Sam Harris: Can Science Determine Human Values? 2-7

[no1hoopsman]

No is the answer; science alone cannot determine human values

[redryan20000]

the title is a bit of a blunder. science is really just natural philosophy, and you can just use philosophy to determine human values. it's not that it's wrong, it's just that it's a bit short sighted

[TodaysThought]

1:30

This guy is such a great speaker that you miss the bullshit. Like the false fact that consciousness is constrained by the laws of nature in some way. What a convoluted, head trip, BS statement. Not based on any science. Sam Harris is a great guy but he's a half wit intellectual looking for the answer.

[audience2]

@TodaysThought Clearly you're one of the people that doesn't value scientific values.

[TodaysThought]

@audience2 - What the heck are scientific values?

[audience2]

@TodaysThought

Scientific Values (according to Sam Harris)

* understanding the world

* respect for evidence

* logical consistency

* intellectual honesty

* parsimony

[TodaysThought]

@audience2 - Thanks, I think Sam is brilliant but I'm not sure about these values. How is "understanding the world" a value? Sounds like hocus pocus to me.

[audience2]

@TodaysThought I think the value is in seeing the world as it really is and being conscious of human perceptual failings that can result in false beliefs.

[TGGeko]

@TodaysThought Because you need to value knowledge in order to know anything. You need to value understanding the world in order to do so.

[TacticusPrime]

@TodaysThought He's a neuroscientist. There is hard evidence that consciousness is ABSOLUTELY constrained by the laws of nature. Physical changes to the brain have fundamental changes to consciousness and character.

[TodaysThought]

@TacticusPrime - "There is hard evidence that consciousness is ABSOLUTELY constrained by the laws of nature."

What a load of crap. What F evidence? Anyone with half a brain understands that consciousness has yet to be fully defined scientifically, let alone understood. Stop pushing your pie in the sky, imaginary daddy, bullshit.

How does a wave become a particle?

[thethirdpoliceman2]

@TodaysThought - Dont yuu get it, they have no evidence. Its just that it get in the way of their fantasy. These people are living in la la land.

[TacticusPrime]

@TodaysThought I'm not sure what the dual nature of electrons has to do with consciousness. When the physical brain is changed, even slight prodding, entirely different experiences occur, like: hearing a sound, losing the ability to play an instrument, speaking a different language, etc. Look it up. We haven't precisely defined in which particular ways the physical brain determines which conscious experiences or innate characteristics, but that doesn't mean we can't show it working.

[thethirdpoliceman2]

@TacticusPrime - Sorry friend, but you just made TT point.

"When the physical brain is changed, even slight prodding, entirely different experiences occur, like: hearing a sound, losing the ability to play an instrument, speaking a different language, etc."

How do you know?

[TacticusPrime]

@thethirdpoliceman2  Because I've seen open brain surgery where this occurred? It's a documented fact. I'm not pulling this out of my ass.

[thethirdpoliceman2]

@TacticusPrime - So, you have observed someone else's brain, AND? How does that relate to your consciousness and the dual nature of electrons? You don't believe that your observation of the electrons has an affect on the electrons? Please explain.

[TacticusPrime]

@thethirdpoliceman2 What? The nature of electrons has nothing to do with whether our conscious selves are dependent on the physical brain. When you alter the physical brain, the conscious self changes. That's all you need to know. It's not necessary to "observe the electrons", as if we were conducting some kind of study of subatomic particles.

[thethirdpoliceman2]

@TacticusPrime - How does a wave become a particle?

[TacticusPrime]

@thethirdpoliceman2 I believe the hypothesis most supported by the scientific community has to do with the fact that at the scale of subatomic particles, particularly tiny leptons, matter and energy are indistinguishable. So it's not a matter of one becoming the other, but their not being divided at all. Electrons do not switch from wave to particle, but are both simultaneously (our limited perception notwithstanding).

[thethirdpoliceman2]

@TacticusPrime - This does not provide an explanation. You're reaching. And it has nothing to do with limited perceptions.

[TacticusPrime]

@thethirdpoliceman2 I really don't understand what you are taking about. I already said that wave-particle duality has nothing to do with whether the physical brain determines our character. People get brain injuries and suddenly no longer like their favorite ice cream or become more/less irritable. There are tens of thousands of cases of these kinds of things. It's not controversial.

[thethirdpoliceman2]

@TacticusPrime -How does a brain injury relate or resolve wave particle duality?

