Pt 1 Proving Book of Abraham Facsimiles

[MrSixdeep357]

Didn't Joseph Smith send married men on missions so he could bang their wives while they were gone?

[xxpowwowbluexx]

You sure can talk about nothing for a long time...

[TheStrong32]

This fool spends 10 minutes pointing out minutiae, completely neglecting the massively overwelming fact that Joseph Smith's interpretation has nothing, NOTHING, to do with either the images or the text on the hypocephalous. How about answering that GLAIRING disparity?

[dreamerwebdev]

What is this Morons, oops I mean Mormons credientials anyway? Doesn't seem to be that educated even if he was schooled I've been watching his videos and see any of this 'proof' of anything. He goes on to say one thing about how all languages are reformed egyptian in one but doesn't show that anything from americas supposed reformed egyptian is legit by any means esp when he and nobody else can tranlate a bunch of stolen symbols by Smith. Keep researching buddy, you just look like a nut job.

[MormonApostle]

$1000 for just ONE translated document from Joseph Smith. Just one document pal. Everyone knows Joseph Smith was a absolute and total fraud. Only YOU are believing your own tripe. If you repeat something enough even monkeys will believe it...as you do.

[cwood4ever]

@MormonApostle $1000000000 if you can show me one just ONE tablet from Moses. $100000000000 if you can show me ONE JUST ONE document that shows that Jesus was divine or actually existed. See I can go both ways. BTW you cant use the Bible because the books where written hundreds of years after Jesus died and translated and re translated over and over again. See I can play the game too. Its all about faith buddy

[walterma2]

south american civilization can prouve that

[MormonApostle]

$1000 for just ONE translated document from Joseph Smith. Just one document pal. Everyone knows Joseph Smith was a absolute and total fraud. Only YOU are believing your own tripe. If you repeat something enough even monkeys will believe it...as you do.

[dorisfenella]

@MormonApostle Don´t know about genetic or archeaology but Joseph Smith couldn´t write these incredible book by his own capacity. He barely had instrucción nor a genius can invent that book cause have inmense wisdom. Maybe you don´t consider all the variables included to write that book just the plot is amazing!

[dunklaw]

This baboon imagery with horned sun disc looks Kushite in origin.

[hammerogod]

I cannot believe that any living human being would actually try to validate J Smith's translation of that document ... It is amazing to what length people will go to keep from facing the truth about Mr. Smith ... I can do nothing at this point beyond giving them deep pity and hope that the Holy Spirit eventually breaks through the deception ... I know I will get a snide offhand comment from TBP but I would love to see his credentials ... His overall Scholarship is simply a failure on all levels.

[Thebackyardfreemason]

@hammerogod

Of course it's a failure. You have no reason to produce the evidence it is, all you have to o is say so, and wala! Failure because you say so. My how convenient.

[hammerogod]

@Thebackyardfreemason You and I have both seen the evidence and I think you already know that. Or: If you haven't seen it by now then it's time. Most of us, at least those who honestly care about the truth, made it our business to seek out the evidence long ago ... You are just hoping to reach a new, ill informed and possibly naive audience with stuff that has been disproven over and over and is totally disregared by any scholar who values facts and valid scholarship.

[awolLDSasap]

Do you have a CTT ring?

[kingkhan187]

Wasn't like he had hieroglyphic 101 in the course of a couple months. It's so hard for "know it all's" to see something so obvious without something physical they can touch. It's call Faith ppl. An God calls and reveals secrets about his universe to his servants. And if you ain't feeling all this Mormon stuff, Kick Rocks! Play ping pong an live your life in disbelief. Mormons don't have guns to your head demanding you to believe. LOL

[kingkhan187]

It's funny how discrediting document say how there was no studies in America about ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics yet for the very least Joseph translated some images that seems to take the smartest scholars to figure out. An lets not forget that Joseph had a 3rd grade Education. Another part is, how could he come close to imper vise or add some of the missing imagery? I don't think there was internet back in the horse an carriage day.

[hammerogod]

@kingkhan187 He didn't come close, every improvisation he added was so far from the original content that a random splatter of ink would make more sense ... Do the research.

[beersniper400]

once again you made yourself look stupid

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@beersniper400

No near as you just did with this inane comment. Thanks for showing me up, it is greatly appreciated.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@beersniper400

And your comment here shows your own intelligence? SMIRK!

