The Historic Arminian View of the Atonement with guest Eric Holmberg | RIGHTLY DIVIDED | Episode 3

[rach3argerich]

I started watching this video, expecting a representation of the "Historic Arminian" view and instead ended up listening to a representation of the "Wesleyan-Arminian" view. There is a HUGE difference. Wesleyan-Arminianism is to Historic Arminianism as Hyper-Calvinism is to Calvinism.

[RM77MKII]

Does anybody know what song is the intro?

[newbirth35]

Re: Other good reading material. My introduction (at least in print) to Calvinism is James White's "The Potter's Freedom." It showed me how it does make a complete, consistent argument, and answered many of my questions and objections.

[iRondalla]

@7:11 "the more I read the Bible the more I realise God is in charge". Amen. if only we read our Bibles and pray more often - and study it to see if it was so.

[TacticusPrime]

Man, Calvinism is nuts. Wow anyone who could claim with a straight face that a god who arbitrarily decides millenia ahead of time which of his creations will be saved and which will be damned is also a loving god, has no understanding of what love actually is. It's really sad.

[bigbadwolff1]

@TacticusPrime If God had not chosen some, none would come!

[TacticusPrime]

@bigbadwolff1 Really?  If an infinitely powerful deity directly revealed himself thru clearly supernatural phenomena, then no one would believe in him? That's bullshit.

[bigbadwolff1]

@TacticusPrime That is precisely why He was killed. Thats recorded history.

[TacticusPrime]

@bigbadwolff1 I meant today. Right now. If talking bushes a flambe and pillars of said fire wouldn't kill people or ruin their free choice BCE, then why would they now? I'll believe in a god when a giant pillar of flame rolls up and says, "Hey, I'm God. Don't believe me? BAM! Now you can fly."

[bigbadwolff1]

@TacticusPrime 1)Your presuming that (fallen) man, who the Bible teaches is a slave to his sin, has the want or ability to choose Him. The Israelitesn had the miracles you speak of and yet persisted in unbelief. Jesus said"It is a wicked and adulterous people who seeks after a sign" You have a problem with sin(u know it), you have offended a Holy God, He has made a way through repentance and trust by His grace to escape His wrath.

[TacticusPrime]

@bigbadwolff1 Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Nothing in the world around us requires the existence of some kind of father deity who rewards goodness and punishes wickedness. It's just a comfortable fable. If this so-called god wants my attention, then he can get it the same way he supposedly did those Bronze Age tribesmen 3000+ years ago. Isn't he the same yesterday, today, and forever?

[bigbadwolff1]

@TacticusPrime Yes He is the same Y, T, &F, but does that mean that He as a person is the same, or His Methods of Operations are? Whos "goodness" does this God supposedly reward?

[TacticusPrime]

@bigbadwolff1 That's what he does in the Bible over and over. "Because of your faithfulness yadda yadda yadda" "Because of your wickedness blah blah blah". That's the main plot of the Old Testament. But looking at the world around us, not the one filtered by these ancient writers, it's difficult to see how such a god could be acting.

He's certainly not doing miracles. He doesn't need to burn out eyes with his glory or whatever, but a pillar of fire or two is not too much to ask.

[TacticusPrime]

@bigbadwolff1 Heck, he could just heal and amputee or three. That would get my attention. Without that... he's just another daddy god that ignorant tribalists made up to make the world seem less scary. A supernatural conspiracy theory.

[bigbadwolff1]

@TacticusPrime 2) You would rather wrangle with what God your Creator has commanded (repent&trust, and lay down your own conditions "weeee I can fly" , Have GOD do parlor tricks for you??? The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation, not your own whims. On judgement day,u wont be able to say I didnt know because God done no tricks me. God has given you this chance TODAY to turn from your wicked self serving lifestyle and serve HIM. God loves u that much.

[TacticusPrime]

@bigbadwolff1 Look at the evidence. In double-blind study after study, prayer is determined to be no more successful than a placebo. It's just sad how desperately you people cling to this bankrupt philosophy.

