*YES SIDE: all international chambers of commerce, most independent economists, 3 main political parties, IFA, IBEC, IDA, ISME, SIPTU, ICTU, most major trade unions, Small Firms Association, Pfizer, Ryanair, Intel, Microsoft.
NO vote = we are still in the EU, like we are now, and the EU must be more accountable to the people of Europe. It stops the runaway power of the EU parliament and its gravy train expenses.
YES vote = no way back, we can't undo mistakes made in the treaty or the EU, our say in EU is halved. Some countries say is doubled.
The mature thing is to stand up and tell EU to correct the problems, not to give in to the accusing tut-tutting of EU politicians trying to tell us we should be embarrassed.
NO SIDE: Shinners, Ganley, Socialists, Coir, Eirigi, UKIP, Le Pen, BNP.
YES SIDE: all international chambers of commerce, most independent economists, 3 main political parties, IFA, IBEC, SIPTU, ICTU, most major trade unions, Pfizer, Ryanair, Intel, Microsoft.
God, he says that the irish vote didn't solve the problems the treaty is meant to tackle.. liek maybe that pesky right we have to tell you to fuck off? apart from fixing that what else is that treaty supposed to fix? So sick of this vague bullshit excuse
NO SIDE: Shinners, Ganley, Socialists, Coir, Eirigi, UKIP, Le Pen, BNP.
YES SIDE: all international chambers of commerce, 3 main political parties, IFA, IBEC, SIPTU, ICTU, most major trade unions, Ryanair, Intel, Microsoft.
Decent,democratic,law-abiding people all over Europe are praying that the brave Irish vote NO again to this MADNESS !
We too want to keep our constitutions and parliamentary democracies ! We too want to keep our health systems,legal systems,school systems,own police and military.
Ireland PLEASE say NO again to the 2nd Lisbon PUTSCH attempt ! For yourselves,for your children and for the millions of us denied a say by a tiny un-elected "elite" in Brussels.
one reason more to vote no, the irish will vote also for me not being from ireland, please vote No and rescue Europe from this political class and rescue democracy.
On behalf of all European TAXPAYERS,...I hope that the thousands of European Union employees had a wonderful Christmas (at our expense), as you do each year.
We also hope that the 45 MILLION Euros travel expenses paid to you ( by the un-elected Council of Europe)...was enough ! Don´t bother with reciepts and if you need more next year,don't hesitate NOT to ask us. !
Happy undemocratic New Year !
VOTE in the June European elections for anyone willing to fight EU corruption.
Excuse me for asking but..is this the same José Barroso who holidayed on Spiro Latsis' yacht only one month before the Greek shipping billionare was approved 10.3 MILLION Euros by Barroso's (un-elected) Council of Europe ?
P.S. As the Irish "no" vote was larger than Obama's "yes" vote,.. perhaps Mr Barosso should ask the American electorate to vote again !
Check out Open Europe/eutruth/Libertas and VOTE in the coming European elections !
Article 48 of the Lisbon treaty regarding self ammending acts Mirror the nazi parties 1933 enabling acts. And if you ask a nation to vote yes or no to somthing and they give you a resounding No , and then you tell them try that again, Thats not democracy thats facism. Barroso suporting that makes him a fascist in my book but dont worry he's got plenty of company Like Shultz,De rossa,Mitchell etc etc
REMINDER To take the figures & provide the FACTS The EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty must by its own LAWS be RATified by all 27 member regions. So far 19 Nations have surrendered to the RATification that's 19 countries or 5000 politicians! France with a population of 64,473,140 Netherlands with a population of 16,428,071 & Ireland with a population of 4,339,000 EACH by a majority voted NO In Democratic terms 85M to 5,000 AGAINST The EU has no mandate - is it then a dictatorship?
I won't waste my time discussing this with you anymore, scraggymess. You're completely out of reach, and you're so close-minded that nothing will penetrate your barrier of ignorance.
EU will continue growing stronger, and Ireland will continue being a member.
Hahahahahah The Lisbon treaty is going NOWHERE - just like your stealth empire project - And we know where you sneaky French aparachniks are planning on taking the EU and we the Irish public want nothing to do with it! reading the shit you posted made me realise what a low grade enemy the EU is becoming to the people of Europe - I'm going to join Libertas and do whatever I can to make sure we don't lose our democracy to you and your fucked up EU dictatorship -
Hey, maybe you should look up the definitions of advanced (for you) words such as "dicatorship" and "democracy", because you clearly have no idea what they mean.
Oh and the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty is going quite excellent in the UK.
You very clearly have not the slightest Idea what Democracy is - The British public are fully aware of the Fraud that was committed by brown and his washed up left wing gov. The action of the EU has made the likelihood of UK completely leaving the EU much more likely! Blair promised the public a referendum and Brown signed without public consent - Brown is unelected and is about to be sacked - Cameron has promised to repeal all of Brown's decisions regarding Europe. You lose!
Irish Ministers have been talking for weeks about trying to ratify Lisbon without another refendum and without public consent - the Highest Legal authority in the country the attorney general has said this would be illegal! - I dont know which propaganda press reports you are getting over there in France but ALL the press over here know that Lisbon would be defeated by an even higher majority if it was put to a referendum again!
I have tried to post the links for Mccreevy but they keep dissappearing! type in - EU control of taxation Mccreevy - to google and the first returned result is where I got my information from independent . the 4th result has a fuller text
Thomas Jefferson - 'Trade and Commerce with all nations - binding treaties with none' Ireland as the Largest US military base on the edge of Europe - got a nice ring to it? It's gonna happen! 63% of Ireland's current trade is with the US and UK- we can afford to become the largest Tax haven on the continent of Europe - Any European businesses sick of EU regulation can come and be free! We have the potential to become socialist France's worst nightmare! When we leave we will have a huge party!
You are the idealist - I'm the pragmatist! I want Ireland to be governed by Ireland - we have nothing in common with Europe! every one of our morals and instincts are at odds with Europe- we are free market capitalists and you are command economy socialists - while you are union appeasing/carbon taxing yourselves out of existence - we will be pissing ourselves laughing along with every other economy in the world.
mmmm let me see - I said the EU wanted to take control of taxation and was backed up by a senior commissioner - your response was I must have got the quote from somewhere or other...
you said that the EU was democratically trustworthy and I proved it wasn't - by giving examples of its outrageously undemocratic behaviour, and your other point that there was nothing for Ireland to worry about by signing up to Lisbon as the opt outs were final - I proved that was crap - You lose!
#1: The quote from the Commissioner McReevy is not worthy of trust as you got it from a 'very' PoV'd site.
#2: Where did you prove it wasn't democratically trustworthy? You showed absolutely no evidence at all, only lunatic conspiracy theories.
#3: I don't get your last point. What opt outs are you talking about? The ones in the Nice Treaty? That hardly has anything to do with the Lisbon Treaty, other than Ireland is ensured military neutrality, unless it changes its mind.
#1 quote from Irish independent newspaper - I can't post link because youtube won't allow - very easy to find - and He certainly said it!
2#Nice and Lisbon are the same treaty! Nice was democratically rejected. Lisbon was rejected! EU pressing ahaead anyway = dictatorship!
3# The most important opt out for the irish electorate was the promise from the EU that Ireland would be free to set our own tax rates - Valery Giscard d'estaing says 'opt outs are not worth the paper they were written on'.
According to Charlie McCreevy "The long term hidden agenda" is for a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base (CCCTB) to enable the Commission to take control of taxation, first by making it optional. When this proves unworkable, the Commission could take control of taxation and smaller countries in particular would no longer be able, or have the incentive, to manage effectively their public finance or direct foreign investment. (Irish Independent Newspaper, 12 May 2007) FROM THE HEART OF THE EU!
Nice try - I've never even heard of EUinfo - I'll be sure to look it up! I got the qupote from the Irish Independent Newspaper - FFS I even gave you the date! The quote is on hundreds of sites! Either you are an extremely naive in not being able to see how necessary it is for an emerging empire to take control of taxation or you're a fully paid up EU aparachnik (and if you're French then you prob spent years in Bercy )- with a vested interest in keeping the true nature of Lisbon hidden
Wow. Thank you bringing this discussion down to a new level. Do a search anywhere (Google) on the internet, and you'll that EUinfo is the only site that has that exact quote (With supplied date) on it.
You're horrible at lying. I guess this is what you can expect from most Eurosceptics.
"European Army" continued ->> "While we have and will continue to participate in peace keeping missions we do so on a case by case basis and subject to our Triple Lock principle - requiring the support of Government, Parliament and a United Nations mandate."
--> "This is untrue. The new arrangements for cooperation in the areas of security and defence fully respect the neutral position of Ireland and other Member States. Ireland will not be subject to a mutual defence clause. European military activity is directed at peacekeeping and crisis intervention. Participation is at the option of each Member State, not obligatory." Continued ->
"Other Countries are not having Referenda, so we should Vote No"
-> "We do not get to tell other countries, other nations, how they go about ratifying Treaties, whether they are EU Treaties or any other international Treaty. Even the most committed federalist would agree that how other countries decide on whether they sign up or not cannot be dictated by Brussels or by any other member state. No member state gets to tell any other member state what means they should use for ratification."
On tax continued ->>: "A Commission proposal for a "Common Co-ordinated Corporation Tax Base" is under discussion. The objective of this is to provide that, for the purposes of taxation, all Member States would use a common system of defining the tax base, but not the rates of tax. A number of Member States, including Ireland, have already made it clear that they will not agree to this. This proposal will not succeed."
What do you mean this proposal will not succeed? - A number of member states including Ireland voted No to Nice/Lisbon - what happened? they went ahead anyway - shove your 'democratic reassurances' up your arse. The recent behaviour of the EU (and apologists like you) has blown any semblance of democratic credibility out of the water- Time to leave - And we'll have our territorial waters back when we do leave - mmm- I think maybe an Atlantic Alliance is looking likely - Maybe US Naval Bases too!
Wrong. Get your facts straight: "The Irish government, having obtained the Seville Declaration on Ireland's policy of military neutrality from the European Council, decided to have another referendum on the Treaty of Nice on Saturday, 19 October 2002. Two significant qualifications were included in the second proposed amendment, one requiring the consent of the Dáil for enhanced cooperation under the treaty, and another preventing Ireland from joining any EU common defence policy."