[nonassumsit]

The Book of MORMON is CRAP

[bradsam]

we have 29 of these found and none say anything about what joseph smith said. he is false.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Well, we have almost 100 of them, and they say what he said they said. See how easy it is to simply trump a claim made by mere assertion?

[gurumagoo]

@TheBackyardProfessor Now how can you make a baseless statement like that? Scholars have been able to read Egyptian heiroglyphs for well over a century now. Any Egyptologist who is worth their salt can examine that thing and tell you without any doubt whatsoever that it has absolutely nothing to do with anything that Joseph Smith ascribed to it. It's a fact, whether you accept it or not. Your position on this issue is hopeless and totally indefensible.

[djdhcp22]

Hey Fudley2003.., DID U HEAR HIM CORRECTLY..., HE SAID HE DIDN'T EVEN TRANSLATE THE RIM! Which means that he drew it as he saw it on the original papyrus! GOSH, WHT A DUMBASS you are!!!! Listen next time and maybe you will learn something!

[fudley2003]

@djdhcp22 Why don't you read my statement again? My argument is not that he tried to translate the rim. Just like fax #1, JS and company added material that was never there. In this case, he copied them from other parts of the papyri. BYP even admits it on the video!

[djdhcp22]

Very well said and a great explanation!

[fudley2003]

JS added incorrect text to the rim. THAT IS HOW HE GOT THE RIM WRONG. The fact that you don't even know that you're contradicting yourself is very sad.

[IExposeMormonism]

@fudley2003 Nice thing is, the original is amongst us. So we need not fret. But saying the feather is a sword is odd. So is confusing an Egyptian resurrection for attempted murder.

[athono]

It is incontrovertible that Joesph Smith could not translate Egyptian. Nothing you have said or presented in any of your lenghy videos changes the fact that Joesph Smith could not translate Egyptian, Nothing that Rhodes says either changes the fact that it is obvious that Smith could not translate Egyptian. Attacking those who show this fact also does not make your position respectable. Mormonism is poison. This is why suicide is the number one cause of death in Utah. It is not true.

[EltonJThe]

@athono What is better? Translation by logic or translation by the Spirit of God?

[athono]

None of your comments or videos deflate the simple fact that Smith could not translate Egyptian.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Do you even understand what a translation is? I think you are out of your league and making a valiant attempt at looking like you know something.

[athono]

Yeah, Rhodes makes that sort of comment too. He says that we should not apply the modern and logical idea of translation to Smith's writing. In other words, "Tea Leaves".

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Again, since you ignored the question, what is your idea and understanding of what is a translation?

[athono]

Translation a written (or spoken) communication in a second language having the same meaning as the written (or spoken) communication in a first language. Translation is difficult and is usually not dependent on word-by-word translation.  The meaning has to be retained when communicating from one culture to another.

[athono]

What are you trying to prove? There are always variations?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Yes, and this shows the utter silliness of Charles Larson being "suspicious" of the drawings. He assumes there is a standard of drawing and if one does not live up to that standard then the drawing is wrong. His tissue of fantasy is what I am *dis* proving. I am proving nothing.... yet.

[athono]

But you are being gerneral while Larson (as I recall) is specific.

Why to you mock belief or make yourself believe in what is demonstratively untrue? Do you do this to please God?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

You obviously misunderstand what I am doing if you think I am mocking belief. I am mocking shoddy work by Charles Larson, even if he is specific, he is fundamentally flawed thinking and wrong conclusions based on wrong assumptions which he bases his conclusions on.

[athono]

I said "Wy do you mock belief or make yourself believe in what is demonstratively unture?" You only read part of what I wrote. And even if the work of Charles Larson is shoddy does not make his final conclusion untrue. Lots of books have errors here and there that you can pull from the text. This does not necesarily mean that the text as a whole is wrong or that the conclusions are wrong. I think you are just attacking something you do not want to believe. To you this makes God happy.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Larson's research is amateur, sloppy, and it invalidates his silly conclusions all the way around, If that makes God happy, fine. If it pisses God off that I point out one of his children are really stupid in their arguments, that's fine also.

