Interesting. Kind of a silly question, but I've found myself wondering this too. I just thought, "Well, if Satan lived in Heaven, and was, presumably, a sinless angel, and yet could step out of his perfection to sin, why couldn't we, when we get there, likewise have the possibility of sin?" In my lack of understanding it seemed very distressing to me to think that even after death sin will be something to have to fight. But this video gives a good answer. Thanks!
1 john 3,4 sin is the transgression of the law. so keep the law ,statues and commadements and you make it in to the kingdom, if you dont keep the law you wont make it to the kingdom period. Satan did sin thats why he was cast out from heaven. and stop that lie about anyone going to heaven, the kingdom will be on earth here. you are unlearn in scriptures, stop giving people advice
Is there freewill in heaven? you seem to be suggesting that your outrage at child rape makes you a "gooder" person and therefore child rape has it's place! the more outraged you are the "gooder" you are, but your god says "hey it doesn't matter if you are outraged or not over child rape, in fact it doesn't matter if you rape children, actually it's better if you DO rape children just say sorry after then I will hold you in higher esteem than anyone who hasn't raped a child
I think your wrong, it's free will- God gave us a choice and remember that before the fall man was perfect! After the fall the knowledge of evil enterd the heart and mind of man the ground was cursed exc... It's the SIN that we have to deal with that is the reason for all the uglyness in our world.
Where do you get the notion man was perfect? You will not find that in the Bible. He was good, indeed, and he was sinless, absolutely, but where do you get the idea he was perfect? Perfection implies he could never have sinned, and this is just plain wrong. If you are going to say something like this, then you might as well go ahead and declare Satan perfect as well.
@rofyle Well perfect in the way God originally planed for mankind without the knowledge of evil. When God said "and he saw that it was good" referring to man and creation you can say that it was perfect because God is perfect! Lucifer was perfect in the way God created him in the beginning but had fallen and wanted to be God also brought into existence the knowledge of evil, SIN!! Sin is imperfection and evil and goes against God who is perfect and HOLY!! Before the fall all was perfect!
When He said it was good, He meant that it demonstrated in limited form what He is like. If He had meant it was perfect, and since He Himself is perfect, then He would have in essence created something equal to Himself - which He did not!
God does not just "allow" things. He decrees they shall be. He decreed sin shall exist. He decreed Satan shall fall. He decreed all mankind shall fall. Why? So that He shall glorify His Son.
God’s command required perfect obedience. If man were created perfect, than he would have had no problem obeying God’s command. The fact is God created man imperfect - good, but nevertheless imperfect. And btw, just who was it that created Satan knowing full well (and even purposing) the angel would go bad?
@rofyle FREE WILL!!! I can see a perfect, holy, just GOD creating all kinds of life and allowing freedom of choice. Being free to choose man fell for the lie of a fallen Satan and this Sin brought about a fallen creation because of disobedience to our perfect and holy creator!! Why allow it to continue? well lets understand that God knows the beginning to the and, God saw everything--- NOW!! Not only bad people existed this whole time its for the sake of the good that God allowed it
God knows everything without actually purposing that same everything? Be careful, you are wading into the heresy of molinism. God does more than just know. He plans and carries out His purposes.
Free will is nothing more than man's puny attempt to establish glory for himself. Man wants to take credit for believing. The fact is he can't! We are born slaves to sin. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit.
@rofyle Did God create us to sin? No God created us perfect, this does not mean equal to God but perfect in the way God intended us to exist without the knowledge of evil, SIN! Allowing us to have free will and under the circumstances at that time when Satan fell and introduced the knowledge of evil into our world the bible said we were cursed as well as the ground. So yes everything was perfect before the fall unless you are trying to say that God created us to sin and allow evil to take off
@RicoRicanNYC God is perfect and holy so it does no t make sense for a perfect holy God to create a free thinking creature and make the sin happen, that would be evil. The bible clearly says that Satan FELL and introduced sin into our world they chose to follow Satan bottom line... God sees the future and allows for creation to continue for the sake of any good that is to come out of this creation and the evil will be judged!!!
Your theology is very bad. By arguing that Satan introduced sin into God's creation without God having control over it, you make Satan another god equal to God. Listen, God gave Israel the Law. Did He expect Israel to keep it?
"The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more." Romans 5:20
It was always God's intent that Israel fail to keep His Law. It was always God's intent that Adam fall.
You have this idea in your head that mankind is the crown jewel of God's universe. You have the idea that the earth was made for man. No, my friend. God created the universe so that He might glorify His Son. Christ crucified, resurrected and ascended is the crown jewel of God's universe. The earth was always to play backdrop and stage to His glorification. You and I, we are but worms dependent on His grace. If man is so free, then why isn't he free not to sin?
