I don't mean to be that guy, but seriously, I've been watching videos for about a week now, from the beginning, and I've had to watch most of them on mute because I literally couldn't stand CONSTANTLY hearing "cat sammy" "nagi sammy" "yari sammy" and things like that, I'm not going to flame you and tell you to stop, I'm not even going to use all caps like most people who type negative comments do. Just telling you my opinion, it's mostly my OCD and please, don't think I hate you either, I don't.
hey, cool vid, but imo you entirely forgot to mention the unfair advantage dlc players have over vanilla players, i.e. nag monk cav is the only cav unit in the game that can upgrade anti cav stats, fire cav = great guard w/o retainer if upgraded correctly, the cheap nagi attendants are ridiculous (try prestiging as a vanilla player, it sux), and then the ridiculous dlc retainers, some of which you mentioned in the video and so on, would be cool if you could address this issue in your vids too
Nagi spams are beatable, yes, but annoying in that the only counter to them is kiting, camping, or some combination of the two; and who wants to do that every other game?
The beauty of warfare is about using strategy to suit your advantages. You either have a ranged, cavalry, or infantry advantage. As it is now, spear core infantry can overpower swords, thus making any advantage in the cavalry department almost negligible. So although the game seems to be more balanced now, it is in fact still very heavily imbalanced in the rock, paper, scissor area. I like the matchlock and LS nerfs, but I still detest this game as it is right now. For balance? SC2 is my choice.
@yangleoo yangleoo is laying down some wisdom up in here. I was gonna post some lengthy comments but looks like he's said pretty much everything I would.
@yangleoo Medieval II (Though against AI its to easy no matter what 3 Peasant Archers can defeat 3 Templar Knights and 4 Dismounted English Knights mainly because the enemy is to stupid to move thinking I will attack head on)
Unfortunately what we see now are swords barely beating spears, which can easily be remedied with a few cavalry on the spear side....and not to mention warcries and the almost unbreakable morales of nagi monks just blows the proportions apart. There are still several things such as retainers that need fixing, but on a whole, I think they need to make the rock paper scissor situation more clear first.
I believe they attended for a rock, paper, scissor game with shogun 2. Although it may be true that spears weren't used enough pre-patch I believe they still should not be the bulk of an army like how it is now. A significant nerf may stop people from using nag monks as a core, but they are still viable as special role units. Spears should not be a core in an army without being heavily punished against swords...just as cavalry are currently heavily punished by spears.
@yangleoo I really don't think CA should be discouraging cores with their hotfixes. The aim of balance in this game should be to allow any core, as long is it is beatable against a balanced army. I agree that my "ideal" for nagi monks would be as a support unit, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see them as anything other than flank support in an opponent's comp. As long as they're viable, they're fine. A slight buff to swords would make nagi spam hilariously beatable.
@MrBropocalypse I don't think they should be discouraging any cores either. I was using examples, and I did mention that spears (in this case nagi monks) should not be a core without being heavily punished by something else (in this case i used swords). Just as how sword cores have a heavy counter of cavalry. Even with swords decisively beating nagi monks, it does not remove them from being a core. You cannot have balance when 1 unit can withstand everything very well.
@yangleoo Pre-patch was a simple loan sword and matchlock over powered problem to be honest. Perhaps some other tweaks were neccessary too, but right now the balance mechanic has gone too. I had 2 types of armies pre-patch and before loan sword spams came into fashion. 1 was the typical sword core, the 2nd was a spear core with swords as support. I integrated between the two during refresh times. The point is, a balanced army should be able to beat any army with good strategy.
@yangleoo When I said nagi monks can still be used as a support role in other core armies, that is also just an example. You could still play a nagi core and easily beat an army that has a hard counter (in this case I suggested swords) so long as you use a balanced army and play to your advantages. With the entire rock paper scissor mechanic messed up by a simple "swords no longer dominate spears" or "scissors no longer cuts paper" the entire game's balance has been flushed out.
I agree nagi monks should get restrictions. i would Like that you only can bring 2 nagi monks and only 1 monk cav to a battle. change the warcry to not be stackible.
they should not touch the stats on the units but change the retainers so they dont buff up nagi monks.
I would also like to see that bow fire on a nagi monk unit would affect its moral and start to waver after like 2-3 volleys as they are vurnible to bow fire why not add this to it aswell to make monks easier to get rid off
Nagi samis are no problem a good kat sami core/ninja core same with matchlocks can easly take away nagi samis and quite fast aswell alost faster then a nagi monks would. I rather see nagi sami's on the battle field then 10 nagi monks in the same army.
And i like the new spear heavy cores as it more realistical if you look at the history.