[athono]

What are you talking about? You do not seem to understand what I am saying. Let me give you an example. Liberals looked for any error in "Unfit for Command" as a way of brushing it off. Finding an error in a book does not mean that the premise or the conclusion is wrong. Just because Larson made mistakes does not mean his conclusion is wrong. I am suggesting that YOU must think that what YOU are doing is making God happy because it does not make any sense. Do you understand?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Oh yes why of course. Nothing I do makes sense and God is happy with that. Or What I do is against your immature desires, wishes, etc., to have Mormonism wrong, and THAT makes God happy. Or......I mean no matter what, I will always be wrong in your eyes. No amounts of evidence will ever convince you of anything else no matter what.

[athono]

You are simply WRONG. It is NON SEQUITUR to point out where someone's work is sloppy and thus their conclusions are wrong. That is wishful thinking and it does not follow logically. You are only mounting an attack against something you do not want to believe. In fact it is you who are amateur and immature.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Ofr course I am simply wrong. Nothing I say makes sense. It's all nonsense and tissues of silliness in your eyes. Anyone who speaks against Mormonism is just going to be correct in your own biased opinion. I am dumb, immature, illogical, etc., and etc. Congratulations. Your assertions prove I am wrong (in your mind anyway)

[athono]

It is better to be anti-mormon than anti-science.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Why? They both lead to dead ends.

[athono]

The proofs that back up Einstein's Theory of Relativity are also sloppy.

This does not somehow mean that the Theory of Relativity is wrong. In fact, it is actually right.

There are always going to be mistakes in the work of human beings. To say that this makes their conclusions incorrect is non sequitur. Let me ask you directly. Are you incapable of seeing this?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

No. I am a Mormon. We are illogical, immature, and incapable of intellectual understanding., We are brainwashed into our testimonies and only willing to read anti-Mormon literatures. Nothing we say is ever accurate no matter how much we argue, discuss, or learn. Once a critic thinks the discussions are over.

[athono]

Are you passionate and emotional?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

About learning, I unhesitatingly answer in the absolute beautiful affirmative.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Have you ever worked through Einstein's proofs and mathematics on Relativity?!? You obviously know nothing about it or Mormonism which you attack. The theories of Relativity are some of the most ***BEAUTIFULLY*** demonstrated, elegant things in ALL of science. The math is delightful!

[athono]

I know from physicsts that the proofs that Einstein presented had mistakes. But the theories themselves are regarded as true. He came up with the theory but struggled to show the proof. This is just one of many examples. The book "Unfit for Command" is another and more applicable. Liberals found and error or two in the book as a way of dismissing the primise and conclusion of the text. This is not a good way of debunking something completely. It just shows despiration.

[LDSseminaryStudent]

Excellent work my friend! I was previously the MormonDirectorStuden, but had a period where I struggled with certain things and such, but I am back and ready to preach online! Keep up the work! You are incredible! You'd be an amazing fireside speaker.

[MThomasBender]

I am just curious as to your findings at around 3:00. You mention "moon" and "sun" discs then go on to show that the two baboons have sun discs on their heads. My question being; Why do you mention moon and sun discs then explain that they are two sun discs? Why have you mentioned "moon" disc at all? And to my understanding so far... there are two seperate symbols for the sun and moon. So your mentioning "moon" disc is puzzling to me.

[ikesteroma]

This is clearly one of your better videos, Shirts. Someone of your superior intellect would do well to make more videos like this - where you cut the crap and jump right into the point. :) Either way, don't stop dude!

[lyrical77]

white man, proclaiming to be a prophet, trying to tell all the brown and black people where they come from unde the guise of religion...hahaha..interesting­.

[endnami]

you keep on amazing me with your videos. i wish i could watch all of them, though i may not be able to in a long time.

im heading off to my mission :)

great job!!!!

[TrueSaintsLDS]

We testify that He will someday return to earth. And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.

[Estaban333]

Bad cold there proff, think it has gone to your head.

[potamuspeter]

BackyardProfessor, I was wondering if you had any videos or material on Facsimile #3? In a prior video you mentioned you were going to talk about it.

Let me know. Thanks.

[Rommelator]

In all fairness to Kerry, most Book of Abraham critics simply parrot what others have already written. Thus, the criticisms Kerry is addressing against Charles Larson, who does, by the way, criticize Joseph Smith for giving Khnum-Re two heads instead of four, are identical to myriads of other anti-Mormon arguments, most notably from the Tanners. Anti-Mormon allegations against the Book of Abraham froze in the late 1960s, and haven't changes much since.