[TacticusPrime]

@thethirdpoliceman2 Wave-particle duality has NOTHING to do with consciousness or character! NOTHING! Why do you keep asking about that?

[BeatleEDs]

@TacticusPrime - Boy are you in over your head. Wave particle duality has everything to do with consciousness. Are you serious? So how is the wave function clasped exactly?

[TacticusPrime]

@BeatleEDs That's like asking why mass warps space-time. We don't know exactly, but it's an observable fact. Why are there 11 spacial dimensions? The data points that way. That has no bearing on whether or not the mind is dependent on the physical brain. Clearly, as we can see from the alteration of the physical brain, it is. The fundamental nature of one's personality is housed in the brain and can be changed by the alteration of that brain. That's been conclusively determined.

[BeatleEDs]

@TacticusPrime - "Why are there 11 spacial dimensions? " huh? I only know of 3, maybe 4 if you include time. WTF are you talking about? There is no data otherwise. I think you mean some math formulas.

You need to study wave particle duality. How can possible particles, create possible brain and possible consciousness? If my brain is matter based, and we know matter interacting with matter creates bigger and bigger possibility, how can I experienced anything actual.

[TacticusPrime]

@BeatleEDs There are 11 spatial dimensions. Don't you know anything about string theory?

The fundamental parts of matter seem to exist as both wave and particle, only our observing frame of reference differentiates between them. That doesn't mean the fundamental properties of that lepton is changed. That's just New Age quackery non-sense. Good grief. This has nothing to do with whether the mind is reliant on the physical brain. Experiments clearly show that it is.

[BeatleEDs]

@TacticusPrime - There are NOT 11 spatial dimensions.No evidence whats so ever. I know everything about string theory and M. You are reaching. And whats with the new age quackery comment. WTF is that? No evidence shows that the MIND (consciousness) is reliant on the brain. Why dont you provide the citations.

And your comment about the lepton shows you have no idea what wave particle duality is

[TacticusPrime]

@BeatleEDs M-theory, which appears to unite quantum mechanics with general relativity, requires 11 dimensions. These are spatial dimensions that are "curled up" inside each other. They are essentially steps above the hypercube.

Mountains who medical data attests to the why the character and personality of a person changes when their physical brain changes. Case like Phineas Gage's reveal that the parts of ourselves that we feel are so solid, really aren't.

Electrons are a kind of lepton.

[BeatleEDs]

@TacticusPrime - This humorous. I know what M-theory is. There is no evidence for for string theory. Are you seriously debating that fact?

I dont think I said anything about character or personality. You sound like you're repeating something someone has told you about consciousness.

"Electrons are a kind of lepton", YES, AND?

[TacticusPrime]

@BeatleEDs Other leptons exhibit wave-particle duality. It seems to simply be a function be so incredibly small.

It seems like you're saying that the mere observation of an electron, aka its "collapse", creates its reality and thus reality can not exist without a consciouness to observe it. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but that interpretation is handily refuted by Schrodinger's cat.

There's no direct experimental evidence for M-theory, but it fits all available data.

[BeatleEDs]

@TacticusPrime - String theory is purely based on mathematics, no data.

[TacticusPrime]

@BeatleEDs There is strong data that supports General and Special Relativity, as well as Quantum Mechanics. M-theory allows for their unification. It's derived from math, yes, but so is all physics at the level of theory work. There's very limited data, as yet. There's a small chance the LHC could give evidence for the Randall–Sundrum model, which would at least definitely prove there are higher spacial dimensions.

[BeatleEDs]

@TacticusPrime - Look, you keep trying to explain to me what string theory (M) is. I know what it is and I happen to find it very compelling so i subscribe to the theory. But thats not what we are talking about. I am pointing out to you that there is no evidence to support it. I am following LHC closely.

[qita0]

@thethirdpoliceman2 It's true. Epilephsy was once treated by separating the two hemispheres from each other by cutting through the corpus callosum. This resulted in not only psychical changes (like having problems with controlling both right and left arm & hand) but also in changes on how one was able to use language. In some kinds of brain damages (called aphasia), person can lose the ability to speak but retain the ability to read, or lose the ability to read but be able to speak etc.

[Mutex50]

People living to 1000 years would lead to overpopulation and greatly harm society.

[TacticusPrime]

@Mutex50 Not if people had fewer children, or just way more slowly. Or moved out into the vastness of space.