I think the reason that the devs do not hotfix every time there is an issue is because they want people to figure out ways to counter it by themselves. Eventually, if there really aren't any decent ways to counter it, they'll patch it.
I think they nerfed the katana samurai way too much, they were really a skilled group of men, and capping them at four, but then making the current sword retainers effect only ash, and the old ones effect samurais, that would rebalance the game, and needing spear retainers, too.
I think that the patch is just what shogun needed, and I now love the game again as I did when I first got it. I never see matlocks or loan swords anymore :)
Don't forget slightly upgraded warrior monk cav. They take on my fully upgrade fire cav + great guard/yari cav and STILL win. mon cav fight to the death while my cav routes if they lose 2/3 of their men... i just don't understand.
the only thing I care about is the warrior monk/bow monks. nerf warrior monks morale/warcry and make bow monks more expensive because they still tear apart everything i throw at them.
I said this in fishies video and i will say it again. Anyone who says monk spam is not OP, either doesnt play match made, hasnt fought a good player, or hasnt fought the professional spam. Anyone who has played match made, and claims its easy, send me your steam name and i will cheese like hell VS your balanced army and prove my point.
i don't see a problem with the nag spam, it's annoying and i don't like it. but i've brought a sword core and beat these guys. it's as easy as having a strong bow contingent and a strong holding force to shoot up the nags while they're being held up. i personally like 3 katana samurai, 2 monks, 1 loansword of high level, 2 naginata or yari ash, 3-4 bow samurai and 3-4 yari cavalry. or variations of that.
@kevinzawssum as DJYC said, some skilled players r using this armys, its not like they just send their whole force against ur spearwall, and wait for u to envelop and shoot up, some guys actually know what to do with their spamms, not all of them, its true, there is some hardcore noobs out there playing super spammers, but its still very annoying to face an orde of naggis runing like blind bats.
@Kytolk yes, very true, and i'm not saying i haven't lost to them. it is quite annoying. whatever your opinion, i respect it, i just find that a huge nagi spam does have it's problems.
i think combining the private forum idea with rapid hotfix patches would help the game the most... Each hotfix they could just focus on rebalancing one unit or one unit type, release the patch let the community play it for a couple weeks. then feedback can be carried back up to CA from the community through the private forum/private forum members... The only issue is how would the ~10 members of the private forum be decided upon?
Totally agree about the retainer system being the cause of the problems. Retainers simply have to be redone completely. Since I started playing the game I never could understand why swords had 3 retainers, yari/nagi 2, cavalry only one. And why there where 10 usefull retainers(more like 7 or 8) while the rest 30 where usefull to like1%of those 10.
When I look back to when the game launched and I was destroying people with a army with a core of 6-8 kata sams, I finally understand how bad that was
i dont think Nag sams are as OP as nag monks (with stacked retainers) - just debuff monks and the game will be ok except issues with these bloody ladders that ppl constantly try to manipulate. Swords were traditionally a support unit for the spears so i think they should be a little cheaper but the stats add up.
@rattue498 true, some ppl complain about the ash armys, but its the way it was, maybe more yari sams, all others were elite and suporters. samurais were not all that common on Japan, for those who dont know ;) lets say they were as common as the rich ppl of today ;P
That might be too extreme, I think that being evening out the retainers and upgrades so they give same bonuses to either swords or spears would be enough.
I dont think that they will weaken the Ikko Ikki retainers.. They want to motivate ppl like me to buy the Ikko Ikki DLC, so they have an easier time online.. But I refuse to do that.. Last time I played was way b4 the last patch because I was just so goddamn annoyed with all the overpowered retainers, loan swords spams and what not, i couldnt to myself.. Totally anti community move by CA there.. Forcing me to buy that shit..
agreed on monks and reatiners, i find the naggi samis well balanced with kat without retainers, so i think the main prob are the retainers. u guys should try a 1v1 kat vs nag monk vanilla no retainers, i bet they r almost equal. monk should win on war cry but lose on the armour. just my thinking. take care and keep the good work
are u kidding me,balanced game omg spears rule how game can be good?system is totally broken....Samurai is Monks bich even nuns are stronger then Katana if properly charged,cav lose their purpose spears defence upgrade give 3 points and sword 2.....game is crappy now they turned katanas into support unit.......
