Anarchy: Co-operation without restraint-Noam Chomsky (3/5)

[rsuthe00]

my husky hates water

[Rickdeckard2020]

The last part about more-or-less hobby work made me think of what I hear about in MMOs, people just spending time crafting virtual objects garnments potions (weapons) etc, without being forced or needing to do it.

The society proposed is interesting, but I dont think it would work, I think a transition system (popular democracy thats transparent and implements some aspects) would be required as a stepping stone.

[scoobyDx]

"Libertarian socialism" is a logical fallacy, an oxymoron.

Libertarianism is about putting the liberty of the individual above the whims of the mob. Socialism is about subordinating the individual to the needs of the mob through use of coercive force.

The first fallacy is this idea that you will revoke private property rights and, at the same time, do so without coercive force.

[Rickdeckard2020]

?

You are inventing you own view of socialism, its as if I would say 'everyone knows that libertarian forces everyone to eat 3 hotdogs with peanutbutter and peptobismol in it each day'

Most Socialist democracies do not negate private propety, you can have a house car widescreen HD flatscreen.

[Rickdeckard2020]

the whims of the mob? like democracy? So its about everyman-for-himself dog-eat-dog, theve tried that in primitive times, it leads straight to feudalistic warlords, youd have corporate feudal lords benefiting from slave labor ;)

Unless you outlaw corporations they will rule over individuals. imo

[scoobyDx]

I'm using chomskys own view of socialism. He believes means of production must be collectively owned. I've looked into it.

wikipedia "Libertarian socialism"

[Rickdeckard2020]

wiki and crap: Sorry, I thought you meant socialism like in europe, Libertarian and socialism indeed are opposed in many respects

[scoobyDx]

ahh yes, it's one thing that bugs me about the word socialism.

by one standard i live in a socialist country (canada) because the state provides social programs from taxation levied on capitalist enterprise.

Then theres just communists who call themselves socialists.. i always thought it was kind of a dishonest thing to do.

[scoobyDx]

If someone comes to your house and says "this house is now all of ours, you don't won it", and you say no - you are shit out of luck, because the society says so. You're individual rights are subordinated to the mob - that is anti-libertarian. That's just socialism, repackaged and given a fancy name.

[Rickdeckard2020]

'You're individual rights are subordinated to the mob'

Its called civilization.

Trafic light oppress my 'individual freedom' to go through an intersection full throtle, but without this limitation(coordination) everyone would likely be completely stuck in grid lock(or blocked by a crash).

[PuppyHate]

By that same logic capitalism is anti-libertarian since the point of owning property is to exclude anyone else from using it, therefore limiting their freedom. For example, if someone buys all the land around your house they pretty much created a prison for you...unless you have a helicopter.

[PuppyHate]

Under libertarian capitalism the amount of liberty you have is related to the amount of money you have. If you have no property or no means to purchase it then in reality you have no freedom, since everything around you is not yours.

Also, there is a difference between personal property and private property, i doubt personal property would be abolished in libertarian socialism.

[scoobyDx]

Who determines the difference?

[PuppyHate]

The same people who would decide supply and demand in libertarian capitalism.