@vlatu PartT: ...trained over 90 students in the art of flying. Wilbur had given all flying duties over to his brother by May of 1909, never to pilot the very machine he had invented again, but it fit his character of not really liking to fly. Wilbur Wright was an engineer and he, almost entirely on his own, had developed the first effective lift/drift charts, developed the world's first 3-axis control system (something that has been used on every aircraft since) and the world's first propeller.
@vlatu PartS: ..it was too slow and ill-handling. The longest single flight ever made by Dumont was his March1909 flight of 8km, other than that he wasn't really very active with HTA machines. By March of 1910, Dumont announced his retirement from all aviation activities and his total accumulated time in the air with an HTA was 22min. Ironically, Dumont's last time in an airplane, ended in a crash, but as always Dumont's luck heldup and he wasn't injured. When Dumont retired, the Wrights had...
@vlatu PartQ: ..was simply too small and impractical, but even so, the Clement-Bayard Company of Paris liked it, so in April of 1909, they pre-built 50 M19 airframes, but by the spring of 1910, they had only sold 15 of them, so the C-B company dissassembled the remaining 35 and used the parts to build Farman II & III biplanes. Dumont also (Aug1909) entered the air meet at Reims with his M22 Demoiselle, but of the 36 enteries, Dumont was the only one that failed to qualify, because..
@vlatu PartP: went 145m across the ground, he retired from HTA activities and went back to his LTA machines and throughout all of 1908, the only thing Dumont flew was his No.16 airship LTA. Dumont did come back in Jan1909, 6 months after Wilbur Wright had stunned the world with the Wright's Flyer III "A", and with Bleriot's and Wilbur's help, the redesigned M18 mono-wing, that Bleriot had given him over a year earlier, was finally successful at the hands of Dumont. Dumont's M19 Demoiselle..
@vlatu PartO: During the spring and summer of 1907, dozens of French aviators were attempting for machines of every design and description, but only a handful were even moderatly successful, as it really boiled down to Delagrange and Farman, with Farman winning that year's distance record of 771m. Dumont had two very short hops in Nov1907, one for 203m (M17 biplane) and 145m (Bleriot's TypeIII mono-wing that Dumont would in 1909 call his "Demoiselle"). After his last attempt, where Dumont...
@vlatu ParkN:...a total disaster (Dumont's tractor biplane model 15) as it was so poorly designed and constructed, it just fell apart the first time he attempted to taxi it. There were less than 150 people at Dumont's M15 rollout and even less in April when he attempted again with his 14bis. The French public was now watching other French aviators like Delagrange, Viula, de Pischoff, Bleriot, Pelterie, and a Paris born Englishman, Henri Farman with his Voisin designed biplane.
@vlatu ParkM: behalf, noting that kicking Dumont out of the club now, right after they had just stolen the headlines from any future claims from the Wrights wasn't in the best interest of the club itself, nor with the honor of France. Delagrange agreed, but nobody at the club would ever trust Dumont again (except for Louis Bleriot), so Voisin/Pelterie told Dumont that for any future plans at HTA flight he may have, Dumont was on his own. Dumont's first HTA of his own design, was...
@vlatu ParkL:...the papers to headline Dumont's short power hop. During the first week of Jan (1907), while being interviewed for the LeMatin newspaper (Paris), Dumont stated he and he alone had designed the 14bis, which infuriated Voisin and Pelterie. Even worse, Dumont had broken a cardinal rule at the ACdeF by lying about a fellow club member. Leon Delagrange, the newly appointed President of the club, moved to have Dumont's club membership revoked, but Archdeacon intervened on Dumont's..
@vlatu PartK:...had "personally" observed since the formation of the FAI. According to the FAI, this was NOT the first flight on record, it was simply the first flight they recorded by personal observation (go to the 2Jan1909 issue of the British magazine "Flight" page 10-11, which lists the official FAI records current through 15Dec1908). Archdeacon, who had many connections in French politics as well as with the majority of newspapers, it was no problem for him to convince...
@vlatu PartJ: On 13Nov1906, Dumont had several attempts out at Bagatelle, with one hop of 80m, then finally on Dumont's 4th attempt, the wind had calmed so Dumont managed under full power to force a hop of 220m, but Dumont experienced that uncontrollable left roll agains so he shut her down with his 220m hop only requiring 21.5secs. The FAI officials were there and though they knew Dumont's flight was 80m short of Ader's flight, 9 years earlier, this was the first flight they...
@vlatu PartI: Type du Wright glider. Because the 14bis only had two wheels for Dumont to use for control, Voisin&Pelterie re-routed the cable normally used for his front mounted canard yaw, leaving the 14bis with no ability to turn. Pelterie's "ailerons" were not there for the purpose of banking, in fact they were intended for the opposite, to give Dumont the ability to "prevent" banking! This also put Dumont in direct violation of the Wright's USP #821,393 (Section 3, Item 14, lines 20-100).
@vlatu PartH: go! Finally Voisin believed that their problem was insufficient power, so after talking to his friend, Leon Levasseur, he got him to bring over his new 50hp Antoinette engine, which was the same size, configuration, and weight as his earlier 24hp engine they had been using. On 24Oct, things were looking better and Dumont did have one hop of about 50m, but Dumont noted an uncontrollable left roll, so Pelterie decided to add the ailerons he had designed for his 1904...
@vlatu PartG:..stick with boat oar shaped paddles on each end for a propeller, which in reality was just a big fan). Additionally, the 14bis lacked any kind of lift producing airfoils, as the machines wings had no camber. They had also designed it for "automatic stabilization" with its unusually high dihedral. Lastly, they only had a very rudimentary control system for ptich&yaw only. Voisin&Pelterie convinced Dumont to remove his No.14 envelop and they tried again in Sept, but still no..
