like in the case of all things, you may not end up believing in the truth. Maybe not even the majority. For the longest time complete fairy tales were believed to be true by the majority [earth is flat]. Knowledge is not made by consensus, and a lack of consensus does not point to the evidence being inadequate, etc.
Why do some rational people not go to Christianity/theism?" I do not think others are irrational just for not accepting what I consider to be the truth. Nevertheless, I dont discount the irrationality of every person [including myself]. No one comes to any opinion on God/Faith purely based on the arguments, that would deny them their humanity. Obviously culture, society, up bringing, past experiences and so on have an effect. I think Christianity is the best explanation, but, in the case of god
Like I said rationality is a subjective thing. I am not saying that only rational people believe in God. In fact I am making the point that it is easy and in our nature to reject God and want to reject God. How do we rightly divide our emotional and bias presuppositions against a need to only accept evidence that fits our bias? Finding God is more about receiving a revelation from God that gives you the evidence you need then trying to fit God or the absence of God into what we want to accept
Rationality is a lovely mathematical term. Once you go beyond math you get into a realm of subjectivity.
Humanity is flawed and limited. Given original sin we are naturally set against God. You do not need to be rational to find God as emotion and faith can get you there. Yet it is the rational mind that knows perfection and understands perfection that also understands that God is the only path to that perfection. Faith does not require abandonment of the mind God has given you. notbeerlogic
I am asserting that we have a mind that knows this life we experience is lacking and not up to our expectations. This sense of what a utopia would be like and how we should all be treating each other is mentioned by Blaise Pascal when he talks of the duality of man. I use the common definition of perfection and when it comes to a state of being perfect we don't have it yet can fix in our minds what it is. I also assert that our duality naturally has a part that is opposed to God.
Sorry I forgot about our convo for so long. Anyway . .
"I am asserting that we have a mind that knows this life we experience is lacking and not up to our expectations"
Which is better explained by drives to better oneself and consistently reach for more, as per evolutionary theory those that are motivated to continually improve their situation are more likely to survive than those that get lazy the moment they have food water and shelter.
The fact is sometimes we ARE satisfied with our lives completely and totally without any appeal to god. It often does not last, although some are better at it than others.
If your assertion was true, the only way to feel completely fulfilled in life would be to search for god, and yet this is not what we see. In fact, many Christians search for god and find themselves still lacking, even in that department. Mother Teresa is the perfect example.
It seems to me that true faith in God based neither of belief nor logic. Sort of like how I know I exist. I know I exist. I can't prove it logically, but I don't accept it on faith either. It's just true to me. Not only that, but my faith is the basis for everything in my life; it's not a "part of" my life. True faith is entirely practical. I think recovering alcoholics in AA, for example, demonstrate true faith in God.
Oh I wasn't saying that. Not in the least. I couldn't, Wildcard is way too smart.
I was only arguing that there are certain types of theists that claim that rationality is an enemy of faith that should be avoided. This is a fact. I usually go out of my way to state that nothing I say is meant to broadbrush a particular group. I was actually asking for theist opinions on how they viewed the importance of rationality in their view, if I recall.
I run into those types all the time which is why my beliefs aren't expressed in the traditional manner. I always get into arguments with those types; although, there is a point to "not questioning".
Faith and the giving of money to a stranger idea is not good analogy--when it comes to Christianity. Faith begins small and then grows from there.You dont have to trust God with everything you have to begin a relatioinship with Him
there's a problem with your argument. Why is it that rationality doesn't always lead to God if God wants you to rationally conclude that He exists? For the same reason that the europeans in medieval europe rejected that the earth rotates, because if it did, then the oceans would all stop up on one side. In other words, rationality has no bearing on truth, it only bears on working paradigms of reality. They don't have to be true to work.
Your absolutely right, but remember the second part to the argument. If, as you say, "rationality has no bearing on truth" then why would God give you something that could, at no true fault of your own, lead you away from him? Do you claim God wants us to rationally conclude he exists? If so, why give us such a fallible tool?
I don't claim that God wants us to rationally conclude He exists, though one could come to that conclusion. I guess that last question isn't really for me then...
What i don't agree with is the way you poured that beer! Tilt the glass and pour the beer slowly against the side of the glass, gradually straightening the glass as it fills. Here endeth the lesson.
I'm sorry, but the idea that a person can attempt to use rationality to arrive at the conclusion that HIS god is clearly true and all other gods CLEARLY false is laughable.
Perhaps you could make that argument . . . in fact I think I would as well, at least in this world anyway. What I'm trying to do is show that rational though is important to our function but still falliable, and yet Christians believe it is either worthless\detremintal towards achieving salvation or a tool that can help you achieve salvation. Either of these are implausible on the basis of rationality, it being imperitive to our function but quite fallible.
