Is Nikyo an attack? Answer: It depends. For example if you just grab someone and put it on while they passively entrust their arm to you, of course it is.
Whatever Aikido is it's still a martial art. The loving protection of all things is a quote by the same person who included Nikyo in Aikido in the first place.
As for the video; strictly as a technical point, the nages in the clip all have their elbows pointing up. My instructor would have said "this is zero"
@AikidoTubeSock If the intention to apply torque to the weakest part of an arm so that it causes compliance through pain is not an attack from where does the intention arise?
Does your instructor also have you trap your partner's hand as you apply the technique? Why?
Webster defines martial arts as arts of combat and self defense. Osensei: "There is no enemy for Uyeshiba of Aikido. You are mistaken if you think that budo means to have opponents and enemies and to be strong and fell them."
My understanding of Morihei Ueshiba teachings and practices, albeit limited, is about using the minimum force and not destroying uke as part of a defense. “Not destroying” is distinctly different than not inflicting pain. That being said I really enjoyed the technique being demonstrated.
@paulcshearer When taken as a whole Ueshiba's teaching's about unification. Throughout it aikido is not about defeating, not besting but protection of all things, reverence for all things. Those statement are incongruent with inflicting pain and one can prove this to oneself by imagining how you feel when coerced through pain. If someone forces you to drop to your knees through pain how unified with that person do you feel? Do you feel loved? Protected? Our goal is the highest ideal of aikido.
@lsb6785 Yes, the same with any application of force, anything that is intended to control one's partner, particularly if they that include an intention of pain compliance: (see our vid Proactive Non-resistance) Bear in mind that allowing partners to get to this stage of attack through wrists is not natural to real life aikido and transcending the limbic system charge is difficult. These vids demonstrate the attack nature of these wrist locks not a technique to win fights or power through.
I really appreciate the research here, that is much more than a kaeshiwaza work. The aim of this is to try to comprehend the action, the flow, the direction and above all Uke. All this leads to more questions than to an answer to nikyo ura.
To those who think that a "good" nikyo would prevent from this "reverse", I think that, on the contrary, only a "correct "nikyo" would allow this. As most of the kaeshi wazas.
@maotzetof, Thank you for your insightful comment. If aikido is practiced in alignment with its core principle it cannot be "reversed" because to harmonize means to "move with." Only if nage's action is counter to uke's intention can it be "reversed." You have understood that what we have demonstrated - that the common way of applying nikyo as a wrist lock is not in harmony with uke's intention but is in essence an attack on one's partner. This is why nage has to trap uke's hand to do it.
I easily understand the principles (while I hardly succeed in applying it), it reminds me Kobayashi Senseï or Hakira Hino in the research. Always do simple but always connected. It is so complicated to be simple.
Sorry to ask, but it seems to me I've seen you before. Have you ever come in France to practice Aikido ?
@maotzetof I have never been to France to practice, but have you come to seminars in the U.S.?
It is a simple idea to connect and harmonize, but the problem arises from our true intention. Even though many aikidoists espouse the idea of aikido being unifying and harmonizing, in practice their intention is to control or "lead." Both things put nage into the driver seat, not in a position of "co-traveller" in which the aiki unfolds spontaneously based on the connection. We want takemusu aiki.
@maotzetof, agreed! This is the nature of our practice - to truly and literally embody the application of aikido as "the loving protection of all things" in a way that is absolutely effective. It will be fun to practice with you when you visit us in Los Angeles!!
I read lot's of comments about this video and I'm glad to see I wasn't only me that didn't quite get-it. I could almost agree with one person commenting that this is one of those things that should ether be broken down in a class and not in public. It's very easy to see this as a "counter" attack and not see the flowing Ki in this video when you say "Never get trapped by Nikyo again". I'm still not yet convinced that it works, but I'll give it a try on my next practice day.
Yes, we didn't do a very good job with it because our understanding of what we were working with was not as developed as it is now, two years later (and my flippant comment didn't help, you are right). We actually talked today about making a new video that explains what we doing more clearly and succinctly. Thanks again for your interest and comments
Wait! In this video you said the one uke has been doing Nikyo for 18 yrs. Well it looks as if all 3 of you've been doing it incorrectly for a long time. The way you're all applying Nikyo is very unsafe. You're standing directly in front of Tori. The idea is to move a little to the outside of uke. Away from his line. As long as you're in his line, he can reverse any movement. Please try.
Thanks for your observation, but it is apparent you have missed the point of this video completely. I am sorry our point is not clear. This is not to show a nikkyo reversal or even prove someone can reverse a pain compliance technique that has already been applied.
It is to show that the energy necessary to apply a pain compliance technique such as the classic nikkyo is extended as a constricted flow of ki, the same as any attack, and is therefore subject to ai ki do, or a harmonious extension of beneficent ki, that will allow the nikkyo applier’s energy to take him to the floor without resistance.
First of all, please acknowledge that no one in the role of nage (tori) is going to get himself in a position to receive an application of this wrist lock...
...as it is based on an attack. When we put ourselves on the receiving end of this wrist lock it is not to demonstrate how to get out of a nikkyo should your aikido lead you to become an uke. If it does, you are not doing aikido anyway. If you are attacking then you are not nage in aikido.
None of us have been doing Nikkyo “wrong” all these years. Between us we have received instruction from six teachers who were direct students of Osensei.
This is in addition to the teachers in our multiple lineages who were second generation from the founder, and we are all capable of performing a nikkyo that will bring our partner to the floor in pain. If you watch the whole video you will see at around 2:00 the continued application of nikkyo, which sends Rene to his knees. Rene received 5th dan ranking from Michael Moreno Sensei and is not about to fake ukemi. At 4:16 witness the application by Rene to Patrick who is not faking that wince.
Same at 4:38. Patrick’s wrist is definitely locked, and I direct the energy of the lock right through his wrist to his center. Likewise at 4:50 Rene is obviously applying an effective pain compliance technique, or Patrick is a great actor. The same is clear at 5:15.
Next, please understand that as we apply the pain compliance version of nikkyo we do not apply it to the point in which uke must acquiesce. We are only bringing it to the cusp of when the pain will bring a reflexive action.
Again, our goal is not to demonstrate the right way to apply a nikkyo that will dominate one’s partner but to illustrate that the energy flow inherent in a technique like nikkyo is an attack rather than a harmonious blending with uke’s attack. We show this by demonstrating that by harmonizing with the nikkyo it actually brings the applier to the ground rather than the intended target.
This would not be possible if the application of nikkyo is a harmonious action.
Our practice is dedicated to developing skills that will allow us to embody the highest ideals of aikido as espoused by the founder, for it to be wholly effective while truly being the “loving protection of all things.” It cannot be this if domination through pain compliance is what is being practiced.
For an explanation of how nikkyo can be utilized without creating pain, please see our video “Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo.”
This is why I believe Aikido is a much more practical martial art for todays society. The sort of sound kicking and destruction techniques I was taught in Ju jitsu and Ninjitsu are going to land you in prison unless you are using them on the battlefield where they were first devised. All martial arts have there applications for the modern world, but if you want to put a sleeper on someone a la ju jitsu, you better start praying they wake up again.
yes this is true.. but there is still pain involved. Wrist locks hurt. If a person is inflexible maybe even bending down is painful.. I don't mean to say that you should hurt people and dominate them and conquer them. You said you can't think of them as an enemy, and the idea is to help them to the ground. But it still hurts. If someone punched you, and you performed tsuki kotegaishi and he softly fell on the ground, chances are his wrist would still hurt. You leave a lot up to them.
The way we view it, there is no reason to do anything that causes discomfort, first because the harmonious aspect of aikido precludes the need for it, and second because causing any discomfort puts nage in a dominating role no matter how little it hurts. That includes the commonly accepted way of using kotegaishi.
We don't want to leave anything to uke. We think of our aikido as the loving protection of all things. We want to resolve the conflict in a pro-actively positive way.
Nikyo kills my wrists. I am doing my 5th kyu test tomorrow, and have been training a lot these past few weeks. My wrists are NOT happy with me haha.
The pain aikido inflicts is much less severe than if you were to say stab a man for attacking you. The goal is to flow with whatever is thrown at you and have both parties come out generally uninjured.
Our goal is not "to flow with whatever is thrown at you and have both parties come out generally uninjured."
Our goal is to flow in such a way that the "loving protection of all things" is accomplished, the conflict is resolved, and unity is achieved. Who is going to feel that unity is achieved just because they are uninjured but still in pain and having been dominated by a pain compliance technique?
I know that O-Sensei preached a lot of "love and peace," but when you strip away the philosophy, isnt ALL of aikido counter-ATTACKS? While we may take care of uke and not want to really hurt anyone, an applied technique is still an attack. Period. From Juji-nage to maki-otoshi or kateguruma, its all *attacks* PS. why not show counter techniques? If you have openings an opponent could exploit you *deserve* to be countered.