@vlatu PartF: It was Pelterie that suggested they combine the Wright's glider design with the most successful of Lawrence Hargrave's box kites and by August '06, they had the 14bis ready. During Dumont's first attempts, he attached his last dirigible envelop to the top of the machine (there are photos of this), but his machine simply could not acheive sufficient speed to provide CoP for lift. The 14bis was a mis-design from the beginning, it lacked a propeller (they were using a simple long..
@vlatu PartE:...design and build a machine for him was given over to Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Pelterie, who each had designed their own version (Type du Wright) gliders, so by June (1906) they began work on designing and building the 14bis for Dumont. Because Georges Beancon (editor of the in-house ACdeF magazine, L'Aerophile) had received copies of the Wright's USPatent #821,393, including the blueprints of the Wright's 1902 glider, designing a working machine should be easy.
@vlatu PartD:..work, they didn't want just anyone at the ACdeF to try and get into the air, they needed someone that was already famous and the only person to fill that was their very own dirigible aviator, Santos Dumont, but there were two problems. First of all, Dumont had already publicly stated that HTA flight was a lost cause and was nothing but a fool's errant and secondly, Dumont knew nothing about designing an HTA! Convincing Dumont was left up to Archdeacon, but getting someone to..
@vlatu PartC: ..newspaper had any mention of them? Because of this, Archdeacon & Ferber believed the could save the "honor" of France, if they could just get someone into the air, publicly, with which they could splash the world's newspapers with. By doing this, they could overshadow any later claims by the Wrights. What Archdeacon&Ferber didn't understand, was that the Wrights were not just getting airborne, they were getting airborne and actually flying. For Archdeacon & Ferber's plan to...
@vlatu PartB: What Archdeacon wanted, was some way to confirm the Wright's Oct flights, so an ACdeF member, L.S.Lahm, cabled his brother-in-law W.S.Weaver (a cash register salesman from Madison, Ohio) to go over to Dayton and find out what he could. Weaver, 3 days later, cabled Lahm back and confirmed everything and promised to follow-up with a letter explaining all the details, which he did. Ferber & Archdeacon were still confused, if the Wrights had made these flights, why had none of the...
@vlatu Part3: Most revealing is the ACdeF archives, which shows that Voisin/Pelterie used the blueprints (printed June06 in the L'Aerophile) of the Wright's 1902 glider and one of L.Hargrave's (NZ) box kites to design the 14bis for Dumont. The Aero Club de France "officially" classified the 14bis as a "Type du Wright" for it obviously was copied from the Wrights 1902 glider. Too bad Voisin/Pelterie didn't copy the Wrights airfoil technology, maybe the 14bis would have worked.
@vlatu Part2: ...the British magazine "Flight", the official documents of the Federation Aeronautique Internationale, the club archives of the Aero Club de France, documents from the French Academy of Science, personal journals of several of the French aviators, personal letters, the Smithsonian archives, the French and US National Archives, and this list of credit/sources goes on and on for two pages in the index of this book called "From The Ground Up".
@vlatu Part1: I was sent a pre-publishing copy of this book and it is astonishing, especially the photographs (over 1,000 period photos are included). Most astounding are the number of documents accessed (over 31,000 period documents just concerning the Wright brothers, not including over 400 letters written by and to them). Most of the information came from the period newspapers, like the LeMatin, LeJournal, New York Herald Paris, L'Aerophile (official magazine of the ACdeF),...
@vlatu You have every right to your opinion, but you don't have the right to make up your own "facts". Soon, a new book titled "From The Ground Up" should be available, and it is the most comprehensive book ever published on the early pioneers of aviation, though this book does cover the full history of aviation, it focuses on those years between 1890 and 1912. This book is the copulation of 10 years of research by over a dozen historian/aviation experts from several countries and 2 continents.
@BearFlight Take it easy Bear, “my own facts”? What are you talking about? I read before some comments of Dumont that you wrote and probably you are right, I mean you did read a lot of documents and newspapers of that time , but I was talking about the first “official” record not the first to fly. FAI was founded in Paris, October 1905 then obviously they did not witness the Wright Brothers flights but correctly recognize “Flyer I” flight as the first sustained, powered and controlled flight.
@vlatu Part A: Several members of the ACdeF received encouragement by the then President, Ernest Archdeacon to form the FAI, but officially they didn't really begin to record "all" flights until August (1906). What prompted Archdeacon to encourage the formation of the FAI was after they (Ferber) received a cable from Octave Chanute on 8Oct1905, telling of the Wright's 4Oct & 5Oct flights of 33.6 km & 36.8 km respectfully. Ferber trusted Chanute's accounting, but Archdeacon wasn't so sure.
@BearFlight I was not talking about the Wright Brothers or their goals and I don’t know why you put that subject in the table. I was talking about the FAI “official” first record. It seems that Clement Ader managed to make a short hop at a very low altitude in 1890 but his “flight” of 1897 in his Avion III has been largely disproven (not “my own facts” Bear, the report of the military commission that had observed Ader’s tests in 1897 said it)
@BearFlight I was not talking about the Wright Brothers or their goals and I don’t know why you put that subject in the table. I was talking about the FAI “official” first record. It seems that Clement Ader managed to make a short hop at a very low altitude in 1890 but his “flight” of 1897 in his Avion III has been largely disproven (not “my own facts” Bear, the report of the military commission that had observed Ader’s tests in 1897 said it)
@vlatu I think one of the more telling things about the early history of aviation, was there were an estimated 180-200 witnesses to Dumont's 13Nov1906 powerhop (the most ever at a Dumont attempt at flight). When Wilbur flew for 38.6 km circling at Huffman-Prairie on 5Oct1905, there were 1,100 witnesses. When he flew at LeMans 8Aug1908, there where 100, but a week later, there were 30,000 people. Orville had 1,500,000 witnesses at Berlin in 1909. Do you suppose maybe the Wrights had something?