I completely agree with you on this especially the nagitana spam(both monks and samis) spam nagi samis with monk cavs+ war cry will rout all your swords in no time
I have to disagrre with nagi samis being not op.I had a 2v2 match recently and the enemy had lvl 5 nagi samis, my kat samis with 20 atk + stand and fight lost badly, still we pulled out a victory thanks to my bulletproof samis with only 33 men and a back attack^^ ( rapid advance FTW!!)
what is kinda strange that in senguku jidai most of the armies was made out of ashigarus =/ and that spears was the normal weapon in battle lol oh well nothing they can do about it now =/
I don't mean to be that guy, but seriously, I've been watching videos for about a week now, from the beginning, and I've had to watch most of them on mute because I literally couldn't stand CONSTANTLY hearing "cat sammy" "nagi sammy" "yari sammy" and things like that, I'm not going to flame you and tell you to stop, I'm not even going to use all caps like most people who type negative comments do. Just telling you my opinion, it's mostly my OCD and please, don't think I hate you either, I don't.
rupture1212 2 months ago
hey, cool vid, but imo you entirely forgot to mention the unfair advantage dlc players have over vanilla players, i.e. nag monk cav is the only cav unit in the game that can upgrade anti cav stats, fire cav = great guard w/o retainer if upgraded correctly, the cheap nagi attendants are ridiculous (try prestiging as a vanilla player, it sux), and then the ridiculous dlc retainers, some of which you mentioned in the video and so on, would be cool if you could address this issue in your vids too
l2acc 4 months ago
Nagi spams are beatable, yes, but annoying in that the only counter to them is kiting, camping, or some combination of the two; and who wants to do that every other game?
MrBropocalypse 4 months ago
The beauty of warfare is about using strategy to suit your advantages. You either have a ranged, cavalry, or infantry advantage. As it is now, spear core infantry can overpower swords, thus making any advantage in the cavalry department almost negligible. So although the game seems to be more balanced now, it is in fact still very heavily imbalanced in the rock, paper, scissor area. I like the matchlock and LS nerfs, but I still detest this game as it is right now. For balance? SC2 is my choice.
yangleoo 4 months ago
@yangleoo yangleoo is laying down some wisdom up in here. I was gonna post some lengthy comments but looks like he's said pretty much everything I would.
fishsandwichpatrol 4 months ago
@yangleoo Medieval II (Though against AI its to easy no matter what 3 Peasant Archers can defeat 3 Templar Knights and 4 Dismounted English Knights mainly because the enemy is to stupid to move thinking I will attack head on)
Comanglia 4 months ago
Unfortunately what we see now are swords barely beating spears, which can easily be remedied with a few cavalry on the spear side....and not to mention warcries and the almost unbreakable morales of nagi monks just blows the proportions apart. There are still several things such as retainers that need fixing, but on a whole, I think they need to make the rock paper scissor situation more clear first.
yangleoo 4 months ago
I believe they attended for a rock, paper, scissor game with shogun 2. Although it may be true that spears weren't used enough pre-patch I believe they still should not be the bulk of an army like how it is now. A significant nerf may stop people from using nag monks as a core, but they are still viable as special role units. Spears should not be a core in an army without being heavily punished against swords...just as cavalry are currently heavily punished by spears.
yangleoo 4 months ago
@yangleoo I really don't think CA should be discouraging cores with their hotfixes. The aim of balance in this game should be to allow any core, as long is it is beatable against a balanced army. I agree that my "ideal" for nagi monks would be as a support unit, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see them as anything other than flank support in an opponent's comp. As long as they're viable, they're fine. A slight buff to swords would make nagi spam hilariously beatable.
MrBropocalypse 4 months ago
@MrBropocalypse I don't think they should be discouraging any cores either. I was using examples, and I did mention that spears (in this case nagi monks) should not be a core without being heavily punished by something else (in this case i used swords). Just as how sword cores have a heavy counter of cavalry. Even with swords decisively beating nagi monks, it does not remove them from being a core. You cannot have balance when 1 unit can withstand everything very well.
yangleoo 4 months ago
@yangleoo Pre-patch was a simple loan sword and matchlock over powered problem to be honest. Perhaps some other tweaks were neccessary too, but right now the balance mechanic has gone too. I had 2 types of armies pre-patch and before loan sword spams came into fashion. 1 was the typical sword core, the 2nd was a spear core with swords as support. I integrated between the two during refresh times. The point is, a balanced army should be able to beat any army with good strategy.
yangleoo 4 months ago
@yangleoo Oh and sorry for the several posts...can't fit everything in.
yangleoo 4 months ago
@yangleoo When I said nagi monks can still be used as a support role in other core armies, that is also just an example. You could still play a nagi core and easily beat an army that has a hard counter (in this case I suggested swords) so long as you use a balanced army and play to your advantages. With the entire rock paper scissor mechanic messed up by a simple "swords no longer dominate spears" or "scissors no longer cuts paper" the entire game's balance has been flushed out.
yangleoo 4 months ago
@yangleoo Okay, now I see. I misread your comment. I completely agree.
