Dennis McGuire on COG Identity

[troy1387]

The COG use to give it's members idenity. It was called HOLINESS! You knew a COG woman when you saw her on the street. Now you don't know which bar they just come from. Now the church is only fit for a "social gospel" (a place to get something to eat or get a job). Sir, I can go to Mc Donalds if I want junk food, but I can't go their to get Saved, Sanctified, and Filled with the Holy Ghost! At least your COG website is finally being honest and saying, (THE CHURCH OF GOD IS CHARISMATIC).

[W0RDGIVER]

Most of the largest churches in the denomination don't even use the name "Church of God" anymore. They're ashamed of their holiness roots. It began long before the females started wearing diamonds, though. Their hearts were full of pride and arrogance, and it began to manifest on the outside as well. Same goes with most other Pentecostal denominations, even the UPC. Sure, they still clad the outward appearance, but watch closely and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[troy1387]

You are right on. I have noticed the same thing about the UPC. Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall. The UPC outward appearance reeks of pride and arrogance. They use to dress simple and modest, now they look like Hollywood, even in a dress and without makeup. God help us. I also have noticed the even most of the smaller COG's are dropping the name. I do have a friend in Marshall, AR that called his church "Bible Holiness Church of God" The overseer didn't like it!

[mtkeys]

I grew up in the COG when they had the Holiness identity. The power of God was awesome. I also saw the double life that many of those holiness people lived. I've seen behavior from the top down that just crushed people. I like you have been very critical of the COG. I don't like the demoninational political stuff. But let us not be critical of the COG or others without the precursor of prayer. It's time to lay down our opinions and realize that people are dieing and going to Hell, not heck.

[troy1387]

What about the double life that most of the COG people live today. Sure there were hypocrits 40 years ago just like there are today. However, the teachings and principles of the scriptures have not changed. The pamphlet "Worldly Dress and Adornment" put out by the Executive Council under Wade H. Horton is full of scriptural references on the subject of modesty. I don't have to pray about how to deal with the COG. The scriptures are clear in their condemnation of such backslidding. REV 2-3!

[caleb31588]

The Church of God doesn't even preach sanctification or holiness anymore. They have traded the foundations of their church and the legacy of Tomlinson and other great Pentecostal pioneers for a new, contemporary charismatic approach. Where's the power of the Holy Ghost? Where is the soul-stirring gospel music? Where's the Bible truth being preached? Wherever it is, it certainly can't be found in COG training schools like Lee University.

[troy1387]

Amen Brother! This guy is so arrogant. When my wife and I see a COG ensignia we think about a church that backslid, a church that is dead, a church that use to have real power with God, a church that was separated from the world. Now we think about a rock concert and women swaying in tight blue jeans. It turns our stomach. I loved this church. I didn't leave the COG. It left me! We will raise our four children in a Old-Fashioned Holiness Church where they can have what I had growing up.

[mtkeys]

There is still power in the Church. Worship is not about the "soul stirring music".It's about how we live our lives 24/7 for God not just on Sunday. If you don't like the music then go to the old fashion church. Your kids will leave that church when the are older because they hear the new music on the radio anyway and most like it better. And if you really go to church to worship, why are you looking around at the women in tight jeans? Our job is to introduce people to Jesus. He will do the rest

[mtkeys]

There is a revival in the contemporary churches today. They are training new believers that would never have gone to the old fashion church like WE grew up in, and many are now becoming spirit filled. And get this... they are going into their communities and preaching Jesus to the unclean,,,,, just like Jesus said we should. Most old fashion churches are focused inwardly and how people look on the outside. God loved you and me when we were unclean.

[mtkeys]

The old fashion churches of today were the contemporary church at that time. There were no drums allowed. It was a sin to drink a soft drink from a bottle as was going to a ball game. Watching TV was discouraged. Times change. The message of Christ is still the same but the delivery is different to reach people where they are. I appreciate your opinion. But, I think that we should be a little more understanding of our brothers in Christ, rather than cut them down. We are all sinners saved by gra

[troy1387]

My wife and I have taught our children from birth that rock music is evil in any form. They HATE it! The can discern it a mile away. They love to worship and shout the praises of God. They are filled with the REAL Holy Ghost. I still don't participate in organized sports or have a TV. SO WHAT! My children are far better off. They don't miss what they never had. "Christian" rock only tantilizes the appetite of a young mind to indulge in real rock. That's how my brothers backslid. One is in Hell!