[colobobolon]

please my people stop calling him jesus christ when his true name is Yashayah and our fathers true holy name is Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh please my people look up the true names and you will be blessed shalom my brothers

[GrantDTL]

Hey around 32 mins Eric seemed to say that the Millennial Reign started at Calvary if someone could take a few mins to respond on that I'd appreciate it thanks God Bless

[JGischala]

most calvinists are bad historians, they read reformed theology without questioning it and will read anything by anyone else so as to refute it before really listening to what the other side says- this has been my experience- if i question a calvinist or disagree with them on something, they tell me i'm misunderstanding their position, yet they can have whole treatises and video series on classical arminianism and it's atonement theology and be completely objective=whatever

[LaneCh]

Is there anything inaccurate in this video? If so, what?

[rocka700]

@LaneCh ..... yes I believe there is something wrong with this video! It is an attack on another Christian theology! Where is the peace? Why is Arminianism totally wrong and Calvinism totally right? Do we not have people such as John Wesley and Leonard Ravenhill who leaned more to Arminist than the other, and do you not believe these men where sold out to Jesus Christ? Why then spend so much time persecuting other Christian people in an attempt to justify Calvinism? That sir, is what is wrong!!

[Rhuanjl]

It's an attack on an unbiblical system of theology that if taken consistently denies the gospel, an arminian can only be christian by being incredibly inconsistent, and handling different parts of the BIble in very different and stange ways. (I'm not saying you're not christian, but you are inconsistent) Arminianism left unchecked leads to all sorts of problems, and heresies that deny the gospel, it is something that must be fought for this reason.

[jmhjmh5]

@rocka700 Sorry to respond to an old comment, but I must.

Pointing out the false theology in the church is "persecution". No offence, but that's gotta be the most amazing postmodern nonsense statement I have ever heard.

If we have any love for the Word of our Lord then we must confront bad theology just as we must confront sin.

And we must uphold and cherish the freedom to speak and debate openly on these key issues of theology. Calling such activity persecution is just plain wrong.

[rocka700]

@LaneCh ..... And again I do not take the name Arminian but I do lean more to that theology as did the greats John Wesley and Leonard Ravenhill..

As we both like Paul Washer and agree with his doctrine..was it not Paul Washer that said.."I would take Leonard Ravenhill over 20 dead Calvinist"..And again did not Paul Washer say..."Calvinism is not the issue" ..So why spend so much time, making it the issue??? Teach Jesus my friend..Teach Jesus..This video does not bring glory to God in any way!

[LaneCh]

Just to point out, I asked if there was anything inaccurate with this video, and you responded with things that you didn't like about this video ie. not the answer to the question I asked. If you can answer my question, please feel free to do so. Otherwise, there are plenty of mall polling agencies that would be more than happy to hear about your personal tastes and opinions.

[JohnoPete]

@rocka700 I'm sorry, does discussing the glory of Christ's atoning work and the beauty of God's sovereign choice not bring Him glory? If they are incorrect then enlighten them to the glory of God. But if what they say is true, how could describing God fail to bring Him Glory? I understand this is a difficult issue. I am a former Arminian (though I did not take the name either, nor did I understand it) and would have thought similarly to you in the past. But again, is truth their motive?

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 in conclusion Eph 1:4-5

"even as he i chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl .... predestined only because of His foreknowledge of what we will do. The bible is filled with the evidence that man has the free will to choose God or not. And if we so choose to follow God's call it is then, only by His grace and mercy that He saves us. Not because of our being a good person.

[rocka700]

I do not know why some people put so much effort into proving calvanism over arminianism and the opposite? For calvanist to say that calvanism is the complete truth of the Gods' Word and meaning is a cultic method! Same applies to arminianism! It is a simple immpossibility for any, one, belief system or denomination to have all the answers to the Gospel, and for one to say they do, is without a doubt untrue; it is not arminianism vs calvanism! It is Arminianism and Calvanism vs Christianity...!

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 No. Calvinism is simply a name given to some stuff that the Bible teaches, possibly an un-helpful name, but calvinism is not some additional thing it is stuff that is taught by the bible.