Osensei isnt preaching, he is reflecting on the nature of reality. This man was trained to kill and was not naïve. He would never have expressed such a philosophy without something to back it up. He was not out to fool anyone, he only shared what he had discovered that beneficence can produce a flow of universal energy through the benefactor that accepts and consumes the energy of the attack. If you meet it with non-resistance it will go to the ground of its own accord.
His descriptions of what aikido is to him are not advice by Osensei to play nice, they were about the source of why what he was doing was effective. Osensei himself said that techniques themselves were limited. What makes them invincible is when they manifest in accordance with aiki. This manifestation can only occur when the person attacking is not viewed as an enemy to be destroyed.
So, no, the techniques need not be counter attacks. When the attacker is viewed as a person making a human error instead of as an antagonist who needs to be punished, the aikido techniques become ways of helping the person to the ground as he throws himself, or like being a lifeguard saving someone from drowning without drowning himself.
Hmmm - i understand your point of view with the question, thou there are veryfied Aikido counter techniques to all the basic techniques - but these should not be shown in public, they belong to the long term dedicated aikido Ka´s and Sensei´s for many good reason that im´ shure do not need to be explained to a dedicated person like you.
Sorry, but perhaps I wasn't clear. This is not a demonstration of a "counter" to a nikyo, but to demonstrate that it is "counterable" because it is essentially an attack. Pain compliance technique is not a manifestation of harmonizing but one of domination. If you are implying that non-aikidoka need to be kept unaware because the advantage would be lost, I would consider that notion in the realm of fighting and not aikido. We follow the edict of Osensei that our aikido be "loving protection"
@Kakushitoride With humility, my opinion after having studied this technique for many years is this is not an attack. It is all about the spirit in which technique is given. If performed correctly, Nage does NOT put Uke into Nikkyo, Uke puts himself into it by the nature of his attack. ALL Aikido techniques have reversals and counters if you want to get technical. It is not the tech, but the spirit in which it is used. Peace.
@Deke Thanks for your observation. That is our point. When uke puts himself into it (see our clips "easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo"), it is not "reversible" although it may flow into something else. However when nikkyo is applied with the intention of locking the wrist and forcing submission through pain compliance, then it IS an attack and subject to countering, proving it so. If one's application is in harmony then it will require no "trapping" of the fingers and be effective using one hand only
The spirit in which aikido is utilized is everything because that determines how ki flows. Fear causes restrictions in flow, beneficence produces expansion. The technical reflects the spirit in which the practitioner operates. Desire to control, dominate, defend are born of fear. Transcendence of fear is necessary for takemusu aiki which is not "reversible" because it is continually in harmony.
This is an interesting experiment in the flow of ki. We have done extensive practice in reversals where uke and nage switch roles in a continuous flowing practice. With Nikyo, we usually have uke drive his elbow upward and into nage's center via his face. This pretty much neutralizes Nikyo.
I don't believe Nikyo is non Aiki. It just gives Nage another option. Just as a spanking is an option in proper parenting.
While it's up to everyone to practice the way they see fit, our goal is to take the force out. We feel that imposing our will on someone else is antithetical to the very nature of harmony.
For instance, while spanking a child can be a tool to keep a child from doing dangerous things, we seek a way to accomplish the goal without resorting to violence, even if mild. The nikyo we employ in our practice (not in this clip) is painless and a direct result of uke's intention.
Nikyo painless??? I have had to use Aikido in real life altercations. Painless doesn't compute to someone trying to clobber you with a glass bottle. I don't think painless is what O'Sensei had in mind. There is a difference between causing an attacker pain and causing damage. In controling a violent situation, I believe one must be assertive. A little pain can go a long way to avoiding damage.
Remember that Hombu Dojo was referred to ass 'Hell Dojo' by some of it's oldest students. This was a direct result of the pain they went through to study Aikido. Now I know O'Sensei chilled out quite a bit later in life and refined Aikido into a much more subtle art. I don't think his main goal was to avoid causing any pain. I think it was to avoid casuing harm. We already practice so as not to 'force' a tech to work, but this is not because of pain, but because of the natural flow of ki.
I can't argue with you for feeling that way, but for us
using aikido to win fights is "been there, done that." We are now focusing our training on becoming so harmonious that we can become true protectors of our attackers as we believe Osensei intended for aikido to literally make the world one through the loving protection of all things.
I have to admit this video created quite a conversation in my dojo :) Sensei saw me and senpai talking about this and trying it. It was interesting to see how sensei easily nullified it by just following the flow of energy of our response. That makes you really understand how (theorically) by following the flow of energy 2 equal skilled people could go on forever.
P.S. Just one thing tho. Nikkyo doesn't really need to cover the hand to be done if done well, by attacking the center.
If your sensei could "nullifiy" something it was because the energy you were extending was constricted into an attack itself. That's the point to this examination!
Think about it - can aikido manifest between two "nages?" Of course not. It can only manifest between uke and nage. Two ukes will only produce a fight or a violent outcome, not aikido. Two nages - no aikido because no one is attacking. An uke and a nage = aikido.
Nikyo "done well, by attacking the center" is what the
clip is about. Osensei often said that aikido is not about dominating another person or winning a fight. Why would you attack anyone's center unless you are uke? Attacking the center is the defining characteristic of uke.
If the application of nikyo causes discomfort of any kind it is an attack and therefore is subject to the application of true aikido.
Thanks for taking up the conversation. Truth is found by challenging the old ideas.
Ha ha! Don't misunderstand me - I am not opposed to nikyo, as uke will under the appropriate circumstances put it on him or herself. Our clip is to demonstrate how the intention of putting on a joint lock causes the person executing it to constrict his ki flow rather than to expand it in a way that is more conducive to aiki manifesting spontaneously. This same kaewaza can be shown with kotegaeshi and sankyo when applied as a pain compliance technique.
As a beginner, I think people misunderstand the joint locks. In real demonstration, the joint locks must have continuous tai sabaki with kokyu.
Here's the killer question: are not ALL of the joint locks as vulnerable as this one if you rely on the pain to do the work? Is there a dimension of 'ura' technique to mirror classic Aikido ukemi, technique, but which reverse the roles again?
What happens if you really kiai into the nikyo like uke is going to die .5 seconds later anyway? Is it courtesy?
I agree with you. I would also go one further and say that any intention on nage's part to subjugate the attacker in any way leaves openings for counter attack.
If you have been in jiuwaza with an attacker trying to apply a joint lock or trying to force you into an aikido throw you know how easy it is to simply not be caught. It is a more dynamic demonstration that aikido is not about fighting but about unification. A real attack met with ki brings attacker to the floor without effort.
True it may not work if applied slowly, or done incorrectly, however, if you were unbalanced & hit with an atemi first and the person applying nikyo is already set up while trying to regain your center you wouldn't have the time to reverse, trust me.
If I was practicing aikido, why would I be unbalanced? If I was practicing aikido I would not be hit with an atemi.
The need to "hit" someone with an atemi first in order to unbalance them to a point at which we can inflict a painful nikyo from which they cannot escape is what is unnecessary and out of harmony with the idea of "loving protection of all things," which is why we moving toward levels of aikido that are still effective but aspiring to the goals of the founder to unify not destroy.
"out of harmony"?. That is an interesting thing to say. Often we here people talk about the harmony of Aikido. But what is harmony? I for sure, can not explain it. At least not in a way so that it's understandable and accepted be everyone.
Harmony is just a subject of your own thinking, is it not? This "harmony" as you call it, may be interpreted differently by us all with no one being more corrext than the other about what it really is.
You could substitute "in conflict" or "in opposition" for "out of harmony." Even if words are to be interpreted differently, the feeling of opposition or conflict is not the same as when in harmony.
Though words may fail us, for me harmony is the quality of things working together. In the case of aikido it is working together to "complete Uke's mission" (paraphrasing Osensei).
Hi! Great video! It puzzled me at first. Our version of Nikkyo being slightly different, I thought it would not work. My wife and I just tried it one minute ago! I'm sure you know what the result was! Keep posting!
Thanks so much for giving it a try! It would have been much easier to reject the concept as "nikyo done wrong." Wait until you try it with the pain compliance version of sankyo. You will achieve the same result...just be careful, lol...
Nykio is from my point of vue mostly mental, so in my case, i try to control uke´s body using anatomy but eliminating the pain with your spirit. I want to thank you for your conversation.
What I am really talking about is an evolution in aikido from when Osensei was shifting his emphasis from martial to spiritual applications.
When I was originally taught nikyo, it was meant to control one's attacker by locking the wrist. That is still the predominant mindset as far as I can see.
If you have a teacher who teaches a nikyo in which you don't have to trap uke's fingers on your wrist in order to keep his grab in place or to lock his wrist to maintain control I call you lucky!
I think Nikkyo is a powerfull way to stop an attack but musts be used with carefull. The most important is that nikkyo is used to disflict an attack, not to hurt. Even if done hard, nykkyo shouldn´t hurt (by hurt i meen injure) the uke.