You misunderstood my point- I WANT US Naval bases here - we'll need them to protect our coastal waters from french overfishing! - Irish Neutrality is a joke - the Russians are just about to invade Ukraine - who do you think we will run to when the shit hits the fan? France? not bloody likely-We have everything in common with the free market English speaking world and almost nothing in common with communist French led Europe with delusions of grandeur! La Gloire de France? absolutement non merci!
Haha. Oh my god. You're completely out of reach. Not only do you have an irrational hate towards the french, but you actually think Russia will attack Ukraine. It is not only the 2nd. largest military power in Europe, it also a member of the PfP NATO program. The EU and NATO will not let Russia invade Ukraine as it did in Georgia, and Russia knows this.
Russia will do whatever the Fuck it wants - Superpowers always do! Eastern Half of Ukraine used to be Russian and Russia will not allow Ukraine to tell it what to do with Sebastapol.
But yeah -with Napoleon Sarkozy on the Ukrainian side the Russians will be too scared to protect their own people and interests! NOT!!!!
On tax (continued): This is simply untrue. Ireland's veto on tax harmonisation is a sound legal instrument that cannot be lost unless our Government were to take a considered decision to do away with it. This is unlikely.
On taxes: "This Treaty clarifies what areas the EU can legislate on, and tax is not one of them. Ireland retains control of its own tax policy and its own tax rates.
Under the new Treaty we will retain our veto on an EU-wide tax. There is no reference in the Treaty to a common tax policy whatsoever. The No side are deliberately misleading the public, alleging that the Reform Treaty will undermine our corporate tax rate of 12.5%."
Also, according to the newest poll conducted 7 June 2008, 42% of the Irish are in favour of the Treaty, while 39% are against and 19% undecided (Most of them will most likely vote YES once the EU initiates its very much needed educational plan about the Lisbon Treaty in Ireland.
According to polls, 22% (!!) of the NO-voters "Because I do not know enough about the Treaty and would not want to vote for something I am not familiar with", 6% voted NO because they wanted to keep their commissioner (??), which is a flawed reason as the commissioner doesn't represents his nationality. 5% voted no because they were against a unified Europe, which is totally irrelevant when voting for a treaty. Adding the smaller invalid reasons, you get 35% invalid votes from the NO-side.
"What all these things taken individually point to is a rather impoverished cultural and intellectual society, a society not at all informed in the proper areas and sadly if curiously lacking in the hard questions when it comes to the nub of secular politics. Who, for example, is Declan Ganley? What are his American interests? Why should being a 'good Catholic' require mention if not to cover a trail that might open up greater questions? And why spend over a million Euros on saying 'No'?"
"There was the amplified fear of Ireland being dragged into war on Europe's behalf, even though the US, flying out of Galway, had beenengaged in an illegal war for years - a fact which people temporarily forgot. Then there was the sexual promiscuity - fear , even though no one dared mention 'clerical pedophilia', the damages arising from which the Irish taxpayer rejoiced in paying. But this also was never mentioned due to a temporary loss of memory."
Neutrality is a red herring - nobody I know thinks neutrality or any other spurious excuses that you apologists like to blame for the thwarting of your ambitions. here is the reason- WE LIKE BEING IN CONTROL OF OUR OWN DESTINY!- just like New Zealand,Australia,Iceland,Norway,Switzerland and all the others that I could mention - we will survive and thrive outside the EU. We will watch from the outside and laugh as you regulate and legislate yourselves in oblivion!
I wonder if you would have the same opinion if EU hadn't stepped in and saved your economy? You were in control of your own destiny before that, and it didn't look like it was going very well.
Switzerland thrives on its financial industry, and it would never be able to become a part of EU because of the principles the Swiss have regarding banking.
Norway thrives off the diminishing. Denmark has the strongest economy in Scandinavia and is a part of EU.
Ireland is a low tax and low regulation free market economy -just like USA, Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia- WE have nothing in common with the French ambitions for the EU. 90% of EU funding goes on CAP payments to make sure that our farmers don't farm! we Import 80% of our food!! we import 90% of our yoghurt from Germany - you couldn't make this shit up! We are a tiny country and will adapt to whatever comes our way - thanks for the 40bn but bye bye!
Ignorance of the Irish: "The matter is complicated by the fact that there is scant evidence of Irish concerns, which are a factual part of the Lisbon Treaty or could be assuaged by palliative measures. There are few legal instruments available to dispel disenchantment, myths or various individual worries, especially when many of them are outside the scope of the treaty (or any conceivable replacement)."
There's a change to the standing requirements in Article 230 §4 for individuals to challenge acts of the institutions. First, any act will be open to challenge if it addressed to the plaintiff, not just decisions. If the act is not addressed to her, the plaintiff must show that the act is of direct and individual concern. Second, in the case of a regulatory act, the plaintiff must show that the regulatory act is of direct concern and that the act does not entail implementing measures.
"The new Treaty also reinforces participatory democracy. It allows interested parties be consulted and that a dialogue be maintained with civil society and representative organisations. It requires that the work of the institutions be transparent and in particular that the activities of the Council and the European Parliament be public when they legislate." Wow. Don't you like this?
Wow -don't I like this??? are you for fucking real? Which bit of we don't want to be ruled by Brussels do you not get? Which bit of this far and no further -do you not understand? Which bit of the French NO the Dutch NO the Irish NO and the upcoming British NO can you not get into your naive head?
We said NO Just like the vast majority of the european electorate would have voted if they hadn't been robbed and swindled of their say- You and the other apologists for Lisbon are arrogant crooks!
Wait wait wait. Current polls show that the "Yes to Lisbon Treaty" group is a quite big majority in Ireland now.
"Robbed and swindled of their say"? What is this? It happens in accordance with the law. Don't like the law? Complain to your local politician.
Oh and: "In the event, the decision of the court is itself clear. We have found nothing in the claimant's case to cast doubt on the lawfulness of ratifying the Lisbon Treaty without a referendum."
Dream on - there is no legal basis for a second referendum - unlike the first Nice referendum the turnout was high enough for the result to stand - any attempt to rerun the referendum will result in a legal challenge which will take years! We wouldn't be having a second referendum if the result was Yes! 80%+ of the British public do not want further integration with Europe - the next UK gov will do what is necessary to undo the Fraud committed under Brown
Irish ministers can believe what they want to - any attempt to have a second refendum will be met with multiple legal challenges and will spend years in court! - long enough for Britain to piss on your Parade and completely kill off your grand project! Or if you want a two speed Europe please count Britain and Us out! It's the Yes campaign that is being picked off one by one, most of my friends and family that stupidly voted yes say they will vote no next time!
Vote no for what reason? Because they don't want another referendum? That's an invalid reason.
It's sad that there there are so many stupid people.
Oh and I think Irish ministers have a bit more experience and knowledge in and about politics than you, so you can't preach as much as you want, it's not going to change anything.
Irish ministers thought that Ireland would vote yes to Lisbon and they were sooooooooooooooo fucking wrong - but hey - you hang onto whatever crumbs of comfort you have to - but know one thing - Lisbon will not be ratified by Ireland!
You Lose!
Oh and another thing - Libertas and ukip will be fielding hundreds of candidates at the next elections - and because of your (EU)behaviour they are going to win every seat - when they do - 1st item on agenda remove the Lisbon Treaty!
You arrogant Euro imperialist fuck! Are you telling us what to do? The only piss and shit that will be left behind will be the piss and shit that masquerades as democracy in your failed empire! Ireland without the EU will become a shining light for the rest of Europe. When the eastern european nations realise they have become prisoners in your grand scheme they will wish they had Ireland's independence - Fuck you -fuck your ultimatums -and fuck the greedy power stealing EU
Continued: The legislating institutions may then decide (by 55% of the members of the Council or by a majority of the European Parliament) whether or not to continue with the legislative procedure.
Lisbon Treaty: "If the legislative proposal is challenged by a simple majority of the votes allocated to national parliaments and if the Commission decides to maintain its proposal regardless, a special procedure comes into play. The Commission will have to issue a reasoned opinion explaining how the principle of subsidiarity is being respected. The Commission's opinion is forwarded to the legislating institutions together with the reasoned opinions of the national parliaments."
If the Lisbon Treaty is put into effect: "National parliaments are allocated votes : Each national parliament has two votes, shared on the basis of the national system and if the system is a bicameral one, each chamber or house is given one vote. If the reasoned opinion represents at least one third of the votes allocated to national parliaments, the institution that made the proposal must review it and then decide whether to maintain, amend or withdraw it"
If the Lisbon Treaty is put into effect: "The Protocol on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality is amended to allow closer scrutiny of subsidiarity by national parliaments. Under an early-warning system, any national parliament may, within eight weeks of being sent a legislative proposal, issue a reasoned opinion stating why it considers that the proposal does not comply with the principle of subsidiarity."
Wow lucky national parliaments being allowed to issue a reasoned opinion - which will of course be ignored by Europe!
At the moment the National parliaments are free to do whatever they want to do that is in the National interest - and you wonder why we said No to being a tiny speck in a totalitarian EU- Shove your subsidiarity and proportionality up your corrupt hole!
That's still no reason to vote NO to the Lisbon Treaty. The treaty contained nothing negative at all regarding national sovreignty, it actually made the lines between national responsibility and EU responsibility much more clear and gave the national parliaments a bigger voice in the process of making a law.
You lying cunt! Lisbon has No negative affect on National sovereignty - you utter twat! That's just like saying Hitler had no negative effect on the Jews.
Get back to your EU desk and do some proper work - whoever authorised your EU pay for this work ought to be fired - won't be of course because missappropriation of EU funds is perfectly legal - isn't it you French Fuck?
Typical bullshit from a eurosceptical liar. Can you quote the passages in the treaty or quote a summary of it from a trustworthy website? All you have is the words of other eurosceptics.
Article 48, Article 308 (and others) make the treaty completely self-amending in that they enable the European Council to extend the areas in which the EU can legislate and make major changes to the functioning of the Union by majority vote, without the need for a new treaty.