YES! GOD CREATED US TO FALL INTO SIN SO THAT HE COULD THEN GLORIFY HIS SON BY SENDING HIM TO DIE AND RISE AGAIN FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT DESERVE IT, CANNOT DESERVE IT, AND CAN DO NOTHING TO EARN IT. You call that unfair. You say it is unfair because you want the opportunity to glorify your own name. You want a big pat on the back from God. Well, you won't get it! He doesn't care about your glory. He cares about His. That is why the first word of the Gospel is repent.
Your saying that God is EVIL!!! Much of what your saying goes against scripture!!!! God created us to follow him however because of free will and the fall of Satan we ended up falling for a lie. Your view makes God look selfish and pathetic and that's not the same God I serve... I serve the Holy pure God of Scripture who has allowed us to choose our own path... God creating us to fall from the beginning is a lie from Satan and I never saw that in the bible... we fell on our own!!!
Please demonstrate how anything I've said goes against Scripture. Your saying so does not make it so. I see you have favorited James White (DrOakley). You should have taken the time to actually listen to what he has to say. Here is a video from him that will set you straight. /watch?v=1A3Sy7-t0Rk&playnext_from=TL&videos=yHmbjoreD90
@rofyle I saw that video long time ago::: You said "YES! GOD CREATED US TO FALL INTO SIN" This would be false, God knew that we WOULD fall into sin but didn't create us to fall into sin then sat back and enjoy the fire works!! My point is that God allowed us to continue onward for the sake of all the good that was to come out of creation, if God would have only seen nothing but bad then I'm sure he would not have allowed this existence to continue. That's only one example .
To say that God deliberately created human life to fall into sin for selfish reasons that would appear to be stupid and evil is just plain crazy and goes against the idea that God is holy and pure, just exc... The bible does say that God knows the beginning to the end so yes he knew we would SIN and planed steps ahead of the times.
Who said anything about sitting back and watching the fireworks? This is your assertion, not the Bible's. If, as you say, God allowed us to continue onward fro the sake of all the good that was to come, then why did He purposely make the cross a stumbling block to most people? (1 Peter 2:8)
You believe God's purpose in glorifying His name to be something stupid and evil, do you? Interesting. Satan does too.
How is Eve being entrapped seem unloving? It would only be unloving if God had left her in sin, right? But this still presupposes God's purpose is to love us, which is most certainly not the case. God's purpose is to glorify His name.
That is just begging inconsistensies in the the creation myth. This entire thing is reverse engineering and desperately banging a square peg into a round hole.
Unless Eves actions were as a result of free will, which your argument makes impossible, then you pull the rug out from under the whole thing.
It does make sense to me. Consider a tree that could give us knowledge to be like God but not the wisdom. Would we take that knowledge and seek separation from God or otherwise need to be separated. A parent can instruct a child not to do something but in some cases is that child not better off having learned a lesson the hard way. No we can't fully understand the full meaning of this great controversy yet we have clues and the promise that more will be revealed once we have been adopted...
Very speculative. And I think a sinless mortal could learn patience through the natural frustrations that come from being in relationship with another disabled, sinless mortal.
Interesting. Kind of a silly question, but I've found myself wondering this too. I just thought, "Well, if Satan lived in Heaven, and was, presumably, a sinless angel, and yet could step out of his perfection to sin, why couldn't we, when we get there, likewise have the possibility of sin?" In my lack of understanding it seemed very distressing to me to think that even after death sin will be something to have to fight. But this video gives a good answer. Thanks!
Nyarl3 1 year ago
1 john 3,4 sin is the transgression of the law. so keep the law ,statues and commadements and you make it in to the kingdom, if you dont keep the law you wont make it to the kingdom period. Satan did sin thats why he was cast out from heaven. and stop that lie about anyone going to heaven, the kingdom will be on earth here. you are unlearn in scriptures, stop giving people advice
yakkenyi 1 year ago
Is there freewill in heaven? you seem to be suggesting that your outrage at child rape makes you a "gooder" person and therefore child rape has it's place! the more outraged you are the "gooder" you are, but your god says "hey it doesn't matter if you are outraged or not over child rape, in fact it doesn't matter if you rape children, actually it's better if you DO rape children just say sorry after then I will hold you in higher esteem than anyone who hasn't raped a child
JoshuaTrio 1 year ago
thank you for sharing your thoughts on this
TogetherForPeace 1 year ago
I think your wrong, it's free will- God gave us a choice and remember that before the fall man was perfect! After the fall the knowledge of evil enterd the heart and mind of man the ground was cursed exc... It's the SIN that we have to deal with that is the reason for all the uglyness in our world.
RicoRicanNYC 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC
Where do you get the notion man was perfect? You will not find that in the Bible. He was good, indeed, and he was sinless, absolutely, but where do you get the idea he was perfect? Perfection implies he could never have sinned, and this is just plain wrong. If you are going to say something like this, then you might as well go ahead and declare Satan perfect as well.