I appreciate your intention not to injure your partner, but our goal, first is not to put a brake on an attack but to allow the attack to be expressed completely so that our partner, in the words of O-Sensei, "can complete his mission."
Also, our goal is to not inflict pain as we do not feel that this is in the spirit of "loving protection. Our purpose is to practice aikido that is totally harmonious and still retains its effectiveness in creating resolution without infliction of discomfort.
I know that i dont have much knoledge about aikido, as i am only 5th kyu. But from what i have learned if you manage to blend with the attacker no technique will be an attack or hurt him. After all, o sensei said that "injuring the oponent is injuring youself".Nykkio is a nice technique because it shows the blend with the opponent and the control of the strenght. An uke that receives nykkyo is not braked but softly guided down.A complete blend. Thank for replying
YES! I agree! You are talking about the kind of nikyo demonstrated in our clips "Easy ikkyo, painless nikyo" 1 & 2.
This clip is meant to demonstrate that the nikyo which uses pain compliance to subjugate one's attacker causes the nage to become the attacker himself, and as such becomes subject to an aiki resolution with himself as uke.
Great video, interesting to see a new perspective (both physically and mentally) on such a well known technique. I should talk this over with my aikido teachers. Thanks for posting this!
No pushing from nage, please! The person generating the most constricted flow of ki will always be the one who finds himself on the ground as long as the partner is harmonizing with the constricted flow of ki in a connected way through a non-constricted way.
Remember, the very word Aikido is based on harmony, not force.
wow...that was cool...i'm gonna try that on my next class...maybe impress my teacher^^. I got quite surprised that you really could get out of the technique by just move his centre...thanks for the tip:P
Please remember this is a demonstration of something very difficult to achieve. Before "impressing" your teacher this way, you might investigate how able you are to embody a center-to-center connection first. Everything is dependent on that.
Our entire practice consists of finding meaningful ways of maintaining connection with our partners through an optimum ki flow state. While we feel we are making progress at this, none of us are so foolish as to think we can do it 100% of the time.
I know this must be a hard concept to grasp, but the point of this video is NOT to show HOW to reverse nikyo. After all, what kind of aikidoka is going to find himself in a position to be receiving it? Only an attacker would be in that position.
The point is to demonstrate that nikyo when applied this way IS an attack in every aspect of the word - it is meant to cause pain or injury in the furtherance of winning a confrontation, and as such it is subject to aikido the way any other attack is.
Im sorry but at any point as you become the more dominant force in the conflict you are attacking, otherwise you would both stand there holding hands.
Exactly, which is why if you are practicing aikido as nage you will never be a dominant force, but a harmonious one.
You hold hands with a friend. An attacker is not holding your hand, but providing all the force necessary. The Aikidoka only needs to harmonize with that force in order for Aikido to manifest.
I'm sorry but I can't understand whats going on with the person who applies nikkyo... why does he fall to the ground... please reply! I'm really curious about this!
This video demonstrates that nikyo, when applied as a painful wrist lock is actually an attack subject to harmonizing in a true aiki sense. The partner applying the nikyo in a painful way falls because the other partner transcends the response that produces resistance and instead extends ki from his center as a flood rather than a constricted flow. A flood of ki absorbs the constricted flow like a lake absorbs water from a fire hose. the flood moves the partner's center to the floor.
Applying pain in nikyo and other pin techniques is necessary, and let consider what will happen to someone who is falling on the ground after a throw. Without applying pain most techniques will never work. The thought of loving protection of all things is that you dont serious hurt or kill your opponent.
Applying pain is absolutely NOT necessary. It goes against the principle of harmony.
We allow each other to go into rolls as aikidoka because we trust each other to know how to roll. Everything we work on allows us to also "throw" without throwing so that in the case of an "off-the-mat" uke we become a support at the resolution of the aiki interaction rather than an aggressor.
An Aikido student is late for class. he see's a long dark alley to the left of him, and figures it will save time. 50 punks jump him, of course he beats the crap out of them and moves on to class.
the Aikido master is in the hurry to his class, and again sees the alley. he's half way down when he gets jumped by 50 guys. he throw's them all around without anyone getting hurt, and moves on down to the dojo.
O-Sensei is late for class. He see's the alley, looks at it, and passes right on by.
Yes, it is, but our goal is to deal with physical conflict from a principle of harmony not dominance. If dominance is the goal then Aikido will never work. True, one can use joint manipulations to cause pain and injury, but how does that advance Osensei's stated goal of aikido to be "a way of harmonizing the world and unifying the human race as one family."?
I've never felt unified with anyone who broke my wrist, have you?
You cannot apply a Nikyo and stay there watching your opponent to see what happens ..... You should know that... Nikyo is a fast wrist break, followed by an Ikkio to the ground.
Which would really make it an attack, no? Is your aikido about the "loving destruction of all wrists?"
Once again, we are not demonstrating that the violence of a hard nikyo is something that we want to invite and then fight against. We are demonstrating that the energy flow in a painful nikyo is the same as any attack. As a result of that it is subject to an aiki resolution.
It sometimes takes a paradigm shift in order to see that creating pain is not the highest level of aikido.
If pins are only on the joints it probably works, yes. If a pin is extended deeply through uke (all the way to his feet), the same line occurs as the line ths sensei is using when reversing/kaeshi waza the nikkyo.
To control some one with a low pain level, who can handle a lot pain (alcohol or medication or drugs), how will you be able to use/apply a pin in order to 'control/meet'?
Nevertheless, great exploration and looking forward to more investigation. Thanks.
I assume you mean that there is a difference between joint locks and connection to center, and I agree. However, if either one of those attempts to pin consist of a constricted flow of ki, then they can be overcome with a flood of ki. The "flood" offers no resistance and is not reversible.
Regarding your question about pain tolerance, a center to center connection affects balance and has nothing to do with compliance due to pain.
anyone know their names? sorry if it's already been mentioned. this is an interesting view on kaeshi waza. although some styles of aikido project nikkyo forward, not down and in. still, makes for interesting conversation. cute, too.
thats very good. but since were looking at flow. remember theirs another lock from the position going down. it is the one gozo shioda does aside from Nikyo. by reversing nikyo you leave your self open to a rising wrist lock. find a reverse to that.
In our dojo our shidoin and visiting shihan always make a point that nage's elbows should be pulled in tight against nage's sides, rather than over uke's elbow. I wonder if this would change the flow to the point that the kaeshi waza being shown here would not work. When we've practiced other kaeshi waza, nage is frequently instructed to "allow" an opening in their technique, to illustrate a point, rather than to debate the effectiveness of given waza.
I've seen many different applications of nikyo by various shihan and don't remember any emphasis on elbows being pulled in, but your experience is different than mine.
However there is no opening allowed by us here. As pointed out, we are allowing ourselves to be put in this vulnerable position (what aikido results in finding oneself trapped in nikyo, after all?) to demonstrate that nikyo requires a constricted flow of ki when done in the common way.
There is no doubt that nikyo is an effective way of bringing one's partner to his or her knees, but it becomes an attack when force is applied in order to use pain to create compliance.
This kaeshi waza demonstrates that aiki makes ineffective the attack inherent in a hard style nikyo.
Recuerde, por favor, aikidoka en el papel del nage no van a conseguirse en nikyo en el primer lugar. We' VE permitió que nuestros socios lo aplicaran con nuestros permisos para la baladronada de la experimentación no.
I also noticed in the 1935 video of O'Sensei that much of his"technique" led to kokyu nage style movement...The kokyu nage flow seems much more what we are talking about ie Aiki movement.
Corky's teaching model where ukemi is learned first and comes to include the kind of energy and direction...ie proper intent.. in the "attack" part of ukemi, which leads to a technique presenting itself is kind of backasswards from the way we learned.
I tried this the other day in my dojo and had a 50/50 response. Some caught on, some didn't get the idea at all. I found that our standard Kaeshi worked way easier with this mindset as well.
And I found trying to feel where uke wanted to go ended up as often as not in a fairly typical technique form just because that is the way my body has been moving this past 18 years. O'Sensei said we were to learn the form then leave it behind(sorry for the bad paraphrase...)
Hi, I have to say when I first say this video I was highly sceptical, but to give you the benefit of the doubt I tried this last night at my dojo.
I tested it as both uke and nage and it utterly failed to work on anyone. Any nage with a half decent nikyo should be able to control uke and not allow the kind of kaeshi waza you demonstrated. For the record, I tried it two big guys and neither could effect that kaeshiwaza.
This wasn't one night but an examination for years. The hardest thing to do is transcend the limbic system response to being trapped. It may mean a shift in consciousness.
The size of your partners has nothing to do with effectiveness, and your comment about them being big indicates a belief that what we showed has something to do with force and hence a misunderstanding of what we were doing. Strength or size has nothing to do with it.
It looks like you have found a gap in the nikyo that is being applied - and that's good. Isn't that a key part of aikido? But, I normally assume it's time to work on the technique more, not dismiss it as ineffective.