All the commission need to then do to take control of taxation is to create an EU based incorporated business entity- make registration compulsory and hey presto - tax is paid directly to the EU. It's already happening
"The Lisbon Treaty proposes the "Convention-Method" for treaty amendments (Article 48.2 TEU. Member States, the EP and the Commission would be able to initiate amendments. Then, the European Council would decide by simple majority if a Convention should be convened. The Convention would decide "by common accord" whether to adopt or not to adopt these amendments. Amendments adopted by the Convention would then have to be ratified by all member states before entering into force."
(1) Art.48 (TEU) - also called the "passerelle" clause - will allow moving the legislative bases for the harmonisation/approximation of indirect and direct taxation from unanimity to QMV!
(2) New Art.352 (TFEU) confers upon the Union a general power to attain any of the objectives of the Treaties, among them the objective to ensure 'free and undistorted competition'. '- Opt-outs offered to countries ratifying Lisbon are not worth the paper they are written on' -Valery Giscard d'Estaing
"For tax harmonisation to come into force, all countries will have to vote in favour. So if for example Britain or Luxembourg do not want to have a EU-wide minimum tax on savings and investment, they can stop the tax from going ahead by vetoing the proposal. But once a harmonisation plan is agreed by at least 20 of the member states, there is no chance to opt out anymore."
Article 48 (TEU) provides for the veto (that Britain was told was guaranteed) to be removed without British consent! As much as they tried to hide this clause - it's still right there!
Lesson: the EU will do whatever it wants and there are in fact no vetos on anything - we aren't stupid. watch the backlash when you try to pass this through without democratic consent
The only reason they want to be able to do this is because creating new treaties is very inefficient and takes a lot of time. It'd make the EU much more efficient if article 48 was put into effect. Isn't that what you Eurosceptics complain about? The EU moving around and wasting a lot of time and money on beaucracy? This is one of the things the Lisbon Treaty tries to stop.
Oh and can you please supply evidence of EU trying to do the thing with taxes?
According to Charlie McCreevy "The long term hidden agenda" is for a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base (CCCTB) to enable the Commission to take control of taxation, first by making it optional. When this proves unworkable, the Commission could take control of taxation and smaller countries in particular would no longer be able, or have the incentive, to manage effectively their public finance or direct foreign investment. (Irish Independent, 12 May 2007)
Brussels is now proposing a new kind of European company, this time called a European Private Company (Societas Privata Europaea, or SPE). Part of the legislation includes the option of companies electing to choose the EU as their national tax base- with tax paid directly to the EU.
"Aim of the proposal is to remove the current need for limited companies to reincorporate themselves in the corresponding legal form in all the EU member countries in which they want to trade, which currently represents a substantial administrative burden for small and medium enterprises."
Also, I doubt EU would be the one losing if Ireland left, as it's stopping progress right now. Don't forget it was EU that picked Ireland up and boosted its economy (and your sense of arrogance, it seems).
The EU has somehow changed from a loosely affiliated trading block to an undemocratic, cleptocracy and business club that has been hijacked primarily by French and German business Interests.
And now they want to anoint a Napoleon and give him the power to wage wars!
We never needed your help in the first place! And when Ireland/UK do leave the EU the first casualty will be Spain. 80% of the fish taken from Irish coastal waters go to Spanish and French Fishermen - worth 3bn per year - We want our coastal waters back! Whilst we are at it maybe British and Irish villa owners should start to sell their spanish holiday homes - watch what happens to Spain then! Ireland has received 40bn from EU since 73 - less than we would have made from 80% less fish!
Jesus, you "New World Order" idiots r driving normal people crazy already. You r worse than H fuel supporters.
For Irish, dont bullshit rest of europe using your referendum as "real democracy", "real freedom", yeah right .. when only 50% voted in referendum. what about other 50%, a? Yes, they dont CARE. They r happy as it is! Why they dont care? Well, becouse the Irish economy is striving! Why it is doing so well? Becouse of the "NEW WORLD ORDER" - EU!
Well ago525 many people in Ireland and Britain would love to leave the EU - I hope we do - and when Russian troops come pouring over your borders again you can rely on Germany France and Italy to save you (good luck with that!). For your information Irelands prosperity has very little to do with EU - 90% of EU funds go to make sure that our farmers don't farm and our fishemen don't fish. We now import 80% of our food! You want to be part of a EU command economy (soviet style!)then go right ahead
Just a couple of points Ago525,In a democracy the only votes that matter are the votes that were cast - i.e. you cannot make any inference from those who choose not to vote, as to what their intentions were-those are the rules of democracy! Also you suggest that inflation would kill the Irish economy if we left the EU-Well looking at Norway, Switzerland, Iceland etc - they have all survived quite well without the EU - Ireland in charge of its own fate seems to me 2 be quite appealing way to go!
You have no idea what modern Western democratic practice is...that there is a difference in direct democracy... and you appear to be opposed to Western democratic practice of parliamentary democracy.
You also wish that parliaments be abolished and have "The People" vote on all laws and government legislation in referendums?
Sometimes it is much better to have elected parliaments decide for "The People!"
If I get into a taxi I expect the following: to be taken to a place of my choosing in a reasonable time. what i do not expect is for the taxi driver to take me to timbuctoo because he thinks it is in my best interest. When we choose parliamentarians to take care of the day to day details of competently running our country we don't expect or mandate them to hand over all of that responsibility to an undemocratic foreign body which is why we had to have a referendum and why we said NO! understand?
The Lisbon Treaty does do such a thing - and the European Union has more democracy than any other regional organization.
The European Union, unlike American federalism, has recognized the need to expand democratic reach and is expanding democracy. However, "referendums-only" and not the solution. Do you know that there is a citizens' initiative in the Lisbon Treaty?
The Lisbon Treaty creates a single european state with its own flag, president, army and legal mandate. It passes into law the supremacy of the EU over all areas and States and the 'vetoes' offered to the individual states over certain policy ares can be withdrawn by qualified majority voting-in case you don't get it all executive power will be invested in a 26 member commission-which means that just 15 unelected people will decide the fate of 500 million people - how the fuck is that democracy?
"The commissioners are appointed by the Member States and elected with super qualified majority at a summit with the Prime Ministers. They are chosen for their general competence, and should all guarantee their independence. They have all held political positions in their countries of origin, often as ministers."
The process of election is, as you can see, very democratic.
If that is your idea of very democratic then you are have to be French! If I wanted to hijack the EU for my own interests then I can't think of a more perfectly undemocratic system of choosing a commission - except I would fill all positions with members who had less than perfect expenses records or shady pasts- and If they didn't vote the way they were ordered to then they could be threatened with exposure and scandal - oh wait a minute - that's how they choose the commission already!
"The Commission is appointed by a super qualified majority by 20 of 27 Prime Ministers in the European Council and approved by a simple majority in the European Parliament. The Commission can be sacked by a two-thirds majority of the Parliament."
How can you "hijack" the commission? The commission is, as you can read, appointed by the prime ministers (Elected through direct democracy) of the EU member nations.
mmmmm... let me think - how would it be possible to gain influence over 26 individuals and thus hijack the commission?... well there's always cocaine and hookers, or maybe directorship of EADS or Thomson SA, or maybe GDF or EDF, or maybe a seat on the board of Elf/Total/Fina.
The current commission contains amongst others 8 convicted fraudsters-Ireland's Commissioner Mcreevy is now a much wealthier man than when he was just finance minister. 26 men are v easy to hijack-and everybody knows it
Wow. You're nothing but a silly conspiracy theorist. Could it be that Commissioner McReevy is wealthier because his wage is higher in the important position as commissioner? Oh no, it must be corruption!
yes you are absolutely right i'm just a silly conspiracy theorist-the commission isn't corrupt - the Audited accounts for the commission clearly show that everything is in order - oh wait a minute - according to the BBC - the european court of Audit has failed to sign off the commissions accounts for the 13th year in a row And there seems to be a nasty trend for Auditors who try to do their job properly getting sacked... oh look-the commission has just voted itself a new 200m train to strasborg
Most of the old Soviet Union had representative democracy (you socialists must really miss that) Ireland however has a constitutional democracy- which does not confer upon the elected representatives the consent to permanently surrender sovereignty without a referendum!
Oh and Prime ministers are not elected through direct democracy - they are chosen by internal party elections!
Civilians vote on the party which represents their views. The party elects its leader by his principles and goals and whether they match with the principles and goals of the party. If you vote on a pro-EU party, then you expect a pro-EU government via the prime minister, just as if you had voted on a conservative nationalistic party. A prime minister is elected "indirectly" with direct democracy.
Oh and good job on with Straw Man argument ("socialism blah"). Way to go with the logical fallacy.
yeah like Gordon Brown was elected on his principles and goals?? With Tony Blair as PM your threadbare argument almost stood up - but I seem to recall he promised a referndum to the british public - by your logic a democratic gov can lie to the electorate at election time and then do as they please!
And your enthusiasm for the EU is even more surprising considering you are from the states - ever read anything by Thomas Jefferson? 'commerce and trade with all nations-binding treaties with NONE. Ever read anything by Adam Smith -hint- wealth of nations or were you too busy reading Marx and Engels for your PHd?
The EU is a Centrist, Statist & almost Command Economy. the EU Common Ag.Policy has distorted the world economy to the detriment of 3rd world agriculture so much more than u could know
The Lisbon Treaty maintains the EU Commission's exclusive right of initative, but within the areas of justice and home affairs and foreign policy, other rules apply: According to the Lisbon Treaty, a group consisting of 25% of the member states can also propose a law. In foreign policy, it is proposed that majority voting rules are used when the EU's High Representative - who is also the Vice-President of the EU Commission - makes a proposal at the specific request of the European Council.
as if we couldn't petition now. Oh dear the EU masters have gracefully allowed us the 'right' to petition them... wow how democratic of them. Truth is, the EU = neo-feudalism
What an arsehole. He had to mention 'climate change' didn't he! These people are so transparent, so full of shit it makes me want to vomit.
