It is very clear that Paul Simon stole this beautiful arrangement of SF from Martin Carthy. All the elements of Carthy's beautiful guitar accompaniment are incorporated into the S&G arrangement, notably the way it builds up through the song. Carthy manages to do this with only his own playing, while Simon used backup musicians, and Garfunkel's beautiful backup harmony. Hopefully Simon at least was responsible for AG's backup harmonies(; if not, then he contributed very little to the song.
@TheMightyHartley I am struggling with the idea of music as theft. Composers from the past took ideas, styles and inspiration from those who went before. Give me a name and I'll show you a forger of coins, at least in part. The good ones bring something more. Paul Simon's tragedy is he brought nothing more. His version is a clunky simplification of Carthy's version, a version taken and reworked by Carthy himself, as he would readily admit.
you are right in every particular, and let's not forget that the Dylan also poached from Martin Carthy. However, neither Paul Simon, nor Dylan, have Carthy's style. They copied, but could not get the sweet rolling poetry and rhythm of Carthy's version. I would rather listen to M Carthy's versions anyday.
I just read through these and I thought it important to break this down a bit. Anyone putting out a record has the right to use songs that are "Public Domain" like an old folk song but one has to ask permission and pay royalties for using someone else's arrangement. If you listen closely to PS's guitar arrangement you will hear he is coping Carthy's guitar part very closely. It is a very singular style .This is the point here and Martin is a gentleman for how he responded to all this ..
im jewish and simon is a cheat.! forever matin carthy david swabrick full house angels delight. cruel sister , solmons seal. basket of light sandy denny. folk unites mankind. - as for paul simon he unites no one.....
You might listen to Pentangle's 'The Trees they do grow high'
. . . and see a kinship? I believe Martin Carthy would be the first to say classic words can be set to established tunes and classic tunes can be matched to established words. That is how it has always been: mix 'n' match. Tell the tale in your own way and add a great guitar ostinato. Martin Carthy added the definitive ostinato and those that came after (and they are legion) caught the ball and ran with it.
@MsJaggi24 i agree its martain carthy's song, but i hate teh anti sematism, (alos any form or racism) martin and paul simon performed the song together in the late 90's as a peace offering
No one should knock those who bring good stuff to the wider audience. PS has done it, so has Bob D, so did Haydn and Georg Freidrich H, so did the Stones, the list is long. The crime is to forget the originals, and Martin Carthy is certainly an original who made a huge impression on those sixties guys.
Good on you Martin, as you charm your audiences in folk clubs across Britain: a true balladeer and re-writer of songs.
Not the first time . Who played on Paul Simons "gracelands" album? Non other than the group who were to become the mavericks, and one of the group has been saying that PS got them to write the music then, all of a sudden "gracelands", he nicked their music. I can believe it, he certainly stabbed Art in the back!! I can't listen to his music after this!! He is a slimeball, but a rich slime ball!!
When I first heard Carthy's rendition of this song - in about 1965 - I was sent into orbit. I thought it was so very beautiful. It still sounds wonderful.
Top marks for Martin for bringing this song to prominence. Paul added his lovely canticle to make the song relevant to the Vietnam generation and bang the song goes global. The problem was to do with credits (see quote below). Like Rick Wakeman getting a few pounds for his fabulous piano arrangement for Morning Has Broken (an old hymn) and no credits by Cat/Yusuf
"What I had felt was, I think, more to do with injured pride than actually being cheated by the man. It has become apparent over the years that any such cheating was done by others in the course of or in the aftermath of lawsuits."
Thanks! Nice to hear it without Canticle mashed in. For a very interesting explanation of meaning, including significance of the herbs, add the usual beginning part to following address and skip down past the first set of lyrics. ygraine.membrane.com/enterhtml/free/FoodForThought/lyrics/herb/Z02_Scarborough_Fair.html
This precedes Simon and Garfunkel's version. Paul Simon was not at his best in how he dealt with Martin. So, Martin's earlier version must be heard!!!
i just got a copyright on "parsley, sage, rosemary, & thyme", alternately known as "herbes de provence." please stop cooking with this combination of herbs without paying me royalties, or I will have Paul Simon's lawyers tear you a new one.