@vlatu ...de Pischoff, de la Vaulx, and a couple of dozen of others. Farman set that year's distance record of 771m in Oct, but earlier that year, Delagrange did have a hop of 330m.
On 31Dec1908, Wilbur Wright set a world's record when he recorded his 100hr of flight, while flying for 119 km non-stop, on that same day, Dumont's total time in the air with an HTA was 59secs, 20secs less than Orville Wright had done in 1903 in a single flight of his 1902glider, with NO engine.
@vlatu Santos Dumont was the least successful of all the members of the Aero Club de France. Dumont's ONLY awards were a couple of cash awards, one for power hopping the 14bis for a few meters in Oct1906 and another award for his slightly longer hop on 13Nov1906. During 1907, the only newspaper stories we've found concerning Dumont were the articles noting his failures. Dumont went back to his LTAs (No16 airship) for all of 1908. During 1907, it was Delagrange, Bleriot, Pelterie, Farman, Vuila..
@vlatu In January of 1909, Wilbur and Orville had so excited the world, Dumont decided to rejoin those with powered HTAs, but Dumont understood so little about HTA flight, it was Bleriot that personally designed new airfoils (ones that actually produced lift) and installed the Wright's patented control system, even including wing-warping and that machine which became the Demoiselle or Dumont's M19, was the first machine flown by Dumont capable of flight.
@Verdelufe You should also know that Dumont is NOT officially listed as the first to fly by the ONLY organization that records aviation flights, the FAI. They list Clement Ader of France as the first on 14Oct1897 for 300m. On 13Nov1906, Dumont was 80m short of Ader's record. Did you know that the Aero Club de France was going to throw Dumont out of the club for lying to the LeMatin newspaper in Jan1907? He claimed he designed the 14bis, but Voisin/Pelterie designed the 14bis not Dumont.
@BearFlight The Ader“flight” of 1897 was proved false when the report of the military commission that had observed his 1897 tests was made public in NOVEMBER 1910. Furthermore, National Aeronautics, the official publication of the “National Aeronautic Association” of the USA(Organization member of the FAI and official record keeper for USA aviation ) shows in 1939 the chronology of aviation records, the First Official Record Santos Dumont and his 220 mts.
@vlatu The NAA only corrected the FAI on their original claim in 1906 of Dumont's 13Nov1906 flight as the "first" flight officially recorded by the then newly formed FAI, NOT that Dumont's flight was the first. Today, the FAI "OFFICIALLY" states that the first flight of an aircraft demonstrating "sustained" and "controlled" powered flight was Orville Wright on 17Dec1903. As a retired British AE, I can tell you that Dumont's single attempt at flight on 13Nov1906 was NOT a demonstration of....
@vlatu ..of flight of a powered aircraft, but was merely an extention of those that had failed in Europe, up to that point, and had only proved that forward speed over design would momentarily allow someone to carry a machine a short distance. Are you aware of Dumont nearly getting thrown out of the ACdeF for lying to a reporter at LeMatin newspaper in 1907? Dumont claimed he had designed his 14bis and he had not, G.Voisin&R.Esnault-Pelterie did! Dumont's first actual sucess at flight occurred..
@vlatu ..on 13Feb1909 in a machine called the "Demoiselle" which was the mono-wing given to him by Louis Bleriot in 1907 (Dumont's Demoiselle was actually designed by Louis Bleriot in 1907 and was Bleriot's TypeIII MW). Dumont's first design, of his own, was his M15 tractor biplane, but it was so poorly designed, it fell apart the first time Dumont attempted to taxi. Dumont brought out his 14bis in April1907, but after two days he never did any better than bounce across the ground.
@vlatu In Nov 1907, Dumont tried one more time with a more powerful version of his M15, called the M17, but he had one single hop of 203m, then 3days later (17Nov) Dumont tried Bleriot's TypeIII, that Bleriot had hopped for 186m earlier in 1907, but Dumont managed only one hop for 145m. After that failure, Dumont retired from all HTA experimentation until 6 months after Wilbur Wright stunned the French and the World with the flight of the world's first "practical" airplane on 8Aug1908 at LeMans.
@Verdelufe What most people don't understand is that the Wright brothers were scientist/engineers NOT aviators and subsequently were (especially in Wilbur's case) quite afraid of flying. The ONLY Flyers that ever used the catapult were the Wright's personal demonstration models. They sold 62 Flyer "A" models in Germany, 15 in France, 6 in England, and 12 in the United States, do you know how many were sold with the catapult??? NONE! With the "B" variant (which had wheels) they sold 109!
Recentemenete foi feito uma réplica dos avião dos irmãos americanos, com motor feito na alemanha, tecido europeu, etc, e quando achei que iriam voar com essa réplica, simplesmente deixaram no museu da aviação. Essa réplica do 14 BIS voa, e isso que dizer que nosso avião voou, e o deles só planou depois de muita ajuda dos ventos.
First Airplane? That's the Wright Flyer from 1903. Santos Dumont was just another pioneer, not the inventor. His original "airplane couldn't even make a turn. Great job, who needs to make turns anyway? I'm from Brasil, and I know two North American guys, invented the airplane in 1903. A REAL airplane, that could actually make aturn.
Yes, asisted by a catapult! Got power? The airplane as a concept was not invented by any particular individual, but you know that already. I'm also sure you remenber Henson-Stringfellow's, Ader's or Langley's crafts. Powered by steam engines and unmanned. Who needs a person to pilot an airplane? Those were airplanes too, dear. Developed in the XIX Century, way before Wright's or Dumont's. One often forgets that what human has done is a mere imitation to what nature "invented".
