so all flesh is born a sinner? thus when born we sin? Was not christ born of the flesh of the womb of mary? So you say by default christ was born a sinner. For he was fully man yet the spirit in him was of the father so he also was fully god. Is NOT a child innocent and pure before the eyes of the Lord? how can something be innocent and pure if it knows sin and has sinned? Sin is transgression of the Law in what way and what law does a child break when born?
LOL no one is born a sinner YHWH (GOD) creates all for a purpose why would he create a sinner defeats the purpose of creation if you ask me. Sin is the way of the World. We are born into the world and its society thus born into sin. The original sin only way it effects us is that we can die a physical death. all the original sin does is bounds us with the chains on birth doesnt make us a sinner. Thus only putting the whole armour of YHWH(GOD) on we can overcome and defeat sin
@jhansen1441 I think it is more along the lines born IN SIN thus born into a fallen world full of sin. We are not BORN SINNERS we are born into SIN cuz its the ways of the world. Why would god create a being that sins againts him before he creates it. No child when it dies whether it is baptized or not goes to Hell or rests in the grave they all go to heaven so how if we are born a sinner can a child enter the Kingdom in which God will have nothing to do with sin
No one is born sinning,man is born dying because of sin. Man is powerless to sin but not born acting in sin Adam ate both good and evil not just evil, and good is morality of law sometimes worse than overt sin.
wait so... all of humanity came from 2 individuals... Epic Biology Fail...
Oh, and God holds the rest of humanity guilty of the acts of those 2 people... what an understanding guy this God is eh ;) how he is able to just... forgive... if he could...
It just doesn't make sense... if only more people would see that...
He misses something here which is very vital to Christian doctrine. Jesus was 100% human. There is nothing essential in human nature contrary to the divine will. It is the world that is fallen. With that first privation of right reason, it became impossible not be be influenced by such privations. A baby is not born sinning, but born in a world world in which he cannot avoid coming to sin.
I was not born sinning I was born a sinner by nature not having the capacity not to sin eventually.But my problem is sin by flesh that is compelled to die so even if I could stop sinning the problem is I'm flesh.And nothing in my flesh can please God. But again Piper exaggerates, I was not born sinning I was born dying in sin because of my flesh of corruption that must sin.
Paul says in Romans 7:9 "I was ONCE ALIVE apart from the law, but WHEN the commandment came, SIN CAME ALIVE AND I DIED. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me." ... people are NOT born sinners. People from an early age learn right and wrong, and chose to do right and wrong by their own free will..."and so death spread to ALL men because ALL SINNED."
Sounds like religi-speak. Can you state that in understandable everyday language? After all, you just identified a "problem" that I have. I don't have such a problem, but I do have an honest curiosity about this sermon snippet and the ideas behind them.
Your explanation is very helpful. I was getting confused when he said "The first adam." Clearly, I should hear this entire sermon before making too much judgment. Context is needed! Thank you.
My wife says this is something like Augustinianism? Or something to do with the name, "Augustine." Am I on the right track? Many Christians don't believe the Genesis Story to be a literal eyewitness account of literal characters in a literal garden, but see it as a powerful creation myth to explain the origins of the universe to Bronze Age pre-scientific minds. I'm getting heckled here for my earnest questions.
I know Piper to be somewhat controversial in some of his tenets.
KC, then how can your wife explain that Jesus refered to the Genesis account as a literal story? It isn't some myth, the Bible CONSISTENTLY documents the Genesis account as a historical record, even Paul also. All the Bible is equally inspired, all God-breathed Scripture. The Christians who don't believe in the Genesis account are those who submit to the idolatry of evolution because they are intimidated by empty "facts" so called, that aren't really facts just deception.
Creation myths are powerful and true. Every one of the great faiths has one--before science was a factor, men were formed from God's spit and women were made from ribs. This is a Bronze Age Myth--no less powerful or inspired, but not an account in the sense of accounts of eywitnesses. What are you suggesting?
To answer your questions as helpfully as possible, the eyewitness is God, who inspired the factual and literally true details of the text penned by the human "author" of Genesis, the same as He did with the other biblical authors. And to answer your first question, Piper is referencing the story from the viewpoint that Adam was in fact an actual personage, as described literally by God in His Word. So, yes, Piper's theology hinges on this high view of scriptural accuracy. Does that help?:)
So we (and all the other sycophants here who are giving me the "thumbs down" for my temerity to question) are to believe that the poetic story of a man and a talking snake, the rib becoming a woman--that this story is a sort of factual account? I may be the only one saying so here--but this is commonly known to be inspired poetic history. This pattern is found elsewhere, and is no less powerful as mythical explanation of God's creative process.