[praestant8]

And most BOM "scholars" parrot Hugh Nibley as well as other FAIR and FARMS writers. Drawing water from the same well does not prove things scientifically.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

And some of us do our own research as well....

[rasonoaks]

This video is intellectually dishonest. The guy talks about critics who say that the picture JS drew should have had 2 head on not 4, Who CARES! about some strawman critic. What about the critics who say that the picture he drew is EXACTLY like the figure above what he drew. I MEAN EXACTLY see for yourself. Most likely JS copied it.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Just because I talk about something *you* don't care about, makes me intellectually dishonest?! Wow.......what a cheap and worthless assessment. Go home already your mom needs you for something.

[rasonoaks]

Let me give you an example. You make a video about Pete Rose. You say that Pete Rose is a very bad hitter, you go on to say that from 1982 to 1986 he averaged .245 as evidence to back up your position. You only present evidence that backs your position without commenting on evidence that does not. THAT SIR IS DISHONEST. It is intellectual because of the subject matter. Therefore "intellectually dishonest" is an apt description of your work.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

You are simply silly.

[rasonoaks]

Silly how?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I state who and what I am responding to, and presenting evidence, and you accuse me (falsely) ofbeing intellectually dishonest because I haven't addressed someone else's arguments. You don't think that's silly? I will get to other arguments as I can, in the meantime I am doing exactly what I said I was, and showing what I said I would show. That is not intellectually dishonest anymore than if I address one critic and ignore you that it would be dishonest. I just haven't responded to you yet.

[rasonoaks]

Your title of this piece is "Proving Book of Abraham Facimilies" therefore you are basically trying to PROVE it to be true, so cherry picking critics that are easily disproved while not talking about other critiques is dishonest. If you had titled your piece " Rebuttel to Critic Who Said There Should be a 4 Headed Guy in The Picture" then you would NOT be dishonest.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

No matter what I say, so long as you disagree, it will make me (in your eyes at least) dishonest. I wish you the best in life.

[Jdawgg49]

valid point. But we also can't over-analyze things such as these to the point where they start becoming what we want them to be, which is what you tend to do quite frequently. Find me one egyptologist that has ever confirmed or acurately stated that Joseph correctly translated the book of abraham. You can't because he didn't. It would indeed have been nice if Joseph did, but he didn't.

[Jdawgg49]

None of this matters anyways because anyone can look at facsimile no. 1 and with common sense say that Joseph was a fraud. It is SOOOO obvious. Why would God leave his true church filled with so much doubt and evidence against it? He wouldn't.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Common Sense is precisely what the great Sir Alan Gardiner, the Egyptologist said we ***CANNOT*** use when studying Egyptian, because their common sense is NOT ours. It would help if you would inform yourself first, then comment.

[rasonoaks]

I thought it was "reformed egyption" what happended to that BS, seems like regular old egyptian to me

[TheBackyardProfessor]

The Egyptian facsimiles are not dealing with reformed Egyptian. That was associated with the Book of Mormon. Reformed Egyptian is not involved in the Book of Abraham.

[JustinMartyrJr]

rason.: If you want a study of "reformed Egyptian," see studies that compare demotic Egyptian writing with a sample of writing* from the "gold plates" from which the Book of Mormon came from.

* Sample called, "The Anthon Transcript."

On SHIELDS web site, see:

The Anthon Transcript A Series of Articles in

The Improvement Era Jan. - Mar., 1942 by Ariel L. Crowley, LL.B.

[rasonoaks]

I checked it out, and agreee with you that the demotic egyption look similar to the Anthon transcript, however the most likely explanation is that he saw some of these Demotic letters before hand. This is way more likely than and angel, gold plates and peep stones. SHOW ME SOME DEMOTIC EGYPTION TYPE LETTERS FOUND HERE IN THE NEW WORLD DATING BACK TO THAT TIME AND I WILL BE BACK IN CHURCH TOMORROW

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Why? What does the NEW WORLD have anything to do with Abraham in the OLD WORLD and EGYPT?!?

You Lie. Physical evidence does not convince to return to church.

[rasonoaks]

WOW! The Anthon transcript had to do with writing on the GOLD PLATES not the book of Abraham. The gold plates supposedly have a New World origin.