[mtkeys]

Hey Troy, your family is rare. I didn't think anyone but myself could live without the TV...lol. I'm glad that for yet a little while we live in a country where we can teach our kids the way of the cross and that Christ is the only way. I'm afraid that will change though. I saw a couple of your videos. You do a great job. No, seriously, you do. As a keyboard player myself, I appreciate the skill that it takes to play like that. Not many can do it anymore, including me. I can fake it a little.

[mtkeys]

I've shared the stage with such as the Hinsons, The Goodmans, Kingsmen, Blackwood Brothers, Oakridge Boys...before they went country. I was with them when they played one of their very last gospel concerts. I was embarrassed for them. I was on the road for several years and worked in the studios as well. Alot of the name acts of the day weren't even christians. They were just performing. I remember the first time I saw booze on one of their buses. It was more than one group.

[mtkeys]

I do appreciate your stance for holiness. I guess I'm a little confused though. How do you figure the different cultures of the world, with different customs, music, dress etc. I use to know a missionary in Africa. He told me when he first went there the women were topless because that was their culture. Nothing sensual about it. Cultures change. Did you know that southern gospel was originally a vocal adaption of Dixie Land music? That was the Blackwood Brothers and the Spears Family.

[troy1387]

The problem with the "Post Modern" COG is that they are trying to be "culturally relevent" in this wicked and adulterous generation. Paul never taught the church to be culturally relevent. The early church would have not been persecuted if it had just learned how to engage the culture of Rome and Judea. They stood diametrically opposed to their culture and affected change within it. Our churches do not affect any change in our culture and that is why we are facing JUDGEMENT sir.

[mtkeys]

Christ is relevant to any culture. God created music and dance. God is still doing a work in many local bodies. However, America is getting just what we as a nation deserve because the church has kept silent far too long. I feel we are not just in the last days but the final seconds of this age. I for one am alive in Christ. Not perfect, yet. I am determined to not stand before God with empty hands. Let us not be distracted from our purpose and calling. We are brothers in Christ.

[troy1387]

There is NO fear of God in the church. No true repentance from sin, but plenty of assimilation to wickedness. Women are topless oversees because of their wicked hearts. Don't tell me there is nothing sensual about it. I'm not stupid and neither are you. If it isn't sensual then why is aids and other sexually transmitted diseases running rampant throughout Africa? Why is it that when Holiness missionaries preach over there they get saved and put cloths on? Why has the salt lost it's savour?

[mtkeys]

Women being topless in Africa that I was talking about was thirty five years ago.The perception that I got from the missionary was that it was their culture and not sensual and some did put clothes on. Today, I absolutely agree with you 100% You are also right about no fear of God. I do know many though who have truly repented as is evidenced by their lives. Others cry some tears but their lives don't change. That's not real repentence. The church overall has been too silent. It's time to wakeup

[troy1387]

Go to thisdogbarks dott comm and click on articles and read my article there entitled "Is Contemporary Christian Music Really Christian?" I give a Biblical answer to critics such as yourself for why I am against most contemporary post modern music. It has nothing to do with how old the music is. When most folks think of contemporary they think of rock, pop, or hip hop. Just read the article and we'll discuss it then.

[mtkeys]

Thanks for replying. I promise I will take a look at your article.

[mtkeys]

I finally read your article. Very well written. However, I disagree with you on a number of accounts, I'll keep this short....the pleasant part that the scriptures speak of is the act of worship. The joyful noise doesn't imply melody at all. It doesn't say that the cymbals are accompaniment. They are a dominant part of praise. It is via our culture that we have put them in the back ground. ALL music can be worship when it is done with a heart of worship. It is men who have decided what is accept

[mtkeys]

There are varying cultures in the world, So God does have a sense of humor and enjoys a variety of people and styles of music in worship. God knows the hearts of men and whether their praise and worship is sincere. I can't be the judge nor do I want too. I don't enjoy all of the music that I hear as worship. But that is my taste and what appeals to my ears. God, however is not limited by flesh.

[holinesspentecostal]

You are absolutely right! YOUR god loves the worship of TOPHET! REPENT! Even plants die when subjected to this mess!

[holinesspentecostal]

Men go to great links in justifying their wickedness! Your god is the god of cultures, mine is the God of a KINGDOM! I was translated out of the "kingdom" (culture) of darkness into the KINGDOM of his dear Son! Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil!