MrBropocalypse 4 months ago
I agree nagi monks should get restrictions. i would Like that you only can bring 2 nagi monks and only 1 monk cav to a battle. change the warcry to not be stackible.
they should not touch the stats on the units but change the retainers so they dont buff up nagi monks.
I would also like to see that bow fire on a nagi monk unit would affect its moral and start to waver after like 2-3 volleys as they are vurnible to bow fire why not add this to it aswell to make monks easier to get rid off
Lafladitu 4 months ago
@Lafladitu
Nagi samis are no problem a good kat sami core/ninja core same with matchlocks can easly take away nagi samis and quite fast aswell alost faster then a nagi monks would. I rather see nagi sami's on the battle field then 10 nagi monks in the same army.
And i like the new spear heavy cores as it more realistical if you look at the history.
Lafladitu 4 months ago
I think the reason that the devs do not hotfix every time there is an issue is because they want people to figure out ways to counter it by themselves. Eventually, if there really aren't any decent ways to counter it, they'll patch it.
simplethunder 4 months ago
I think they nerfed the katana samurai way too much, they were really a skilled group of men, and capping them at four, but then making the current sword retainers effect only ash, and the old ones effect samurais, that would rebalance the game, and needing spear retainers, too.
CoDWikiTMOI 4 months ago
I think that the patch is just what shogun needed, and I now love the game again as I did when I first got it. I never see matlocks or loan swords anymore :)
CoDWikiTMOI 4 months ago
I agree with you, the patch made the game golden. I see zero matchlocks now
frewd100 4 months ago
Don't forget slightly upgraded warrior monk cav. They take on my fully upgrade fire cav + great guard/yari cav and STILL win. mon cav fight to the death while my cav routes if they lose 2/3 of their men... i just don't understand.
the only thing I care about is the warrior monk/bow monks. nerf warrior monks morale/warcry and make bow monks more expensive because they still tear apart everything i throw at them.
thesilentone13 4 months ago
100 cost increase? 90 men? Get rid of warcry and cap monks to 2. Problem solved.
DJYC21215 4 months ago
@DJYC21215 well if warcry didnt stack and keept the cap you said id be better, warcry is ok just stacking is op
CrimsonWilder2226 4 months ago
Also price i spammed nagi samurai and beat a katana samurai spammer. Naginata sammies will beat katanas with the right upgrades.
DJYC21215 4 months ago
I said this in fishies video and i will say it again. Anyone who says monk spam is not OP, either doesnt play match made, hasnt fought a good player, or hasnt fought the professional spam. Anyone who has played match made, and claims its easy, send me your steam name and i will cheese like hell VS your balanced army and prove my point.
DJYC21215 4 months ago
i don't see a problem with the nag spam, it's annoying and i don't like it. but i've brought a sword core and beat these guys. it's as easy as having a strong bow contingent and a strong holding force to shoot up the nags while they're being held up. i personally like 3 katana samurai, 2 monks, 1 loansword of high level, 2 naginata or yari ash, 3-4 bow samurai and 3-4 yari cavalry. or variations of that.
kevinzawssum 4 months ago
@kevinzawssum You havent faced professional spam with 8 30 melee defence monks, 2 hold firms, 3 13 aumored samurai, and 2 monk cav.
DJYC21215 4 months ago
@DJYC21215 No, I haven't, but I say: come at me bro! lol it's time to teach these cheap players a lesson.
kevinzawssum 4 months ago
@kevinzawssum as DJYC said, some skilled players r using this armys, its not like they just send their whole force against ur spearwall, and wait for u to envelop and shoot up, some guys actually know what to do with their spamms, not all of them, its true, there is some hardcore noobs out there playing super spammers, but its still very annoying to face an orde of naggis runing like blind bats.
Kytolk 4 months ago
@Kytolk yes, very true, and i'm not saying i haven't lost to them. it is quite annoying. whatever your opinion, i respect it, i just find that a huge nagi spam does have it's problems.
kevinzawssum 4 months ago
as far as i know swords already have a hidden buff vs swords o_o it just isnt high enough. If im not mistaken its +5
TheCixelsyd 4 months ago
Nag monks are easy to beat the only thing that is unbalanced is the nag sam and retainers
beast107365 4 months ago
Nag monks are if anything underpowered there are easy as shit to beat it's the nag sam that are op
beast107365 4 months ago
i think combining the private forum idea with rapid hotfix patches would help the game the most... Each hotfix they could just focus on rebalancing one unit or one unit type, release the patch let the community play it for a couple weeks. then feedback can be carried back up to CA from the community through the private forum/private forum members... The only issue is how would the ~10 members of the private forum be decided upon?
