quote. I've given a bunch of examples from the left, with not just leaders but people, and it's constant. And you're wrong about Israel being only ever established on religious grounds. Completely wrong and ignorant of the facts. Founders and leaders of the "modern" zionist movement, building and influencing things in the movement, were secular and very anti religious.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb Ah so the modern version is different? What about the one in the past? To get to a point in the future you look at history and historically the push for a Jewish homeland is entirely religious. What "allows" or teaches Muslims about the hatred towards Jewish people? Is it a quarterly magazine? Perhaps it's written in a textbook? Or perhaps they are derived from religious texts?
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
Look the word Zionism didn't exist until 19th century.. "modern zionism" is not that modern it started in the 1880s, many people just say Zionism when they mean what i'm referring to.It's founders and leaders were secular.And if you hadn't noticed, none of the Israeli Prime Ministers thus far have been religious jews.I say modern to distinguish it from anything earlier that was not really a movement. but there have always been dreams, of the jewish people returning to their homeland
boliusb 6 months ago
As to muslims. "what teaches muslims"? Well look your understanding of religion is limited. Every religion can have crazy things in its texts which are interpreted.. So if you want to understand what is most relevant, you have to look at the preachers and the masses that follow them and how they relate to it. There have been documentaries like "undercover mosque" showing what Muslims are taught/learning. And leading islammic preachers like Shiekh Yusuf Al Qaradawi.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb Absolute nonsense. If a book is believed to be the written word of god and it contains passages containing reprehensible information then it doesn't matter what is being taught by preachers. If the information is there for them to be able to quote then they will claim the legitimacy of that information.
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
You say "Absolute nonsense. " ROTFLMAO I just stated what is plainly obvious and you call it nonsense. Why don' t you quote me. I spoke about determining what is relevant , influential, moving people. Of course the text and everything in it is legitimate. "If the information is there for them to be able to quote then they will claim the legitimacy of that information." Obviously. this doesn't contradict what I said.
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb You said my understand of religion is limited. Then you said that it is how things are interpreted which gives meaning. You're saying one thing, meaning another and then shifting your opinion to make it seem as if you said something else. If you wanted to waste my time you couldn't have done it any better.
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
Here is why I say your understanding of religion is limited.You are going straight to the text and not taking into account current realities.Text is relevant, but so are current realities.Like what is preached.That shows you what interpretations people are taking and the degree of relevance various parts of their text have.And this is why you judge Christians so negatively, and I judge them so positively. Your judgement isn't giving much thought to current reality, what's preached etc
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb You judge Christians positively? Dear me...
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
You're dancing around what you were supposed to be saying. You said most anti-semitism in the US comes from Christians. I said the left. I backed myself up. You didn't.
boliusb 6 months ago
@vjohn82
You've also dancing trying to avoid answering the question of what Stephen Fry said/meant, which is strongly related to this video. You think Zionism is motivated by religion when the founders were atheists. You're just totally ignorant and unable to handle facts.
boliusb 6 months ago
@vjohn82
I mean what you said was " You also seem to be suggesting that there is an inherent right to a homeland which was only ever established on religious grounds. " You're just grossly ignorant. And unable to argue a single point you make. Facts fly off you, You still haven't answered regarding what Fry meant.
boliusb 6 months ago
@vjohn82
so you say anti-semitism in the US is coming from Christians. You couldn't give much of an example. Just a name and no quote.. I could help you out, but it's a drop in the ocean and not very relevant at all. I was able to give lots of examples of very relevant constant jew hatred from the left.
boliusb 6 months ago
@vjohn82
" I don't see how anything Fry has said is not true" Really? Look at what Fry said. Do you understand he's talking about a)the 10 commandments b)a group of desert tribes. and then refers to the group of desert tribes. and then says ...to this day. Who do you think the group of desert tribes he refers to is? Do you think he switched who he's talking about mid sentence when he said "to this day"?