[rocka700]

yes, I understand that calvanist hold to the fact that what they teach, is completely out of the bible itself, but arminianism holds to that same fact??? The truth I am trying to get at, is that calvanism and arminianism are both wrong because Christ' True Church is called Christianity! Because Jesus Christ died for the sins of man; not John Calvin! Calvanism is not as important as so many people make it out to be! I mean; who is John Calvin? Some righteous "MAN" above all the rest of us?? No!!!

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 Would you mkae the same complaint against trinitarianism? (believing in the trinity) protestantism? (opposing the Roman church) For two simple examples.

Calvinism does not say that Calvin died for us, nor does it say anything especially good about calvin. Arminianism is criticised because if pushed to consistency it would tell you that Jesus' death on the cross doesn't save people.

Calvinism pushed to consistency does teach that Jesus' death on the cross saves people.

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl ..... I will not comment again about this subject, I do not spend my time trying to justify calvinism or arminianism or triniatism, or any of the other sects man has puffed up because of our wicked hearts and proud minds! However, I would tell you this thing; Spend more of your time quoting Jesus Christ than John Calvin or any other man prophet in whom you idolize! If in fact you are one of the die hard calvinist out there. God Bless you in your quest to find the truth!

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 If I am endevouring to correct someone's theology I would quote Jesus Christ. You clearly don'\t know what you're talking about as calvinism is not a sect, nor is trinitarianism or arminianism... e.g. Trinitarianism = believing that there is one God who exists as three co-equal co-eternal persons, father, son and holy spirit, that's simple biblical fact...

Are you perhaps a follower of monica deningtonism? Which is a heretical group....

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl ... I have subscribed to tic toc ministries, even though she has some teachings I do not agree on at all! Like her teaching of the Holy Spirit being a woman! But she does have a lot of correct teachings. I do not subcribe to her because I believe in all she believes, just as I have subscribed to Lane Channel even though I do not agree in all what he believes! He simply has more teachings of truth than error. and I do believe in the trinity 100%. I believe in the bible 100%.

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700: Calvinism is a similar label to trinitarianism, it just means believing what the bible says about predestionation and atonement, just like trinitarianism means beliving what the Bible says about the nature of God as trinity.

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl ... I have not even said anything about calvinism again, and yet you continue to try and justify it? Why is this? If you believe calvinism is the way to go, then go! I on the other hand do not! I have read to many scriptures that testify against calvinism's predestination and eternal sercurity. The reason Calvinism is so dangerous is because of statements by Calvinist like this one, '"The world should realize with increased clearness that Evangelicalism stands or falls with Calvinism."'

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 That's becuase it effectively does, as one veers away from orthodoxy, and becomes inconsistent (arminian) and bases salvation not entirely on God's grace but on God's grace and... One is heading in a very dangerous direction. We never stopped tlaking about calvinism, we only diverted to look at how the use of an extra-biblical word doesn't make something bad. The bible clearly teaches predestination in John 6 and Romans 8-9 for instance, also Ephesians 1 and...

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl ... John chapter 6 does not teach predestination! Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him" and goes on to explain Himself, when He said, "And they shall all be taught by God" Jesus is saying, on our own, we cannot and will not seek after God and what is right. In fact I read many things in John chapter 6 which testify against predestination and the "elect" of God... We see a constant use of words such as, everyone, anyone, the world, and whoever will believe..con.

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 Your refferrence to Romans 8 and "those whom he foreknew he also predestined saying that this emans it's about God having looked down th corridors of time, (classic arminian bad reading of the text...) the greek word translated foreknow does not mean to know in advance it means to ordain or to choose.

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl...continued... The scriptures even give way in that, predestination of the world is not in the sense that God has "elect" persons to be saved from the beginning, but that because of the foreknowledge of God, He already knows who out of everyone born into this world, will believe in Him and be saved. Therefore the "elect" of God is nothing more than God's foreknowledge of our salvation. John 6:64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they..

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 continued... The greek word translated "draws" above is not a word tha talks about a suggestive drawing it is a definate drawing it is used in other greek texts of taking someone to court or of getting water out of a well, in both cases I don't think the person or object to which this "drawing" is being done has any choice in the matter.