The number one reason I stopped believing is Christianity is the hypocricy of "born again" Christians. I know there are hypocrites in people of all beliefs but if people who have the "spirit of Christ" live no better than people without it, then the "sprit of Christ" is nothing but an illusion.
I used to be one of those actually, and I think your point is quite valid. In fact, I'm going to respond to Jezuzfreek's latest video about this very topic, when he says that you need a strong foundation in Christ, because a sandy foundation will lead to a crumbing structure. Well I can point to numerous structures built on Christianity that turned out to be quite bad (as I'm sure you can).
I see your point that atheist do not believe that Jesus died on the cross and then go on to say "No atheist reject God". Most atheist I know reject God for his morality and because they don't believe. I know very few atheist that believe God is good, but can't muster belief in the resurrection of Jesus on empiracle grounds.
That was one point yes, that it isn't we are rejecting an offer, we just don't think there is an offer to take. But which group do you belong? Do you think that rationality is important and can lead you to Christ, or do you believe you must abandon logic and reason in order to acheive spiritual understanding?
Rationality can lead someone to Christ. The key word is "can" Most people Christians are either born in to it or join based on a spiritual moment/emotion (depending on what camp your in) A few are brought in with reason such as C.S. Lewis who was shown that Jesus was a historical figure and had to rethink his atheistic views. Reason is not the be all and end all. It can be used for good as well as for evil.
The question remains, should people follow their reason or not? My reason tells me Jesus was not the son of God, and that God, if he exists, has written no book known to me. Muslims logical thought process lead them to the conclusion that Islam is correct, and you know where yours went.
So while rationality CAN lead you Christ, it can also lead you away. So from you persepctive, would you recommend logic as a way to God? It could help and it could hurt. Funny how that works, isn't it?
Solely follow reason and reason alone? My answer would 99.9% absolutely not with .01% being It may be possible given the fact that I don't know everything in the world. I don't see it possible for a person to be a man of faith when they solely follow reason and rationality. Faith without some reason or vis-versa can be a dangerous combo.
That's what Martin Luther proclaimed. He said reason was the greatest threat to religion, that is must be abandoned completely if one were to connect with God.
There is a PBS series called "A Question of God" that looks at the two viewpoints.
C.S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud. It's a pretty fair rational discussion.
It's also possible to think Jesus of Nazereth was a historical figure and still consider the gospels as a collection of some history with mythical embellishments.
I think you'll find exChristian Bart Ehrman holds that belief after years of biblical scholarship.
I haven't seen the pbs special but I have read the book Questions of God: C.S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud. So you thought it was fair? Because the book seemed to be tilted towards the christian thinking, and I thought the atheist were misrepresented.
The historical Jesus with mythical embelishment is definatly a possibility that you could come to be reason. There are also may scholars (like F.F. Bruce) who come to the conclusion that these were not mythical embelishments.
I thought your Bodum Pavina glassware looked interesting and looked over some of the reviews. While your brandy glasses got good reviews, I saw a lot of complaints about breakage on the pilsner glasses.
I only use the pavina glasses for my bourbon. I thought about trying the other ones though. I just remembered how much it sucked to drink bourbon out of a tall wineglass. I'm glad I bought these now.
like in the case of all things, you may not end up believing in the truth. Maybe not even the majority. For the longest time complete fairy tales were believed to be true by the majority [earth is flat]. Knowledge is not made by consensus, and a lack of consensus does not point to the evidence being inadequate, etc.
DazedSpy2 1 year ago
Why do some rational people not go to Christianity/theism?" I do not think others are irrational just for not accepting what I consider to be the truth. Nevertheless, I dont discount the irrationality of every person [including myself]. No one comes to any opinion on God/Faith purely based on the arguments, that would deny them their humanity. Obviously culture, society, up bringing, past experiences and so on have an effect. I think Christianity is the best explanation, but, in the case of god
DazedSpy2 1 year ago
two camels in a tiny car. ;)
over18irish 1 year ago
Like I said rationality is a subjective thing. I am not saying that only rational people believe in God. In fact I am making the point that it is easy and in our nature to reject God and want to reject God. How do we rightly divide our emotional and bias presuppositions against a need to only accept evidence that fits our bias? Finding God is more about receiving a revelation from God that gives you the evidence you need then trying to fit God or the absence of God into what we want to accept
rusty2029 2 years ago
Rationality is a lovely mathematical term. Once you go beyond math you get into a realm of subjectivity.