@argat11 Actually, what the Wrights did was through dedicated test and research, was develop the base technology so everyone could design a machine to successfully fly. Wilbur Wright's original concept of "inherent instability" from the late 1890 was the beginning, then they discovered the failure of the previous experimenters in airfoil lift calculations, so they then designed a balance scale that could accurately measure the CoL/CoD which also considered the influence of camber & AR.
@Verdelufe Listen asshole. I'm not going to "debate" anything with you, just because there is nothing to debate about. Wilbur and Oliver had three years of advantage, they flew, and that's a fact. They flew BEFORE Dumont, and that's what pisses you off, isn't it? yes I'm from Brazil, and I have the decency of knowing who flew first. I couldn't care less about euro recognition, now, please, fuck off.
Os Wright não voarem em 1903. Eles só planaram. Eles inventaram uma pipa gigante que levava um tripulante. Com 283 kg de peso e apenas 12,8 de hp, eu afirmo que é IMPOSSÍVEL eles terem decolado por contra própia
No lugar onde eles estavam, com ventos de 30kt era muito facil fazer alguma coisa flutuar.
Eles não voaram em 1903, ninguem viu e nem mesmo depois de 100 anos a réplica do flyer voo.
O 14bis com 160 kg e 50hp voo com testemunhas. Peso/potência
Os Wright Brothers disseram que voaram 1903, mas ninguém presenciou ou testemunhou esse suposto vôo, ou seja; os Wright montaram o protótipo, apresentaram os projetos do protótipo e disseram que voaram, porem não tem nenhum registro.
Já o Santo Dumont voou na presença de todos!
O mundo inteiro reconhece que o Santos Dumont foi o primeiro a voar, e só os americanos isistem que foram os Wright.
a prepotencia dos americanos não os deixam enchergar que Santos Dumont inventou o avião,que a amazônia é nossa e preservamos melhor que eles que desmataram suas florestas mataram seus indios,que Sadan era melhor para os iraquianos que o terrorista Bush.
This replica has several "modern" advances, the power plant and prop, and the gear under the wing for stability. How can this even be considered as a true example? It is a distortion of facts.
Again with the catapult. I assume you know that the catapult was not used for the first flights?
What the Wrights have is the fact that the world conceded that they (Wright's) had beaten them (aviation community) not that this matters, but since you like facts. The catapult was a means to reach the correct airspeed to fly in a short distance. The rails prevented ground looping, which is not as common today due to the fact that most aircraft use nose gear.
Zeg-What about the airlerons? I don't see any on the 1906 14 Bis and yet there they are on the fake. Why not just reproduce the aircraft the way it was, not distort history and mislead the untrained public. It is a gross distortion of facts and a unreal recreation of history. In short a fake.
Please, show me the F-LIER 1903 flying. In your case, we accept if you improve the engine BUT keep the glider 1903 design or use the model 1908 BUT keep the 12 HP engine. It will be ok.
Flyer1lyer, a replica of the Flier has already been built. Check out the EAA's website. It was built to origianl specifications(even the engine), and flown in 2003 to celebrate the 100 year anniversary of it's first flight. I guess it is tricky to fly, but indeed it does fly. After the 1903 Flier's first flight, the Wrights sent a telegram back to their family in Dayton, Ohio, simply saying that it flew. There was no big celebration.
The 1903 Flier only used rails as a guide to get into the air. The Flier was the first controllable powered flight. They used wing warping. They later sued Glenn Curtiss when he modified the idea and started using ailerons on his wings. Because of the lawsuit, Curtiss moved the aileron between the upper and lower wing so it technically wouldn't be part of the wing. The Wrights sat on the invention from fear of it being copied. They were not exhibitionists at all, and were very private people.
Curtiss moved the aileron(curiously Henri Farman didn't) to between the wing. But his ailerons still moved in concert with the rudder to make a turn. This infringed the Wrights' patent which describes coordinated action of wingtip(warp, aileron etc.) & rudder.
the rights patented not only wing warping, but also 2 other ways of achieving roll control...one of which was hinged ailerons..long before curtiss copied them
Until they secured the Military contract. They sued Curtiss after he reneged on the deal that they both agreed to. He could have kept doing experimental work and paid nothing, but once he was building and selling, then he had to pay a fee. He copied their system of coordinated turning and used it as though he came up with the idea himself. He infringed on their patent and if it had not been for WW1 and Wilbur's death, he would have lost.
@vlatu PartT: ...trained over 90 students in the art of flying. Wilbur had given all flying duties over to his brother by May of 1909, never to pilot the very machine he had invented again, but it fit his character of not really liking to fly. Wilbur Wright was an engineer and he, almost entirely on his own, had developed the first effective lift/drift charts, developed the world's first 3-axis control system (something that has been used on every aircraft since) and the world's first propeller.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartS: ..it was too slow and ill-handling. The longest single flight ever made by Dumont was his March1909 flight of 8km, other than that he wasn't really very active with HTA machines. By March of 1910, Dumont announced his retirement from all aviation activities and his total accumulated time in the air with an HTA was 22min. Ironically, Dumont's last time in an airplane, ended in a crash, but as always Dumont's luck heldup and he wasn't injured. When Dumont retired, the Wrights had...
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartQ: ..was simply too small and impractical, but even so, the Clement-Bayard Company of Paris liked it, so in April of 1909, they pre-built 50 M19 airframes, but by the spring of 1910, they had only sold 15 of them, so the C-B company dissassembled the remaining 35 and used the parts to build Farman II & III biplanes. Dumont also (Aug1909) entered the air meet at Reims with his M22 Demoiselle, but of the 36 enteries, Dumont was the only one that failed to qualify, because..
