Mormonmessages: Where Is Your Righteousness? - John Piper

[wildricky40]

I am good enough because I am a child of God! And Jesus said I was good enough because he is MY Savior and King !!

[orlovna2]

@wildricky40

As one sectarian put it, through posters that person made:

GOD DON'T MAKE NO JUNK.

Why that person had to talk like a hick from the sticks, in order to make the point, is a mystery, to me. But, the point is well-taken.

[llevijr]

Amen, 5 Star. Jesus is King!

[praestant8]

Excellent Video!

[a68rebel]

There are not 2 blades. Just ONE, Christ. He does the whole work of saving. There is NOTHING you can do of your own to gain your own salvation. It is ALL in Christ's redeeming power. Your works are a filthy rag.

[jrummy16]

While I agree that we fully need Christ in order to receive salvation I do not think that it is all on His part. If it is all on his part then does the unrepentant murderer or the aldulturer or the thief or the liar recieve salvation. No, rather they must repent of their sins (which is a work) and then they are entitled to the saving grace of the gospel. James said "Faith without works is dead, being alone." Therefore, one must believe and repent in order to receive the forgiving grace of Christ

[mtcanz]

Our response to Christ's gift (repentance) is not a work. The works come after repentance. (Acts 26:20)

Sadly, your use of words like "entitled" show how little you understand the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Yes, faith without works is dead -- just as an apple tree that grows no apples is a dead apple tree (or a tree bearing another kind of fruit). Works -- like the apples -- are not the MEANS of but the PROOF of the new life having been birthed in the believer.

[armoral]

@mtcanz awesome analogy!!!

[a68rebel]

The Thief on the cross was saved by Christ alone right before he died. He did not live a good life or even repent.

[orlovna2]

@a68rebel

Golly, gee! You seem to be like the [sectarian][name of denomination withheld] kid who attended high school, with me, between 45 and 50 years ago. He believed in the "Heavenly Pass-Fail System", too: just like you. And, most people know how poorly THAT works (and what "that" achieves), in those U.S. public school systems that utilize it.

[2morrowman]

The apostle Paul said, "What then shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid."

Christ said, "IF you KEEP My commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God".

Can we get to heaven just by believing in the Grace of Christ? I think not. Even the devils believe and tremble.

Christ said, "IF you love me, keep my commandments" Not every one that sayeth unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[mtcanz]

Not everyone that saith 'Lord, Lord'...

Read the rest of the passage, 2morrow. Jesus spoke that to those who were touting their "wonderful works".

Jesus commandments; love God with all heart, soul, mind, and strength; and one like it - love neighbor as self. Those born of His Spirit are born into love and will produce fruits/works of love. Your (and my) works apart from that birth are as filthy rags before a holy God.

A works-based-grace is not grace - LDS 3rd article is not biblical

[2morrowman]

The rest of the passage says," But he that DOETH the will of My Father in Heaven". That implies some measure of obedience and yes keeping the commandments. Many evil things are done in the name of the Lord, for instance turn away from living prophets that He has sent among us and ignoring new scripture and revelation given through those prohets. All done in the name of the Lord.

[anonazero]

@2morrowman unless the prophets are liars and wicked conmen.

ya know, like all the antichristian mormonism prophets.

[2morrowman]

I agree. If there were any anti Christian or anti Mormon prophets around we should not listen to them.

They might lead us astray or prevent someone from embracing the truth.

[anonazero]

every prophet from God is an anti-mormon prophet and every prophet from mormonism is anti-christ.

i hope this clears things up.

[2morrowman]

You forgot to say in your opinion which of course you are entitled to.

As for me it is my opinion that we have a living prophet of God on earth to day who receives revelation from Him. I am grateful for that knowledge. I am grateful that His Son Jesus Christ atoned for our sins. They are not just Mormon prophets, they are prophets for the whole world but the world at large chooses not to listen much like the prophets of old.

[anonazero]

actually in God's opinion which makes it fact because its written in the bible AKA the Word of God which clearly depicts everything we need for salvation and the life before then.

there is no such thing as a mormon prophet, there are just mormons who say they are prophets and do the work of Satan (a fallen angel, not the brother of christ as smith insists).

you are a sinner, you live in sin, in fact you've never done anything but sin. you need christ just like we do. seek him, not joe smith.