And I dont lie - physical evidence would convince me. Whats funny is every member like you claim that physical evidence isnt required, but every testimony meeting everyone would say that "I know the church is true because ....." I got over an illness or I got a job, or some other "physical" evidence was presented as proof of their "faith"

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I don't believe you at all. Physical evidence does NOT convert. Want proof? I have the evidence for the Book of Mormon. The 70 videos on my Book of Mormon Commentary. It's all conveniently located in the Playlist called "Book of Mormon Commentary." I present the absolute most powerful evidence for the Book of Mormon, and it *IS* physical. Watch those, and I will prove you won't convert based on physical evidence. It's there, and it won't convert you.

[rasonoaks]

I have watched a few of your videos. There is mostly fluff in the videos. I would say 80% of your words never get to the point at hand.

When you do finally get to the point you provide "possible" explanations for things, but they aren't the only explanation not are they the most "probable",

[rasonoaks]

Why only reply to half of my post?

[JustinMartyrJr]

ras.: You're probably like too many who leave; Who have a whole list of reasons why not to believe. So I doubt that 1 item is going to be enough, to bring you "BACK IN CHURCH." Thus, here's 1 in many reasons why to believe, in addition to spiritual convictions.

1. Forms of Egyptian "Micmac hieroglyphics." (Encyclopedia of Indians of the Americas, 6:203-4, (Scholarly Press, 1974, Mic.).

2. Samples found on roller stamp cylinder seals found at La Venta, Tabasco, & Tlatilco, in Valley of Mexico.

[JustinMartyrJr]

ras.: Part 2: The "Anthon Transcript" & Two Mesoamerica Cylinder Seals, Carl Huge Jones, FARMS p.1-7.

3. June 11, 1988, KZZI 1510 AM Radio, West Jordan Utah. Dr. Bruce Warren talked about symbols that Highland Guatemala Mayan Indians inscribe on river-banks, not Mayan Hieroglyphs, but ones which were close to demotic type.

4. There's also symbols in sashes; Mayan clothing & on calendar from Altar V, Tikal that have demotic type symbols too.

6th BC Jerusalem area, Lachish Letters.

[hypnotstcollector]

"first hypo' in america"... "our hypo'.." the first few min are all obfuscation and address nothing. JS proves his reformed egyptian as excellent as his other things egypt. you know the jackel head is wrong. the glyphs as JS interpreted them are wrong. it doesnt matter what's missing. every thing present is in error. the background info adds color but not to the truth of the errors. errors=death for prophets. too many errors.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

No they aren't. I just posted my Institute lectures from last Thursday. The newest vids I have on this.

[Rommelator]

Can anyone say "gradis dictum" to hypnostcollector's comments?

[hypnotstcollector]

the burden falls entirely on JS. examining any existing Abe' P' shows JS errors. we reaaly dont need to go any further

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I have demonstrated how those so-called "errors" are not errors. Why do you conveniently ignore the materials? Khent Amenti, Wepwawet, etc. It's all there.

[FC275]

Rommelator said:

"Can anyone say "gradis dictum" to hypnostcollector's comments?"

so a lawyer, huh?

has the BYP proven that Joe Smith knew how to translate Egyptian or that he made it up?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I don't know if I have "proven." When is something proven? Is that the same for everyone? I think not.

[birostrisphile]

Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

For all your talking, you never actually address the critics' position, and the simplest explanation.

EVERY symbol (the two headed deity, the inverted L with stripes, the serpent, ankh, etc.) can be seen nearby in the hypocephalus.

Joseph simply copied the head of the deity (and other symbols) from the panel above into the panel below.

NOTHING you said or show rebuts that explanation. Your many words is obfuscation, and fails to address the critics' position.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I have had DOZENS of critics tell me that NOTHING is correct in Joseph Smith's explanations. I have not failed at all to address their *main* argument, I have shattered it, or rather, the research that I have found from the scholars have shattered it. I directly address the critics position.

[birostrisphile]

That's right. Keep declaring you "shattered it," without defining "it," nor without providing any actual evidence.

Is your thinking and "research" on this topic as clear as your communication?

[omiolo]

"before Rueben Hedlock and Joseph Smith made it a complete hypocephalus"

who is Rueben Hedlock??

BTW, incredible job teaching in this video!!!

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Hedlock is the one who made the woodcut for printing the facsimiles.