The scariest nikyo I have ever had was spooky, delivered by a visiting shihan. It was basic, at his shoulder, and was insanely gentle - there was no feedback from his grip. He was not "constricted".
It's going to take a while to duplicate that, but that's where I'm heading.
Without having been there, I would guess that the "insanely gentle, no feedback" nikyo the shihan applied is the kind that is not reversible (see below) because it wasn't constricted and because he was really sending a flood of ki to your center through the path of your intention. You naturally "completed your mission" without resistance and without pain.
We're only suggesting that the traditional nikyo which relies on a wrist lock is more like an attack. Your shihan was in harmony not force.
That makes more sense to me now. I agree that nikyo can be applied as an attack. I would say this for most aikido techniques. But, that doesn't mean it is the only way it can be applied. And, for me, that doesn't mean it's a bad way to apply it.
I still think the progress is that you have found a gap in your technique. Now you can work on removing the gap. If you cannot do this while keeping it "traditional" then your definition of "traditional" is different from mine.
In order to live up to Osensei's edict to continue developing aikido we have chosen a path to find ways of dealing with aggression that eliminate the need for force or pain. For us this means becoming more effective by becoming more harmonious.
We are currently undertaking this through a study of ukemi as integral to aikido, whereas when we began it was all about technique and ukemi was only about staying safe from the force of the throw. Further exploration into nikyo to remove the gap...
...can be seen in our clip "Easy Ikkyo, painless nikyo" which exemplifies our belief that flow is more effective than technique any time. Not that no aikido technique is present, but that connection with uke's intention produces the aiki rather than a pre-determined technique to produce a specific result.
In this way aikido manifests spontaneously and no force is necessary nor resistance created.
What may be more interesting about kaeshi waza is that it is only possible when force is applied in a technique. When there is no force, the "technique" is not reversible because the connection and blending allows the flow to go into another technique.
In other words, if nikyo is the result of a center to center ki connection, uke's counter is not met with resistance but merely flows toward another aiki resolution.
I just came across this and my initial response to it was I did not see what I have been taught as the correct application of nikkyo by Tohei Sensei. I have trained with his senior most students (some no longer living) and nikyo was never about applying pain, it was about leading their mind. You fell without realizing it because connecting with ki they moved your one point. You sort of answered this in your comments. Kaeshi waza becomes very difficult in that context.
I totally agree, though some might object to the word "correct" regarding the application. This is the kind of nikyo in which one must firmly trap the fingers of the person grabbing so that they can not escape.
A nikyo in which one does not have to force the partner to hold on to be effective would not even invite kaeshi waza because the center to center connection of which you wrote would lead the partner to go to the ground voluntarily. See our "Easy ikkyo, painless nikyo" clip.
That's why I love it too! Just please be careful because if you react to the pain and try to force the "reverse" you can be injured. The extension of ki in an expanded and fully flowing way is absolutely necessary to create the flow you see here when we do it right, and we often don't do it right.
Remember, aikidoka in the role of nage are not going to get ourselves into nikyo in the first place. We've allowed our partners to apply it with our permissions for experimentation not bravado.
Now i see why this nikio isnt working!!! u dont have to put your arm above the ukes arm... u have to twist! not o use your weigh... if u do the twist move no one can scape the nikio.. it hurts to much to try moving arm.
The technicalities of applying nikyo are arbitrary or else you wouldn't differences among all the top teachers. Doing "the twist" is attacking your partner (not loving protection). Yes it causes pain, but pain can be overridden otherwise boxing matches would be over in the first round. I understand that it's hard to see in this clip that nikyo was being applied sincerely, but you would know it for sure had you been there. We all have decades of experience applying nikyo the traditional way.
Don't mean to be disrespectful... but this nikio isnt nikio.. cause its stop motion! nobody comes from nothing and perform a nikio.. i've done a lot of nikios and no one scaped...
Both you and gerkyr have brought up the same point, but this is not supposed to be a technique as you are used to seeing them. If any of us were in a real situation, uke would NEVER be able to get us into a nikyo hold. This exercise is to demonstrate two things: the painful forced application of nikyo is an attack not harmonization, and the constricted flow of ki that is part of any attack is affected by a flood of ki through open channels.
Our purpose in aikido has moved beyond putting our partners in a place from which they can not escape, or even putting them into a place from which they would NEED to escape.
To address gerkyr's comment, by the way, the person applying nikyo in the clip wasn't just waiting. Each was applying it, just not cranking it on. We all had our wrists stretched out by the end of the practice session I can assure you, and had you been there you would have seen that had there been one more ounce
of pressure per square inch applied you (and us) would have been on the floor, unless you (we) were able to move beyond our limbic system response to the pain in order to send a flood of ki through the path created by the nikyo application.
Once again, the practice in this exercise is to not get caught in the need to control the situation (this time even through acute pain) so that ki can be extended without constriction.
Personally I prefer traditional nikyo counters from physical realm.If there is a chance, of course. By the way, what would you do if your opponent never heard of ki expansion and just keeps twisting your wrist? With a nice hip motion on top? :) Just a thought
Whether my partner has ever heard of ki or ki expansion is irrelevant. If he kept twisting my wrist with or without a "nice" hip motion, he would become even more of an uke and it would be easier to harmonize with.
Don't mean to be disrespectful, but how come that nage just waits for that counter to happen, sorry, doesn't really work that way, looks amusing, though.
Is Nikyo an attack? Answer: It depends. For example if you just grab someone and put it on while they passively entrust their arm to you, of course it is.
Whatever Aikido is it's still a martial art. The loving protection of all things is a quote by the same person who included Nikyo in Aikido in the first place.
As for the video; strictly as a technical point, the nages in the clip all have their elbows pointing up. My instructor would have said "this is zero"
AikidoTubeSock 1 month ago
@AikidoTubeSock If the intention to apply torque to the weakest part of an arm so that it causes compliance through pain is not an attack from where does the intention arise?
Does your instructor also have you trap your partner's hand as you apply the technique? Why?
Webster defines martial arts as arts of combat and self defense. Osensei: "There is no enemy for Uyeshiba of Aikido. You are mistaken if you think that budo means to have opponents and enemies and to be strong and fell them."
Kakushitoride 1 month ago
My understanding of Morihei Ueshiba teachings and practices, albeit limited, is about using the minimum force and not destroying uke as part of a defense. “Not destroying” is distinctly different than not inflicting pain. That being said I really enjoyed the technique being demonstrated.
paulcshearer 1 month ago
@paulcshearer When taken as a whole Ueshiba's teaching's about unification. Throughout it aikido is not about defeating, not besting but protection of all things, reverence for all things. Those statement are incongruent with inflicting pain and one can prove this to oneself by imagining how you feel when coerced through pain. If someone forces you to drop to your knees through pain how unified with that person do you feel? Do you feel loved? Protected? Our goal is the highest ideal of aikido.
Kakushitoride 1 month ago
So what about sankyo?
lsb6785 1 month ago
@lsb6785 Yes, the same with any application of force, anything that is intended to control one's partner, particularly if they that include an intention of pain compliance: (see our vid Proactive Non-resistance) Bear in mind that allowing partners to get to this stage of attack through wrists is not natural to real life aikido and transcending the limbic system charge is difficult. These vids demonstrate the attack nature of these wrist locks not a technique to win fights or power through.
Kakushitoride 1 month ago
@Kakushitoride domo arigato gozaimashita!
lsb6785 1 month ago
@lsb6785 do itashi mashite!
Kakushitoride 1 month ago
I really appreciate the research here, that is much more than a kaeshiwaza work. The aim of this is to try to comprehend the action, the flow, the direction and above all Uke. All this leads to more questions than to an answer to nikyo ura.
To those who think that a "good" nikyo would prevent from this "reverse", I think that, on the contrary, only a "correct "nikyo" would allow this. As most of the kaeshi wazas.
maotzetof 5 months ago
@maotzetof, Thank you for your insightful comment. If aikido is practiced in alignment with its core principle it cannot be "reversed" because to harmonize means to "move with." Only if nage's action is counter to uke's intention can it be "reversed." You have understood that what we have demonstrated - that the common way of applying nikyo as a wrist lock is not in harmony with uke's intention but is in essence an attack on one's partner. This is why nage has to trap uke's hand to do it.
Kakushitoride 5 months ago
@Kakushitoride
I easily understand the principles (while I hardly succeed in applying it), it reminds me Kobayashi Senseï or Hakira Hino in the research. Always do simple but always connected. It is so complicated to be simple.
Sorry to ask, but it seems to me I've seen you before. Have you ever come in France to practice Aikido ?
maotzetof 4 months ago
@maotzetof I have never been to France to practice, but have you come to seminars in the U.S.?
It is a simple idea to connect and harmonize, but the problem arises from our true intention. Even though many aikidoists espouse the idea of aikido being unifying and harmonizing, in practice their intention is to control or "lead." Both things put nage into the driver seat, not in a position of "co-traveller" in which the aiki unfolds spontaneously based on the connection. We want takemusu aiki.