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartP: went 145m across the ground, he retired from HTA activities and went back to his LTA machines and throughout all of 1908, the only thing Dumont flew was his No.16 airship LTA. Dumont did come back in Jan1909, 6 months after Wilbur Wright had stunned the world with the Wright's Flyer III "A", and with Bleriot's and Wilbur's help, the redesigned M18 mono-wing, that Bleriot had given him over a year earlier, was finally successful at the hands of Dumont. Dumont's M19 Demoiselle..
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartO: During the spring and summer of 1907, dozens of French aviators were attempting for machines of every design and description, but only a handful were even moderatly successful, as it really boiled down to Delagrange and Farman, with Farman winning that year's distance record of 771m. Dumont had two very short hops in Nov1907, one for 203m (M17 biplane) and 145m (Bleriot's TypeIII mono-wing that Dumont would in 1909 call his "Demoiselle"). After his last attempt, where Dumont...
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu ParkN:...a total disaster (Dumont's tractor biplane model 15) as it was so poorly designed and constructed, it just fell apart the first time he attempted to taxi it. There were less than 150 people at Dumont's M15 rollout and even less in April when he attempted again with his 14bis. The French public was now watching other French aviators like Delagrange, Viula, de Pischoff, Bleriot, Pelterie, and a Paris born Englishman, Henri Farman with his Voisin designed biplane.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu ParkM: behalf, noting that kicking Dumont out of the club now, right after they had just stolen the headlines from any future claims from the Wrights wasn't in the best interest of the club itself, nor with the honor of France. Delagrange agreed, but nobody at the club would ever trust Dumont again (except for Louis Bleriot), so Voisin/Pelterie told Dumont that for any future plans at HTA flight he may have, Dumont was on his own. Dumont's first HTA of his own design, was...
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu ParkL:...the papers to headline Dumont's short power hop. During the first week of Jan (1907), while being interviewed for the LeMatin newspaper (Paris), Dumont stated he and he alone had designed the 14bis, which infuriated Voisin and Pelterie. Even worse, Dumont had broken a cardinal rule at the ACdeF by lying about a fellow club member. Leon Delagrange, the newly appointed President of the club, moved to have Dumont's club membership revoked, but Archdeacon intervened on Dumont's..
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartK:...had "personally" observed since the formation of the FAI. According to the FAI, this was NOT the first flight on record, it was simply the first flight they recorded by personal observation (go to the 2Jan1909 issue of the British magazine "Flight" page 10-11, which lists the official FAI records current through 15Dec1908). Archdeacon, who had many connections in French politics as well as with the majority of newspapers, it was no problem for him to convince...
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartJ: On 13Nov1906, Dumont had several attempts out at Bagatelle, with one hop of 80m, then finally on Dumont's 4th attempt, the wind had calmed so Dumont managed under full power to force a hop of 220m, but Dumont experienced that uncontrollable left roll agains so he shut her down with his 220m hop only requiring 21.5secs. The FAI officials were there and though they knew Dumont's flight was 80m short of Ader's flight, 9 years earlier, this was the first flight they...
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartI: Type du Wright glider. Because the 14bis only had two wheels for Dumont to use for control, Voisin&Pelterie re-routed the cable normally used for his front mounted canard yaw, leaving the 14bis with no ability to turn. Pelterie's "ailerons" were not there for the purpose of banking, in fact they were intended for the opposite, to give Dumont the ability to "prevent" banking! This also put Dumont in direct violation of the Wright's USP #821,393 (Section 3, Item 14, lines 20-100).
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartH: go! Finally Voisin believed that their problem was insufficient power, so after talking to his friend, Leon Levasseur, he got him to bring over his new 50hp Antoinette engine, which was the same size, configuration, and weight as his earlier 24hp engine they had been using. On 24Oct, things were looking better and Dumont did have one hop of about 50m, but Dumont noted an uncontrollable left roll, so Pelterie decided to add the ailerons he had designed for his 1904...
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartG:..stick with boat oar shaped paddles on each end for a propeller, which in reality was just a big fan). Additionally, the 14bis lacked any kind of lift producing airfoils, as the machines wings had no camber. They had also designed it for "automatic stabilization" with its unusually high dihedral. Lastly, they only had a very rudimentary control system for ptich&yaw only. Voisin&Pelterie convinced Dumont to remove his No.14 envelop and they tried again in Sept, but still no..
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartF: It was Pelterie that suggested they combine the Wright's glider design with the most successful of Lawrence Hargrave's box kites and by August '06, they had the 14bis ready. During Dumont's first attempts, he attached his last dirigible envelop to the top of the machine (there are photos of this), but his machine simply could not acheive sufficient speed to provide CoP for lift. The 14bis was a mis-design from the beginning, it lacked a propeller (they were using a simple long..
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartE:...design and build a machine for him was given over to Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Pelterie, who each had designed their own version (Type du Wright) gliders, so by June (1906) they began work on designing and building the 14bis for Dumont. Because Georges Beancon (editor of the in-house ACdeF magazine, L'Aerophile) had received copies of the Wright's USPatent #821,393, including the blueprints of the Wright's 1902 glider, designing a working machine should be easy.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartD:..work, they didn't want just anyone at the ACdeF to try and get into the air, they needed someone that was already famous and the only person to fill that was their very own dirigible aviator, Santos Dumont, but there were two problems. First of all, Dumont had already publicly stated that HTA flight was a lost cause and was nothing but a fool's errant and secondly, Dumont knew nothing about designing an HTA! Convincing Dumont was left up to Archdeacon, but getting someone to..
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartC: ..newspaper had any mention of them? Because of this, Archdeacon & Ferber believed the could save the "honor" of France, if they could just get someone into the air, publicly, with which they could splash the world's newspapers with. By doing this, they could overshadow any later claims by the Wrights. What Archdeacon&Ferber didn't understand, was that the Wrights were not just getting airborne, they were getting airborne and actually flying. For Archdeacon & Ferber's plan to...