Humanity is flawed and limited. Given original sin we are naturally set against God. You do not need to be rational to find God as emotion and faith can get you there. Yet it is the rational mind that knows perfection and understands perfection that also understands that God is the only path to that perfection. Faith does not require abandonment of the mind God has given you. notbeerlogic
rusty2029 2 years ago
"Yet it is the rational mind that knows perfection and understands perfection that also understands that God is the only path to that perfection."
So are you asserting here that only rational people believe in a perfect god? Or at least some version close to the god you believe in?
And also, what is your definition of perfection?
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
I am asserting that we have a mind that knows this life we experience is lacking and not up to our expectations. This sense of what a utopia would be like and how we should all be treating each other is mentioned by Blaise Pascal when he talks of the duality of man. I use the common definition of perfection and when it comes to a state of being perfect we don't have it yet can fix in our minds what it is. I also assert that our duality naturally has a part that is opposed to God.
rusty2029 2 years ago
Sorry I forgot about our convo for so long. Anyway . .
"I am asserting that we have a mind that knows this life we experience is lacking and not up to our expectations"
Which is better explained by drives to better oneself and consistently reach for more, as per evolutionary theory those that are motivated to continually improve their situation are more likely to survive than those that get lazy the moment they have food water and shelter.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
The fact is sometimes we ARE satisfied with our lives completely and totally without any appeal to god. It often does not last, although some are better at it than others.
If your assertion was true, the only way to feel completely fulfilled in life would be to search for god, and yet this is not what we see. In fact, many Christians search for god and find themselves still lacking, even in that department. Mother Teresa is the perfect example.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
It seems to me that true faith in God based neither of belief nor logic. Sort of like how I know I exist. I know I exist. I can't prove it logically, but I don't accept it on faith either. It's just true to me. Not only that, but my faith is the basis for everything in my life; it's not a "part of" my life. True faith is entirely practical. I think recovering alcoholics in AA, for example, demonstrate true faith in God.
TburgPatrick 2 years ago
Your arguments fail to apply to the way in which I believe in God.
5thWatcher 2 years ago
Yea I know. I used this as more of an "addendum on the topic" than a response meant to correct you.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Ah. Well cool then.
5thWatcher 2 years ago
Don't do the all theists are stupid thing. You're smarter than that. Besides rationality and logic are natural processes to all humans.
SonistheFatherofMan 2 years ago
Oh I wasn't saying that. Not in the least. I couldn't, Wildcard is way too smart.
I was only arguing that there are certain types of theists that claim that rationality is an enemy of faith that should be avoided. This is a fact. I usually go out of my way to state that nothing I say is meant to broadbrush a particular group. I was actually asking for theist opinions on how they viewed the importance of rationality in their view, if I recall.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
I run into those types all the time which is why my beliefs aren't expressed in the traditional manner. I always get into arguments with those types; although, there is a point to "not questioning".
SonistheFatherofMan 2 years ago
What evidence would you except that would disprove your present beliefs?
AAL 2 years ago
None. I am resolute in my beliefs. Thanks anyway.
SonistheFatherofMan 2 years ago
This my friends, is the definition of closed mindedness.
AAL 2 years ago
"there is a point to "not questioning'"
Oh I'd agree, they have their own reasoning.
I was trying to show how it really wasn't consistent, but I guess that won't mean much if they are against rationality.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Faith is irrational. So I meant that they have a point in a way regarding not questioning.
SonistheFatherofMan 2 years ago
Faith and the giving of money to a stranger idea is not good analogy--when it comes to Christianity. Faith begins small and then grows from there.You dont have to trust God with everything you have to begin a relatioinship with Him
ScrapGoldBass 2 years ago
See I've heard that you can't understand faith unless you surrender yourself to God.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
there's a problem with your argument. Why is it that rationality doesn't always lead to God if God wants you to rationally conclude that He exists? For the same reason that the europeans in medieval europe rejected that the earth rotates, because if it did, then the oceans would all stop up on one side. In other words, rationality has no bearing on truth, it only bears on working paradigms of reality. They don't have to be true to work.
gambleor 3 years ago
Your absolutely right, but remember the second part to the argument. If, as you say, "rationality has no bearing on truth" then why would God give you something that could, at no true fault of your own, lead you away from him? Do you claim God wants us to rationally conclude he exists? If so, why give us such a fallible tool?
HonestDiscussioner 3 years ago
I don't claim that God wants us to rationally conclude He exists, though one could come to that conclusion. I guess that last question isn't really for me then...
gambleor 3 years ago
No dissent here, agree 100%.
What i don't agree with is the way you poured that beer! Tilt the glass and pour the beer slowly against the side of the glass, gradually straightening the glass as it fills. Here endeth the lesson.
5* BTW
unixhead101 3 years ago
Christianity has quite a lot to say about philosophers and doubting, and certain thoughts being from the devil.