Kakushitoride 4 months ago
@Kakushitoride
No, I've never been in the US for Aikido. But I will investigate :0))
I totally agree, the need of control, this feeling we have to "submit" in order to "win" , are as many "mind-walls" we must get rid off.
maotzetof 4 months ago
@maotzetof, agreed! This is the nature of our practice - to truly and literally embody the application of aikido as "the loving protection of all things" in a way that is absolutely effective. It will be fun to practice with you when you visit us in Los Angeles!!
Kakushitoride 4 months ago
I watched this and tried it. It can be done
BUST0BIWAN 5 months ago
I read lot's of comments about this video and I'm glad to see I wasn't only me that didn't quite get-it. I could almost agree with one person commenting that this is one of those things that should ether be broken down in a class and not in public. It's very easy to see this as a "counter" attack and not see the flowing Ki in this video when you say "Never get trapped by Nikyo again". I'm still not yet convinced that it works, but I'll give it a try on my next practice day.
therickmon1 1 year ago
@therickmon1
Yes, we didn't do a very good job with it because our understanding of what we were working with was not as developed as it is now, two years later (and my flippant comment didn't help, you are right). We actually talked today about making a new video that explains what we doing more clearly and succinctly. Thanks again for your interest and comments
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
Wait! In this video you said the one uke has been doing Nikyo for 18 yrs. Well it looks as if all 3 of you've been doing it incorrectly for a long time. The way you're all applying Nikyo is very unsafe. You're standing directly in front of Tori. The idea is to move a little to the outside of uke. Away from his line. As long as you're in his line, he can reverse any movement. Please try.
therickmon1 1 year ago
If you feel inclined to "correct" our nikkyo technique, please read the following first:
@therickmon1
Thanks for your observation, but it is apparent you have missed the point of this video completely. I am sorry our point is not clear. This is not to show a nikkyo reversal or even prove someone can reverse a pain compliance technique that has already been applied.
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
It is to show that the energy necessary to apply a pain compliance technique such as the classic nikkyo is extended as a constricted flow of ki, the same as any attack, and is therefore subject to ai ki do, or a harmonious extension of beneficent ki, that will allow the nikkyo applier’s energy to take him to the floor without resistance.
First of all, please acknowledge that no one in the role of nage (tori) is going to get himself in a position to receive an application of this wrist lock...
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
...as it is based on an attack. When we put ourselves on the receiving end of this wrist lock it is not to demonstrate how to get out of a nikkyo should your aikido lead you to become an uke. If it does, you are not doing aikido anyway. If you are attacking then you are not nage in aikido.
None of us have been doing Nikkyo “wrong” all these years. Between us we have received instruction from six teachers who were direct students of Osensei.
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
This is in addition to the teachers in our multiple lineages who were second generation from the founder, and we are all capable of performing a nikkyo that will bring our partner to the floor in pain. If you watch the whole video you will see at around 2:00 the continued application of nikkyo, which sends Rene to his knees. Rene received 5th dan ranking from Michael Moreno Sensei and is not about to fake ukemi. At 4:16 witness the application by Rene to Patrick who is not faking that wince.
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
Same at 4:38. Patrick’s wrist is definitely locked, and I direct the energy of the lock right through his wrist to his center. Likewise at 4:50 Rene is obviously applying an effective pain compliance technique, or Patrick is a great actor. The same is clear at 5:15.
Next, please understand that as we apply the pain compliance version of nikkyo we do not apply it to the point in which uke must acquiesce. We are only bringing it to the cusp of when the pain will bring a reflexive action.
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
Again, our goal is not to demonstrate the right way to apply a nikkyo that will dominate one’s partner but to illustrate that the energy flow inherent in a technique like nikkyo is an attack rather than a harmonious blending with uke’s attack. We show this by demonstrating that by harmonizing with the nikkyo it actually brings the applier to the ground rather than the intended target.
This would not be possible if the application of nikkyo is a harmonious action.
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
Our practice is dedicated to developing skills that will allow us to embody the highest ideals of aikido as espoused by the founder, for it to be wholly effective while truly being the “loving protection of all things.” It cannot be this if domination through pain compliance is what is being practiced.
For an explanation of how nikkyo can be utilized without creating pain, please see our video “Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo.”
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
This is why I believe Aikido is a much more practical martial art for todays society. The sort of sound kicking and destruction techniques I was taught in Ju jitsu and Ninjitsu are going to land you in prison unless you are using them on the battlefield where they were first devised. All martial arts have there applications for the modern world, but if you want to put a sleeper on someone a la ju jitsu, you better start praying they wake up again.
seancoppinger 1 year ago
yes this is true.. but there is still pain involved. Wrist locks hurt. If a person is inflexible maybe even bending down is painful.. I don't mean to say that you should hurt people and dominate them and conquer them. You said you can't think of them as an enemy, and the idea is to help them to the ground. But it still hurts. If someone punched you, and you performed tsuki kotegaishi and he softly fell on the ground, chances are his wrist would still hurt. You leave a lot up to them.
freek32 1 year ago
@freek32
The way we view it, there is no reason to do anything that causes discomfort, first because the harmonious aspect of aikido precludes the need for it, and second because causing any discomfort puts nage in a dominating role no matter how little it hurts. That includes the commonly accepted way of using kotegaishi.
We don't want to leave anything to uke. We think of our aikido as the loving protection of all things. We want to resolve the conflict in a pro-actively positive way.
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
Nikyo kills my wrists. I am doing my 5th kyu test tomorrow, and have been training a lot these past few weeks. My wrists are NOT happy with me haha.
The pain aikido inflicts is much less severe than if you were to say stab a man for attacking you. The goal is to flow with whatever is thrown at you and have both parties come out generally uninjured.
freek32 1 year ago
@freek32
Our goal is not "to flow with whatever is thrown at you and have both parties come out generally uninjured."
Our goal is to flow in such a way that the "loving protection of all things" is accomplished, the conflict is resolved, and unity is achieved. Who is going to feel that unity is achieved just because they are uninjured but still in pain and having been dominated by a pain compliance technique?
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
I know that O-Sensei preached a lot of "love and peace," but when you strip away the philosophy, isnt ALL of aikido counter-ATTACKS? While we may take care of uke and not want to really hurt anyone, an applied technique is still an attack. Period. From Juji-nage to maki-otoshi or kateguruma, its all *attacks* PS. why not show counter techniques? If you have openings an opponent could exploit you *deserve* to be countered.
LargeBlueCircle 1 year ago
@LargeBlueCircle
Osensei isnt preaching, he is reflecting on the nature of reality. This man was trained to kill and was not naïve. He would never have expressed such a philosophy without something to back it up. He was not out to fool anyone, he only shared what he had discovered that beneficence can produce a flow of universal energy through the benefactor that accepts and consumes the energy of the attack. If you meet it with non-resistance it will go to the ground of its own accord.
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
His descriptions of what aikido is to him are not advice by Osensei to play nice, they were about the source of why what he was doing was effective. Osensei himself said that techniques themselves were limited. What makes them invincible is when they manifest in accordance with aiki. This manifestation can only occur when the person attacking is not viewed as an enemy to be destroyed.
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
So, no, the techniques need not be counter attacks. When the attacker is viewed as a person making a human error instead of as an antagonist who needs to be punished, the aikido techniques become ways of helping the person to the ground as he throws himself, or like being a lifeguard saving someone from drowning without drowning himself.
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
Hmmm - i understand your point of view with the question, thou there are veryfied Aikido counter techniques to all the basic techniques - but these should not be shown in public, they belong to the long term dedicated aikido Ka´s and Sensei´s for many good reason that im´ shure do not need to be explained to a dedicated person like you.
HesteBremse 1 year ago
Sorry, but perhaps I wasn't clear. This is not a demonstration of a "counter" to a nikyo, but to demonstrate that it is "counterable" because it is essentially an attack. Pain compliance technique is not a manifestation of harmonizing but one of domination. If you are implying that non-aikidoka need to be kept unaware because the advantage would be lost, I would consider that notion in the realm of fighting and not aikido. We follow the edict of Osensei that our aikido be "loving protection"
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
@Kakushitoride With humility, my opinion after having studied this technique for many years is this is not an attack. It is all about the spirit in which technique is given. If performed correctly, Nage does NOT put Uke into Nikkyo, Uke puts himself into it by the nature of his attack. ALL Aikido techniques have reversals and counters if you want to get technical. It is not the tech, but the spirit in which it is used. Peace.