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu PartB: What Archdeacon wanted, was some way to confirm the Wright's Oct flights, so an ACdeF member, L.S.Lahm, cabled his brother-in-law W.S.Weaver (a cash register salesman from Madison, Ohio) to go over to Dayton and find out what he could. Weaver, 3 days later, cabled Lahm back and confirmed everything and promised to follow-up with a letter explaining all the details, which he did. Ferber & Archdeacon were still confused, if the Wrights had made these flights, why had none of the...
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu Part3: Most revealing is the ACdeF archives, which shows that Voisin/Pelterie used the blueprints (printed June06 in the L'Aerophile) of the Wright's 1902 glider and one of L.Hargrave's (NZ) box kites to design the 14bis for Dumont. The Aero Club de France "officially" classified the 14bis as a "Type du Wright" for it obviously was copied from the Wrights 1902 glider. Too bad Voisin/Pelterie didn't copy the Wrights airfoil technology, maybe the 14bis would have worked.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu Part2: ...the British magazine "Flight", the official documents of the Federation Aeronautique Internationale, the club archives of the Aero Club de France, documents from the French Academy of Science, personal journals of several of the French aviators, personal letters, the Smithsonian archives, the French and US National Archives, and this list of credit/sources goes on and on for two pages in the index of this book called "From The Ground Up".
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu Part1: I was sent a pre-publishing copy of this book and it is astonishing, especially the photographs (over 1,000 period photos are included). Most astounding are the number of documents accessed (over 31,000 period documents just concerning the Wright brothers, not including over 400 letters written by and to them). Most of the information came from the period newspapers, like the LeMatin, LeJournal, New York Herald Paris, L'Aerophile (official magazine of the ACdeF),...
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu You have every right to your opinion, but you don't have the right to make up your own "facts". Soon, a new book titled "From The Ground Up" should be available, and it is the most comprehensive book ever published on the early pioneers of aviation, though this book does cover the full history of aviation, it focuses on those years between 1890 and 1912. This book is the copulation of 10 years of research by over a dozen historian/aviation experts from several countries and 2 continents.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@BearFlight Take it easy Bear, “my own facts”? What are you talking about? I read before some comments of Dumont that you wrote and probably you are right, I mean you did read a lot of documents and newspapers of that time , but I was talking about the first “official” record not the first to fly. FAI was founded in Paris, October 1905 then obviously they did not witness the Wright Brothers flights but correctly recognize “Flyer I” flight as the first sustained, powered and controlled flight.
vlatu 2 months ago
@vlatu Part A: Several members of the ACdeF received encouragement by the then President, Ernest Archdeacon to form the FAI, but officially they didn't really begin to record "all" flights until August (1906). What prompted Archdeacon to encourage the formation of the FAI was after they (Ferber) received a cable from Octave Chanute on 8Oct1905, telling of the Wright's 4Oct & 5Oct flights of 33.6 km & 36.8 km respectfully. Ferber trusted Chanute's accounting, but Archdeacon wasn't so sure.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@BearFlight I was not talking about the Wright Brothers or their goals and I don’t know why you put that subject in the table. I was talking about the FAI “official” first record. It seems that Clement Ader managed to make a short hop at a very low altitude in 1890 but his “flight” of 1897 in his Avion III has been largely disproven (not “my own facts” Bear, the report of the military commission that had observed Ader’s tests in 1897 said it)
vlatu 2 months ago
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@BearFlight I was not talking about the Wright Brothers or their goals and I don’t know why you put that subject in the table. I was talking about the FAI “official” first record. It seems that Clement Ader managed to make a short hop at a very low altitude in 1890 but his “flight” of 1897 in his Avion III has been largely disproven (not “my own facts” Bear, the report of the military commission that had observed Ader’s tests in 1897 said it)
vlatu 2 months ago
@vlatu I think one of the more telling things about the early history of aviation, was there were an estimated 180-200 witnesses to Dumont's 13Nov1906 powerhop (the most ever at a Dumont attempt at flight). When Wilbur flew for 38.6 km circling at Huffman-Prairie on 5Oct1905, there were 1,100 witnesses. When he flew at LeMans 8Aug1908, there where 100, but a week later, there were 30,000 people. Orville had 1,500,000 witnesses at Berlin in 1909. Do you suppose maybe the Wrights had something?
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu ...de Pischoff, de la Vaulx, and a couple of dozen of others. Farman set that year's distance record of 771m in Oct, but earlier that year, Delagrange did have a hop of 330m.
On 31Dec1908, Wilbur Wright set a world's record when he recorded his 100hr of flight, while flying for 119 km non-stop, on that same day, Dumont's total time in the air with an HTA was 59secs, 20secs less than Orville Wright had done in 1903 in a single flight of his 1902glider, with NO engine.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu Santos Dumont was the least successful of all the members of the Aero Club de France. Dumont's ONLY awards were a couple of cash awards, one for power hopping the 14bis for a few meters in Oct1906 and another award for his slightly longer hop on 13Nov1906. During 1907, the only newspaper stories we've found concerning Dumont were the articles noting his failures. Dumont went back to his LTAs (No16 airship) for all of 1908. During 1907, it was Delagrange, Bleriot, Pelterie, Farman, Vuila..