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl...continued...who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. Dont you see this? Or are you so caught up in the beliefs and teachings of calvinism, you will disregard scripture even when shown wrong? Ezekiel 18:21 "if a wicked man turns from his sins and does what is right, he shall surely live. Ezekiel 18:24 "when a righteous man turns from righteousness and does according to all the things of the wicked, he is guilty, because of them he shall die...

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 I do already know the teachings of Arminianism, you didn't need to explain them, let us look however at whatt he text actually says. Indeed it does say in Ezekiel that if a man turns from his sins he will live, I would not dispute that, the question is who will turn from their sins. "All that a the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl ...continued...And even more clearly we see in Romans 5:18 "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to 'ALL' men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the "free gift" came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life" Do you not see this scripture clearly proves calvin predestination as being in error? How can I believe in pre-d after reading this text? If you want to have some kind of excuse to rebuke these scriptures,go ahead,but I wont.

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 What you are arguing for with that is not arminianism now, but universalism for if the free gift of justification has come to all men then all men will go to heaven, are you a universalist?

If not, perhaps you need to go carefully through Romans 5 and see what it ctually means.

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl .... I am not arguing, I am discussing bible principles.

haha, now im a universalist! People need to get rid of all the "isms" in the world, and pay more attention to the bible.

I am a Christian! nothing else! A Christian! Do you get that? Or do you want me to tell you again? lol

Sir, it does not mean that all men go to heaven! If I give you and your entire family each a "free gift" then you all have the choice to recieve it or not! Choose to take it, Choose to throw it away!

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 universalism is the heresy you were seemingly teaching with your eisogesis of Romans 5. Of course it's not what you want to teach, you want to teach Arminianism, but you can't do that from any text of scripture for it's not there, you give bits of biblical truth and bits of universalism and other weird things and try and bolt them all together to make your Arminianism. Meanwhile accusing those who are consistent of being cults or something.

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl ... Sir I am teaching Christianity!

Arminianism is wrong in some of its doctrine and Calvinism is wrong in some of its doctrine. Simple as that!

For Calvinist to teach that they have all the correct answers to the bible; is the only reason I say it takes the form of a cult! And Arminianism as well!

Because what other religion or idea or sect or whatever you want to call Calvinism, say that they have all the truth: Other than, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, ect.

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl ... boy, it must be nice to be a calvinist huh? Sit back and enjoy life with no worries; because you are one of God's "Elect" special people? That must be the life huh? Never be able to lose your salvation, no matter how many wicked and perverse things you practice through the day? Just kick back and recieive heaven while you say to the lost people damned for hell by God Himself, ""well, it sucks to be you!" ""I would pray for you, but God is sending you to hell anyway!" Your wrong!!!

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 The reformed faith has a simple formal principle, pray, and hten trusting God study the Bible as hard as you can and follow the conclusions you find. Ons passasge in said Bible is "examine yourselves test yourselves in light of scripture or do you not recognise this about yourself that Jesus Christ is in you unless indeed you fail the test" another is "I suffer all things for the sake of the elect that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory"

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl ..... I am not saying Calvinism is as wrong as Mormons and the rest! Because Calvinism in my view along with Arminianism are both correct doctrines by some degree. But none have the whole truth as they claim. While mormons completely stray from the truth, Calvinist and Arminians only are in minor error of the truth! And once again, I am a Christian! I do nto favor either side of Calvinism or Arminianism or any other wierd thing in between!!!

[Rhuanjl]

@rocka700 As you have said to me I will say to you that I do not doubt your faith, but I don't think you understand this issue. In this conversation you have affirmed the primary points of arminianism, to then deny that you arminian makes little sense. The good calvinist does not claim to understand he Bible perfectly by any means. If you rely on "we can't know for sure" on something which the BIble speaks clearly, then how long till "we can't know for sure that salvation is by faith"?