Deke101 1 year ago
@Deke Thanks for your observation. That is our point. When uke puts himself into it (see our clips "easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo"), it is not "reversible" although it may flow into something else. However when nikkyo is applied with the intention of locking the wrist and forcing submission through pain compliance, then it IS an attack and subject to countering, proving it so. If one's application is in harmony then it will require no "trapping" of the fingers and be effective using one hand only
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
The spirit in which aikido is utilized is everything because that determines how ki flows. Fear causes restrictions in flow, beneficence produces expansion. The technical reflects the spirit in which the practitioner operates. Desire to control, dominate, defend are born of fear. Transcendence of fear is necessary for takemusu aiki which is not "reversible" because it is continually in harmony.
Kakushitoride 1 year ago
@Kakushitoride Yes. Saotome Sensei has spoken of this during his classes. If one tries to 'do' Aikido to someone, it is no longer Aikido.
Domo.
Deke101 1 year ago
Ooooh, your wrists must hurt after that much practise :S
couragedk 2 years ago
Ha ha ha, yes, because we waited until the nikyo was affecting the limbic system before we sent ki flow into the partner's center...
Kakushitoride 2 years ago
Yea, exactly ;) i think it hurts after just a few nikyo'es... I really hope you warmed up you wrists before you began :)
I really like your way to explain how to perfrom the techniques :)
If you ever come to Denmark, please let me know ;)
couragedk 2 years ago
easy to see, not easy to follow... I need a lot of practice to apply and fully understand a technique like you guys do,
thanx for sharing =)
yayogde74 2 years ago
This is an interesting experiment in the flow of ki. We have done extensive practice in reversals where uke and nage switch roles in a continuous flowing practice. With Nikyo, we usually have uke drive his elbow upward and into nage's center via his face. This pretty much neutralizes Nikyo.
I don't believe Nikyo is non Aiki. It just gives Nage another option. Just as a spanking is an option in proper parenting.
Deke101 2 years ago
Thanks for your comment.
While it's up to everyone to practice the way they see fit, our goal is to take the force out. We feel that imposing our will on someone else is antithetical to the very nature of harmony.
For instance, while spanking a child can be a tool to keep a child from doing dangerous things, we seek a way to accomplish the goal without resorting to violence, even if mild. The nikyo we employ in our practice (not in this clip) is painless and a direct result of uke's intention.
Kakushitoride 2 years ago
Nikyo painless??? I have had to use Aikido in real life altercations. Painless doesn't compute to someone trying to clobber you with a glass bottle. I don't think painless is what O'Sensei had in mind. There is a difference between causing an attacker pain and causing damage. In controling a violent situation, I believe one must be assertive. A little pain can go a long way to avoiding damage.
Deke101 2 years ago
Remember that Hombu Dojo was referred to ass 'Hell Dojo' by some of it's oldest students. This was a direct result of the pain they went through to study Aikido. Now I know O'Sensei chilled out quite a bit later in life and refined Aikido into a much more subtle art. I don't think his main goal was to avoid causing any pain. I think it was to avoid casuing harm. We already practice so as not to 'force' a tech to work, but this is not because of pain, but because of the natural flow of ki.
Deke101 2 years ago
I can't argue with you for feeling that way, but for us
using aikido to win fights is "been there, done that." We are now focusing our training on becoming so harmonious that we can become true protectors of our attackers as we believe Osensei intended for aikido to literally make the world one through the loving protection of all things.
Thanks for your comment.
Kakushitoride 2 years ago
I´m sorry but I didn´t understand why the hell both are fallinf on the ground when nikkyo gets applied
patrickangus16 2 years ago
interesting!
segacircolare 2 years ago
I must really say that this is some verry good videos.
It's like when you watch them, you can feel the connection, between these two men.
/cheers Robin. This is like Art.
MrBunnyProduction 2 years ago
I have to admit this video created quite a conversation in my dojo :) Sensei saw me and senpai talking about this and trying it. It was interesting to see how sensei easily nullified it by just following the flow of energy of our response. That makes you really understand how (theorically) by following the flow of energy 2 equal skilled people could go on forever.
P.S. Just one thing tho. Nikkyo doesn't really need to cover the hand to be done if done well, by attacking the center.
charyuop 2 years ago
I'm glad this started the conversation!
If your sensei could "nullifiy" something it was because the energy you were extending was constricted into an attack itself. That's the point to this examination!
Think about it - can aikido manifest between two "nages?" Of course not. It can only manifest between uke and nage. Two ukes will only produce a fight or a violent outcome, not aikido. Two nages - no aikido because no one is attacking. An uke and a nage = aikido.
Kakushitoride 2 years ago
Nikyo "done well, by attacking the center" is what the
clip is about. Osensei often said that aikido is not about dominating another person or winning a fight. Why would you attack anyone's center unless you are uke? Attacking the center is the defining characteristic of uke.
If the application of nikyo causes discomfort of any kind it is an attack and therefore is subject to the application of true aikido.
Thanks for taking up the conversation. Truth is found by challenging the old ideas.
Kakushitoride 2 years ago
Really clear, and I've always wondered about that switch in energy direction, thanks for making the vector of flow so apparent.
mugsford 2 years ago
Great class!
natsuame 2 years ago
NOOOoOoOoooOo Nikyo was my favorite :(
Now I need to learn to counter the counter to the counter of my counter :( Fiddlesticks.
I like the way of thinking though :)
dasgregorian 3 years ago
Ha ha! Don't misunderstand me - I am not opposed to nikyo, as uke will under the appropriate circumstances put it on him or herself. Our clip is to demonstrate how the intention of putting on a joint lock causes the person executing it to constrict his ki flow rather than to expand it in a way that is more conducive to aiki manifesting spontaneously. This same kaewaza can be shown with kotegaeshi and sankyo when applied as a pain compliance technique.
But when they are found in harmony...
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
As a beginner, I think people misunderstand the joint locks. In real demonstration, the joint locks must have continuous tai sabaki with kokyu.
Here's the killer question: are not ALL of the joint locks as vulnerable as this one if you rely on the pain to do the work? Is there a dimension of 'ura' technique to mirror classic Aikido ukemi, technique, but which reverse the roles again?
What happens if you really kiai into the nikyo like uke is going to die .5 seconds later anyway? Is it courtesy?
aphor 3 years ago
I agree with you. I would also go one further and say that any intention on nage's part to subjugate the attacker in any way leaves openings for counter attack.
If you have been in jiuwaza with an attacker trying to apply a joint lock or trying to force you into an aikido throw you know how easy it is to simply not be caught. It is a more dynamic demonstration that aikido is not about fighting but about unification. A real attack met with ki brings attacker to the floor without effort.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
True it may not work if applied slowly, or done incorrectly, however, if you were unbalanced & hit with an atemi first and the person applying nikyo is already set up while trying to regain your center you wouldn't have the time to reverse, trust me.
elmert5 3 years ago
If I was practicing aikido, why would I be unbalanced? If I was practicing aikido I would not be hit with an atemi.
The need to "hit" someone with an atemi first in order to unbalance them to a point at which we can inflict a painful nikyo from which they cannot escape is what is unnecessary and out of harmony with the idea of "loving protection of all things," which is why we moving toward levels of aikido that are still effective but aspiring to the goals of the founder to unify not destroy.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
"out of harmony"?. That is an interesting thing to say. Often we here people talk about the harmony of Aikido. But what is harmony? I for sure, can not explain it. At least not in a way so that it's understandable and accepted be everyone.
Harmony is just a subject of your own thinking, is it not? This "harmony" as you call it, may be interpreted differently by us all with no one being more corrext than the other about what it really is.
z1xz1zx1z 2 years ago
You could substitute "in conflict" or "in opposition" for "out of harmony." Even if words are to be interpreted differently, the feeling of opposition or conflict is not the same as when in harmony.
Though words may fail us, for me harmony is the quality of things working together. In the case of aikido it is working together to "complete Uke's mission" (paraphrasing Osensei).
Kakushitoride 2 years ago
Hi! Great video! It puzzled me at first. Our version of Nikkyo being slightly different, I thought it would not work. My wife and I just tried it one minute ago! I'm sure you know what the result was! Keep posting!
aiki3d 3 years ago
Thanks so much for giving it a try! It would have been much easier to reject the concept as "nikyo done wrong." Wait until you try it with the pain compliance version of sankyo. You will achieve the same result...just be careful, lol...
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Nykio is from my point of vue mostly mental, so in my case, i try to control uke´s body using anatomy but eliminating the pain with your spirit. I want to thank you for your conversation.
biovrsic 3 years ago
Thank you!
Hopefully by the time you reach shodan you will be able to control yourself, and then there will be no need to control uke in any regard...
;-)
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
So you are not talking about the technique but about a bad nage? In that case the nage isn´t learning well aikido´s priciples
biovrsic 3 years ago
What I am really talking about is an evolution in aikido from when Osensei was shifting his emphasis from martial to spiritual applications.
When I was originally taught nikyo, it was meant to control one's attacker by locking the wrist. That is still the predominant mindset as far as I can see.
If you have a teacher who teaches a nikyo in which you don't have to trap uke's fingers on your wrist in order to keep his grab in place or to lock his wrist to maintain control I call you lucky!