The Nazis are back, people. This is part of an even bigger agenda. A new world order with the UN (as it is currently officially called) at the top. The Americas are also forming their own union (much like the EU but 20 years behind) and eventually we will have one world government. That is the end game, I believe.
barosso said he respects the irish vote but yet he still wants 2 continue to ratify the treaty!!! they will take yes as a yes but no as a no!!! im damn proud 2 b irish and proud the irish stood up 2 the Eu and voted no on the treaty!!! he also said the treaty is for better efficiency and better decision making!! i have 2 say that thats all im hearing about why we should vote yes!! the treaty is a bloody joke!!
Nobody will ever be able to convince me that a referendum to which 40% of the population participated is more democratic than a parlamentary ratification where competent people elected by the people vote.
One has to say that shit about 'respecting' the vote of the people.... but... but... no one respects the IRISH vote because no one ever respected the Irish, least of all their religious -- and without their religious, the Irish are just another gang of mediaeval black-and-tans who beat the shit out of the Gaelic Pagans for the pope... that's alll!
To demand Europe-wide referendum as "proof of democracy" is what those that want to "vote away" the EU want. We should be glad that Brown and others have stated that a Europe-wide referendum would be "crackpot." People would vote "yes" and "no" for different reasons - which means Europe cannot do anything.
The "democratic deficit" has many solutions other than just crackpot referendums as "democracy."
Yes you are right EUamerican - the people cannot be trusted to vote for the 'right' thing - they are simply too stupid to understand the complexities of government- Let's do away with democracy as soon as possible - Then the intelligensia like you and the other self appointed deluded lefties can start to build the perfect society with perfect rules!
( By the way that's been tried before quite a few times and always ended in totalitarianism). Who the fuck are you to say the voters don't count!
The whole notion that "The People" are of one mind and are highly informed on EVERYTHING is actually a very communist thing to believe in. "The People" are of various views and constitutencies. So, America's founding fathers were also "deluded lefties?"
I also never said that "voters don't count." They certainly do in parliamentary and presidential elections and LOCAL referendums. Again, referendums are not the only form of "democracy."
For a so called intellectual elite of europe, these guys are all fucking stupid. Oh yeah we can get the EU if we lie and force it upon people. Then when we reject it because of that they resort to more devious means to force it upon us. Therfore turning us more against it. I hate these bastards
Lisbon Treaty as explained by it's chief architect,
"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly . .. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way." QUOTE by chief architect of Lisbon Treaty, Valéry Giscard d'Est
former French President
-Le Monde, June 14, 2007
The EU is proving to the whole World it is a DEMOCRATIC TRAVESTY! With no regard for the will of the people.
At least in Europe, the need for more democracy and transparency is something that has been identified - and there is growing democratic deficit in the United States.
If you're an American: Have you every met, in person, your member of Congress?
how do thease people sleep at night??..ive watched the historical interview with arron russo..zeithgeist...loose change.. the lisbon treaty was a stepping stone to a one world government..it feels here in Ireland since the no vote to the treaty as though the country has come to a halt..its like what now? what next?...our government assume that we voted no largely because we didnt know what it was about...they cant seem to accept that we said no because it was bad for Ireland..and bad for europe
This whole situation seems odd to me. I am just American but I did my midterm project in Int.-Rel. class on the forming of the EU. And it seems to me that the goal has always been to create a federal system in Europe. Perhaps I'm wrong on that???
It seems perilous to create a Federalist system with unelected leader in control of the central government.
This should be a lesson to all the people of Europe that these people will not take no for an answer. All 27 countries had to ratify this treaty or it was dead, they were the rules. Now he's back peddling on this agreement. That says a lot about what these people think about the democratic process.
Fuk this lesbian treaty , that fuking jew the president of EU is fuking controlong our laws that meens us . Did you ever heard about 1 litle book about jewish cospiracy ? Read that , and you will find out that all jews already taking over the world . EU will be world government , Here you are , jews again . They want to make money from every Irish person . They dont ask us do we want this lesbo treaty , the force us in a friendly way . You c , jews never fight , they go arount the mountain .
can you imagine what this corrupted EU oligarchy can decide in the field of OGM and agriculture, given that it is under the influence of criminal multinationals like Monsanto??
watch teh video: "the world according to Monsanto".
you will understand why we Europeans have absolutely to stop this kind of EU.
The blatant arrogance of it. We voted NO. You can't just change the rules after the game and claim you've won.
If this goes through in Europe there should be wide scale civil disobedience by the citizens of every country. Peaceful protests or petrol bombs, somehow these fuckers should be put in their place.
Europe cannot allow them to bypass a lawful, democratic vote.
Bush the prick over here last Friday, hoping he'd be meeting the new Europe gang. What a bunch of fuckers that'd have been.
Non nei ne na nao nej neen jo ochi nein NO!
arthur1411 1 year ago
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*NO SIDE: Shinners, Ganley, Socialists, Coir, Eirigi, UKIP, Le Pen, BNP.
*YES SIDE: all international chambers of commerce, most independent economists, 3 main political parties, IFA, IBEC, IDA, ISME, SIPTU, ICTU, most major trade unions, Small Firms Association, Pfizer, Ryanair, Intel, Microsoft.
Who you going to trust?
urfadder 2 years ago
PLEASE VOTE NO
TANKS FROM ITALY
4iwishyouwerehere 2 years ago
NO vote = we are still in the EU, like we are now, and the EU must be more accountable to the people of Europe. It stops the runaway power of the EU parliament and its gravy train expenses.
YES vote = no way back, we can't undo mistakes made in the treaty or the EU, our say in EU is halved. Some countries say is doubled.
The mature thing is to stand up and tell EU to correct the problems, not to give in to the accusing tut-tutting of EU politicians trying to tell us we should be embarrassed.
EuropesHope 2 years ago
Dia dhaoibh,
Mia an t-ainm atá orm. Is as an nGearmáin mé.
PLEASE VOTE NO AGAIN Bí dílis duit féin
We havent got this chance and hope you will save
our countries, our freedom and our democracy =(
Beir bua agus beannacht
NoHoeArmy 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
NO SIDE: Shinners, Ganley, Socialists, Coir, Eirigi, UKIP, Le Pen, BNP.
YES SIDE: all international chambers of commerce, most independent economists, 3 main political parties, IFA, IBEC, SIPTU, ICTU, most major trade unions, Pfizer, Ryanair, Intel, Microsoft.
Who you going to trust?
urfadder 2 years ago
God, he says that the irish vote didn't solve the problems the treaty is meant to tackle.. liek maybe that pesky right we have to tell you to fuck off? apart from fixing that what else is that treaty supposed to fix? So sick of this vague bullshit excuse
robbieraptor 2 years ago
He has the cold dead eyes of a killer.. there i said it
robbieraptor 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
NO SIDE: Shinners, Ganley, Socialists, Coir, Eirigi, UKIP, Le Pen, BNP.
YES SIDE: all international chambers of commerce, 3 main political parties, IFA, IBEC, SIPTU, ICTU, most major trade unions, Ryanair, Intel, Microsoft.
Who you going to trust?
urfadder 2 years ago
Decent,democratic,law-abiding people all over Europe are praying that the brave Irish vote NO again to this MADNESS !
We too want to keep our constitutions and parliamentary democracies ! We too want to keep our health systems,legal systems,school systems,own police and military.
Ireland PLEASE say NO again to the 2nd Lisbon PUTSCH attempt ! For yourselves,for your children and for the millions of us denied a say by a tiny un-elected "elite" in Brussels.
Greetings from still free Germany.
Spenner56 2 years ago
gilb777 stick it up your ass
bigiejohnboy 2 years ago
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º°¨ ¸„ø¤º°¨„ø¤º°¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ º¤ø„¸
¨°º¤ø„ ¸ How about a world º¤ø„¸
¨°º¤ø„ ¸ without money º¤ø„¸
¨°º¤ø„ ¸ Governments, courts º¤ø„¸ ¨°º¤ø„ ¸ religions and armies? º¤ø„¸
¸„ø¤º°¨¸„ø¤º „¸¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ ¸„ø¤º „¸¨°From Portugal
FreedomForMankind 2 years ago
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NOW WE WANT TO KNOW THE EU EXPENSES!!!
The accounts of the EU have NEVER been signed off by accountants because even THEY do not believe them!!
How can we vote for the EU when they vote to keep their expenses secret!!
PORK BELLY POLITICS. We the people count for nothing. we are simply the proletariat.
MORE PLEBS PLEASE!
Judep22 2 years ago
what a wanker barroso is respect the outcome of this referendum NOT U FUCKING CUNT ILL VOTE NO AGAIN NO IS NO !
kingcock69 2 years ago
Thank You,
Falsare 2 years ago
If you respected their NO decision you dimwit you would of not asked them to vote on a second referendum later this year.
ZeusZol0 2 years ago
A No Vote means No! Is this too difficult for you arrogant asses to understand?
Radicals888 2 years ago
But this vote doesn't only concern Ireland. It affects the rest of Europe.
sugarbabe06 2 years ago
one reason more to vote no, the irish will vote also for me not being from ireland, please vote No and rescue Europe from this political class and rescue democracy.
johapol 2 years ago
Comment removed
Spenner56 3 years ago
On behalf of all European TAXPAYERS,...I hope that the thousands of European Union employees had a wonderful Christmas (at our expense), as you do each year.
We also hope that the 45 MILLION Euros travel expenses paid to you ( by the un-elected Council of Europe)...was enough ! Don´t bother with reciepts and if you need more next year,don't hesitate NOT to ask us. !
Happy undemocratic New Year !
VOTE in the June European elections for anyone willing to fight EU corruption.
Spenner56 3 years ago
the british empire must have a say!
Gilb777 3 years ago
Excuse me for asking but..is this the same José Barroso who holidayed on Spiro Latsis' yacht only one month before the Greek shipping billionare was approved 10.3 MILLION Euros by Barroso's (un-elected) Council of Europe ?
P.S. As the Irish "no" vote was larger than Obama's "yes" vote,.. perhaps Mr Barosso should ask the American electorate to vote again !
Check out Open Europe/eutruth/Libertas and VOTE in the coming European elections !
Happy DEMOCRATIC New Year !
Spenner56 3 years ago
The Irish are selling their soul to the Americans.