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu In January of 1909, Wilbur and Orville had so excited the world, Dumont decided to rejoin those with powered HTAs, but Dumont understood so little about HTA flight, it was Bleriot that personally designed new airfoils (ones that actually produced lift) and installed the Wright's patented control system, even including wing-warping and that machine which became the Demoiselle or Dumont's M19, was the first machine flown by Dumont capable of flight.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@Verdelufe You should also know that Dumont is NOT officially listed as the first to fly by the ONLY organization that records aviation flights, the FAI. They list Clement Ader of France as the first on 14Oct1897 for 300m. On 13Nov1906, Dumont was 80m short of Ader's record. Did you know that the Aero Club de France was going to throw Dumont out of the club for lying to the LeMatin newspaper in Jan1907? He claimed he designed the 14bis, but Voisin/Pelterie designed the 14bis not Dumont.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@BearFlight You speak softly, and carry a big stick. I like when someone know better than me... and others. Thanks BearFlight! Ar.
argat11 2 months ago
@BearFlight The Ader“flight” of 1897 was proved false when the report of the military commission that had observed his 1897 tests was made public in NOVEMBER 1910. Furthermore, National Aeronautics, the official publication of the “National Aeronautic Association” of the USA(Organization member of the FAI and official record keeper for USA aviation ) shows in 1939 the chronology of aviation records, the First Official Record Santos Dumont and his 220 mts.
vlatu 2 months ago
@vlatu The NAA only corrected the FAI on their original claim in 1906 of Dumont's 13Nov1906 flight as the "first" flight officially recorded by the then newly formed FAI, NOT that Dumont's flight was the first. Today, the FAI "OFFICIALLY" states that the first flight of an aircraft demonstrating "sustained" and "controlled" powered flight was Orville Wright on 17Dec1903. As a retired British AE, I can tell you that Dumont's single attempt at flight on 13Nov1906 was NOT a demonstration of....
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu ..of flight of a powered aircraft, but was merely an extention of those that had failed in Europe, up to that point, and had only proved that forward speed over design would momentarily allow someone to carry a machine a short distance. Are you aware of Dumont nearly getting thrown out of the ACdeF for lying to a reporter at LeMatin newspaper in 1907? Dumont claimed he had designed his 14bis and he had not, G.Voisin&R.Esnault-Pelterie did! Dumont's first actual sucess at flight occurred..
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu ..on 13Feb1909 in a machine called the "Demoiselle" which was the mono-wing given to him by Louis Bleriot in 1907 (Dumont's Demoiselle was actually designed by Louis Bleriot in 1907 and was Bleriot's TypeIII MW). Dumont's first design, of his own, was his M15 tractor biplane, but it was so poorly designed, it fell apart the first time Dumont attempted to taxi. Dumont brought out his 14bis in April1907, but after two days he never did any better than bounce across the ground.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@vlatu In Nov 1907, Dumont tried one more time with a more powerful version of his M15, called the M17, but he had one single hop of 203m, then 3days later (17Nov) Dumont tried Bleriot's TypeIII, that Bleriot had hopped for 186m earlier in 1907, but Dumont managed only one hop for 145m. After that failure, Dumont retired from all HTA experimentation until 6 months after Wilbur Wright stunned the French and the World with the flight of the world's first "practical" airplane on 8Aug1908 at LeMans.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@Verdelufe What most people don't understand is that the Wright brothers were scientist/engineers NOT aviators and subsequently were (especially in Wilbur's case) quite afraid of flying. The ONLY Flyers that ever used the catapult were the Wright's personal demonstration models. They sold 62 Flyer "A" models in Germany, 15 in France, 6 in England, and 12 in the United States, do you know how many were sold with the catapult??? NONE! With the "B" variant (which had wheels) they sold 109!
BearFlight 2 months ago
mt dashora
Emirates962 8 months ago
Recentemenete foi feito uma réplica dos avião dos irmãos americanos, com motor feito na alemanha, tecido europeu, etc, e quando achei que iriam voar com essa réplica, simplesmente deixaram no museu da aviação. Essa réplica do 14 BIS voa, e isso que dizer que nosso avião voou, e o deles só planou depois de muita ajuda dos ventos.
2002Amauri 11 months ago
chuuuuuuuuuuuuupa americanosssssssssss
drjaspion 1 year ago
First Airplane? That's the Wright Flyer from 1903. Santos Dumont was just another pioneer, not the inventor. His original "airplane couldn't even make a turn. Great job, who needs to make turns anyway? I'm from Brasil, and I know two North American guys, invented the airplane in 1903. A REAL airplane, that could actually make aturn.
lovefordgalaxie 1 year ago
Yes, asisted by a catapult! Got power? The airplane as a concept was not invented by any particular individual, but you know that already. I'm also sure you remenber Henson-Stringfellow's, Ader's or Langley's crafts. Powered by steam engines and unmanned. Who needs a person to pilot an airplane? Those were airplanes too, dear. Developed in the XIX Century, way before Wright's or Dumont's. One often forgets that what human has done is a mere imitation to what nature "invented".
argat11 1 year ago
@argat11 Actually, what the Wrights did was through dedicated test and research, was develop the base technology so everyone could design a machine to successfully fly. Wilbur Wright's original concept of "inherent instability" from the late 1890 was the beginning, then they discovered the failure of the previous experimenters in airfoil lift calculations, so they then designed a balance scale that could accurately measure the CoL/CoD which also considered the influence of camber & AR.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@lovefordgalaxie with a catapult even the stones fly
Daniel260289 1 year ago
@Daniel260289 The Stones fly everyday, in their airplane, thanks to the Wright Brothers.
lovefordgalaxie 1 year ago
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Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Yes, você está certo, realmente, e o Papai Noel, e o Coelhinho da Páscoa ajudaram o Dumont, agora lembrei!!!!!!
lovefordgalaxie 7 months ago
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Verdelufe 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Listen asshole. I'm not going to "debate" anything with you, just because there is nothing to debate about. Wilbur and Oliver had three years of advantage, they flew, and that's a fact. They flew BEFORE Dumont, and that's what pisses you off, isn't it? yes I'm from Brazil, and I have the decency of knowing who flew first. I couldn't care less about euro recognition, now, please, fuck off.
lovefordgalaxie 7 months ago
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luifever 7 months ago
@luifever Yes, yes, talk to my hand now asshole. Can't handle loosing? Do like your beloved looser Dumont, and kill yourself.
lovefordgalaxie 7 months ago
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Verdelufe 7 months ago
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Verdelufe 7 months ago
@Verdelufe é sua merda em ingles nao tem '' it's not your beach'' Que vergonha, fica usando o tradutor... e eu que sou crianca te humilho
MrMimojr 7 months ago
Nosso Gênio Brasileiro!
paradoxoparadoxo 1 year ago
Interesting. A copy of the first European aircraft aircraft to fly, if you do not count Vuia and Ellehammer. Only 3 years after Wright.