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
I think Nikkyo is a powerfull way to stop an attack but musts be used with carefull. The most important is that nikkyo is used to disflict an attack, not to hurt. Even if done hard, nykkyo shouldn´t hurt (by hurt i meen injure) the uke.
biovrsic 3 years ago
I appreciate your intention not to injure your partner, but our goal, first is not to put a brake on an attack but to allow the attack to be expressed completely so that our partner, in the words of O-Sensei, "can complete his mission."
Also, our goal is to not inflict pain as we do not feel that this is in the spirit of "loving protection. Our purpose is to practice aikido that is totally harmonious and still retains its effectiveness in creating resolution without infliction of discomfort.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
To see more of what we have in mind, please see our clips "Easy ikkyo, painless nikyo" parts 1 & 2.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
I know that i dont have much knoledge about aikido, as i am only 5th kyu. But from what i have learned if you manage to blend with the attacker no technique will be an attack or hurt him. After all, o sensei said that "injuring the oponent is injuring youself".Nykkio is a nice technique because it shows the blend with the opponent and the control of the strenght. An uke that receives nykkyo is not braked but softly guided down.A complete blend. Thank for replying
biovrsic 3 years ago
YES! I agree! You are talking about the kind of nikyo demonstrated in our clips "Easy ikkyo, painless nikyo" 1 & 2.
This clip is meant to demonstrate that the nikyo which uses pain compliance to subjugate one's attacker causes the nage to become the attacker himself, and as such becomes subject to an aiki resolution with himself as uke.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Great video, interesting to see a new perspective (both physically and mentally) on such a well known technique. I should talk this over with my aikido teachers. Thanks for posting this!
Jereplofje 3 years ago
If the attacker try to push himself out of the nikkyu, I would switch to a rokkyu and uke will find himself on the ground.
On the other hand I practice nikkyu not like the 3 guys in the video, both of my elbows are down, so he can´t push himself out of the technique.
best regards from Germany!
snipsel 3 years ago
No pushing from nage, please! The person generating the most constricted flow of ki will always be the one who finds himself on the ground as long as the partner is harmonizing with the constricted flow of ki in a connected way through a non-constricted way.
Remember, the very word Aikido is based on harmony, not force.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
And thanks for the regards from Germany! Best regards from the United States to you as well!
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
wow...that was cool...i'm gonna try that on my next class...maybe impress my teacher^^. I got quite surprised that you really could get out of the technique by just move his centre...thanks for the tip:P
SweGuitarMan 3 years ago
Please remember this is a demonstration of something very difficult to achieve. Before "impressing" your teacher this way, you might investigate how able you are to embody a center-to-center connection first. Everything is dependent on that.
Our entire practice consists of finding meaningful ways of maintaining connection with our partners through an optimum ki flow state. While we feel we are making progress at this, none of us are so foolish as to think we can do it 100% of the time.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
that happens when u do an incorrect nikyo... im sure if this guy try to do this when having a good nikyo he might get a broken wrist
pulermo 3 years ago
I know this must be a hard concept to grasp, but the point of this video is NOT to show HOW to reverse nikyo. After all, what kind of aikidoka is going to find himself in a position to be receiving it? Only an attacker would be in that position.
The point is to demonstrate that nikyo when applied this way IS an attack in every aspect of the word - it is meant to cause pain or injury in the furtherance of winning a confrontation, and as such it is subject to aikido the way any other attack is.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Im sorry but at any point as you become the more dominant force in the conflict you are attacking, otherwise you would both stand there holding hands.
tadkiwi 3 years ago
Exactly, which is why if you are practicing aikido as nage you will never be a dominant force, but a harmonious one.
You hold hands with a friend. An attacker is not holding your hand, but providing all the force necessary. The Aikidoka only needs to harmonize with that force in order for Aikido to manifest.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
I'm sorry but I can't understand whats going on with the person who applies nikkyo... why does he fall to the ground... please reply! I'm really curious about this!
GuayacoKid 3 years ago
This video demonstrates that nikyo, when applied as a painful wrist lock is actually an attack subject to harmonizing in a true aiki sense. The partner applying the nikyo in a painful way falls because the other partner transcends the response that produces resistance and instead extends ki from his center as a flood rather than a constricted flow. A flood of ki absorbs the constricted flow like a lake absorbs water from a fire hose. the flood moves the partner's center to the floor.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Applying pain in nikyo and other pin techniques is necessary, and let consider what will happen to someone who is falling on the ground after a throw. Without applying pain most techniques will never work. The thought of loving protection of all things is that you dont serious hurt or kill your opponent.
Well, this is my point of view.
aikidoamsterdam 3 years ago
Applying pain is absolutely NOT necessary. It goes against the principle of harmony.
We allow each other to go into rolls as aikidoka because we trust each other to know how to roll. Everything we work on allows us to also "throw" without throwing so that in the case of an "off-the-mat" uke we become a support at the resolution of the aiki interaction rather than an aggressor.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
An Aikido student is late for class. he see's a long dark alley to the left of him, and figures it will save time. 50 punks jump him, of course he beats the crap out of them and moves on to class.
the Aikido master is in the hurry to his class, and again sees the alley. he's half way down when he gets jumped by 50 guys. he throw's them all around without anyone getting hurt, and moves on down to the dojo.
O-Sensei is late for class. He see's the alley, looks at it, and passes right on by.
pancreaticforce 3 years ago
i agree, this is not basket weaving we are studying,
it is dealing with conflict physically
isn't it???
tadkiwi 3 years ago
Yes, it is, but our goal is to deal with physical conflict from a principle of harmony not dominance. If dominance is the goal then Aikido will never work. True, one can use joint manipulations to cause pain and injury, but how does that advance Osensei's stated goal of aikido to be "a way of harmonizing the world and unifying the human race as one family."?
I've never felt unified with anyone who broke my wrist, have you?
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Excellent view point, i will work on in with my class!!!
this is aikido henkawaza ( advanced reversal of techniques), GREAT STUFF thanks
williamross77 3 years ago
You cannot apply a Nikyo and stay there watching your opponent to see what happens ..... You should know that... Nikyo is a fast wrist break, followed by an Ikkio to the ground.
joseignacio0225 3 years ago
Which would really make it an attack, no? Is your aikido about the "loving destruction of all wrists?"
Once again, we are not demonstrating that the violence of a hard nikyo is something that we want to invite and then fight against. We are demonstrating that the energy flow in a painful nikyo is the same as any attack. As a result of that it is subject to an aiki resolution.
It sometimes takes a paradigm shift in order to see that creating pain is not the highest level of aikido.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
If pins are only on the joints it probably works, yes. If a pin is extended deeply through uke (all the way to his feet), the same line occurs as the line ths sensei is using when reversing/kaeshi waza the nikkyo.
To control some one with a low pain level, who can handle a lot pain (alcohol or medication or drugs), how will you be able to use/apply a pin in order to 'control/meet'?
Nevertheless, great exploration and looking forward to more investigation. Thanks.
cvhaperen 3 years ago
I assume you mean that there is a difference between joint locks and connection to center, and I agree. However, if either one of those attempts to pin consist of a constricted flow of ki, then they can be overcome with a flood of ki. The "flood" offers no resistance and is not reversible.
Regarding your question about pain tolerance, a center to center connection affects balance and has nothing to do with compliance due to pain.
Thanks for your thoughtful consideration!
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
anyone know their names? sorry if it's already been mentioned. this is an interesting view on kaeshi waza. although some styles of aikido project nikkyo forward, not down and in. still, makes for interesting conversation. cute, too.
annecy123 3 years ago
thats very good. but since were looking at flow. remember theirs another lock from the position going down. it is the one gozo shioda does aside from Nikyo. by reversing nikyo you leave your self open to a rising wrist lock. find a reverse to that.
MrPinoy91 3 years ago
One only leaves oneself open for anything if one is attacking.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
In our dojo our shidoin and visiting shihan always make a point that nage's elbows should be pulled in tight against nage's sides, rather than over uke's elbow. I wonder if this would change the flow to the point that the kaeshi waza being shown here would not work. When we've practiced other kaeshi waza, nage is frequently instructed to "allow" an opening in their technique, to illustrate a point, rather than to debate the effectiveness of given waza.
drporpoise 3 years ago
I've seen many different applications of nikyo by various shihan and don't remember any emphasis on elbows being pulled in, but your experience is different than mine.
However there is no opening allowed by us here. As pointed out, we are allowing ourselves to be put in this vulnerable position (what aikido results in finding oneself trapped in nikyo, after all?) to demonstrate that nikyo requires a constricted flow of ki when done in the common way.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
There is no doubt that nikyo is an effective way of bringing one's partner to his or her knees, but it becomes an attack when force is applied in order to use pain to create compliance.