[omiolo]

"Hedlock is the one who made the woodcut for printing the facsimiles. "

Not that it really matters but was he LDS?

[wutang300]

faker then a three dollar bill

[TheBackyardProfessor]

NOpe. It's a genuine Egyptian document. Sorry, you're argument is as wrong and fake  as a three dollar bill.

[wutang300]

nah i agree with you there but the fact that joe translated it is faker then a three dollar bill well to me at least your belief is your belief, so im not gonna try to prove how it was fake but for me i see all religions as untrue most are man made to control the population but i like your videos your a smart man

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Actually I have found that the interpretations which the Prophet gave these are realy quite well fitting in with the ancient Egyptian views. And, of course, as I find the time, I shall elaborate on this. Thanks for the nice note man. You are always welcome here.

[wutang300]

i deff wanna see more but what i want to know is if they ever found any weapons from the guys in the bom i don't know if you could do a video on that

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I already have MANY of them called Book of Mormon and Steel, or something like that. Book of Mormon and Metal I believe I called them. I deal specifically with that issue. Thanks fer askin!

[TheBackyardProfessor]

The vids are called "Book of Mormon, Archaeology & Metals." They begin on page 4 of my videos. There are about 10 vids as I had an enormous amount of materials I wished to cover, and did so.

[cuteddu07]

What is the name of the book that you have in the video?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

It's not a book, but a paper I wrote years ago. I was using it for the illustrations since single paper lays far flatter than a bound book.

[grnmessiah]

Fancy doing one about the historicity of the Kinderhook plates?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Once I get these done, perhaps that might be interesting eh? In the meantime there is more than enough here to show two things. The critics are wrong, and Joseph Smith isn't so wrong as they suppose. It is overall a most fascinating situation, ONCE... ONCE one *honestly* looks at all the evidences available.

[rasonoaks]

look at what you wrote here, you could ask the same question of yourself.

ONCE...ONCE. one "honestly" looks at the CRITIQUES available

or you could dishonestly ignore these evidences

[TheBackyardProfessor]

One cannot look at all things at once. For instance, I could just as easily and ridiculously claim it is *you* who are dishonest for not watching all of my videos available hence you are dishonestly critquing them. Please tell me you get the point. You are intellectually dishonest for crying over this single video without watching the other at least 50 I have on this and related subjects.

[Jarkko1983]

Kinderhook plates fiasko has been shown to be false accusition long time ago, why did the guy come forth with his claims against smith over 30 years after his death, and after the deaths of the other kinderhook conspirators, if it was such an evidence? One must assume that because his claims were lies and the other if they were living, would have contradicted him, also smith could have cleared the issue if he had been around to defend his case. no evidence exists that smith translated them.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Jarkko, we need to team up for that series of vids, eh? LOL!

[grnmessiah]

You mean the ones that facsimiles of were in Joseph Smith's journal in 1843? I have read the thing that the Ensign put out about it; it blames the scribe--the same scribe who took the rest of his journal.

Are you saying that anything that was taken down by the person he called to be his personal secretary is questionable? Are only the things that don't fit your world-view questionable?

[grnmessiah]

Unless you are claiming that Joseph Smith's principle scribe was a liar, he took dictation from Joseph that "I have translated a portion of them and find them to contain a history of the person with whom they were found"

Shouldn't God have given Joseph guidance in calling someone as a scribe? Perhaps he should have called someone who was less inclined to lie, make mistakes, or just get it wrong.

[Jarkko1983]

what are you talking about, kinderhook plates or the bok of abraham facsimiles?

[grnmessiah]

The Kinderhook plates, which William Clayton, Joseph Smith's personal secretary, recorded in Joseph Smith's journal that Joseph Smith had "translated a portion of them and found them to contain a history of the person with whom they were found"

The Ensign later recorded, in the 70's, that chemical and spectral analysis showed that they were what the guys who sold them to him claimed that they were 30 years later.

They get out of it by faulting the scribe. God wasn't guiding Joseph on that one.

[Jarkko1983]

Joseph Smith appears to have had the plates in his possession for about five days.

William Clayton's account is problematic. We can either take it as representing personal and specific knowledge acquired from Joseph Smith, or not, or something between being entirely accurate or entirely false. The reason for this is that only two contemporary accounts exist (Clayton's is one of them) which attempt to detail the alleged contents of the plates. These accounts are not in agreement on several points