Gilb777 3 years ago
The arrogance of this man! The Irish people did the world a favour by voting NO. The EU need to understand that No means No.
FuroraCeltica 3 years ago
"We respect the outcome of this referendum"??????
Yea right.
TroyaE117 3 years ago 3
It's great to see the EU fascists squirm~
hydra8888 3 years ago
Vote out the Parlaments!
hydra8888 3 years ago
Mr cowen believes the treaty is not dead ,
Then Mr Cowen is a fascist !!!
Irish people vote NO to lisbon 2
oliversinhell 3 years ago
just wondering
exactly what is it that makes him and the treaty fascist?
can you actually prove its fascist?
Gavlefilms 3 years ago
To Gavlefims
Article 48 of the Lisbon treaty regarding self ammending acts Mirror the nazi parties 1933 enabling acts. And if you ask a nation to vote yes or no to somthing and they give you a resounding No , and then you tell them try that again, Thats not democracy thats facism. Barroso suporting that makes him a fascist in my book but dont worry he's got plenty of company Like Shultz,De rossa,Mitchell etc etc
martinbyrne68 2 years ago 3
Greg260146 3 years ago
No means No
End of, No more
donegal2 3 years ago
Great to be able to hear some of the interpretations too.
smoc84 3 years ago
I won't waste my time discussing this with you anymore, scraggymess. You're completely out of reach, and you're so close-minded that nothing will penetrate your barrier of ignorance.
EU will continue growing stronger, and Ireland will continue being a member.
EU will prevail and so will the Lisbon Treaty.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Hahahahahah The Lisbon treaty is going NOWHERE - just like your stealth empire project - And we know where you sneaky French aparachniks are planning on taking the EU and we the Irish public want nothing to do with it! reading the shit you posted made me realise what a low grade enemy the EU is becoming to the people of Europe - I'm going to join Libertas and do whatever I can to make sure we don't lose our democracy to you and your fucked up EU dictatorship -
scraggymess 3 years ago
Hey, maybe you should look up the definitions of advanced (for you) words such as "dicatorship" and "democracy", because you clearly have no idea what they mean.
Oh and the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty is going quite excellent in the UK.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
You very clearly have not the slightest Idea what Democracy is - The British public are fully aware of the Fraud that was committed by brown and his washed up left wing gov. The action of the EU has made the likelihood of UK completely leaving the EU much more likely! Blair promised the public a referendum and Brown signed without public consent - Brown is unelected and is about to be sacked - Cameron has promised to repeal all of Brown's decisions regarding Europe. You lose!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Type in - French military victories - to google and hit 'i'm feeling lucky'
Hahahahahahahahahah
scraggymess 3 years ago
Irish Ministers have been talking for weeks about trying to ratify Lisbon without another refendum and without public consent - the Highest Legal authority in the country the attorney general has said this would be illegal! - I dont know which propaganda press reports you are getting over there in France but ALL the press over here know that Lisbon would be defeated by an even higher majority if it was put to a referendum again!
scraggymess 3 years ago
I have tried to post the links for Mccreevy but they keep dissappearing! type in - EU control of taxation Mccreevy - to google and the first returned result is where I got my information from independent . the 4th result has a fuller text
scraggymess 3 years ago
Thomas Jefferson - 'Trade and Commerce with all nations - binding treaties with none' Ireland as the Largest US military base on the edge of Europe - got a nice ring to it? It's gonna happen! 63% of Ireland's current trade is with the US and UK- we can afford to become the largest Tax haven on the continent of Europe - Any European businesses sick of EU regulation can come and be free! We have the potential to become socialist France's worst nightmare! When we leave we will have a huge party!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Haha. You're nothing but an idealist with no sense of reality. I'm glad the majority isn't like you.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
You are the idealist - I'm the pragmatist! I want Ireland to be governed by Ireland - we have nothing in common with Europe! every one of our morals and instincts are at odds with Europe- we are free market capitalists and you are command economy socialists - while you are union appeasing/carbon taxing yourselves out of existence - we will be pissing ourselves laughing along with every other economy in the world.
scraggymess 3 years ago
me surrendered?
mmmm let me see - I said the EU wanted to take control of taxation and was backed up by a senior commissioner - your response was I must have got the quote from somewhere or other...
you said that the EU was democratically trustworthy and I proved it wasn't - by giving examples of its outrageously undemocratic behaviour, and your other point that there was nothing for Ireland to worry about by signing up to Lisbon as the opt outs were final - I proved that was crap - You lose!
scraggymess 3 years ago
#1: The quote from the Commissioner McReevy is not worthy of trust as you got it from a 'very' PoV'd site.
#2: Where did you prove it wasn't democratically trustworthy? You showed absolutely no evidence at all, only lunatic conspiracy theories.
#3: I don't get your last point. What opt outs are you talking about? The ones in the Nice Treaty? That hardly has anything to do with the Lisbon Treaty, other than Ireland is ensured military neutrality, unless it changes its mind.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
#1 quote from Irish independent newspaper - I can't post link because youtube won't allow - very easy to find - and He certainly said it!
2#Nice and Lisbon are the same treaty! Nice was democratically rejected. Lisbon was rejected! EU pressing ahaead anyway = dictatorship!
3# The most important opt out for the irish electorate was the promise from the EU that Ireland would be free to set our own tax rates - Valery Giscard d'estaing says 'opt outs are not worth the paper they were written on'.
scraggymess 3 years ago
Do a search on google for French Military victories and you'll understand why nobody wants to join you with your unworkable EU defence plans!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Nice argument!
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Yes I know - I accept your surrender
scraggymess 3 years ago
Me? If anyone surrendered here, it was you.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
According to Charlie McCreevy "The long term hidden agenda" is for a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base (CCCTB) to enable the Commission to take control of taxation, first by making it optional. When this proves unworkable, the Commission could take control of taxation and smaller countries in particular would no longer be able, or have the incentive, to manage effectively their public finance or direct foreign investment. (Irish Independent Newspaper, 12 May 2007) FROM THE HEART OF THE EU!
scraggymess 3 years ago
That's nice. Getting your arguments against the Lisbon Treaty from euinfo is like getting your arguments against science from answersingenesis.
Also, I wonder why that site is the only site on the internet to carry the quote? Hmm.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Nice try - I've never even heard of EUinfo - I'll be sure to look it up! I got the qupote from the Irish Independent Newspaper - FFS I even gave you the date! The quote is on hundreds of sites! Either you are an extremely naive in not being able to see how necessary it is for an emerging empire to take control of taxation or you're a fully paid up EU aparachnik (and if you're French then you prob spent years in Bercy )- with a vested interest in keeping the true nature of Lisbon hidden
scraggymess 3 years ago
Wow. Thank you bringing this discussion down to a new level. Do a search anywhere (Google) on the internet, and you'll that EUinfo is the only site that has that exact quote (With supplied date) on it.
You're horrible at lying. I guess this is what you can expect from most Eurosceptics.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Also -> ""NO" campaigners have been forecasting the end of Irish neutrality for 36 years: they have always been wrong and still are."
Now, what arguments do you NO-voters have left, other than your fear of losing your national and cultural identity?
SmileyMan 3 years ago
"European Army" continued ->> "While we have and will continue to participate in peace keeping missions we do so on a case by case basis and subject to our Triple Lock principle - requiring the support of Government, Parliament and a United Nations mandate."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
"We will be Forced to join a European Army"
--> "This is untrue. The new arrangements for cooperation in the areas of security and defence fully respect the neutral position of Ireland and other Member States. Ireland will not be subject to a mutual defence clause. European military activity is directed at peacekeeping and crisis intervention. Participation is at the option of each Member State, not obligatory." Continued ->
SmileyMan 3 years ago
"Other Countries are not having Referenda, so we should Vote No"
-> "We do not get to tell other countries, other nations, how they go about ratifying Treaties, whether they are EU Treaties or any other international Treaty. Even the most committed federalist would agree that how other countries decide on whether they sign up or not cannot be dictated by Brussels or by any other member state. No member state gets to tell any other member state what means they should use for ratification."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
On tax continued ->>: "A Commission proposal for a "Common Co-ordinated Corporation Tax Base" is under discussion. The objective of this is to provide that, for the purposes of taxation, all Member States would use a common system of defining the tax base, but not the rates of tax. A number of Member States, including Ireland, have already made it clear that they will not agree to this. This proposal will not succeed."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
What do you mean this proposal will not succeed? - A number of member states including Ireland voted No to Nice/Lisbon - what happened? they went ahead anyway - shove your 'democratic reassurances' up your arse. The recent behaviour of the EU (and apologists like you) has blown any semblance of democratic credibility out of the water- Time to leave - And we'll have our territorial waters back when we do leave - mmm- I think maybe an Atlantic Alliance is looking likely - Maybe US Naval Bases too!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Wrong. Get your facts straight: "The Irish government, having obtained the Seville Declaration on Ireland's policy of military neutrality from the European Council, decided to have another referendum on the Treaty of Nice on Saturday, 19 October 2002. Two significant qualifications were included in the second proposed amendment, one requiring the consent of the Dáil for enhanced cooperation under the treaty, and another preventing Ireland from joining any EU common defence policy."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
You misunderstood my point- I WANT US Naval bases here - we'll need them to protect our coastal waters from french overfishing! - Irish Neutrality is a joke - the Russians are just about to invade Ukraine - who do you think we will run to when the shit hits the fan? France? not bloody likely-We have everything in common with the free market English speaking world and almost nothing in common with communist French led Europe with delusions of grandeur! La Gloire de France? absolutement non merci!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Haha. Oh my god. You're completely out of reach. Not only do you have an irrational hate towards the french, but you actually think Russia will attack Ukraine. It is not only the 2nd. largest military power in Europe, it also a member of the PfP NATO program. The EU and NATO will not let Russia invade Ukraine as it did in Georgia, and Russia knows this.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Russia will do whatever the Fuck it wants - Superpowers always do! Eastern Half of Ukraine used to be Russian and Russia will not allow Ukraine to tell it what to do with Sebastapol.