Interessante. Uma cópia da aeronave aeronaves primeiro europeu a voar, se você não contar Vuia e Ellehammer. Apenas 3 anos depois de Wright.
sablatnic 2 years ago
esquisito !! andava de ré
wendebadboy 2 years ago
Excelente!!
joaoc130 2 years ago
Os Wright não voarem em 1903. Eles só planaram. Eles inventaram uma pipa gigante que levava um tripulante. Com 283 kg de peso e apenas 12,8 de hp, eu afirmo que é IMPOSSÍVEL eles terem decolado por contra própia
No lugar onde eles estavam, com ventos de 30kt era muito facil fazer alguma coisa flutuar.
Eles não voaram em 1903, ninguem viu e nem mesmo depois de 100 anos a réplica do flyer voo.
O 14bis com 160 kg e 50hp voo com testemunhas. Peso/potência
matiasbsm 2 years ago
mateus2001
Os Wright Brothers disseram que voaram 1903, mas ninguém presenciou ou testemunhou esse suposto vôo, ou seja; os Wright montaram o protótipo, apresentaram os projetos do protótipo e disseram que voaram, porem não tem nenhum registro.
Já o Santo Dumont voou na presença de todos!
O mundo inteiro reconhece que o Santos Dumont foi o primeiro a voar, e só os americanos isistem que foram os Wright.
salmirelias 2 years ago
Wright Brothers voaram em 1903.Santos Dumont em 1906.Ele contribuiu como muitos outros,mas nao foi o primeiro.O proprio Dumont reconheceu isso.
mateus2001 2 years ago
a prepotencia dos americanos não os deixam enchergar que Santos Dumont inventou o avião,que a amazônia é nossa e preservamos melhor que eles que desmataram suas florestas mataram seus indios,que Sadan era melhor para os iraquianos que o terrorista Bush.
joselucasdenada2008 2 years ago
pareçe feito de papel
dannycena 3 years ago 2
No catapults,only dunes....and 5 peoples(deaths after the weekend).LoL..
Leolennon 4 years ago
We have probes. To mutch!!!
Zegera 4 years ago
pqp eu sou um bosta,perdi isso ao vivo!!!
gio31brasil 4 years ago
Great achievement!!! This proves once again that Alberto Santos-Dumont is the inventor of the heavier-than-air.
pumapreto 4 years ago
This replica has several "modern" advances, the power plant and prop, and the gear under the wing for stability. How can this even be considered as a true example? It is a distortion of facts.
warp13 4 years ago
We have facts, documents, photos, videos of 1906. And the testemonial of 60.000 peoples in France. No lies. No words of 5 people. No catapult.
Zegera 4 years ago
Again with the catapult. I assume you know that the catapult was not used for the first flights?
What the Wrights have is the fact that the world conceded that they (Wright's) had beaten them (aviation community) not that this matters, but since you like facts. The catapult was a means to reach the correct airspeed to fly in a short distance. The rails prevented ground looping, which is not as common today due to the fact that most aircraft use nose gear.
warp13 4 years ago
Zeg-What about the airlerons? I don't see any on the 1906 14 Bis and yet there they are on the fake. Why not just reproduce the aircraft the way it was, not distort history and mislead the untrained public. It is a gross distortion of facts and a unreal recreation of history. In short a fake.
warp13 4 years ago
Please, show me the F-LIER 1903 flying. In your case, we accept if you improve the engine BUT keep the glider 1903 design or use the model 1908 BUT keep the 12 HP engine. It will be ok.
flyer1lyer 4 years ago
Flyer1lyer, a replica of the Flier has already been built. Check out the EAA's website. It was built to origianl specifications(even the engine), and flown in 2003 to celebrate the 100 year anniversary of it's first flight. I guess it is tricky to fly, but indeed it does fly. After the 1903 Flier's first flight, the Wrights sent a telegram back to their family in Dayton, Ohio, simply saying that it flew. There was no big celebration.
arnold02000 3 years ago
The 1903 Flier only used rails as a guide to get into the air. The Flier was the first controllable powered flight. They used wing warping. They later sued Glenn Curtiss when he modified the idea and started using ailerons on his wings. Because of the lawsuit, Curtiss moved the aileron between the upper and lower wing so it technically wouldn't be part of the wing. The Wrights sat on the invention from fear of it being copied. They were not exhibitionists at all, and were very private people.
arnold02000 3 years ago
Curtiss moved the aileron(curiously Henri Farman didn't) to between the wing. But his ailerons still moved in concert with the rudder to make a turn. This infringed the Wrights' patent which describes coordinated action of wingtip(warp, aileron etc.) & rudder.
deepseadirt 3 years ago
the rights patented not only wing warping, but also 2 other ways of achieving roll control...one of which was hinged ailerons..long before curtiss copied them
ab330 3 years ago
Until they secured the Military contract. They sued Curtiss after he reneged on the deal that they both agreed to. He could have kept doing experimental work and paid nothing, but once he was building and selling, then he had to pay a fee. He copied their system of coordinated turning and used it as though he came up with the idea himself. He infringed on their patent and if it had not been for WW1 and Wilbur's death, he would have lost.
warp13 3 years ago