boliusb 6 months ago
Anyone who criticise Israel is an anti-semite. Is it any wonder the horrible, putrid arse festering shit we let them get away with? We even give them the weapons to kill the brown people they don't like. I used to wonder why the Jews were persecuted throughout history. Then I grew up, did some reading and I now I understand. Not all of them, of course. Mr. Fry is himself, a Jew, and there are many more Jews who feel the same way as we do. It's those religious, racist fucks I hate.
jacksawild 6 months ago
@jacksawild
"Anyone who criticise Israel is an anti-semite."That is a lie.Lots of Jews criticise Oslo for example. It's when double standards are used, when people criticise Jews or Israel more harshly when others have done the same or worse.Israel killing brown people?You're a racist. What brown people are Israel killing? Pakistanis? Indians? Most Israelis are from the Middle East. You ignoramous.You read some rubbish and think you know it all. Any Arab can become a Jew, that's not racism.
boliusb 6 months ago
Racism is what you see on TV in the arab world watch?v=h8OiN0ddH2A Racism is Arabs killing -millions- of sudanese.Racism is Mahmoud Abbas saying No Jews in any future Palestinian state(which is declared on Judea and Samaria).Yet Israel's population allows for 20% Palestinian-Arab citizens including some in israeli parliament.Religious Jews keep themselves to themselves. Religious Muslims use their "dirty hand" to shake hands with non muslims/kafir.Israel wasn't even started by Religious
boliusb 6 months ago
@boliusb And you have the bare-faced cheek to call me racist? "You low, corrosive lump of fecal Horror! You maniac bastardly Turd! I would rather drink stale urine from your arse, than remain for one moment more in your defiling company! I abominate you, you towering mound of corrupted slime! You're every utterance is like the slithering hiss of a Fat Maggot in the putrid guts of a decomposing rat! Your face is fowler than the unwiped inner ring of Satan's Rectum!" - Fry's rant
jacksawild 6 months ago
@boliusb "Any Arab can become a Jew, that's not racism." Do you listen to yourself? So Arabs are ok.. as long as they become a Jew? Disgusting.
jacksawild 6 months ago
@jacksawild
' "Any Arab can become a Jew, that's not racism." Do you listen to yourself? So Arabs are ok.. as long as they become a Jew? Disgusting. ' You absolute jackass. OK for what? What are you talking about. There are Arabs that are not Jews, and are better people than Stephen Fry.
boliusb 6 months ago
Most Americans are i'd say, better people than Stephen Fry, are you just looking to try to shout racist? Idiot.. Try again.
boliusb 6 months ago
Well said, Mr. Fry, well said. What program did this excerpt come from? Can anyone tell me?
EVLWNS 6 months ago
@EVLWNS
"Well said, Mr. Fry, well said. What program did this excerpt come from? Can anyone tell me?" Could you clarify, do you agree that Jews are responsible/to blame for more misery for mankind than any other people in the history of the planet and "doing it" to this day?
bolius1 6 months ago
Mankind, in general, is a complete fuck up. Religion has just given mankind an excuse to behave badly towards one another. Anti-Semitism is based on religious grounds. It's like saying being anti-Muslim is racist. It's non sequitur and I speak as, what would be considered, an ethnic Jew (not a religious one).
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
One's opinion is good according to the amount of sense it makes. I am also a Jew ethnically, but that is not relevant and neither is it relevant for you. What you are saying is wrong because it is ignorant. You write " Anti-Semitism is based on religious grounds" Are you not aware that Hitler killed Jews because they were Jews-ethnically, not because they were religious or irreligious. He killed Jews whether they were religious or not, whether they assimilated, or not.
bolius1 6 months ago
Furthermore "john", when you see people here in the comments, talk about "Jewish power" spewing hatred and jealousy and ideas about Jews conspiring.. You think they only oppose religious jews? You know as well as I do, or perhaps you are so ignorant that you don't, that most Jews are secular. When you read of Sheikhs saying Jews are renouned for their treachury and opposition to islam and mohammed and so on, they are not just against religious Jews.