But yeah -with Napoleon Sarkozy on the Ukrainian side the Russians will be too scared to protect their own people and interests! NOT!!!!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Yeah, okay. I'll just stop discussing Russia with you, as you have no sense of reality at all.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
On tax (continued): This is simply untrue. Ireland's veto on tax harmonisation is a sound legal instrument that cannot be lost unless our Government were to take a considered decision to do away with it. This is unlikely.
Continued ->>
SmileyMan 3 years ago
On taxes: "This Treaty clarifies what areas the EU can legislate on, and tax is not one of them. Ireland retains control of its own tax policy and its own tax rates.
Under the new Treaty we will retain our veto on an EU-wide tax. There is no reference in the Treaty to a common tax policy whatsoever. The No side are deliberately misleading the public, alleging that the Reform Treaty will undermine our corporate tax rate of 12.5%."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Also, according to the newest poll conducted 7 June 2008, 42% of the Irish are in favour of the Treaty, while 39% are against and 19% undecided (Most of them will most likely vote YES once the EU initiates its very much needed educational plan about the Lisbon Treaty in Ireland.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
According to polls, 22% (!!) of the NO-voters "Because I do not know enough about the Treaty and would not want to vote for something I am not familiar with", 6% voted NO because they wanted to keep their commissioner (??), which is a flawed reason as the commissioner doesn't represents his nationality. 5% voted no because they were against a unified Europe, which is totally irrelevant when voting for a treaty. Adding the smaller invalid reasons, you get 35% invalid votes from the NO-side.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
"What all these things taken individually point to is a rather impoverished cultural and intellectual society, a society not at all informed in the proper areas and sadly if curiously lacking in the hard questions when it comes to the nub of secular politics. Who, for example, is Declan Ganley? What are his American interests? Why should being a 'good Catholic' require mention if not to cover a trail that might open up greater questions? And why spend over a million Euros on saying 'No'?"
SmileyMan 3 years ago
"There was the amplified fear of Ireland being dragged into war on Europe's behalf, even though the US, flying out of Galway, had beenengaged in an illegal war for years - a fact which people temporarily forgot. Then there was the sexual promiscuity - fear , even though no one dared mention 'clerical pedophilia', the damages arising from which the Irish taxpayer rejoiced in paying. But this also was never mentioned due to a temporary loss of memory."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Neutrality is a red herring - nobody I know thinks neutrality or any other spurious excuses that you apologists like to blame for the thwarting of your ambitions. here is the reason- WE LIKE BEING IN CONTROL OF OUR OWN DESTINY!- just like New Zealand,Australia,Iceland,Norway,Switzerland and all the others that I could mention - we will survive and thrive outside the EU. We will watch from the outside and laugh as you regulate and legislate yourselves in oblivion!
scraggymess 3 years ago
I wonder if you would have the same opinion if EU hadn't stepped in and saved your economy? You were in control of your own destiny before that, and it didn't look like it was going very well.
Switzerland thrives on its financial industry, and it would never be able to become a part of EU because of the principles the Swiss have regarding banking.
Norway thrives off the diminishing. Denmark has the strongest economy in Scandinavia and is a part of EU.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Norway thrives on its diminishing natural ressources.*
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Ireland is a low tax and low regulation free market economy -just like USA, Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia- WE have nothing in common with the French ambitions for the EU. 90% of EU funding goes on CAP payments to make sure that our farmers don't farm! we Import 80% of our food!! we import 90% of our yoghurt from Germany - you couldn't make this shit up! We are a tiny country and will adapt to whatever comes our way - thanks for the 40bn but bye bye!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Ignorance of the Irish: "The matter is complicated by the fact that there is scant evidence of Irish concerns, which are a factual part of the Lisbon Treaty or could be assuaged by palliative measures. There are few legal instruments available to dispel disenchantment, myths or various individual worries, especially when many of them are outside the scope of the treaty (or any conceivable replacement)."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
There's a change to the standing requirements in Article 230 §4 for individuals to challenge acts of the institutions. First, any act will be open to challenge if it addressed to the plaintiff, not just decisions. If the act is not addressed to her, the plaintiff must show that the act is of direct and individual concern. Second, in the case of a regulatory act, the plaintiff must show that the regulatory act is of direct concern and that the act does not entail implementing measures.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
"The new Treaty also reinforces participatory democracy. It allows interested parties be consulted and that a dialogue be maintained with civil society and representative organisations. It requires that the work of the institutions be transparent and in particular that the activities of the Council and the European Parliament be public when they legislate." Wow. Don't you like this?
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Wow -don't I like this??? are you for fucking real? Which bit of we don't want to be ruled by Brussels do you not get? Which bit of this far and no further -do you not understand? Which bit of the French NO the Dutch NO the Irish NO and the upcoming British NO can you not get into your naive head?
We said NO Just like the vast majority of the european electorate would have voted if they hadn't been robbed and swindled of their say- You and the other apologists for Lisbon are arrogant crooks!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Wait wait wait. Current polls show that the "Yes to Lisbon Treaty" group is a quite big majority in Ireland now.
"Robbed and swindled of their say"? What is this? It happens in accordance with the law. Don't like the law? Complain to your local politician.
Oh and: "In the event, the decision of the court is itself clear. We have found nothing in the claimant's case to cast doubt on the lawfulness of ratifying the Lisbon Treaty without a referendum."
Britain won't be having a referendum. :)
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Dream on - there is no legal basis for a second referendum - unlike the first Nice referendum the turnout was high enough for the result to stand - any attempt to rerun the referendum will result in a legal challenge which will take years! We wouldn't be having a second referendum if the result was Yes! 80%+ of the British public do not want further integration with Europe - the next UK gov will do what is necessary to undo the Fraud committed under Brown
scraggymess 3 years ago
#1: A second referendum, or #2: Ireland is left behind in its own piss and shit.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Yes Please! Can we have that in writing? yEEhaa
scraggymess 3 years ago
The plan for a new vote in Ireland, being discussed by some ministers in Dublin, will be greeted with outrage by opponents of the treaty in Britain.
Irish ministers say they might be able to rescue the treaty if they can secure concessions from Europe to placate voters on a list of issues.
"A yes vote can be achieved if the Irish people are offered guarantees on issues like defence and taxation," said one Irish official.
"The no campaign will be picked off one by one. Everyone has a price."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Irish ministers can believe what they want to - any attempt to have a second refendum will be met with multiple legal challenges and will spend years in court! - long enough for Britain to piss on your Parade and completely kill off your grand project! Or if you want a two speed Europe please count Britain and Us out! It's the Yes campaign that is being picked off one by one, most of my friends and family that stupidly voted yes say they will vote no next time!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Vote no for what reason? Because they don't want another referendum? That's an invalid reason.
It's sad that there there are so many stupid people.
Oh and I think Irish ministers have a bit more experience and knowledge in and about politics than you, so you can't preach as much as you want, it's not going to change anything.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
you really are a fucking retard! the Irish public will vote NO to Lisbon again if the proposal is put to them again!
That is a really simple sentence and a really simple concept - which bit of that do you not understand!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Irish ministers thought that Ireland would vote yes to Lisbon and they were sooooooooooooooo fucking wrong - but hey - you hang onto whatever crumbs of comfort you have to - but know one thing - Lisbon will not be ratified by Ireland!
You Lose!
Oh and another thing - Libertas and ukip will be fielding hundreds of candidates at the next elections - and because of your (EU)behaviour they are going to win every seat - when they do - 1st item on agenda remove the Lisbon Treaty!
scraggymess 3 years ago
You arrogant Euro imperialist fuck! Are you telling us what to do? The only piss and shit that will be left behind will be the piss and shit that masquerades as democracy in your failed empire! Ireland without the EU will become a shining light for the rest of Europe. When the eastern european nations realise they have become prisoners in your grand scheme they will wish they had Ireland's independence - Fuck you -fuck your ultimatums -and fuck the greedy power stealing EU
scraggymess 3 years ago
Continued: The legislating institutions may then decide (by 55% of the members of the Council or by a majority of the European Parliament) whether or not to continue with the legislative procedure.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Lisbon Treaty: "If the legislative proposal is challenged by a simple majority of the votes allocated to national parliaments and if the Commission decides to maintain its proposal regardless, a special procedure comes into play. The Commission will have to issue a reasoned opinion explaining how the principle of subsidiarity is being respected. The Commission's opinion is forwarded to the legislating institutions together with the reasoned opinions of the national parliaments."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
If the Lisbon Treaty is put into effect: "National parliaments are allocated votes : Each national parliament has two votes, shared on the basis of the national system and if the system is a bicameral one, each chamber or house is given one vote. If the reasoned opinion represents at least one third of the votes allocated to national parliaments, the institution that made the proposal must review it and then decide whether to maintain, amend or withdraw it"
SmileyMan 3 years ago
If the Lisbon Treaty is put into effect: "The Protocol on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality is amended to allow closer scrutiny of subsidiarity by national parliaments. Under an early-warning system, any national parliament may, within eight weeks of being sent a legislative proposal, issue a reasoned opinion stating why it considers that the proposal does not comply with the principle of subsidiarity."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Wow lucky national parliaments being allowed to issue a reasoned opinion - which will of course be ignored by Europe!
At the moment the National parliaments are free to do whatever they want to do that is in the National interest - and you wonder why we said No to being a tiny speck in a totalitarian EU- Shove your subsidiarity and proportionality up your corrupt hole!
scraggymess 3 years ago
That's still no reason to vote NO to the Lisbon Treaty. The treaty contained nothing negative at all regarding national sovreignty, it actually made the lines between national responsibility and EU responsibility much more clear and gave the national parliaments a bigger voice in the process of making a law.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
You lying cunt! Lisbon has No negative affect on National sovereignty - you utter twat! That's just like saying Hitler had no negative effect on the Jews.
Get back to your EU desk and do some proper work - whoever authorised your EU pay for this work ought to be fired - won't be of course because missappropriation of EU funds is perfectly legal - isn't it you French Fuck?
scraggymess 3 years ago
Lisbon will give the EU commission every tool they need to take control of all taxation in the EU. That is what Lisbon is all about.
scraggymess 3 years ago
Typical bullshit from a eurosceptical liar. Can you quote the passages in the treaty or quote a summary of it from a trustworthy website? All you have is the words of other eurosceptics.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Article 48, Article 308 (and others) make the treaty completely self-amending in that they enable the European Council to extend the areas in which the EU can legislate and make major changes to the functioning of the Union by majority vote, without the need for a new treaty.