klinerr1 4 months ago
I have beat nag monk core with yari ashigaru core :)
popipepe1 4 months ago
@popipepe1 thats because yari ash are currently the most powerful unit in the game as far as cost for melee dmg goes... if you use them right
TheCixelsyd 4 months ago
Well spoken!!, hopefully admiral you will bring about positive reform to the game in the future!
mo7217 4 months ago
Totally agree about the retainer system being the cause of the problems. Retainers simply have to be redone completely. Since I started playing the game I never could understand why swords had 3 retainers, yari/nagi 2, cavalry only one. And why there where 10 usefull retainers(more like 7 or 8) while the rest 30 where usefull to like1%of those 10.
When I look back to when the game launched and I was destroying people with a army with a core of 6-8 kata sams, I finally understand how bad that was
perafilozof 4 months ago
i dont think Nag sams are as OP as nag monks (with stacked retainers) - just debuff monks and the game will be ok except issues with these bloody ladders that ppl constantly try to manipulate. Swords were traditionally a support unit for the spears so i think they should be a little cheaper but the stats add up.
rattue498 4 months ago
@rattue498 true, some ppl complain about the ash armys, but its the way it was, maybe more yari sams, all others were elite and suporters. samurais were not all that common on Japan, for those who dont know ;) lets say they were as common as the rich ppl of today ;P
Kytolk 4 months ago
That might be too extreme, I think that being evening out the retainers and upgrades so they give same bonuses to either swords or spears would be enough.
andferpa 4 months ago
I dont think that they will weaken the Ikko Ikki retainers.. They want to motivate ppl like me to buy the Ikko Ikki DLC, so they have an easier time online.. But I refuse to do that.. Last time I played was way b4 the last patch because I was just so goddamn annoyed with all the overpowered retainers, loan swords spams and what not, i couldnt to myself.. Totally anti community move by CA there.. Forcing me to buy that shit..
Be3p123 4 months ago
for the love of god do not inc price on nag monks, maybe decrease melee attack by 1
deadpepwalking 4 months ago
limit nag monks to 2, and reinstate the +3 melee attack for all swords, bar loan swords, also +1 moral for all samurai units
deadpepwalking 4 months ago
Mhh, I just dont know what the hard counter for naginata is and matchlock are too dangerous for your own men.
But it is alot better than pre patch
mahakar11 4 months ago
agreed on monks and reatiners, i find the naggi samis well balanced with kat without retainers, so i think the main prob are the retainers. u guys should try a 1v1 kat vs nag monk vanilla no retainers, i bet they r almost equal. monk should win on war cry but lose on the armour. just my thinking. take care and keep the good work
Kytolk 4 months ago
are u kidding me,balanced game omg spears rule how game can be good?system is totally broken....Samurai is Monks bich even nuns are stronger then Katana if properly charged,cav lose their purpose spears defence upgrade give 3 points and sword 2.....game is crappy now they turned katanas into support unit.......
misiknuo 4 months ago
The shrine used to give attack and morale but it isn't until it's nerfed and more commonly used that you complain? smh
and it only makes sense a 900 unit beats a 750 unit
corpral13 4 months ago
I completely agree with you on this especially the nagitana spam(both monks and samis) spam nagi samis with monk cavs+ war cry will rout all your swords in no time
lookeed 4 months ago
I have to disagrre with nagi samis being not op.I had a 2v2 match recently and the enemy had lvl 5 nagi samis, my kat samis with 20 atk + stand and fight lost badly, still we pulled out a victory thanks to my bulletproof samis with only 33 men and a back attack^^ ( rapid advance FTW!!)
NoVaSHoOGun 4 months ago
what is kinda strange that in senguku jidai most of the armies was made out of ashigarus =/ and that spears was the normal weapon in battle lol oh well nothing they can do about it now =/
MiniUchiha 4 months ago
@MiniUchiha thats true also kat samis as a unit did not exist, they are present in the game only for the sake of a rock-paper-siccors mechanics.
NoVaSHoOGun 4 months ago
why not just cap the monks ?
NCudi 4 months ago
@NCudi they'd have to cap everything evntually and that'd suck overall.
YoshiandWarbz 4 months ago
Don't forget the 3 bow cav +5 or so mounted samurai (= bow cav light) + melee cav + matchlock cav. Those armies are UNSTOPPABLE unless you spam cav.
TheNighthawk00 4 months ago
SHOOOOOOOOOOOGGUUUNNNN 2!
joaocomilao 4 months ago
:O
Slanderbot 4 months ago