This kaeshi waza demonstrates that aiki makes ineffective the attack inherent in a hard style nikyo.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Creo que la contratecnica sale porque los agarres para hacer la tecnica no son muy precisos.
jluistl 3 years ago
Recuerde, por favor, aikidoka en el papel del nage no van a conseguirse en nikyo en el primer lugar. We' VE permitió que nuestros socios lo aplicaran con nuestros permisos para la baladronada de la experimentación no.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
and continued again
Removing the idea that I "do" a technique and ukemi is the response I learn to be safe is worth an investigation I think.
Most fun Corky !
Kelly
valleywineandcheese 3 years ago
Cont.
I also noticed in the 1935 video of O'Sensei that much of his"technique" led to kokyu nage style movement...The kokyu nage flow seems much more what we are talking about ie Aiki movement.
Corky's teaching model where ukemi is learned first and comes to include the kind of energy and direction...ie proper intent.. in the "attack" part of ukemi, which leads to a technique presenting itself is kind of backasswards from the way we learned.
valleywineandcheese 3 years ago
Hi CGrealy, Hi Corky
I tried this the other day in my dojo and had a 50/50 response. Some caught on, some didn't get the idea at all. I found that our standard Kaeshi worked way easier with this mindset as well.
And I found trying to feel where uke wanted to go ended up as often as not in a fairly typical technique form just because that is the way my body has been moving this past 18 years. O'Sensei said we were to learn the form then leave it behind(sorry for the bad paraphrase...)
valleywineandcheese 3 years ago
contd.. I had a look at your website and found this
"We feel that technique-based practice can create barricades to the spontaneous creation of aiki forms."
That's all well and good, but you need the technique based practice so that your spontaneous aiki forms actually have a martial basis.
cgrealy 3 years ago
I believe it is true that there must be an understanding of form, but that it does not need to be technique-based.
An ukemi-based system can help avoid the gulf between learning techniques and experiencing forms manifesting spontaneously.
If you feel the statement you quoted is "well and good" you might want to consider how those barricades are formed and what can be done to avoid them.
I'm open to hearing about alternatives. Why cease exploring?
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Hi, I have to say when I first say this video I was highly sceptical, but to give you the benefit of the doubt I tried this last night at my dojo.
I tested it as both uke and nage and it utterly failed to work on anyone. Any nage with a half decent nikyo should be able to control uke and not allow the kind of kaeshi waza you demonstrated. For the record, I tried it two big guys and neither could effect that kaeshiwaza.
contd..
cgrealy 3 years ago
This wasn't one night but an examination for years. The hardest thing to do is transcend the limbic system response to being trapped. It may mean a shift in consciousness.
The size of your partners has nothing to do with effectiveness, and your comment about them being big indicates a belief that what we showed has something to do with force and hence a misunderstanding of what we were doing. Strength or size has nothing to do with it.
But at least you had an open mind going in... lol
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
It looks like you have found a gap in the nikyo that is being applied - and that's good. Isn't that a key part of aikido? But, I normally assume it's time to work on the technique more, not dismiss it as ineffective.
The scariest nikyo I have ever had was spooky, delivered by a visiting shihan. It was basic, at his shoulder, and was insanely gentle - there was no feedback from his grip. He was not "constricted".
It's going to take a while to duplicate that, but that's where I'm heading.
ninjapacificity 3 years ago
Without having been there, I would guess that the "insanely gentle, no feedback" nikyo the shihan applied is the kind that is not reversible (see below) because it wasn't constricted and because he was really sending a flood of ki to your center through the path of your intention. You naturally "completed your mission" without resistance and without pain.
We're only suggesting that the traditional nikyo which relies on a wrist lock is more like an attack. Your shihan was in harmony not force.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Thanks for the reply.
That makes more sense to me now. I agree that nikyo can be applied as an attack. I would say this for most aikido techniques. But, that doesn't mean it is the only way it can be applied. And, for me, that doesn't mean it's a bad way to apply it.
I still think the progress is that you have found a gap in your technique. Now you can work on removing the gap. If you cannot do this while keeping it "traditional" then your definition of "traditional" is different from mine.
ninjapacificity 3 years ago
In order to live up to Osensei's edict to continue developing aikido we have chosen a path to find ways of dealing with aggression that eliminate the need for force or pain. For us this means becoming more effective by becoming more harmonious.
We are currently undertaking this through a study of ukemi as integral to aikido, whereas when we began it was all about technique and ukemi was only about staying safe from the force of the throw. Further exploration into nikyo to remove the gap...
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
...can be seen in our clip "Easy Ikkyo, painless nikyo" which exemplifies our belief that flow is more effective than technique any time. Not that no aikido technique is present, but that connection with uke's intention produces the aiki rather than a pre-determined technique to produce a specific result.
In this way aikido manifests spontaneously and no force is necessary nor resistance created.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Congratulations, you discovered kaeshi-waza.
theolifant 3 years ago
What may be more interesting about kaeshi waza is that it is only possible when force is applied in a technique. When there is no force, the "technique" is not reversible because the connection and blending allows the flow to go into another technique.
In other words, if nikyo is the result of a center to center ki connection, uke's counter is not met with resistance but merely flows toward another aiki resolution.
Thanks for the comment!
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
I just came across this and my initial response to it was I did not see what I have been taught as the correct application of nikkyo by Tohei Sensei. I have trained with his senior most students (some no longer living) and nikyo was never about applying pain, it was about leading their mind. You fell without realizing it because connecting with ki they moved your one point. You sort of answered this in your comments. Kaeshi waza becomes very difficult in that context.
kbs1138 3 years ago
I totally agree, though some might object to the word "correct" regarding the application. This is the kind of nikyo in which one must firmly trap the fingers of the person grabbing so that they can not escape.
A nikyo in which one does not have to force the partner to hold on to be effective would not even invite kaeshi waza because the center to center connection of which you wrote would lead the partner to go to the ground voluntarily. See our "Easy ikkyo, painless nikyo" clip.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
thanks for the reply!!! this is why i love aikido.. it isn't fully discovered yet!
i'll try this exercise at my dojo!
ingolyrio 3 years ago
That's why I love it too! Just please be careful because if you react to the pain and try to force the "reverse" you can be injured. The extension of ki in an expanded and fully flowing way is absolutely necessary to create the flow you see here when we do it right, and we often don't do it right.
Remember, aikidoka in the role of nage are not going to get ourselves into nikyo in the first place. We've allowed our partners to apply it with our permissions for experimentation not bravado.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Now i see why this nikio isnt working!!! u dont have to put your arm above the ukes arm... u have to twist! not o use your weigh... if u do the twist move no one can scape the nikio.. it hurts to much to try moving arm.
ingolyrio 3 years ago
The technicalities of applying nikyo are arbitrary or else you wouldn't differences among all the top teachers. Doing "the twist" is attacking your partner (not loving protection). Yes it causes pain, but pain can be overridden otherwise boxing matches would be over in the first round. I understand that it's hard to see in this clip that nikyo was being applied sincerely, but you would know it for sure had you been there. We all have decades of experience applying nikyo the traditional way.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Don't mean to be disrespectful... but this nikio isnt nikio.. cause its stop motion! nobody comes from nothing and perform a nikio.. i've done a lot of nikios and no one scaped...
ingolyrio 3 years ago
Both you and gerkyr have brought up the same point, but this is not supposed to be a technique as you are used to seeing them. If any of us were in a real situation, uke would NEVER be able to get us into a nikyo hold. This exercise is to demonstrate two things: the painful forced application of nikyo is an attack not harmonization, and the constricted flow of ki that is part of any attack is affected by a flood of ki through open channels.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Our purpose in aikido has moved beyond putting our partners in a place from which they can not escape, or even putting them into a place from which they would NEED to escape.
To address gerkyr's comment, by the way, the person applying nikyo in the clip wasn't just waiting. Each was applying it, just not cranking it on. We all had our wrists stretched out by the end of the practice session I can assure you, and had you been there you would have seen that had there been one more ounce
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
of pressure per square inch applied you (and us) would have been on the floor, unless you (we) were able to move beyond our limbic system response to the pain in order to send a flood of ki through the path created by the nikyo application.
Once again, the practice in this exercise is to not get caught in the need to control the situation (this time even through acute pain) so that ki can be extended without constriction.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Personally I prefer traditional nikyo counters from physical realm.If there is a chance, of course. By the way, what would you do if your opponent never heard of ki expansion and just keeps twisting your wrist? With a nice hip motion on top? :) Just a thought
gerkyr 3 years ago
Whether my partner has ever heard of ki or ki expansion is irrelevant. If he kept twisting my wrist with or without a "nice" hip motion, he would become even more of an uke and it would be easier to harmonize with.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Don't mean to be disrespectful, but how come that nage just waits for that counter to happen, sorry, doesn't really work that way, looks amusing, though.
gerkyr 3 years ago
Hi there! Please see response above that addresses your comment as well.
Kakushitoride 3 years ago
Thank you Sensei. Nikyo is my favorite right now and this lifts my spirit.
Have a GREAT day!
DrazzanDuo 3 years ago
Five stars!
Really interesting!
YonatanVC23 3 years ago