All the commission need to then do to take control of taxation is to create an EU based incorporated business entity- make registration compulsory and hey presto - tax is paid directly to the EU. It's already happening
scraggymess 3 years ago
"The Lisbon Treaty proposes the "Convention-Method" for treaty amendments (Article 48.2 TEU. Member States, the EP and the Commission would be able to initiate amendments. Then, the European Council would decide by simple majority if a Convention should be convened. The Convention would decide "by common accord" whether to adopt or not to adopt these amendments. Amendments adopted by the Convention would then have to be ratified by all member states before entering into force."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
(1) Art.48 (TEU) - also called the "passerelle" clause - will allow moving the legislative bases for the harmonisation/approximation of indirect and direct taxation from unanimity to QMV!
(2) New Art.352 (TFEU) confers upon the Union a general power to attain any of the objectives of the Treaties, among them the objective to ensure 'free and undistorted competition'. '- Opt-outs offered to countries ratifying Lisbon are not worth the paper they are written on' -Valery Giscard d'Estaing
scraggymess 3 years ago
"For tax harmonisation to come into force, all countries will have to vote in favour. So if for example Britain or Luxembourg do not want to have a EU-wide minimum tax on savings and investment, they can stop the tax from going ahead by vetoing the proposal. But once a harmonisation plan is agreed by at least 20 of the member states, there is no chance to opt out anymore."
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Article 48 (TEU) provides for the veto (that Britain was told was guaranteed) to be removed without British consent! As much as they tried to hide this clause - it's still right there!
Lesson: the EU will do whatever it wants and there are in fact no vetos on anything - we aren't stupid. watch the backlash when you try to pass this through without democratic consent
scraggymess 3 years ago
The only reason they want to be able to do this is because creating new treaties is very inefficient and takes a lot of time. It'd make the EU much more efficient if article 48 was put into effect. Isn't that what you Eurosceptics complain about? The EU moving around and wasting a lot of time and money on beaucracy? This is one of the things the Lisbon Treaty tries to stop.
Oh and can you please supply evidence of EU trying to do the thing with taxes?
SmileyMan 3 years ago
According to Charlie McCreevy "The long term hidden agenda" is for a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base (CCCTB) to enable the Commission to take control of taxation, first by making it optional. When this proves unworkable, the Commission could take control of taxation and smaller countries in particular would no longer be able, or have the incentive, to manage effectively their public finance or direct foreign investment. (Irish Independent, 12 May 2007)
scraggymess 3 years ago
Brussels is now proposing a new kind of European company, this time called a European Private Company (Societas Privata Europaea, or SPE). Part of the legislation includes the option of companies electing to choose the EU as their national tax base- with tax paid directly to the EU.
Time for Ireland to leave methinks!
scraggymess 3 years ago
"Aim of the proposal is to remove the current need for limited companies to reincorporate themselves in the corresponding legal form in all the EU member countries in which they want to trade, which currently represents a substantial administrative burden for small and medium enterprises."
Also, I doubt EU would be the one losing if Ireland left, as it's stopping progress right now. Don't forget it was EU that picked Ireland up and boosted its economy (and your sense of arrogance, it seems).
SmileyMan 3 years ago
Barroso: unelected, no mandate, doesn't speak for me
DEATH TO THE UNDEMOCRATIC EU
mark77mr 3 years ago
The EU has somehow changed from a loosely affiliated trading block to an undemocratic, cleptocracy and business club that has been hijacked primarily by French and German business Interests.
And now they want to anoint a Napoleon and give him the power to wage wars!
Give it 10 years and see if i'm wrong
scraggymess 3 years ago
We never needed your help in the first place! And when Ireland/UK do leave the EU the first casualty will be Spain. 80% of the fish taken from Irish coastal waters go to Spanish and French Fishermen - worth 3bn per year - We want our coastal waters back! Whilst we are at it maybe British and Irish villa owners should start to sell their spanish holiday homes - watch what happens to Spain then! Ireland has received 40bn from EU since 73 - less than we would have made from 80% less fish!
scraggymess 3 years ago
barroso looks quite agitated. Perhaps he's extremely pissed but not showing it.
How many languages does he speak?
I don't trust Barroso or any EU bureacrate....liers..trators...fascists!
Consumerofknowledge 3 years ago
in my conutry parlament ratified treaty without referendum and many people dont knows about it much so where is democracy in eu??????
laxeron84 3 years ago
Barroso: The "no vote" didn't solve EUrope's problems so the Lisbon Treaty isn't dead because only one state voted against it.
Common Sense: IT DOESN'T MATTER!!! The Lisbon Treaty could've cured cancer and if the Irish voted no, then its as dead as fried chicken.
idespiseall 3 years ago
LOSERS - EU
01101100d 3 years ago
Fuckwit - YouU
shifty1828 3 years ago
Jesus, you "New World Order" idiots r driving normal people crazy already. You r worse than H fuel supporters.
For Irish, dont bullshit rest of europe using your referendum as "real democracy", "real freedom", yeah right .. when only 50% voted in referendum. what about other 50%, a? Yes, they dont CARE. They r happy as it is! Why they dont care? Well, becouse the Irish economy is striving! Why it is doing so well? Becouse of the "NEW WORLD ORDER" - EU!
AG0525 3 years ago
And dont try to lie to me, that you figured it out "yourselfs", your economy was not better that East EU at the begining of your EU path.
Did you read that "constitution"? I found it very hard, but from the first view it is not that bad.
In short: "DONT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF IDIOTS IN BIG GROUPS" = Ireland/UK.
I think we give them one more chance. If it turns out NO again ... bye bye Ireland/UK.
Then we will see how infliation kills your economy in few years!
AG0525 3 years ago
you leftist arrogant asshole, if you have a problem to respect a vote, go and kill yourself, you stupid fascist!
Opitzka 3 years ago 3
Well ago525 many people in Ireland and Britain would love to leave the EU - I hope we do - and when Russian troops come pouring over your borders again you can rely on Germany France and Italy to save you (good luck with that!). For your information Irelands prosperity has very little to do with EU - 90% of EU funds go to make sure that our farmers don't farm and our fishemen don't fish. We now import 80% of our food! You want to be part of a EU command economy (soviet style!)then go right ahead
scraggymess 3 years ago
Just a couple of points Ago525,In a democracy the only votes that matter are the votes that were cast - i.e. you cannot make any inference from those who choose not to vote, as to what their intentions were-those are the rules of democracy! Also you suggest that inflation would kill the Irish economy if we left the EU-Well looking at Norway, Switzerland, Iceland etc - they have all survived quite well without the EU - Ireland in charge of its own fate seems to me 2 be quite appealing way to go!
scraggymess 3 years ago
You have no idea what modern Western democratic practice is...that there is a difference in direct democracy... and you appear to be opposed to Western democratic practice of parliamentary democracy.
You also wish that parliaments be abolished and have "The People" vote on all laws and government legislation in referendums?
Sometimes it is much better to have elected parliaments decide for "The People!"
Or do you oppose modern Western democracy?
EUamerican 3 years ago
If I get into a taxi I expect the following: to be taken to a place of my choosing in a reasonable time. what i do not expect is for the taxi driver to take me to timbuctoo because he thinks it is in my best interest. When we choose parliamentarians to take care of the day to day details of competently running our country we don't expect or mandate them to hand over all of that responsibility to an undemocratic foreign body which is why we had to have a referendum and why we said NO! understand?
scraggymess 3 years ago
The Lisbon Treaty does do such a thing - and the European Union has more democracy than any other regional organization.
The European Union, unlike American federalism, has recognized the need to expand democratic reach and is expanding democracy. However, "referendums-only" and not the solution. Do you know that there is a citizens' initiative in the Lisbon Treaty?
EUamerican 3 years ago
The Lisbon Treaty creates a single european state with its own flag, president, army and legal mandate. It passes into law the supremacy of the EU over all areas and States and the 'vetoes' offered to the individual states over certain policy ares can be withdrawn by qualified majority voting-in case you don't get it all executive power will be invested in a 26 member commission-which means that just 15 unelected people will decide the fate of 500 million people - how the fuck is that democracy?
scraggymess 3 years ago
"The commissioners are appointed by the Member States and elected with super qualified majority at a summit with the Prime Ministers. They are chosen for their general competence, and should all guarantee their independence. They have all held political positions in their countries of origin, often as ministers."
The process of election is, as you can see, very democratic.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
If that is your idea of very democratic then you are have to be French! If I wanted to hijack the EU for my own interests then I can't think of a more perfectly undemocratic system of choosing a commission - except I would fill all positions with members who had less than perfect expenses records or shady pasts- and If they didn't vote the way they were ordered to then they could be threatened with exposure and scandal - oh wait a minute - that's how they choose the commission already!
scraggymess 3 years ago
It's called representative democracy. Look it up.
"The Commission is appointed by a super qualified majority by 20 of 27 Prime Ministers in the European Council and approved by a simple majority in the European Parliament. The Commission can be sacked by a two-thirds majority of the Parliament."
How can you "hijack" the commission? The commission is, as you can read, appointed by the prime ministers (Elected through direct democracy) of the EU member nations.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
mmmmm... let me think - how would it be possible to gain influence over 26 individuals and thus hijack the commission?... well there's always cocaine and hookers, or maybe directorship of EADS or Thomson SA, or maybe GDF or EDF, or maybe a seat on the board of Elf/Total/Fina.
The current commission contains amongst others 8 convicted fraudsters-Ireland's Commissioner Mcreevy is now a much wealthier man than when he was just finance minister. 26 men are v easy to hijack-and everybody knows it
scraggymess 3 years ago
Wow. You're nothing but a silly conspiracy theorist. Could it be that Commissioner McReevy is wealthier because his wage is higher in the important position as commissioner? Oh no, it must be corruption!