bolius1 6 months ago
Additionally, when they say the end of days will not come until a tribe of muslims kill a tribe of jews e.t.c. a quote you no doubt are not aware of, you are dangerously ignorant. You think that anti-semitism is only against religious jews? So you being selfish, think you are safe? So like a coward you want to feed other jews to the crocodiles forgetting they'll eat you last. But actually they're not against religious jews specifically. Anti-semitism is against Jews religious or secular.
bolius1 6 months ago
@bolius1 Where are people in the comments talking about "Jewish power"? I honestly want to know
Antroposter41 6 months ago
@Antroposter41 About jewish power? The fellow that wrote a "top comment" that 6 people like about judaism being racism, also wrote that jews are racists, and wrote "To get an impression of how Jewish power works one need only look at the US"
bolius1 6 months ago
@bolius1 I'm more than aware being a teacher of History. I'm also aware that Hitler believed he was doing gods work in removing the world of the Jewish people. Ethnicity was only part of the issue albeit a significant one. Anti-Semitism itself is not rooted in ethnicity; you are wrong if you think it is.
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
You're talking about the causes of his anti-semitism and saying it was Hitler's belief in god. I don't agree. But the fact it he had -beliefs- Jews are terrible, that kind of thing. That's the basis of his anti-semitism. You could ask what was the basis of that. You say his belief in God. That's not really what this video is about though. And all I was saying in those replies to you which you understand no doubt is that the target of Hitler's anti-semitism included all Jews e.g. You.
bolius1 6 months ago
@bolius1 So you are essentially accusing me of misunderstanding the racism that I would encounter in my life or indeed in the lives of the Jewish people across the world and in antiquity? That seems a little contrived and capricious to me.
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
"So you are essentially accusing me of misunderstanding the racism that I would encounter in my life" What are you talking about? Can you quote me? I told you that you understand no doubt that Hitler's anti-semitism was against all Jews. When you said Anti-Semitism was based on religion, I thought you meant the Beliefs and Targets of Anti-semitism. Then from what you said subsequently it was clear you didn't mean that. I acknowledged that. Fine. No disagreement there.
bolius1 6 months ago
@bolius1 You said "So like a coward you want to feed other jews to the crocodiles forgetting they'll eat you last." You are inferring that I am misunderstanding the nature of anti-Semitic thought processes. I think we have an agreement because I think my clarification was enough to steer you in that direction. Also, I might add, Hitler's targets were indeed ALL Jews but NOT based on the singular reason of race. Read his work/quotes; it's based on the idea the Jews put Jesus to death.
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
No doubt he had/came up with many reasons. I read that he hated the passivism of Christianity and preferred the violent nature of Islam, he thought it far better. I have read somewhere that Hitler wrote that it occurred to him that the Jews since they've lasted for millenia, might be the last surviving race, so he wanted to eliminate them to prevent that. I read he also hated the "human conscience" which he blamed Jews for.
bolius1 6 months ago
@bolius1 Exactly. Far many more reasons than race. That the ignorance prevails is a sad testament to human development but you will find, in most cases, that the persistence of Anti-Semitism comes from the far right of politics and is generally coordinated by fundamentalist Christians.
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
seriously? do you have any examples? In some countries there have been leftists marching with islamists.. banners like "we are all hezbollah now". leftist academics defending hamas, even some leftist on the news, since hamas(like hitler!) was democratically elected. Leftist political figures embracing islamists. Hamas manifesto has the famous anti-semitic hadith. And how about watch?v=h8OiN0ddH2A for what goes on in the arab world. What examples are there on the Christian right?
bolius1 6 months ago
I mean, I agree many more reasons than race, as you say. But you say fundamentalist christians.. that's where I question.