The question is neither 'high' nor 'low' in regard to accuracy--but am I then to understand that Piper is a young-earth creationist? That after the story of the talking snake and the apple, Adam's kids making babies together--I have always thought Piper held a more mainstream view of scriptural language.
My wife says these are two different arguments: The Adam Story and Our Connection to Adam's Original Sin. I find them connected, though.
Kc, your problem is the classic problem of all humanity, you think that it's "impossible" for a snake to talk(even though a donkey also talked in the Bible, literally).
You thought that I was just like you; I will reprove you and state the case in order before your eyes." (Ps. 50:21).
You reason, "If it's impossible in my eyes then it's also impossbiel in God's eyes, or "If I wouldn't do it, neither would God!" God is HOLY and all he does is righteous. Come to Jesus he is the ONLY savior:)
Dj. Respectfully, I think you're using the word 'myth' like the word 'untruth' or 'lie.' Myth is a powerful literary form used throughout the Bible and all literature. It is not a lie, but is a figurative manner of speech like simile and metaphor, which are often attributed to Christ. I totally agree with everything you say--but am using the word "myth" in a slightly different way. Thanks for your exhaustive commentary.
I disagree with your assertion that the Genesis account is "commonly known to be" mythical (you mean allegorical) rather than factual (literal). This is not undisputed. In fact, Jesus himself, and the majority of church history has interpreted this "myth" as literally factual, as well as people such as Piper and myself. It is for absolutely no theological reasons that the other view has ever been promoted
.... but the view of scripture as allegorical rather than literal arose only in a weak attempt to harmonize Biblical creationism with secular science. This presupposes (erroneously, I believe) that old-earth, evolutionary science is correct. You wrongly assume that the text can't be literally true. I believe that Satan performed the extraordinary by inhabiting the guise of a snake and talking. He can do that, you know. But you're right in your observation that there IS a connection between...
the interpretation of the person of Adam as a literal, historical, singular human being, and the orthodox Christian doctrine of the fall of man, the Adamic nature and original sin. In fact, Christian theology hinges upon a (and I reassert "HIGH") view of scripture as totally factual rather than simply symbolic mythology of more abstract truths. Piper understands this, and his message is hogwash without this literal interpretation of the text. For example, look at what Paul says in Romans 5:12-19
Assuming that the character of Adam in the Genesis myth is a figurative personage, how does Piper's use of his name work in this sermon? The creation myth is a powerful story, but Piper seems to be referencing it in a different way. What's happening here?
My questions are meant in earnestness. Please either reply in the same spirit, or politely leave me for somebody else--but your 'thumbs downing' of me doesn't serve as much of a testament to your faith. I guess anonymity brings out peoples' (Christians'?) true nature, huh?
Kc, the creation of Genesis was consistently applied as a historical fact by the Bible and by Jesus. God's word doesn't change, God doesn't get less wise or mose wise, he is always the same, therfore, His word is always wise sir and not a "bronze age myth." You just have a fairly man-centered worldview (all you're concerned about is ME ME ME ME ME, and not GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD!) and that's why you see it as "uninspired."
All Scripture is God breathed, and Jesus is your Lord and always will be.
There are many who share my view who are no less devoted Christians. Myths are powerful and found throughout scripture, and do not make it any less inspired. The Bible is full of history, myth, poetry, and narrative that is all inspired.
Kc, those who share your view either aren't Christians or don't know their Bible very well. The Bible is not "myth" everything is historical fact because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie. Everything the Bible says is true. I can determine when you have a man-centered worldview when you rather accept the Bible from what your opinions are or from who you think God is or how you think the Bible is rather than letting the Bible define itself and speak for itself. That's an honest answer.
Say more about my 'man-centered worldview'--how do you determine that from what I say, and what is illustrative in your life of having some other kind of worldview?
Again, my question is not meant as a chide, but an honest request for an answer.
so all flesh is born a sinner? thus when born we sin? Was not christ born of the flesh of the womb of mary? So you say by default christ was born a sinner. For he was fully man yet the spirit in him was of the father so he also was fully god. Is NOT a child innocent and pure before the eyes of the Lord? how can something be innocent and pure if it knows sin and has sinned? Sin is transgression of the Law in what way and what law does a child break when born?