SmileyMan 3 years ago
yes you are absolutely right i'm just a silly conspiracy theorist-the commission isn't corrupt - the Audited accounts for the commission clearly show that everything is in order - oh wait a minute - according to the BBC - the european court of Audit has failed to sign off the commissions accounts for the 13th year in a row And there seems to be a nasty trend for Auditors who try to do their job properly getting sacked... oh look-the commission has just voted itself a new 200m train to strasborg
scraggymess 3 years ago
Most of the old Soviet Union had representative democracy (you socialists must really miss that) Ireland however has a constitutional democracy- which does not confer upon the elected representatives the consent to permanently surrender sovereignty without a referendum!
Oh and Prime ministers are not elected through direct democracy - they are chosen by internal party elections!
scraggymess 3 years ago
Civilians vote on the party which represents their views. The party elects its leader by his principles and goals and whether they match with the principles and goals of the party. If you vote on a pro-EU party, then you expect a pro-EU government via the prime minister, just as if you had voted on a conservative nationalistic party. A prime minister is elected "indirectly" with direct democracy.
Oh and good job on with Straw Man argument ("socialism blah"). Way to go with the logical fallacy.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
yeah like Gordon Brown was elected on his principles and goals?? With Tony Blair as PM your threadbare argument almost stood up - but I seem to recall he promised a referndum to the british public - by your logic a democratic gov can lie to the electorate at election time and then do as they please!
scraggymess 3 years ago
And your enthusiasm for the EU is even more surprising considering you are from the states - ever read anything by Thomas Jefferson? 'commerce and trade with all nations-binding treaties with NONE. Ever read anything by Adam Smith -hint- wealth of nations or were you too busy reading Marx and Engels for your PHd?
The EU is a Centrist, Statist & almost Command Economy. the EU Common Ag.Policy has distorted the world economy to the detriment of 3rd world agriculture so much more than u could know
scraggymess 3 years ago
The Lisbon Treaty maintains the EU Commission's exclusive right of initative, but within the areas of justice and home affairs and foreign policy, other rules apply: According to the Lisbon Treaty, a group consisting of 25% of the member states can also propose a law. In foreign policy, it is proposed that majority voting rules are used when the EU's High Representative - who is also the Vice-President of the EU Commission - makes a proposal at the specific request of the European Council.
SmileyMan 3 years ago
as if we couldn't petition now. Oh dear the EU masters have gracefully allowed us the 'right' to petition them... wow how democratic of them. Truth is, the EU = neo-feudalism
we want our sovereignty back
mark77mr 3 years ago
Yes, you use that name in vain! High five. But you are only going to give yourself a headache.
shifty1828 3 years ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
To take the figures & provide the FACTS
The EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty must by its own LAWS be RATified by all 27 member regions.
So far 19 Nations have surrendered to the RATification
that's 19 countries or 5000 politicians!
France with a population of 64,473,140
Netherlands with a population of 16,428,071
& Ireland with a population of 4,339,000
EACH by a majority voted NO
In Democratic terms 85M to 5,000 AGAINST
The EU has no mandate - is it then a dictatorship?
Greg260146 3 years ago
What an arsehole. He had to mention 'climate change' didn't he! These people are so transparent, so full of shit it makes me want to vomit.
The Nazis are back, people. This is part of an even bigger agenda. A new world order with the UN (as it is currently officially called) at the top. The Americas are also forming their own union (much like the EU but 20 years behind) and eventually we will have one world government. That is the end game, I believe.
numbskullandy 3 years ago
You seem like a bit of a prick.
shifty1828 3 years ago
barosso said he respects the irish vote but yet he still wants 2 continue to ratify the treaty!!! they will take yes as a yes but no as a no!!! im damn proud 2 b irish and proud the irish stood up 2 the Eu and voted no on the treaty!!! he also said the treaty is for better efficiency and better decision making!! i have 2 say that thats all im hearing about why we should vote yes!! the treaty is a bloody joke!!
tippboi1987 3 years ago
Nobody will ever be able to convince me that a referendum to which 40% of the population participated is more democratic than a parlamentary ratification where competent people elected by the people vote.
CaesarAugustus1987 3 years ago
One has to say that shit about 'respecting' the vote of the people.... but... but... no one respects the IRISH vote because no one ever respected the Irish, least of all their religious -- and without their religious, the Irish are just another gang of mediaeval black-and-tans who beat the shit out of the Gaelic Pagans for the pope... that's alll!
sebreathnach 3 years ago
These Puppetdents are all either too stupid or too wicked to be in positions of power
The LIE of TERROR is evidence
The German secret service the MI5 Mossad and CIA have a mission statement To conquer the world for their fascist plans
These clowns are told what to do and if they don't they can be killed or their character assassinated and replaced with a new sycophant to authority
Doesn't anyone read history The Nazi chain of command became the German government after the war
Fascism
SlaveStorm 3 years ago
To demand Europe-wide referendum as "proof of democracy" is what those that want to "vote away" the EU want. We should be glad that Brown and others have stated that a Europe-wide referendum would be "crackpot." People would vote "yes" and "no" for different reasons - which means Europe cannot do anything.
The "democratic deficit" has many solutions other than just crackpot referendums as "democracy."
EUamerican 3 years ago
Yes you are right EUamerican - the people cannot be trusted to vote for the 'right' thing - they are simply too stupid to understand the complexities of government- Let's do away with democracy as soon as possible - Then the intelligensia like you and the other self appointed deluded lefties can start to build the perfect society with perfect rules!
( By the way that's been tried before quite a few times and always ended in totalitarianism). Who the fuck are you to say the voters don't count!
scraggymess 3 years ago
The whole notion that "The People" are of one mind and are highly informed on EVERYTHING is actually a very communist thing to believe in. "The People" are of various views and constitutencies. So, America's founding fathers were also "deluded lefties?"
I also never said that "voters don't count." They certainly do in parliamentary and presidential elections and LOCAL referendums. Again, referendums are not the only form of "democracy."
Get a life and learn about real democracy!
EUamerican 3 years ago
our politicians were not elected so they could give their powers away to the undemocratic EU
you are a traitor and I want to be in charge of your tribunal when we put EU-supporters on trial for treason
my verdict: death by hanging to all traitors
mark77mr 3 years ago
For a so called intellectual elite of europe, these guys are all fucking stupid. Oh yeah we can get the EU if we lie and force it upon people. Then when we reject it because of that they resort to more devious means to force it upon us. Therfore turning us more against it. I hate these bastards
MaNarchicDRAKE 3 years ago
You have set yourselves up above the people, and now the people do not want you.
You are a bunch of federalist dreamers.
TroyaE117 3 years ago
Lisbon Treaty as explained by it's chief architect,
"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly . .. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way." QUOTE by chief architect of Lisbon Treaty, Valéry Giscard d'Est
former French President
-Le Monde, June 14, 2007
The EU is proving to the whole World it is a DEMOCRATIC TRAVESTY! With no regard for the will of the people.
jennyliberty 3 years ago
At least in Europe, the need for more democracy and transparency is something that has been identified - and there is growing democratic deficit in the United States.
If you're an American: Have you every met, in person, your member of Congress?
EUamerican 3 years ago
yes
jnog 3 years ago
hahahaha! im laughing at you right now!! what does our religion have 2 do with the lisbon treaty??? u havent a clue!!
tippboi1987 3 years ago
Thanks Irish people.
but now it is up to all other Europeans to continue their battle.
we cannot tolerate a EU which serves to exclusive interests of financial and economic lobbies.
Europe to Europeans.
rambo753 3 years ago
how do thease people sleep at night??..ive watched the historical interview with arron russo..zeithgeist...loose change.. the lisbon treaty was a stepping stone to a one world government..it feels here in Ireland since the no vote to the treaty as though the country has come to a halt..its like what now? what next?...our government assume that we voted no largely because we didnt know what it was about...they cant seem to accept that we said no because it was bad for Ireland..and bad for europe
actonfarrell 3 years ago
Monsanto is criminal
rambo753 3 years ago
This whole situation seems odd to me. I am just American but I did my midterm project in Int.-Rel. class on the forming of the EU. And it seems to me that the goal has always been to create a federal system in Europe. Perhaps I'm wrong on that???
It seems perilous to create a Federalist system with unelected leader in control of the central government.
I hope everything works out for you over there
GordonofSeattle 3 years ago
It's time for the europeans to rise up again. Take back your freedoms you fought for in the past!
wutru 3 years ago
This should be a lesson to all the people of Europe that these people will not take no for an answer. All 27 countries had to ratify this treaty or it was dead, they were the rules. Now he's back peddling on this agreement. That says a lot about what these people think about the democratic process.
celticlofts 3 years ago
Fuk this lesbian treaty , that fuking jew the president of EU is fuking controlong our laws that meens us . Did you ever heard about 1 litle book about jewish cospiracy ? Read that , and you will find out that all jews already taking over the world . EU will be world government , Here you are , jews again . They want to make money from every Irish person . They dont ask us do we want this lesbo treaty , the force us in a friendly way . You c , jews never fight , they go arount the mountain .
TeamVirility 3 years ago
don't you get it? it's the target of the EU to become one nation ... it is not a "european society" or something anymore, it is a union
GonGel 3 years ago
they are lying.
agfigueroaa 3 years ago 2
3: Ireland, Netherland and France.
agfigueroaa 3 years ago
3 countries voted no.
agfigueroaa 3 years ago
can you imagine what this corrupted EU oligarchy can decide in the field of OGM and agriculture, given that it is under the influence of criminal multinationals like Monsanto??
watch teh video: "the world according to Monsanto".
you will understand why we Europeans have absolutely to stop this kind of EU.
rambo753 3 years ago 2
Monsanto is dangerous
GordonofSeattle 3 years ago
The blatant arrogance of it. We voted NO. You can't just change the rules after the game and claim you've won.
If this goes through in Europe there should be wide scale civil disobedience by the citizens of every country. Peaceful protests or petrol bombs, somehow these fuckers should be put in their place.
Europe cannot allow them to bypass a lawful, democratic vote.
Bush the prick over here last Friday, hoping he'd be meeting the new Europe gang. What a bunch of fuckers that'd have been.
noriordan 3 years ago 4
I believe also my countrymen would vote NO if we only had the chance to express our opinion.
we are tired of these corrupted and antieuropean oligarchies.
rambo753 3 years ago