[ursowrng]

The bible is fact? hmmm, sure about that? Show me one society that accepts bible as a fact, and I'll show you a unlearned, misogynistic, homophobic, backwards developing people.

[anonazero]

you don't base your worldview on the bible so clearly i was not talking to you but rather someone who subscribes to the theistic worldview.

technically mormonism isn't theistic since they believe in more than one god but ya get the idea. they base it on the bible so it must follow that if the bible contradicts mormonism their beliefs have to be wrong if the bible is correct. if mormonism is correct the bible is the word of god which makes him an inept fool and not God.

[2morrowman]

Do you have any idea how we got the bible? Do you have any idea where are the missing scriptures that are quoted in the bible? Where are they gone and why don't we have them? Why doesn't a loving God who is never changing still talk to us today through His prophets? Don't we need Him any more? Are we so advanced that we don't need Him any more and we can make it on our own?

You say that everything we do is sin and yet you don't need God to talk to you any more. Surely we need HIm more than ever

[anonazero]

@2morrowman we got the bible through God using men. i didn't see you post any "missing" scriptures. im aware that mormons think there are missing scriptures when in reality that is just what mormonism teaches by sticking pages together and calling them "sealed".

we have the complete and authoritative Word of God that tells us exactly what is necessary from salvation, what we're being saved from, and why we dont deserve it.

mormonism disagrees... thus... is heretical.

[2morrowman]

Book of the Wars of the Lord Numbers 21:14 Book of Jasher Joshua 10:13; 2 Samuel 1:18 Book of the acts of Solomon 1 Kings 11:41 Book of Samuel the seer 1 Chronicles 29:29 Book of Gad the seer  1 Chronicles 29:29 Book of Nathan the prophet 1 Chronicles 29:29; 2 Chronicles 9:29 Prophecy of Ahijah 2 Chronicles 9:29 Visions of Iddo the Seer 2 Chronicles 9:29; 12:15; 13:22

[2morrowman]

Book of Shemaiah 2 Chronicles 12:15 Book of Jehu 2 Chronicles 20:34 Sayings of the Seers 2 Chronicles 33:19 An epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians 1 Corinthians 5:9 An earlier epistle to the Ephesians Ephesians 3:3 Epistle to the Laodiceans Colosians 4:16 Prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude Jude 1:14

[2morrowman]

Book of the covenant

Exodus 24:7 (may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus)

The Manner of the Kingdom, written by Samuel

1 Samuel 10:25

Acts of Uzziah, written by Isaiah

2 Chronicles 26:22

The "Acts of Abijah...in the Story of the Prophet Iddo"

2 Chronicles 13:22 (seems to not be the same as the Prophecy of Ahijah or the Visions of Iddo)

Is this enough? There are 3 posts

[anonazero]

so nothing is missing from the new testament i.e. the means by which we are to be saved from the wrath of God that we deserve for treason against God?

i recommend you reading galations chapter 1 in its entirety to know exactly how to see if its God talking and exactly how God feels about people that contradict his word yet say its his voice.

joseph smith is in hell for his crimes against God and has lead many mormons there also.

[mtcanz]

No, 2morrow, I meant the rest of the verse where it says, "Lord, Lord" (Mt 7:22); You must read all, not just take a sliver.

They say to Jesus, "...Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS?"

Jesus did not dispute this, 2M.

Works will be present, but it's the order you have tragically wrong. You think your works are "entitling" you to salvation. Works are the result of His finished work.

[2morrowman]

Obviously you haven't read the whole verse as it finishes by saying, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".

That implies that we must get of our high horses and not just preach the word of Christ and brag that we know Christ but that we must do something about it. ie serve our fellowman.

I didn't use the word "entitle" You just picked that from someone elses comment. Trying to catch a man in his words, much like them of old.

[mtcanz]

2morrow; first, I sincerely apologize. You are NOT the one who used the word "entitled", and I said you were. That is my careless mistake and I ask your forgiveness.

Regarding doing unto the least -- like so many other LDS, you seem to think that the one who believes in "grace alone" and salvation apart from works do no works. It reveals a lack of understanding or an unwillingness to hear the point.

The works are done FROM and as a RESPONSE to Christ's FINISHED work. (cont...)

[2morrowman]

No prob on the "entitled" bit. That is easily done when you are reading everyones comments.