ForeverYAHs 4 months ago
LOL no one is born a sinner YHWH (GOD) creates all for a purpose why would he create a sinner defeats the purpose of creation if you ask me. Sin is the way of the World. We are born into the world and its society thus born into sin. The original sin only way it effects us is that we can die a physical death. all the original sin does is bounds us with the chains on birth doesnt make us a sinner. Thus only putting the whole armour of YHWH(GOD) on we can overcome and defeat sin
xXxCOV3RTxXx 1 year ago
@xXxCOV3RTxXx Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."
we are all born in sin.
jhansen1441 8 months ago
@jhansen1441 I think it is more along the lines born IN SIN thus born into a fallen world full of sin. We are not BORN SINNERS we are born into SIN cuz its the ways of the world. Why would god create a being that sins againts him before he creates it. No child when it dies whether it is baptized or not goes to Hell or rests in the grave they all go to heaven so how if we are born a sinner can a child enter the Kingdom in which God will have nothing to do with sin
xXxCOV3RTxXx 8 months ago
No one is born sinning,man is born dying because of sin. Man is powerless to sin but not born acting in sin Adam ate both good and evil not just evil, and good is morality of law sometimes worse than overt sin.
polopowers1 1 year ago
wait so... all of humanity came from 2 individuals... Epic Biology Fail...
Oh, and God holds the rest of humanity guilty of the acts of those 2 people... what an understanding guy this God is eh ;) how he is able to just... forgive... if he could...
It just doesn't make sense... if only more people would see that...
hutchings000 1 year ago
He misses something here which is very vital to Christian doctrine. Jesus was 100% human. There is nothing essential in human nature contrary to the divine will. It is the world that is fallen. With that first privation of right reason, it became impossible not be be influenced by such privations. A baby is not born sinning, but born in a world world in which he cannot avoid coming to sin.
WorBlux 1 year ago
I was not born sinning I was born a sinner by nature not having the capacity not to sin eventually.But my problem is sin by flesh that is compelled to die so even if I could stop sinning the problem is I'm flesh.And nothing in my flesh can please God. But again Piper exaggerates, I was not born sinning I was born dying in sin because of my flesh of corruption that must sin.
polopowers1 1 year ago
Paul says in Romans 7:9 "I was ONCE ALIVE apart from the law, but WHEN the commandment came, SIN CAME ALIVE AND I DIED. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me." ... people are NOT born sinners. People from an early age learn right and wrong, and chose to do right and wrong by their own free will..."and so death spread to ALL men because ALL SINNED."
apollos6640 1 year ago
You people who take the Bible litterally frighten me.
jmdnarri 1 year ago
check your theology
radicalvideoz 2 years ago
@reyjacobs just cause u have a disagreement with him does not mean he is not saved nor does it mean he is satan.
gallegs7 2 years ago
@gallegs7 nor does it mean he is using the passage in Ezekiel correctly.
HypoTheLlamas 1 year ago
It does.
It sounds really complex, though--and I guess it's just not for me.
Thanks for your patience.
kc7fys 2 years ago
Sounds like religi-speak. Can you state that in understandable everyday language? After all, you just identified a "problem" that I have. I don't have such a problem, but I do have an honest curiosity about this sermon snippet and the ideas behind them.
kc7fys 2 years ago
Your explanation is very helpful. I was getting confused when he said "The first adam." Clearly, I should hear this entire sermon before making too much judgment. Context is needed! Thank you.
kc7fys 2 years ago
My wife says this is something like Augustinianism? Or something to do with the name, "Augustine." Am I on the right track? Many Christians don't believe the Genesis Story to be a literal eyewitness account of literal characters in a literal garden, but see it as a powerful creation myth to explain the origins of the universe to Bronze Age pre-scientific minds. I'm getting heckled here for my earnest questions.
I know Piper to be somewhat controversial in some of his tenets.
kc7fys 2 years ago
KC, then how can your wife explain that Jesus refered to the Genesis account as a literal story? It isn't some myth, the Bible CONSISTENTLY documents the Genesis account as a historical record, even Paul also. All the Bible is equally inspired, all God-breathed Scripture. The Christians who don't believe in the Genesis account are those who submit to the idolatry of evolution because they are intimidated by empty "facts" so called, that aren't really facts just deception.
Dejan2116 2 years ago
Creation myths are powerful and true. Every one of the great faiths has one--before science was a factor, men were formed from God's spit and women were made from ribs. This is a Bronze Age Myth--no less powerful or inspired, but not an account in the sense of accounts of eywitnesses. What are you suggesting?
kc7fys 2 years ago
To answer your questions as helpfully as possible, the eyewitness is God, who inspired the factual and literally true details of the text penned by the human "author" of Genesis, the same as He did with the other biblical authors. And to answer your first question, Piper is referencing the story from the viewpoint that Adam was in fact an actual personage, as described literally by God in His Word. So, yes, Piper's theology hinges on this high view of scriptural accuracy. Does that help?:)
ironshadowspider 2 years ago
So we (and all the other sycophants here who are giving me the "thumbs down" for my temerity to question) are to believe that the poetic story of a man and a talking snake, the rib becoming a woman--that this story is a sort of factual account? I may be the only one saying so here--but this is commonly known to be inspired poetic history. This pattern is found elsewhere, and is no less powerful as mythical explanation of God's creative process.
kc7fys 2 years ago
The question is neither 'high' nor 'low' in regard to accuracy--but am I then to understand that Piper is a young-earth creationist? That after the story of the talking snake and the apple, Adam's kids making babies together--I have always thought Piper held a more mainstream view of scriptural language.