[holinesspentecostal]

Of Course you disagree, just like the prophets of baal would have disagreed with Josiah about his utter detesting of this same worship. Jesus came to pull us out of our "cultures" and put us into HIS KINGDOM. You have made your culture his kingdom rather than forsaking all and following him. Your God is a rocker! Mine is not. We serve two totally different saviours. Mine saved me from rock, yours loves it. I'm sorry we are in totally different religions sir!

[holinesspentecostal]

The particular "act of worship" that the psalmist is referring to is SINGING! Sure all music can be worship. It was used for worship in Tophet and latter brought into the Temple. The NT clearly refers to singing and making melody. My culture sir did not write these NT scriptures. If they had, they would have wrote "screaming and making deafening noises to create an emotional response from the masses." The scriptures clearly define a "joyful noise". Did the cymbals drive the devil from Saul?

[holinesspentecostal]

Sorry, this is troy1387. holinesspentecostal is my wifes account.

[troy1387]

By the way, I don't listen to most Southern Gospel groups for the very reason you've just described. I know that most of them are totally lost. We are very picky about what we listen too. I have heard the same stories that you have just described and am well aware of the condition of this industry.

[mtkeys]

I don't either. I do know some of the old timers eventually did truly repent. I saw it in their lives and heard it in their conversation. I believe they will be rejoicing in Heaven.

[troy1387]

You contemporary worship, preaching, and lifestyle has not produced any revival. It has produced a lot of hype and hot water, but no real lasting fruitful revival. I judge a movement by its fruit. Brownsville revival did nothing for the community. Crime, drugs, gangs, ect, were just as bad, if not worse while that mess was going on. Real revivals change people. This neo-pentecostalism has no effect on the people. My children love the old time way because that is how they were taught.

[mtkeys]

Contemporary is a time relevant term. Whats in today is out tomorrow. Bach's christian music was considered contemporary in the day and to some heretic. Today it's classical. I can't see any of the music of the last 50 years becoming classical christian. As much as I enjoy Bill Gaither and Dottie Rambo's music. I will be surprised if it does. Fannie Crosbie's will though. And some of the traditional hymns. There is no such thing as christian TV. Just my opinion.

[mtkeys]

I have really moved away from my original thought. Listen to what this man is saying. I don't even know him, but he is preaching to pastors. His message is that it's time to get back to where the church started. Reaching people in need right where they are, Christ is more than a sermon or a feel good song. Sinners already know they are sinners. They don't need us to beat them up. They need to know that Jesus loves them and that we honestly care about their situation.

[troy1387]

This is where you are dead wrong. Most sinners don't know their spiritual condition because they have been told all along that Jesus Loves them. They sit in our churches every Sunday. Before you can get a man saved in this day and age, you must first convince him that he is LOST! The law is a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ. We don't preach enough of the Law to get a man lost in this hour. Jesus loves the sinners so much that he will send everyone of them to hell if they reject him.

[mtkeys]

I am not dead nor wrong.....lol. It is not the preaching of the law that draws men to Christ. It is the Spirit of God that does that. God doesn't send anyone to Hell. We are all BORN sinners. People go to Hell because they reject Christ as Savior, the ONLY Savior. People go to a Hell uninvited. We don't live under the law. Christ fulfilled the law and has provided us with Grace. We cant be surprised by dyeing in a flood if we send the life boat away time after time.

[holinesspentecostal]

Does't Christ in the end say, "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you"? I believe that "depart" is a command, and the place he commands them to go is the Lake of Fire. God will send every sinner and Christ refuser to a place of eternal torment! We live under the "perfect law of liberty". That is a liberty from sin and a liberty to conform to the image of Christ, not a liberty to sin. Jesus took the OT law to a knew level when he preached, Moses said this, "but I say unto you"

[holinesspentecostal]

Jesus didn't get up and preach, I love you; I love you; I love you; I love you; I love you; I love you; to the lost and neither did Paul. Peter essentially called the lost at Pentecost a bunch of murderers and 3000 repented. The grace of God even teaches us that "denying ungodlinesss and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world". It didn't come to teach us how to be "culturally relevant".

[troy1387]

You assume that the old time Holiness church doesn't reach the "unclean". My friend you are sadly mistaken. Our church is a thriving Holiness church in a very small community. It is full of youth and has a Christian School. The church runs 180-220. Many drunks and adulterers and druggies have been born again and sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost in our church. We have people who go to Little Rock regularly and reach the homeless with the gospel. We are saved from sin, NOT in sin.

[mtkeys]

That is good that your church does go into the community. Many churches are pretty self centered and do not even attempt to reach out to the unclean. I agree with your last comment. I would also add that we are in the world but not of the world.