As Ford Battles Unions, We Look At What Unions Have Done With Motor City

[oldiron2007]

Thanks a lot democrats........you could screw up a wet dream

[JRBeaman]

Unions are just another form of socialism.

Forced socialism with a bit of extortion and mob action.

[hickoryou812]

I was wrongfully terminated after an on the job accident that required surgery. The union that represented me bailed and sighted with the company. Even though I was under doctors care and was never on the clock. The USWA and Teamsters agreed it should have been arbitrated. The ILA did not.. Indiana is an at will right to work state. I have lived here 48 of my 52 years. I would leave Indiana for an opportunity else where! Unions and companies work together on what they want. YOUR INSIGNIFICANT!

[ssepper]

VolDave53. It's not nearly that simple. If the company doesn't agree, your greedy unions strike until the company goes broke and closes or moves out of the country. Company loses, union loses, emplyees lose, and the community loses. If the company moves out of the country, then America loses too. SCREW UNIONS!!! They have indeed ruined the American Dream!

[11111110]

@ssepper

That's typically what happens in the absence of contracts. Goods and services aren't provided. The same applies to any business, no one can be forced to provide goods and services.

Saying that "if union workers don't like their pay, they can just get a new job" is the same as saying "if companies don't like their union workers, then they can just hire new ones".

[ssepper]

@11111110 I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not. Unions are a form a socialism which is NOT what America is based on. If you owned a business, how would you like it if a group bullied their way in & started telling you how to pay your employees, what benfits you had to give them, and who you could hire & fire??? That is exactly what unions do. If it is my business, these are MY decisions. If my employees don't like what I offer them, they have the freedom to find work elswhere.

[11111110]

@ssepper

You have no idea what socialism is, do you?

"If you owned a business, how would you like it if a group bullied their way in & started telling you how to pay your employees, what benfits you had to give them, and who you could hire & fire?"

Then you fire them, or refuse to engage in a contract. That's how a free market works. If you think an establishment is charging too much, then you buy elsewhere. You don't demand the establishment be forcefully disassembled.

[11111110]

@11111110

"Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost."

-Ronald Reagan

youtube(dot)com/watch?v=HsHXJr­8tqP0

[ErgoMan1953]

It's pretty simple to me. I was a contracted physical therapist in a hospital in Ashland KY and threatened by the Union if I did not "honor" a Union strike and not cross the line. Previously this Union had provoked members of a hospital across the river to strike and vandalize cars of doctors who reported to work to treat the sick and injured. This thuggish behavior by Union members made it clear that a Union presence threatens everyone's right to work and sometimes their personal safety.

[ewebsmith]

It's not that simple. Thanks to the inflationary monetary policies of the FED, the unions had to renegotiate in order to maintain the standard of living that they had won for their members. With each new contract, members ended up with nothing more than they already had. Now that the unions are owned by corporate America and do nothing for their members but rob them, it's a different story. - 46 year union member

[Weasler455]

@ewebsmith The hell with that. Unions have destroyed everything - auto manufacturing, newspapers, public schools, health care, you name it.

No one is forced into their jobs. You don't like your job, work conditions, or pay? Here's an idea: GET A NEW JOB!!!

[11111110]

@Weasler455

What if there aren't any?

[ssepper]

@11111110 First of all, you have to realize that this is partially because thousands of companies have been chased overseas. Secondly, B.S.!!! There ARE JOBS. The problem is people are either too lazy to do manual labor or to proud to do something simpler than they were trained for or to earn less than they think they are worth. People need to pay attention to the economic climate and adjust to the situation, swallow their pride and learn to eat a little crow now an then. Life ain't easy!

[11111110]

@ssepper

So the reason why we have 9.1% unemployment is because millions of Americans are suddenly fine with collecting $250 a week. There are in fact, millions of jobs! Waiting out there. This whole time I've been hearing about job-killing this and job-killing that.

[Weasler455]

@11111110 If we stopped these moves toward socialism, that problem would never exist - there would be jobs and competition galore. The unions have been and continue to be among the primary jobs destroyers.

[11111110]

@Weasler455

Why would unions want to destroy their own jobs, or shut down their own employer? They have every vested interest in keeping companies open for business.

[Weasler455]

@11111110 You would think so, right? And it's common sense that that should be the case. But unfortunately, that's not realiity. What the unions focus on most is getting pay for not working (eg, pensions). They could care less about the well-being of the company.

And just ask yourself: If the unions truly did care so much about the well-being of the companies, then exactly why has the once thriving City of Detroit turned into a decaying cesspool, to be converted to farmlands?

[11111110]

@Weasler455

So unions are out to destroy their own source of income. Brilliant. You, I mean.

Detroit collapsed because the automakers outsourced their car plants to Mexico, where they can pay workers a few cents an hour. If US autoworkers worked for minimum wage, it would STILL be more profitable to outsource. After the car makers left, so did the parts makers, along with the dozens of companies that depended on their business. It was an economic chain reaction.

[Weasler455]

@11111110 Nice try, but my response to all that is your damn unions should have thought of ALL that before they bled the companies dry to pay for people to not work.