Been trying to track this version down for ages. The more I listen to it the more it gets into my head. Always loved S&G's version of it, but now theirs just sounds cluttered (especially with all that bullshit about fighting wars etc). This version sounds like it's been sung by it's author- beautiful.
my god, what is it with you people...it doesnt matter how influenced P.S was, his version became THEE signified version for a reason. It might have been influenced, but so what, evey1 has influence..it is called the circle of influence...bottom line, S&G version was much different with arrangement, with chords, with production and with the written canticle. No one but S&G deserves credit for it but themselves. This guys version is certainly tasteful but compared to S&G its fucking boring.
@codern I agree S&G version is the more interesting version to me. I'm not saying MC version is bad - just that it is pretty bland. I also have to agree that like maybe 1% of the people that know the song know the version that MC sang, S&G version is what people know. I would also have to say - since it is an old song - nobody can 'steal'. The fact that the S&G version became much, much more popular and the MC version had few people that heard it kind of speaks volumes. It must grate on MC.
I have no idea how Paul Simon was able to copyright a song which has existed for centuries. Then again, Jimmy Page stole from Otis Rush, Willie Dixon, Anne Bredon, Bert Jansch and Davy Graham (the latter two he stole arrangements note for note and then renamed the traditional songs). Both Paul Simon and LedZep paid out cash for their indiscretions (reputedly, Willie Dixon got 15 million).
Lots of people do this, and it's hard to figure out how it happens. I guess because they're copyrighting a "slightly changed" version of the original. Peter Paul and Mary did tons of classic folk songs and copyrighted them. Maybe everybody steals from everybody and that's just the way it is. Martin Carthy's version here is so beautiful; it just transports me to another time and another world. Thanks for posting.
In the original sleeve notes MC states that this is a Supernatural tale - a series of imposable tasks designed as a Magical protection against the Malevolent Spirit they are assigned to.
The 'true love of mine' is the woman he seeks to possess.
This folk song just blew my mind when I first heard Martin Carthy sing it in about 1964. It still sounds so very, very beautiful. Greeting to you, Martin, and indeed every one ... from Colin Hugh Abbott in wonderful Western Australia. Oh, how lovely ...
Paul Simon wasn't "influenced" as such. Tom Paxton received a dinner invite from Martin Carthy and Simon tagged along. Carthy's arrangement of SF was his biggest song at the time and Simon asked if he would write it down for him, which Carthy naiively did. The next day, Simon copyrighted the song as his own.
I just heard an interview by P.S. about this song. P.S. mentions Carthy as the person who's recording of this song influenced him. He also maintains that it was like an old Folk song that had been around for years; he simply did his version, but DOES mention Martin Carthy as the person who inspired him to do the version that he and A.G. did. Individuals can not copyright such an existing song no more than they can copyright Jingle Bells ,Silent Night or Amazing Grace
@VisionsOfBanana This is also wrong. The song is a Traditional English ballad, Carthy found it in a song book. He was only mad because the copyright didn't mention the traditional song.
@bramstokerful -influenced is putting it mildly, he played it to him and wrote down the lyrics for him. Paul Simon promptly went back and copywrited it.
Great song. however the tabs in video do not correspond to what he is playing. (or I have some different tune of my guitar).
I got interested in English folk songs due to this record of Martin Carthey. Seems to me that this version is much more "folk" as I imagine what folklore is like. Now I got interested in English folk due to this record. Is there any other songs you can recommend me to listen to?