My wife says these are two different arguments: The Adam Story and Our Connection to Adam's Original Sin. I find them connected, though.
Am I alone in my citation of this interpretation?
kc7fys 2 years ago
Kc, your problem is the classic problem of all humanity, you think that it's "impossible" for a snake to talk(even though a donkey also talked in the Bible, literally).
You thought that I was just like you; I will reprove you and state the case in order before your eyes." (Ps. 50:21).
You reason, "If it's impossible in my eyes then it's also impossbiel in God's eyes, or "If I wouldn't do it, neither would God!" God is HOLY and all he does is righteous. Come to Jesus he is the ONLY savior:)
Dejan2116 2 years ago
Dj. Respectfully, I think you're using the word 'myth' like the word 'untruth' or 'lie.' Myth is a powerful literary form used throughout the Bible and all literature. It is not a lie, but is a figurative manner of speech like simile and metaphor, which are often attributed to Christ. I totally agree with everything you say--but am using the word "myth" in a slightly different way. Thanks for your exhaustive commentary.
I like your slogans. Keep on keeping on!
kc7fys 2 years ago
I disagree with your assertion that the Genesis account is "commonly known to be" mythical (you mean allegorical) rather than factual (literal). This is not undisputed. In fact, Jesus himself, and the majority of church history has interpreted this "myth" as literally factual, as well as people such as Piper and myself. It is for absolutely no theological reasons that the other view has ever been promoted
ironshadowspider 2 years ago
.... but the view of scripture as allegorical rather than literal arose only in a weak attempt to harmonize Biblical creationism with secular science. This presupposes (erroneously, I believe) that old-earth, evolutionary science is correct. You wrongly assume that the text can't be literally true. I believe that Satan performed the extraordinary by inhabiting the guise of a snake and talking. He can do that, you know. But you're right in your observation that there IS a connection between...
ironshadowspider 2 years ago
the interpretation of the person of Adam as a literal, historical, singular human being, and the orthodox Christian doctrine of the fall of man, the Adamic nature and original sin. In fact, Christian theology hinges upon a (and I reassert "HIGH") view of scripture as totally factual rather than simply symbolic mythology of more abstract truths. Piper understands this, and his message is hogwash without this literal interpretation of the text. For example, look at what Paul says in Romans 5:12-19
ironshadowspider 2 years ago
Assuming that the character of Adam in the Genesis myth is a figurative personage, how does Piper's use of his name work in this sermon? The creation myth is a powerful story, but Piper seems to be referencing it in a different way. What's happening here?
kc7fys 2 years ago
Why do you attribute a mythical quality to Genesis so matter-of-factly? It's precise why you're not getting it.
MoNoChRoMiC 2 years ago 3
Unsaved person trying to figure it out?!
vico100 2 years ago
Monochrome and Vico--I am not following you.
kc7fys 2 years ago
My questions are meant in earnestness. Please either reply in the same spirit, or politely leave me for somebody else--but your 'thumbs downing' of me doesn't serve as much of a testament to your faith. I guess anonymity brings out peoples' (Christians'?) true nature, huh?
kc7fys 2 years ago
Kc, the creation of Genesis was consistently applied as a historical fact by the Bible and by Jesus. God's word doesn't change, God doesn't get less wise or mose wise, he is always the same, therfore, His word is always wise sir and not a "bronze age myth." You just have a fairly man-centered worldview (all you're concerned about is ME ME ME ME ME, and not GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD!) and that's why you see it as "uninspired."
All Scripture is God breathed, and Jesus is your Lord and always will be.
Dejan2116 2 years ago
There are many who share my view who are no less devoted Christians. Myths are powerful and found throughout scripture, and do not make it any less inspired. The Bible is full of history, myth, poetry, and narrative that is all inspired.
kc7fys 2 years ago
Kc, those who share your view either aren't Christians or don't know their Bible very well. The Bible is not "myth" everything is historical fact because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie. Everything the Bible says is true. I can determine when you have a man-centered worldview when you rather accept the Bible from what your opinions are or from who you think God is or how you think the Bible is rather than letting the Bible define itself and speak for itself. That's an honest answer.
Dejan2116 2 years ago
Say more about my 'man-centered worldview'--how do you determine that from what I say, and what is illustrative in your life of having some other kind of worldview?
Again, my question is not meant as a chide, but an honest request for an answer.
kc7fys 2 years ago