As for the rest of your comments I agree with much of what you said. No amount of works can earn us a place in Heaven and true repentance brings about a change of heart and a desire to serve God. TRUE repentance requires more than a mere confession of belief in Christ .If we truly believe in Christ we will do the works of Christ and work out our salvation with "fear and trembling" as Paul also said.

[mtcanz]

Thanks for the grace, 2morrow. I'll try to be more careful.

On your post, I want so much to agree with you -- and almost can. But the works follow repentance -- they are not repentance themselves. Remember, I've said the works are the result - like the fruit on a tree.

Acts 26:20, Paul is saying to King Agrippa "....and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance."

The works come from the repentance - show that salvation has happened.

[mtcanz]

2morrow; problem is, as close as you are getting to the truth of repentance, salvation, and works, LDS teaching is so far from it.

LDS 3rd article: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind MAY be saved, BY OBEDIENCE TO the LAWS and ORDINACES of the Gospel."

MAY be saved - BY obedience? It's unbibilcal - the opposite of what scripture says. I once had to choose between the bible & another truth, too. I've never gone wrong choosing God's Word above all. Neither will you.

[2morrowman]

Isn't this interesting? We are not that far apart. Yes all mankind MAYBE saved through the atonement of Christ for the atonement of Christ is for ALL mankind not just a few. So how do we become saved? By believing in Him, repenting of our sins and by keeping the commandments. They are not the 10 suggestions, they are the 10 commandments and require obedience. Yes we're weak and continue to sin, hence the need for daily repentance. Every commandment we obey brings with it a specific blessing

[mtcanz]

Well, as close as it may have seemed, you just vaulted yourself far apart from the biblical position on salvation. No one is saved keeping the 10 commandments because you cannot keep them.

Jesus' commandments - He gave a new one(s); Love God with all heart, soul, mind, and strength; and neighbor as self.

Please read the bible and believe it. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be saved keeping the law. God is very clear thru Paul's writings. The law is a schoolmaster -- meaning it shows us our sin. (cont)

[2morrowman]

Why did Christ give commandments we cant obey? Why did He command us to be perfect? Why did he give the sermon on the mount? Why didn't he just say all you gotta do is believe in me and you will be saved so don't worry about the commandments? Our sins justify the curse. Our repentance invokes the Grace of Christ which satisfies the demands of justice. We cannot pay the price ourselves but Christ has paid it for us but we must repent. Grace AND works

[mtcanz]

You keep bringing up repentance as though somehow I've said there is no repentance. You keep trying to equate repentance with works where I've _shown_ you it is not ... from scripture.

Did you bother to read the chapter of Galatians? Or have you read this verse?...

Rom 6:11 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Tell me, 2morrow -- what is the above saying?

[2morrowman]

Matthew 16:27

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

I'm still waiting for Jesus to teach that all we need to do is believe in Him and nothing else, but he keeps contradicting Paul with all this talk about being rewarded and judged according to works and faith.

Shall we believe Paul or Christ?

[2morrowman]

Romans 2:13

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Don't just sit back and listen, get off your knees and get on your feet and be a doer of the word.

[mtcanz]

Romans 2:13

Goodness, you can't have read this chapter!! The 1st 2 chapts leave us ENTIRELY guilty before a perfect and holy God. I suspect you simply look for a verse with no regard for the context just to find something you think supports LDS. Well, this doesn't. Not by a longshot.

I'd love to discuss just how well you (like me) have kept the law. You haven't. You can't. Please, 2morrow, try to openly read Galations 3!!! What do you think verse 10 means?? Please answer this one.

[2morrowman]

Acts 10:35

"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Peter just taught that it takes faith and righteous works to be accepted by God.

[mtcanz]

Acts 10:35

No, Peter just taught that no one would be excluded from God's plan of salvation due to their nationality or race. Please read the whole chapter.

[2morrowman]

2 Corinthians 5:9-10

"Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Paul, the same Apostle that allegedly thinks we're only saved by grace, just testified that we are judged by our works, whether they be good or bad. Hmmmm...I see a pattern emerging

[mtcanz]

2 Corinthians 5:9-10

Context. This is judgment of works - not our souls for salvation.

More light is shed on this by reading 1 Corinthians 3, where Paul speaks of the works of men being judged, also, likening worthless works to wood, hay, and stubble that will be burned up, while good works are like precious stones.

But, for the believer who has nothing but wood, hay, and stubble in his life - even though they ALL be burned up - he shall still be saved if his foundation be Christ.

