When Judas Priest wore Levi's... also at 2:47 replace 'that' with 'what' for full comic effect. Anyway it should be 'those who'. This actually one of my favourites from my time as a choirboy :-)
@StrewthMcGinty1 Yes. The original score or performing parts appear in F.
But tuned to what pitch? Don't assume to A440. Gibbons' choir would have tuned to organ pitch, which was based on Renaissance wind pitch, which was at least A465. A465 is about a 1/2 step above A440. So this performance sounds at least a 1/2 step too low.
The Ab transposition in the score shown here was contrived by the editor to accomodate modern mixed voice choirs.
RE, original performance, there are two contexts - the church context, and informal domestic performance. This piece, and many other religious pieces from the time, are found in published books of madrigals - hence the viol parts, which are unlikely to have been used in church performance. And as for tuning a viol, at least one treatise says you should tune the top string until it is about to snap and tune downwards from there! Pitch in the renaissance was, I think, highly relative.
@StrewthMcGinty1 I'm a viol player, quite familiar with the treatise. I just played 6-part Gibbons fantasies yesterday in a viol consort. When Bach performed his church music in Weimar, they tuned to A465 organ pitch (as did Schuetz). Years alter when Bach reused his Weimar cantatas in Leipzig, where A415 chamber pitch was used, he transposed the music up a whole step because the parts were otherwise too low for singers and instruments. The same principle would apply to Gibbons' verse anthems.
@StrewthMcGinty1 Historically, the choice of pitch has been based on the design of wind instruments. Renaissance tuning was based on the design of Renaissance winds. The various Late Baroque chamber pitches were influenced by the design of winds coming from France since the late 17th c. Modern A440 tuning (adopted in the 1950s) was the result of lobbying by American wind manfacturers.
@StrewthMcGinty1 Do you assume that informal domestic performances of Gibbons verse anthems would be pitched lower than church performances? Did you know that viols can be tuned to A465 (Renaissance wind pitch) without breaking the top string? The viols and strings in Bach's famous early cantata BWV 106 tuned to A465 organ pitch.
@1banders No I don't - my point is that I don't think that in the Renaissance they greatly cared about pitch consistency. I'm ignorant as to whether we know the pitch of the organs Gibbons used. My very first comment was simply to clarify that Gibbons didn't write it in four flats as shown in the video.
@StrewthMcGinty1 No one in Gibbons' day wrote more than 2 flats in the key signature. They thought in terms of modes, not keys; the purpose of the flats was to transpose the mode to a "key" suitable for performance at the normally used pitch. The Ab scoring, transposing the original up a minor 3rd, reflects the editor's desire to make the piece fit the voice ranges of a modern mixed voice choir performing at A440. Historic pitches are determined from analysis of historic winds & organ pipes.
@StrewthMcGinty1 If they didn't care greatly about pitch consistency, why are historic winds and organs tuned at about the same pitch? In his "Syntagma Musicum" Michael Praetorious (1571-1621) describes and accounts for the pitches of instruments used in his day. The choice of pitch was not arbitrary. The quote you cite reflects the general lack of clarity, specificity and accuracy of descriptions given in treatises of the time rather than indifference to choice of pitch.
Perhaps one of my all time favorite pieces sung by an awesome choir. THANK YOU! I became aware of it mnay years ago when at a choir festival at our Cathedral in Houston. Our soloist was an amateur but superb. It is now embedded in my being.
The original is in F major. Modern editions often transpose it up a minor 3rd on the mistaken assumption (based on a mis-analysis of the evidence of early organ pipe lengths) that Tudor church was was almost a minor third higher than a'=440. In fact (see Johnstone in Early Music 2003) such evidence shows that English church pitch was about a'=475, about two-thirds of a tone higher than modern concert pitch. This has certain consequences for voice-types.
@livandjazz good ear!-- but actually the edition being shown is transposed up a minor third, the original is on F. Modern editions raise these pieces up so they may be sung by mixed choruses using female altos and sopranos.
I've just studied this piece for my analysis project as part of my undergraduate degree - it's a wonderful piece. @mattmarcucci1 the music is in the original key (F major) but the score in the video is in the modern printed key (as in the English Church Music series books). It is transposed up a minor third today so to allow for a falsettist to sing the solo part, whereas the original asked for a contratenor - as performed in this version.
I'm a Catholic, but nonetheless I love this music. ;)
NihilNominis 2 months ago
Though many of you have pointed out that this is the original pitch, I still like the a-minor version. :)
MrSbunk 6 months ago
@titchinjp Rogers Covey-Crump, to be precise.
molealto 6 months ago
I'd like to get from you the sheet music you post in here.. PLEASE.
SuperGAMMA77 9 months ago
@SuperGAMMA77 cpdl.org is where I get most, fantastic site
morphthing1 9 months ago 2
When Judas Priest wore Levi's... also at 2:47 replace 'that' with 'what' for full comic effect. Anyway it should be 'those who'. This actually one of my favourites from my time as a choirboy :-)
hexonatapeloop 1 year ago
This is one of those pieces that makes me wish I were a male alto.
druidbird 1 year ago
@druidbird surely only when its sung by a male alto. This has been transposed down a minor third from the score in the video, and is sung by a tenor.
titchinjp 1 year ago
@titchinjp Well spotted. And this pitch is Gibbons' written pitch - the piece is in F.
StrewthMcGinty1 1 year ago
@StrewthMcGinty1 Yes. The original score or performing parts appear in F.