[rocka700]

@Rhuanjl ..... I do not understand the issue, but I do understand the bible. I have affirmed some points of Armininianism as I have also affirmed some points of Calvinism, because I agree with the docrine of total depravity and I also agree that there is no other way to obtain salvation by any thing other than faith in Jesus Christ with the fruits of repentance and regeneration being the proof of that salvation. However I do not agree with total predestination or total salvation security...

[brent696139]

lane, love ya brother!! u are always a blessing to everyone.. thanks for the hard work and ministry.. say hi to susan for me

[InfinityXMaster]

whats the name of the song at the begginig?

[treismac]

Would someone please answer a question I have regarding Total Depravity as it relates to the work of the Devil. It seems unnecessary for Satan to blind the minds of unbelievers (2 Cor 4:4 "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers...") if men are born incapable of believing anyway. The same applies to the Devil snatching the word of God from the hearts of unbelievers (Lk 8:12). With John 6:44 necessitating the Father's drawing to come to Christ, why does the Devil bother? Thanks!

[Jimbo3783]

@LaneCh: Hey, where do you go to school?

[LaneCh]

Trinity Law School

[Paul1T2Day]

Thanks so much for this episode! It was very well done! I wanted to share this with you as a possible future episode of your show. It seems now that since Calvinism is on the upswing again, there is a reoccurance of old feuds between Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists over the difference in wording and beliefs in their confessions, even to the point where some deride viciously the other's beliefs. Maybe there could be a show about their confessions and the best way to coexist with each other.

[zmode82]

That would be a good idea. Personally, as a Presbyterian myself, I don't really have a problem with Baptists, just as long as they're reformed thats all that matters to me.

[Paul1T2Day]

I do not have problems with Presbyterians despite my differences with them as long as they are Reformed as well. But there is a group who claims that Reformed Baptists are not Reformed or Calvinists because we don't use the same verbage when we talk about assurance of salvation. In essence they equivocate on the term "assurance" and claim we teach a gospel of works, which we do not. They are really turning Calvinism into another malicious sect. It's quite disturbing.

[zmode82]

Agreed, those groups that say reformed baptists arent reformed, it is quite evident they have little or no idea what the Baptist teach on these issues. I think they would if they took the time to do some research. In fact, my library is made up mostly of reformed baptist material more than anything of my other literature, but it would be interesting to see an episode on Rightly Divided to discuss these issues.

[charliejunfan1]

No, that's not why, it is because historically Reformed was associated with it's particular view of the sacraments, I kinda think the whole fuss over it is silly though...

[LaneCh]

Great idea, zmode.

[apologeticsman]

if I believed God was the god Calvinists advocate, I would toss my Bible on a pile of leaves and let it rot. I would then go out, find a woman to enjoy, and live life to the fullest. This would not be because I hated God, but because I would see no point in serving a god who delights in sending people to eternal hell, with no hope of escape.

[LaneCh]

@apologeticsman: If you did that, it would prove that you're unregenerate along with proving that you're not a Calvinist. Christians don't use grace as a license to sin.

[strech7951]

Merry Christmas Lane. another good one. looking forward to more

[DefendingTheTruth]

Is "Rightly Divided" available in podcast? I would love to be able to listen away from my computer.

God bless you Lane!

[HamtramckGrace]

This edition lost me at the point where he insists that Arminians are Christians, and at the same time stressing how small the god of Arminianism is! With all due respect, one cannot have it both ways! This assertion, along with "God loves everybody in some sense" never made biblical sense to me at all from a exegetical point of view. If you call yourself a Christian, you believe that Jesus saved His people PERFECTLY. Period! There is no way that Arminians can say that at all!

[GPLeague]

So when Eric Holmberg claimed he was saved before he came to understand and accept Reformed soteriology, was he simply mistaken? I didn't become a Calvinist until after I was regenerated. Same w/ R.C. Sproul. Are we all mistaken?

[HamtramckGrace]

Think about what you are saying. What is regeneration? That Eric was SAVED I will agree! We were saved (justified) at the cross 2000 years ago but we need to experience our salvation in time (regeneration). I was saved before I was born but I was not regenerate until the Holy Spirit Indwelt me by grace causing me to believe the Gospel of my salvation.  What is that Gospel? That Jesus died for me as well as the one in Hell? the Spirit does not teach such nonsense!