And thanks for putting the beer at the end so I could skip it.
sy1234 3 years ago
damn u and that beer..now I'm thirsty again!
kalsolarUK 3 years ago
I'm sorry, but the idea that a person can attempt to use rationality to arrive at the conclusion that HIS god is clearly true and all other gods CLEARLY false is laughable.
Wonko101 3 years ago
Perhaps you could make that argument . . . in fact I think I would as well, at least in this world anyway. What I'm trying to do is show that rational though is important to our function but still falliable, and yet Christians believe it is either worthless\detremintal towards achieving salvation or a tool that can help you achieve salvation. Either of these are implausible on the basis of rationality, it being imperitive to our function but quite fallible.
HonestDiscussioner 3 years ago
The number one reason I stopped believing is Christianity is the hypocricy of "born again" Christians. I know there are hypocrites in people of all beliefs but if people who have the "spirit of Christ" live no better than people without it, then the "sprit of Christ" is nothing but an illusion.
justintempler 3 years ago
I used to be one of those actually, and I think your point is quite valid. In fact, I'm going to respond to Jezuzfreek's latest video about this very topic, when he says that you need a strong foundation in Christ, because a sandy foundation will lead to a crumbing structure. Well I can point to numerous structures built on Christianity that turned out to be quite bad (as I'm sure you can).
HonestDiscussioner 3 years ago
It's strange. I've never experienced 'Born again' Christianity. In fact, much of the culture in the US is foreign to me with respect to religion.
UNFFwildcard 3 years ago
I see your point that atheist do not believe that Jesus died on the cross and then go on to say "No atheist reject God". Most atheist I know reject God for his morality and because they don't believe. I know very few atheist that believe God is good, but can't muster belief in the resurrection of Jesus on empiracle grounds.
plindy101 3 years ago
That was one point yes, that it isn't we are rejecting an offer, we just don't think there is an offer to take. But which group do you belong? Do you think that rationality is important and can lead you to Christ, or do you believe you must abandon logic and reason in order to acheive spiritual understanding?
HonestDiscussioner 3 years ago
Rationality can lead someone to Christ. The key word is "can" Most people Christians are either born in to it or join based on a spiritual moment/emotion (depending on what camp your in) A few are brought in with reason such as C.S. Lewis who was shown that Jesus was a historical figure and had to rethink his atheistic views. Reason is not the be all and end all. It can be used for good as well as for evil.
plindy101 3 years ago
The question remains, should people follow their reason or not? My reason tells me Jesus was not the son of God, and that God, if he exists, has written no book known to me. Muslims logical thought process lead them to the conclusion that Islam is correct, and you know where yours went.
So while rationality CAN lead you Christ, it can also lead you away. So from you persepctive, would you recommend logic as a way to God? It could help and it could hurt. Funny how that works, isn't it?
HonestDiscussioner 3 years ago
Solely follow reason and reason alone? My answer would 99.9% absolutely not with .01% being It may be possible given the fact that I don't know everything in the world. I don't see it possible for a person to be a man of faith when they solely follow reason and rationality. Faith without some reason or vis-versa can be a dangerous combo.
Viewer2k08 3 years ago
That's what Martin Luther proclaimed. He said reason was the greatest threat to religion, that is must be abandoned completely if one were to connect with God.
HonestDiscussioner 3 years ago
plindy101,
There is a PBS series called "A Question of God" that looks at the two viewpoints.
C.S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud. It's a pretty fair rational discussion.
It's also possible to think Jesus of Nazereth was a historical figure and still consider the gospels as a collection of some history with mythical embellishments.
I think you'll find exChristian Bart Ehrman holds that belief after years of biblical scholarship.
justintempler 3 years ago
I haven't seen the pbs special but I have read the book Questions of God: C.S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud. So you thought it was fair? Because the book seemed to be tilted towards the christian thinking, and I thought the atheist were misrepresented.
The historical Jesus with mythical embelishment is definatly a possibility that you could come to be reason. There are also may scholars (like F.F. Bruce) who come to the conclusion that these were not mythical embelishments.
plindy101 3 years ago
Do you always drink beer with that much head? Geez...
UNFFwildcard 3 years ago
Well I'm opening them at the end so people don't have to watch me drink beer to get to my argument, and head takes a while to fizz out.
HonestDiscussioner 3 years ago
BTW,
I thought your Bodum Pavina glassware looked interesting and looked over some of the reviews. While your brandy glasses got good reviews, I saw a lot of complaints about breakage on the pilsner glasses.
justintempler 3 years ago
I only use the pavina glasses for my bourbon. I thought about trying the other ones though. I just remembered how much it sucked to drink bourbon out of a tall wineglass. I'm glad I bought these now.
HonestDiscussioner 3 years ago