It is very clear that Paul Simon stole this beautiful arrangement of SF from Martin Carthy. All the elements of Carthy's beautiful guitar accompaniment are incorporated into the S&G arrangement, notably the way it builds up through the song. Carthy manages to do this with only his own playing, while Simon used backup musicians, and Garfunkel's beautiful backup harmony. Hopefully Simon at least was responsible for AG's backup harmonies(; if not, then he contributed very little to the song.
sgcim 1 week ago
@TheMightyHartley I am struggling with the idea of music as theft. Composers from the past took ideas, styles and inspiration from those who went before. Give me a name and I'll show you a forger of coins, at least in part. The good ones bring something more. Paul Simon's tragedy is he brought nothing more. His version is a clunky simplification of Carthy's version, a version taken and reworked by Carthy himself, as he would readily admit.
cuculus50 1 week ago
@ guywolff
you are right in every particular, and let's not forget that the Dylan also poached from Martin Carthy. However, neither Paul Simon, nor Dylan, have Carthy's style. They copied, but could not get the sweet rolling poetry and rhythm of Carthy's version. I would rather listen to M Carthy's versions anyday.
cuculus50 3 weeks ago
I just read through these and I thought it important to break this down a bit. Anyone putting out a record has the right to use songs that are "Public Domain" like an old folk song but one has to ask permission and pay royalties for using someone else's arrangement. If you listen closely to PS's guitar arrangement you will hear he is coping Carthy's guitar part very closely. It is a very singular style .This is the point here and Martin is a gentleman for how he responded to all this ..
guywolff 1 month ago
love moat on the ledge. have it on vinyl. play it on my PL2 some times.
woodworm. fairports defintive label. and independent too.
cuseofmuncubis 2 months ago
im jewish and simon is a cheat.! forever matin carthy david swabrick full house angels delight. cruel sister , solmons seal. basket of light sandy denny. folk unites mankind. - as for paul simon he unites no one.....
cuseofmuncubis 2 months ago
... and when the dust has settled, I still prefer this :)
cuculus50 2 months ago
You might listen to Pentangle's 'The Trees they do grow high'
. . . and see a kinship? I believe Martin Carthy would be the first to say classic words can be set to established tunes and classic tunes can be matched to established words. That is how it has always been: mix 'n' match. Tell the tale in your own way and add a great guitar ostinato. Martin Carthy added the definitive ostinato and those that came after (and they are legion) caught the ball and ran with it.
cuculus50 2 months ago
I return to this song often. At the close of the day it is balm to the soul.
cuculus50 3 months ago
@MsJaggi24 i agree its martain carthy's song, but i hate teh anti sematism, (alos any form or racism) martin and paul simon performed the song together in the late 90's as a peace offering
rictorn 3 months ago
Paul Simon copied Martins brilliant arrangement, not the song.
If Paul Simon had stolen the song itself, he would have to be centuries old; a blood sucking Vampyre!
Anyways, it's all a moot point now as these two tremendous artists have since buried the hatchet.
neohip 4 months ago
No one should knock those who bring good stuff to the wider audience. PS has done it, so has Bob D, so did Haydn and Georg Freidrich H, so did the Stones, the list is long. The crime is to forget the originals, and Martin Carthy is certainly an original who made a huge impression on those sixties guys.
Good on you Martin, as you charm your audiences in folk clubs across Britain: a true balladeer and re-writer of songs.
cuculus50 4 months ago
@cuculus50 Anyone bringing stuff to a wider audience through blatant theft is worthy of knocking,
TheMightyHartley 1 week ago
Not the first time . Who played on Paul Simons "gracelands" album? Non other than the group who were to become the mavericks, and one of the group has been saying that PS got them to write the music then, all of a sudden "gracelands", he nicked their music. I can believe it, he certainly stabbed Art in the back!! I can't listen to his music after this!! He is a slimeball, but a rich slime ball!!
eltonjazz 4 months ago
should one know nothing about tone, sound, rhythm etc better keep one's trap shut
Borniquels 4 months ago
The singing in this seems too rushed and off melody in some parts.
imjowsef 5 months ago
When I first heard Carthy's rendition of this song - in about 1965 - I was sent into orbit. I thought it was so very beautiful. It still sounds wonderful.
Jarrahnut 5 months ago
Much better than the Simon version.
dianambrown 6 months ago
Top marks for Martin for bringing this song to prominence. Paul added his lovely canticle to make the song relevant to the Vietnam generation and bang the song goes global. The problem was to do with credits (see quote below). Like Rick Wakeman getting a few pounds for his fabulous piano arrangement for Morning Has Broken (an old hymn) and no credits by Cat/Yusuf
SuperNevile 7 months ago
"What I had felt was, I think, more to do with injured pride than actually being cheated by the man. It has become apparent over the years that any such cheating was done by others in the course of or in the aftermath of lawsuits."