[HamtramckGrace]

The Holy Spirit of God teaches one thing and one thing only; that Jesus Christ has saved His people perfectly and monergistically, without fail, and without anyone's permission or exercise of "free will" I was unregenerate before I believed these things, plain and simple! Arminians are not regenerate nor are they taught of the Spirit of God because what they believe is a FALSE GOSPEL mixed with some truth, not the other way around! It is dangerous for Grace folks to promote such things!

[GPLeague]

"Arminians are not regenerate...they believe is a FALSE GOSPEL"

I know of a few people that disagree with you (i.e., the consensus of Calvinists, living and dead). Sproul, James White, Mike Horton, Spurgeon, etc. "But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views." Spurgeon said that in his famous "Defense of Calvinism" sermon. But he was a dangerous compromiser, right?

[apologeticsman]

actually, if one goes by the strictness of Calvinism, it wouldn't matter what a person professed as a belief, since it is God who saves, and we supposedly have no say so in the matter. If God wanted to save a Satanist, that Satanist would be saved, and if He wanted to send a sweet moral person who is selfless and would want to love God to hell, He would do that, and we would have no right to question it. I am glad the Bible teaches differently. If anything, Calvinists are the false teachers

[LaneCh]

@apologeticsman The sick need a physician; not well people. If God saves a Satanist, that means he's no longer a Satanist. If God doesn't save a "selfless" person, well, actually first provide me with the name of someone who is actually perfectly selfless and doesn't deserve to go to hell because they've never sinned.

[apologeticsman]

@LaneCh all have sinned, and God commands all men everywhere to repent. Therefore, God wants all men to be saved.

[LaneCh]

@apologeticsman Actually, the Biblical term that is used in 2Peter 3:9 is "willing", but if God is willing, do you hold that man's will is stronger than God's? People are going to hell and those people have one will while God has another so do you hold that man's will is stronger than God? You'd have to. In your theology, the strongest being inside and outside of creation is the sinner because his will ultimately trumps God's

[GPLeague]

If Calvinists taught what you think they taught, they would indeed be false teachers. But they don't. God not only ordains the ends, but also the means to the ends. Hence, no one is saved "whether or not they believe" since faith itself is a gift that God grants to those he has given to the Son before the foundation of the world.

[apologeticsman]

@GPLeague thanks for bringing that issue up. There are 2 faiths mentioned in the Bible; one is a gift that is given to people who are already saved, and the other is saving faith that is a personal choice. The Greek dictionary defines saving faith as "an intense conviction that something is true" thus in order for God to impart that kind of faith to a person, He would then be forcing them to believe. A person who is forced or programmed to believe is not truly worshiping, & that lessens God

[GPLeague]

"He would then be forcing them to believe."

"And the Lord opened her [Lydias] heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." God gives us the moral ability (not natural ability, which we never lose) to freely embrace his Son by taking out our stony hearts and giving us a heart of flesh. Was God "forcing" Lydia to believe by opening her heart so that she could respond? Nope.

[GPLeague]

"saving faith that is a personal choice" So saving faith is not a gift, but a personal choice? Why not both! "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--" Saving faith according to Paul is a gift. But not according to you. I see a conflict here.

[GPLeague]

As for your 2nd point, all who want to be saved will be saved. Jesus said "All that the Father gives to me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out." Hence, Jesus wont say "sorry, you're not on the list" if you come. Yet God has still given him a people, all of which will come to him. Do you believe that?

[apologeticsman]

@GPLeague that is typical circular reasoning one expects from Calvinists. So, you are saying that God is justified in saving only those He desires to save, because only those that He desires to save will want to be saved?? Do you not see the utter fallacy in this argument? Why would God only allow some to want to be saved? It doesn't make any sense, but since the Calvinist god doesn't have to make sense, it makes perfect sense.. right?

[GPLeague]

"So, you are saying...only those that He desires to save will want to be saved??"