But tuned to what pitch? Don't assume to A440. Gibbons' choir would have tuned to organ pitch, which was based on Renaissance wind pitch, which was at least A465. A465 is about a 1/2 step above A440. So this performance sounds at least a 1/2 step too low.
The Ab transposition in the score shown here was contrived by the editor to accomodate modern mixed voice choirs.
1banders 4 months ago
@1banders
RE, original performance, there are two contexts - the church context, and informal domestic performance. This piece, and many other religious pieces from the time, are found in published books of madrigals - hence the viol parts, which are unlikely to have been used in church performance. And as for tuning a viol, at least one treatise says you should tune the top string until it is about to snap and tune downwards from there! Pitch in the renaissance was, I think, highly relative.
StrewthMcGinty1 4 months ago
@StrewthMcGinty1 I'm a viol player, quite familiar with the treatise. I just played 6-part Gibbons fantasies yesterday in a viol consort. When Bach performed his church music in Weimar, they tuned to A465 organ pitch (as did Schuetz). Years alter when Bach reused his Weimar cantatas in Leipzig, where A415 chamber pitch was used, he transposed the music up a whole step because the parts were otherwise too low for singers and instruments. The same principle would apply to Gibbons' verse anthems.
1banders 4 months ago
@StrewthMcGinty1 Historically, the choice of pitch has been based on the design of wind instruments. Renaissance tuning was based on the design of Renaissance winds. The various Late Baroque chamber pitches were influenced by the design of winds coming from France since the late 17th c. Modern A440 tuning (adopted in the 1950s) was the result of lobbying by American wind manfacturers.
1banders 4 months ago
@StrewthMcGinty1 Do you assume that informal domestic performances of Gibbons verse anthems would be pitched lower than church performances? Did you know that viols can be tuned to A465 (Renaissance wind pitch) without breaking the top string? The viols and strings in Bach's famous early cantata BWV 106 tuned to A465 organ pitch.
1banders 4 months ago
@1banders No I don't - my point is that I don't think that in the Renaissance they greatly cared about pitch consistency. I'm ignorant as to whether we know the pitch of the organs Gibbons used. My very first comment was simply to clarify that Gibbons didn't write it in four flats as shown in the video.
StrewthMcGinty1 4 months ago
@StrewthMcGinty1 No one in Gibbons' day wrote more than 2 flats in the key signature. They thought in terms of modes, not keys; the purpose of the flats was to transpose the mode to a "key" suitable for performance at the normally used pitch. The Ab scoring, transposing the original up a minor 3rd, reflects the editor's desire to make the piece fit the voice ranges of a modern mixed voice choir performing at A440. Historic pitches are determined from analysis of historic winds & organ pipes.
1banders 4 months ago
@StrewthMcGinty1 If they didn't care greatly about pitch consistency, why are historic winds and organs tuned at about the same pitch? In his "Syntagma Musicum" Michael Praetorious (1571-1621) describes and accounts for the pitches of instruments used in his day. The choice of pitch was not arbitrary. The quote you cite reflects the general lack of clarity, specificity and accuracy of descriptions given in treatises of the time rather than indifference to choice of pitch.
1banders 4 months ago
Perhaps one of my all time favorite pieces sung by an awesome choir. THANK YOU! I became aware of it mnay years ago when at a choir festival at our Cathedral in Houston. Our soloist was an amateur but superb. It is now embedded in my being.
phbrinsden 1 year ago
The original is in F major. Modern editions often transpose it up a minor 3rd on the mistaken assumption (based on a mis-analysis of the evidence of early organ pipe lengths) that Tudor church was was almost a minor third higher than a'=440. In fact (see Johnstone in Early Music 2003) such evidence shows that English church pitch was about a'=475, about two-thirds of a tone higher than modern concert pitch. This has certain consequences for voice-types.
deadlyernest100 1 year ago
this is lower than the music they have transposed it down
livandjazz 1 year ago
@livandjazz good ear!-- but actually the edition being shown is transposed up a minor third, the original is on F. Modern editions raise these pieces up so they may be sung by mixed choruses using female altos and sopranos.
monteverdi1567 1 year ago
Gibbons is amazing!
Baroqueroll9 1 year ago
Rogers Covey-Crump doing it a minor 3rd down from written pitch...
molealto 1 year ago
I've just studied this piece for my analysis project as part of my undergraduate degree - it's a wonderful piece. @mattmarcucci1 the music is in the original key (F major) but the score in the video is in the modern printed key (as in the English Church Music series books). It is transposed up a minor third today so to allow for a falsettist to sing the solo part, whereas the original asked for a contratenor - as performed in this version.
seandingley 1 year ago
Che musica meravigliosa!! Celestiale
W Orlando Gibbons & William Byrd
lcdm1973 2 years ago
Absolutely sublime. Many thanks for posting this piece.
mattmarcucci1 2 years ago
i'm an atheist, but "i am the voice of one crying in the wilderness" always gives me shivers.
riana21688 2 years ago 16
exactly, you don't need to be a Christian to love the music being sung
morphthing1 2 years ago 8
@riana21688 i think they even meant the meaning...
lickchick14 1 year ago
But it is not printed in the key it is sung in? the chorus bits at least are a 3rd out
FR665XN 2 years ago
oh how gorgeous this music is :) x
Raichu234 2 years ago
Comment removed
64ftContraBombarde 2 years ago
which choir? They sound great
DonRaphel 2 years ago
Magdalen College, Oxford
morphthing1 2 years ago