bolius1 6 months ago
@bolius1 Let's be serious now. You need to ask whether Christians have an axe to grind with the Jews? Too many books to mention about the Jewish conspiracy that the Republicans in the US allege. Jerry Falwell is one of the more popular examples to use I guess
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
What has Jerry Falwell(now dead, so old) said that you found anti-semitic? What Republicans allege a Jewish conspiracy? 80% of Orthodox Jews voted Republican by the way(so Orthodox Jews who obviously identify very strongly with being jewish, and are very aware of anti-semitism in the world, are happy with them). Christianity can in theory produce anti-semitic followers, but that's not the current reality. I gave many examples of it from the left/islam.
bolius1 6 months ago
@bolius1 I know he's dead. I simply said he was an example of the Christian Right being irrationally anti-Jewish. You asked for an example, I gave you one. I also never said that "the left/Islam" were not responsible for Anti-Semitism; again, read my post properly. I said it came, in the main, from the Christian Right in the US. On the European continent it comes from Muslims etc but this is a RELIGIOUS problem and NOT solely based on race.
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82
The left is in the US just as in Britain, just not quite as bad.What has Jerry Falwell said that is anti-jewish?Anti-semitic incidents against Jews including violent ones of course, correlate with how much Israel-the jewish state-is unfairly slandered in the media.
boliusb 6 months ago
The belief that Jews are just thieves in that land,that they have no history or legal or moral right to be there, that angers people.Jerry Falwell is vigorously pro Israel..his beliefs if anything,provoke philo-semitism amongst Christians. Who supports those that want to kill Jews? The left.Norman Finkelstein who supports Hamas and gives talks at Universities.Azzam Tamimi in Britain.who wants to be a suicide bomber. Chomsky with his odd remarks.George Galloway The left are allies with them.
boliusb 6 months ago
With the left it's constant.. With Religious Christians it's hard to find even a brief quote , and if you could.. they don't have the people themselves rallying around the remark. In Britain the left rallied with slogans "We are all Hezbollah now". Maybe because America is so Christian, it hasn't had that problem. Christians nowadays are a blessing and a miracle for Jews. And by the voting of Republican, I think religious jews, they really identify very strongly as jews, know that.
boliusb 6 months ago
@vjohn82 Are you stupid or ignorant? Hitler hated everyone who wasn't part of his master race. This included the mentally handicapped, homosexuals, gypsies, Bolsheviks etc etc etc. There is no telling what he would have ended up doing had he not been stopped.
jacksawild 6 months ago
@jacksawild
you obviously cannot read
boliusb 6 months ago
@jacksawild Well this "master race" was Aryan (blonde hair, blue eyes). Did Hitler have blonde hair or blue eyes? I think you need to re-read what I wrote but, in any case, you only prove my point that Hitler wasn't focused on race for any person allegedly fitting the Aryan mould would be a potential addition to the "master race". Learn your history first.
vjohn82 6 months ago
@vjohn82 I think you need to read the history. The idea that Aryan = blonde hair + blue eyes is a hollywood fiction. You claim to be some kind of "history teacher". You need to get out more.
jacksawild 6 months ago
@jacksawild Ok. Will do. I'm sure sir Ian Kershaw was completely wrong about Hitler's preference for a race built on Nordic qualities too?
vjohn82 6 months ago
@dialoguequent
Exactly, which they ruthlessly use politically to shield themselves.
Ie: if you speak out against the Jewish religion you will be called a racist, simply because it shares the same proper noun as their ethnicity...
OrthodoxDarwinist 6 months ago
"Self-hating Jew" is just a phrase used to describe those who actually possess basic human decency and morality and can see the damage that the vehemently racist and criminally insane worldview of Israel's governance has done to the reputation of Jewry all around the world.
They know they can't shut a fellow Jew up by slandering them as "anti-semitic", so they resort to calling them "self-hating".
Lol, you couldn't make this shit up.....
OrthodoxDarwinist 6 months ago
in the time honoured tradition of teh interwebz: misleading title is misleading
DesertHamster 6 months ago
@DesertHamster
how has it misled you? do you think an anti-semite has to cheer the holocaust? do you think a Jew cannot be an Anti-semite? do you think self hating Jews don't exist? did you think the title means the whole discussion was an anti-semitic rant?
boliusb 6 months ago