[mtcanz]

1 Cor 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13b ...fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; BUT HE himself WILL BE SAVED, yet so as through fire.

Saved because judgment of works is not for salvation!

[2morrowman]

Titus 1:16

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

This verse appears to be a condemnation to those who say that they believe, but do not obey His commandments. If you profess to know God, then disobey him, you are in fact Denying God

[mtcanz]

Titus 1:16

It's saying what I've said all along, 2morrow. If you claim to have had a conversion - yet there is no evidence of this - perhaps the conversion was a false conversion.

Again... the works are EVIDENCE.

But you cannot gain salvation by the keeping of the law.

Why haven't you addressed any of the scripture points I've made?

[mtcanz]

(part II)

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

and-

G3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

Please carefully read this book...and Romans. (cont...)

[mtcanz]

(Part III)

If you are trying to attain salvation through works of the law, the scripture (Gal 3:10 that I posted previously) says you are under the curse of the law, 2morrow. That's not an interpretation - that's exactly what it says.

continuing...

Gal 3:11 But that NO MAN is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:12 And THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Are you seeing this? (cont.)

[2morrowman]

RIght! Keeping the law without Faith in Christ is not satisfactory. Many good people don't kill or steal etc etc but they don't necessarily have faith in Christ. Faith in Christ leads to repentance, baptism a change of heart and as a result good works. But again, if I say I have faith in Christ but I don't love my neighbour or call upon Christ in prayer etc etc then my faith is as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbol. It is hollow and in vain.

[mtcanz]

I dread that day when you stand before God and tell him that part of the reason you should be allowed into heaven is because you kept the law.

Tragic.

[anonazero]

@2morrowman you can't keep the law. you've broken it and are under the wrath of God for it.

[mtcanz]

2morr, consider this prophetic picture of the relationship between the law and salvation from the Torah; but first, here are some words from Galatians (Paul):

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was ADDED because of transgressions, TILL the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

v24 Wherefore the law was our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ, that we might be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH.

v25 BUT AFTER that FAITH IS COME, we are NO LONGER UNDER a schoolmaster.

(cont...)

[mtcanz]

(part II) The law is a SCHOOLMASTER to bring us (or even "chase" us) to Christ. The bible says it was given to REVEAL our sin. Under the law we are CONDEMNED. Think of a dark room filled with dust that cannot be seen until someone turns the light on. The law acts as that light - showing our need to be cleansed.

BUT... once we see our sinfulness and repent and trust through faith in God's grace, Gal 3:24 says we are NO LONGER under the schoolmaster. It's job is DONE.

(cont....)

[mtcanz]

(Part III) Jesus' actual Hebrew name is "Yeshua", which means, "Jehovah is salvation". He alone is salvation.

In Exodus, Moses leads the Jews out of Egypt and to the promised land. However, due to an infraction, God does not allow Moses to enter with the Jews. He must watch from a distance. Instead, it is Joshua who is told to lead the crossing of the Jordan into the promised land.

Moses -- the one whom through God gave us the law...the law that is the schoolmaster.

(cont)

[mtcanz]

(Part IV) Moses, representing the law, could only take the Jews to the edge of the Jordan, but no further. Just as the law can only bring us to the foot of the cross -- but no further. In Exodus, it is Joshua who takes over where Moses (the law) leaves off.

Joshua.... an English translation of a Hebrew name, and that Hebrew name is .... Yehoshuah -- or "Yeshua". Joshua means "Jehovah is salvation". It is the same name as Jesus.

(cont...)

[mtcanz]

(part V)

God, in the OT, has given us a clear picture of the purpose of the law -- it cannot take us over the Jordan, but can only lead us to its banks. Only JOSHUA...or YESHUA .... JESUS can take us over. We are no longer under the law -- no longer pursued by it's curse -- once we put our faith in the righteousness and blood of Jesus Christ.

He said it all when He said...

"It is finished"

[mtcanz]

(part IV)

Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree",

Gal 3:14

that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Not works -faith. You're works will never be worthy of salvation, but if you repent & believe in Jesus' work plus nothing, you will be received as God's son via adoption in Christ (cont)

[mtcanz]

(Part V)

In fact, trying to add works to Christ's work itself needs to be repented of, 2morrow. It's an affront to what He's done for you.

I suggest you read that chapter of Galatians - and how it was written to a group who started to think they needed to work to keep their salvation. It's a corrective word from Paul (from God through Paul) to not switch to works-based what was done fully by Christ.