Martin Carthy
coy0te9 8 months ago
@coy0te9 - "Rob you with a fountain pen ..." folly it is to invest pride of ownership in the telling of a tale
larooby 4 months ago
Paul Simon had no right to try to copyright it in the UK, it was an old folk tune, which by law can't be coprighted.
TheFwible 8 months ago
Sexed-up and beautifully recorded by S&G. . . . . and very profitably so.
TerrySleeper 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Ok. This song was ripped from the british meadows and was eventually used in an all jew graduate-f*ck mom-do daughter hollywood movie.
Well done.
mertimos 9 months ago 8
a bit lowlevel as for martin carthy
Myrna4Loy 9 months ago
Thanks! Nice to hear it without Canticle mashed in. For a very interesting explanation of meaning, including significance of the herbs, add the usual beginning part to following address and skip down past the first set of lyrics. ygraine.membrane.com/enterhtml/free/FoodForThought/lyrics/herb/Z02_Scarborough_Fair.html
TheRealFearlessFreep 9 months ago
I like very much the way he puts his voice. Splendid.
ACVB2006 9 months ago
This precedes Simon and Garfunkel's version. Paul Simon was not at his best in how he dealt with Martin. So, Martin's earlier version must be heard!!!
Broblem12 9 months ago
Paul Simon changed the song to SF (Canticle), thats what he had copywrited.You are right that this song is a trad folk song, many many years old.
martcarey 10 months ago
He's Jewish..!
olliespike2 11 months ago
Cambric shirt. A shirt made of wool in western britain in the cambrian mountains, from their sheep's wool off their backs.
Martin Carthy walks on water.
closertofiftythanyew 11 months ago
Gypsey lad traveller family, maybe so, but what diffrence does it make. A true euro lad it sounds.
closertofiftythanyew 11 months ago
i just got a copyright on "parsley, sage, rosemary, & thyme", alternately known as "herbes de provence." please stop cooking with this combination of herbs without paying me royalties, or I will have Paul Simon's lawyers tear you a new one.
annlombardi1 1 year ago
Been trying to track this version down for ages. The more I listen to it the more it gets into my head. Always loved S&G's version of it, but now theirs just sounds cluttered (especially with all that bullshit about fighting wars etc). This version sounds like it's been sung by it's author- beautiful.
flimbambo 1 year ago
my god, what is it with you people...it doesnt matter how influenced P.S was, his version became THEE signified version for a reason. It might have been influenced, but so what, evey1 has influence..it is called the circle of influence...bottom line, S&G version was much different with arrangement, with chords, with production and with the written canticle. No one but S&G deserves credit for it but themselves. This guys version is certainly tasteful but compared to S&G its fucking boring.
codern 1 year ago
@codern bullcrap
andiejanefisher 1 year ago
@andiejanefisher would you care to specify, and if i agree with you, i'll honestly let you know
codern 1 year ago
@codern don't bother
andiejanefisher 1 year ago
@andiejanefisher i love your conviction
codern 1 year ago
@codern I agree S&G version is the more interesting version to me. I'm not saying MC version is bad - just that it is pretty bland. I also have to agree that like maybe 1% of the people that know the song know the version that MC sang, S&G version is what people know. I would also have to say - since it is an old song - nobody can 'steal'. The fact that the S&G version became much, much more popular and the MC version had few people that heard it kind of speaks volumes. It must grate on MC.
cld9731 9 months ago
I have no idea how Paul Simon was able to copyright a song which has existed for centuries. Then again, Jimmy Page stole from Otis Rush, Willie Dixon, Anne Bredon, Bert Jansch and Davy Graham (the latter two he stole arrangements note for note and then renamed the traditional songs). Both Paul Simon and LedZep paid out cash for their indiscretions (reputedly, Willie Dixon got 15 million).