Nope. I am saying that no one desires to be saved until he regenerates them, and he only regenerates some (the elect). Desiring God is not natural to fallen man, nor is it possible unless God changes the inclination of our hearts. You're the one saying unregenerate people desire God. Why only some unregenerate then? If all get God's grace equally, then grace doesn't make he difference. It's something we do.

[GPLeague]

"Why would God only allow some to want to be saved?"

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." In short, because he doesn't want to. If you don't like that, then rebuke God, not me. According to you, God wants to have mercy on all, but can't because salvation ultimately depends on man's choice, not God's. I say, along w/ Paul "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

[apologeticsman]

Son of man, say to the house of Israel, 'This is what you are saying: "Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live?" ' Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' Ezekiel 33:10-11

[GPLeague]

Yes, I like that verse too. I use it against Hyper-Calvinists and frequently quote it when discussing Calvinism with Arminians. Read R.C. Sproul's "What is Reformed Theology"; he explains that verse well in his discussions on the will of God. Also, read Phil Johnson's essay "A Primer on Hyper-Calvinism." You'll see that verse quoted at the beginning of the essay.

[apologeticsman]

To me, the only real difference between a hyper Calvinist and a "standard" Calvinist, at least aside from the fringe groups like the Westboros, etc, is that hypers are far more honest and direct with their approach to the theology than the other Calvinists. The end result is the same, no matter how you approach it. You have God sending people to hell, with no choice in the matter, while sending others to heaven, and not offering them any choice or hope of ever making a different decision.

[GPLeague]

"To me, the only real difference...is that hypers are far more honest and direct with their approach to the theology than the other Calvinists."

Then you don't know either very well. Read Phil Johnson's Primer on Hyper-Calvinism. I go to a Reformed Baptist Church. Here is my pastor: /watch?v=UWROkQ1EccQ

He spent last Sunday open air preaching at WalMart. He is as evangelistic as they come. There is a BIG difference between mainstream and hyper or, as Sproul calls it, "sub/anti-Calvinism."

[themalina92]

@apologeticsman

The fact remains that only God truly knows who the elect actually are. We are not to presume to know. As a Biblicalist, I would definitely tend to agree with the Calvinists' perspective in that Salvation is of the Lord, and not of man. God truly deserves all the Glory and mankind needs to be put in its place.

[apologeticsman]

Yes, God knows the end of all things, but the simple fact that He knows the end, does not necessitate that He CAUSED all of the events in the end. Believers in free will or as I now term it, "free choice" are so often accused of limiting God or reducing His sovereignty, but I think it is those on the Calvinist side of the argument that limit God by not allowing Him to be merciful and loving to the entire world of man. Salvation is of God, but it depends on our decision to accept it

[timkblog]

Who did the them for the show ?

[apologeticsman]

@GPLeague "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:30-31

[GPLeague]

So Mr. Holmberg, Sproul, and myself were saved but not regenerated until we became Calvinists? NOT when we believed the good news of Christ because, of course, until we accepted monergistic regeneration, we believed a false gospel, right?

[HamtramckGrace]

This has nothing to do with Calvinism and everything to do with the Gospel! Either the Gospel you believe is true or it is false! People believed the gospel before John Calvin came along. The remonstrance came along and attempted to destroy the Gospel but failed. All the names you mentioned are irrelevant as they are the testimony of men, not the Sure Word of God. All I am attempting to show you is that there is only ONE Gospel, not two equally valid gospels. This should not be hard at all

[GPLeague]

"Either the Gospel you believe is true or it is false!" Arminians believe that they are saved by grace alone. My Dad is saved. I was saved by his example and his teaching. He probably couldn't tell you what unconditional election is, but he KNOWS he is not saved by any of his own merit, but solely by Christ's imputed righteousness. My point it, Arminians believe the true gospel, just inconsistently. God saves them despite this inconsistency precisely because salvation is by grace alone!

[LifeIsSoAwesome]

Thanks for this!

[smartwarlord]

thanks Lane.

[S1nApS3]

Thanks Lane and Eric :)

youtube/ what?? after 39 min 50

[LaneCh]

youtube(.)com/vorthosforum