God bless

[mtcanz]

(part II) True repentance and conversion is a supernatural event that fills the believer with the desire to serve. Those works are not paving the way to salvation -- they are the result of it. Speaking for myself, there was such an unbelievable joy for what Yeshua/Jesus had done for me that I was dying to find ways I could serve.

We are born dead - with a flesh nature at emnity with God. Only in being born again ("anothen" which literally means "from above") can we have eternal life (cont)

[mtcanz]

(Part III) Paul himself said he was a "child of wrath" (Eph 2:3), meaning the God's judgment was hanging over him until he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ -until he was "born again".

You will never ever be able to do enough -- be good enough -- to gain heaven. Only as you acknowledge this, repent, and receive the righteousness of Christ -- His life in you -- will you be saved and live with the Father forever.

Your works up to that point will be nothing but fulthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)

[armoral]

2morrowman You are confusing the difference between justification and sanctification. Justification is our legal declaration by God upon on us, sinners, that we are declared righteous in His sight. Sanctification is the process we go through and our lives where the Holy Spirit makes us more like Jesus

[2morrowman]

We can never justify ourselves before God so I am not confusing anything. Justice would demand that we all pay the price of our sins but MERCY can satisfy the demands of Justice through the Grace of Christ based upon condition of our repentance.

The Grace of Christ means that we do not have to pay the price of our sins because we have repented of our sins and forsaken them. That Faith that we delevope in the Atonement of Christ motivates us to good works.

[ursowrng]

2morrowman & armoral

It's like watching two lord of the ring fanatics bicker over which type of elf is more elfish.....

[jrummy16]

I am Mormon and I believe, just like any other Mormon, that we are saved through the grace of Christ. While I do believe this fully I also know that we need to do the works that Chirst has asked us to do. C. S. Lewis used an analogy of scissors. One blade is keeping Gods commandments and the other is the grace of Christ. Salvatioin is attained by using both blades. A prophet told his son in the Book of Mormon that he was "redeemed because of the righteousness of his Redeemer [Jesus Christ]."

[GraceAlone71]

@jrummy16 - Salvation in Mormonism isn't the same thing as salvation in Christianity. For the Christian salvation means living with God in the presence of God. For the Mormon salvation is simply not going to the "outer darkness", but not living with God either. In Mormonism everyone is "saved", but not everyone receives exaltation which lets them live with God.

Mormonism try's to use the Christian vocabulary, adding their own meaning behind the words. Salvation is a good example.

[mtcanz]

"Salvatioin is attained by using both blades"

This is heresy. Salvation is the finished work of Jesus Christ, period. If you repent, believe, and receive that finished work, you will then do works _from_ that salvation. These works are the fruit of the tree -- not the tree.

The LDS third article of faith is complete unbiblical.

You cannot believe in salvation by grace and then define grace as being part works. It's like saying you have a square circle. They cannot occupy the same space.

[jrummy16]

The third article of faith reads, "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fouth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."

How is that "unbiblical"?

Also, believing and repenting (exactly what you said above) are the works that enable the grace of Christ in our lives.

[mtcanz]

jrummy, this is from the official lds website: 3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind MAY BE saved, BY OBEDIENCE TO THE LAWS and ORDINANCES of the Gospel.

Simply wrong. Christ died for us because man COULD NOT keep the law. Salvation is a FREE GIFT by grace (not by obedience) through faith.

Works do not lead to - but spring FROM salvation.

"by obedience" is very, very wrong...and an affront to Christ's sacrifice.

[praestant8]

Get in to the new testament and read the story about the thief on the cross. He neither had baptism, repentance, nor good works to assist in saving him. Yet Christ said "today you will be with me in paradise." It is about belief in Christ alone that saves us and not what we do.

[KakkoiGuy1]

AMEN!!!

[Fil0girl]

I read a memoir of someone who came out of mormonism one time. the most impressive thing I got out of the book was how she wore herself out trying to please God. by the time she left mormonism, there was little energy left in her.

[carpentersdaughter2]

Amen!!!

[awolLDSasap]

Great message testk.

I'll try to pass it around to the lds apologists.

[MegaDiarrhea]

I hope that religious cult followers, especially Mormons, are taking notes.

[topbon2ndvalve]

Amen and amen, a great message for all false religions (as well as many born again Christians who are hounded by false teaching within the Church).