Aviv52 1 year ago 2
@Aviv52
Lots of people do this, and it's hard to figure out how it happens. I guess because they're copyrighting a "slightly changed" version of the original. Peter Paul and Mary did tons of classic folk songs and copyrighted them. Maybe everybody steals from everybody and that's just the way it is. Martin Carthy's version here is so beautiful; it just transports me to another time and another world. Thanks for posting.
ivycompton 1 year ago
In the original sleeve notes MC states that this is a Supernatural tale - a series of imposable tasks designed as a Magical protection against the Malevolent Spirit they are assigned to.
The 'true love of mine' is the woman he seeks to possess.
lostinthedrone 1 year ago 2
S&G should apologize for their dishonest behaviour !!!
LouisLeeKH 1 year ago 2
@LouisLeeKH can you explain why to me please?
codern 1 year ago
Gorgeous....!
LaurentziuRo 1 year ago
fantastic
sumerisle 1 year ago
Martin old chap, you've just made me sob.
There's something unbearably beautiful about this.
kmckmc27 1 year ago 6
This folk song just blew my mind when I first heard Martin Carthy sing it in about 1964. It still sounds so very, very beautiful. Greeting to you, Martin, and indeed every one ... from Colin Hugh Abbott in wonderful Western Australia. Oh, how lovely ...
Jarrahnut 1 year ago
Thank you for this version!! Simon & Garfunkel should have shared the credit with Martin Carthy for adapting his version.
iamsmallwho 1 year ago
Beautiful!
costeris35 1 year ago
can there really have only been 1561 views...???
elliewelllie 1 year ago
also 1:41
"Tell her to plough it with a lamb's horn" (according to other websites)
take4picture 1 year ago
Missing line 2:25
"And to thrash it all out with a bunch of heather"
take4picture 1 year ago
@take4picture
And to thresh it...
taniajosefa 1 year ago
@taniajosefa Hi. Well hard to tell what word (or vowel) Martin Carthy actually sings, but "thrash" can be an alternate spelling of "thresh", so...
take4picture 1 year ago
Great version. Eay to see how Paul Simon was so influenced by it.
bramstokerful 1 year ago 4
Thx very much for your comment.
VolksMusik08 1 year ago
@bramstokerful
Paul Simon wasn't "influenced" as such. Tom Paxton received a dinner invite from Martin Carthy and Simon tagged along. Carthy's arrangement of SF was his biggest song at the time and Simon asked if he would write it down for him, which Carthy naiively did. The next day, Simon copyrighted the song as his own.
PS is a f*cking slimeball.
VisionsOfBanana 1 year ago 25
@VisionsOfBanana
I just heard an interview by P.S. about this song. P.S. mentions Carthy as the person who's recording of this song influenced him. He also maintains that it was like an old Folk song that had been around for years; he simply did his version, but DOES mention Martin Carthy as the person who inspired him to do the version that he and A.G. did. Individuals can not copyright such an existing song no more than they can copyright Jingle Bells ,Silent Night or Amazing Grace
doctord185 11 months ago 2
@doctord185 It seems that Jingle Bells IS copyrighted- by James Lord Peirpont . ! See Wikipedia .
009racine 3 months ago
@009racine Interesting..... :)
doctord185 2 months ago
@VisionsOfBanana This is also wrong. The song is a Traditional English ballad, Carthy found it in a song book. He was only mad because the copyright didn't mention the traditional song.
ilovearmadillos 5 months ago
@VisionsOfBanana
paul simon does not suck. and neither does martin carthy. they're both great
evilthesaurus 3 months ago
@bramstokerful -influenced is putting it mildly, he played it to him and wrote down the lyrics for him. Paul Simon promptly went back and copywrited it.
andiejanefisher 1 year ago
@andiejanefisher he could have sourced the lyrics to the song anywhere, I have it in at least 3 different songbooks.
martcarey 10 months ago
Great song. however the tabs in video do not correspond to what he is playing. (or I have some different tune of my guitar).
I got interested in English folk songs due to this record of Martin Carthey. Seems to me that this version is much more "folk" as I imagine what folklore is like. Now I got interested in English folk due to this record. Is there any other songs you can recommend me to listen to?
gigiopp 1 week ago