BTW, costs to move operations overseas are not just the "few cents an hour" (another Lefty lie) to pay foreign workers. They are also facility, maintenance, transportation, and other costs. But in the end, these companies STILL find it more profitable to deal with that rather than submit to Mafia-controlled union thugs.

[11111110]

@Weasler455

I'm not sure why you call them "my" unions, as I really don't own them.

And in your second paragraph your basically agreeing with me without intending to, foreign labor is so cheap that it even offsets the additional transportation expenses. And again, If US autoworkers worked for minimum wage, it would STILL be more profitable to outsource. You can either hope that companies stop seeking the highest possible profits, or accept that foreign labor will always be cheaper.

[Weasler455]

@11111110 Well, I can see why you are a laborer - you clearly don't understand business. The objective of business is to make a profit. If something is going to hamper that objective, then you have two choices: 1) Change whatever hampers the profit, or 2) Go out of business (unfortunately, too many companies seem to be opting for the latter course, in part thanks to the unions). Don't like your company's profit-making objective? The once again, FIND ANOTHER JOB.

[11111110]

@Weasler455

The objective of business is to make a profit. That's exactly what I said. The decisions to shut down auto plants was a purely capitalistic, free market decision.

Unfortunately, a lot of companies see the government as an appendage for their own interests. So they "change whatever hampers the profit" by less legitimate means, ie lobbying for union-busting laws. Instead of making the less convenient, free-market decision of not contracting unions in the first place.

[VolDave53]

It takes two parties to sign a labor agreement. If the company did not feel it could survive with the agreement, they certainly would not have inked the deal. Poor management decisions ruin industries. . . any questions?

[AtlasObjectivist]

@VolDave53 Unfortunately we are all too familiar with the union response when they don't get their way. It's not as easy to simply negotiate and have a labor agreement.

[Weasler455]

Unions are the primary reason why so many jobs go overseas. It's that simple. The sooner people realize this, the better off we'll all be.

[punisherrorschach27]

@Weasler455 No, it's not that simple. It might be perfect for the people looking for confirmation bias and who are looking to scapegoat unions for our job loss, but it's ultimately the guy sitting in the slick black chair that makes that decision because he doesn't want to fuck around with unions or wage negotiations. Unions can get greedy sometimes too, but they ultimately don't make the decision to outsource.

[Weasler455]

@punisherrorschach27 You people ought to try growing up for once. OF COURSE the unions don't make the decision to outsource. But the unions sure as hell give management a REASON to outsource.

You make it sound like companies send jobs overseas just to hurt your feelings. It's very expensive and risky to move operations overseas, and if the unions were just a little less greedy, short-sighted, and corrupt, they probably WOULDN'T make the decision to outsource!

Like I said - very simple.

[punisherrorschach27]

@Weasler455-I don't know how you interpreted my initial statement as having my feelings hurt over this or as being immature. I acknowledged that they can get greedy themselves (seems mature to me), but at what point to you give the big wigs a free pass? Do you refuse to acknowledge that they too get greedy and will outsource jobs at times regardless of union pressure? Do you refuse to acknowledge that when resources get more expensive they'll cut the price via using cheaper labor?

[Weasler455]

@punisherrorschach27 What I meant by "hurt feelings" was about how unions regard management. They act like management outsources just to make their lives miserable. It's nothing of a sort. It's simply a business decision, made all the more easier by the unions who wind up demanding too much. You pretty much answer your own questions when you mention "union pressure" and "cheaper labor". Just consider: If you were in management's position, what would YOU do?

[punisherrorschach27]

@Weasler455 - Again, that's not always the case. You can't simply disregard the complaints of some or all unions as being illegit. It's not always a case of "demanding too much" , how would you feel if your job got outsourced when the company would rather ignore your complaints about better safety standards in favor of cost cutting on two ends. Sometimes, it's less about a monetary view and more of a conversation on ethics. For me it would depend on the situation and what's being asked.

[punisherrorschach27]

@Weasler455 -It's not as black and white as you want to make it out as. Adding to my recent statement, I wouldn't be so quick to discount the grievances of all unions. It's not always about greed, myopia, or corruption as you want it to be. There can be legitimate reasons for doing so like trying to get the corporation in question to address the dangers of working in a job, or needing health benefits in a time where good health is expensive. Remember, this is business, not altruism. Cuts happen.

[Weasler455]

@punisherrorschach27 But it IS. It's a myth that work stoppages occur over work place hazards. Such nonsense. Besides, you have OSHA and the government on your side on that one. Face it: Strikes are about compensation.

And once again, it goes back to the same mantra: If the conditions at your job are SO undesirable, FIND A NEW JOB. If there's no job in your area, RELOCATE TO ANOTHER AREA, like so many executives often do. See how it works?

[punisherrorschach27]

@Weasler455 -I disagree with your assertion that it's a myth and the subsequent OSHA name dropping. Where the stoppages occur is financing those safety regulations (of which organizations are rather unwilling to do more times than not due to overestimation of the cost). It's not nonsense, your "myth" is but a bare-faced assertion. In reference to your later quips, relocating and finding new jobs isn't so easy because people don't shit money and the current economy make open jobs hard to find.