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle Well perfect in the way God originally planed for mankind without the knowledge of evil. When God said "and he saw that it was good" referring to man and creation you can say that it was perfect because God is perfect! Lucifer was perfect in the way God created him in the beginning but had fallen and wanted to be God also brought into existence the knowledge of evil, SIN!! Sin is imperfection and evil and goes against God who is perfect and HOLY!! Before the fall all was perfect!
RicoRicanNYC 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC
When He said it was good, He meant that it demonstrated in limited form what He is like. If He had meant it was perfect, and since He Himself is perfect, then He would have in essence created something equal to Himself - which He did not!
God does not just "allow" things. He decrees they shall be. He decreed sin shall exist. He decreed Satan shall fall. He decreed all mankind shall fall. Why? So that He shall glorify His Son.
rofyle 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC
God’s command required perfect obedience. If man were created perfect, than he would have had no problem obeying God’s command. The fact is God created man imperfect - good, but nevertheless imperfect. And btw, just who was it that created Satan knowing full well (and even purposing) the angel would go bad?
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle FREE WILL!!! I can see a perfect, holy, just GOD creating all kinds of life and allowing freedom of choice. Being free to choose man fell for the lie of a fallen Satan and this Sin brought about a fallen creation because of disobedience to our perfect and holy creator!! Why allow it to continue? well lets understand that God knows the beginning to the and, God saw everything--- NOW!! Not only bad people existed this whole time its for the sake of the good that God allowed it
RicoRicanNYC 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC
God knows everything without actually purposing that same everything? Be careful, you are wading into the heresy of molinism. God does more than just know. He plans and carries out His purposes.
Free will is nothing more than man's puny attempt to establish glory for himself. Man wants to take credit for believing. The fact is he can't! We are born slaves to sin. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit.
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle I just looked at what I wrote and what you are responding and I must say that you don't get my points at all so it's cool, God bless!
RicoRicanNYC 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC
If you feel I've missed your points, then feel free to message me and explain them to me.
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle Did God create us to sin? No God created us perfect, this does not mean equal to God but perfect in the way God intended us to exist without the knowledge of evil, SIN! Allowing us to have free will and under the circumstances at that time when Satan fell and introduced the knowledge of evil into our world the bible said we were cursed as well as the ground. So yes everything was perfect before the fall unless you are trying to say that God created us to sin and allow evil to take off
RicoRicanNYC 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC God is perfect and holy so it does no t make sense for a perfect holy God to create a free thinking creature and make the sin happen, that would be evil. The bible clearly says that Satan FELL and introduced sin into our world they chose to follow Satan bottom line... God sees the future and allows for creation to continue for the sake of any good that is to come out of this creation and the evil will be judged!!!
RicoRicanNYC 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC
Your theology is very bad. By arguing that Satan introduced sin into God's creation without God having control over it, you make Satan another god equal to God. Listen, God gave Israel the Law. Did He expect Israel to keep it?
"The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more." Romans 5:20
It was always God's intent that Israel fail to keep His Law. It was always God's intent that Adam fall.
rofyle 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC
You have this idea in your head that mankind is the crown jewel of God's universe. You have the idea that the earth was made for man. No, my friend. God created the universe so that He might glorify His Son. Christ crucified, resurrected and ascended is the crown jewel of God's universe. The earth was always to play backdrop and stage to His glorification. You and I, we are but worms dependent on His grace. If man is so free, then why isn't he free not to sin?
rofyle 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC
YES! GOD CREATED US TO FALL INTO SIN SO THAT HE COULD THEN GLORIFY HIS SON BY SENDING HIM TO DIE AND RISE AGAIN FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT DESERVE IT, CANNOT DESERVE IT, AND CAN DO NOTHING TO EARN IT. You call that unfair. You say it is unfair because you want the opportunity to glorify your own name. You want a big pat on the back from God. Well, you won't get it! He doesn't care about your glory. He cares about His. That is why the first word of the Gospel is repent.
rofyle 1 year ago
Your saying that God is EVIL!!! Much of what your saying goes against scripture!!!! God created us to follow him however because of free will and the fall of Satan we ended up falling for a lie. Your view makes God look selfish and pathetic and that's not the same God I serve... I serve the Holy pure God of Scripture who has allowed us to choose our own path... God creating us to fall from the beginning is a lie from Satan and I never saw that in the bible... we fell on our own!!!
RicoRicanNYC 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC
Please demonstrate how anything I've said goes against Scripture. Your saying so does not make it so. I see you have favorited James White (DrOakley). You should have taken the time to actually listen to what he has to say. Here is a video from him that will set you straight. /watch?v=1A3Sy7-t0Rk&playnext_from=TL&videos=yHmbjoreD90
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle I saw that video long time ago::: You said "YES! GOD CREATED US TO FALL INTO SIN" This would be false, God knew that we WOULD fall into sin but didn't create us to fall into sin then sat back and enjoy the fire works!! My point is that God allowed us to continue onward for the sake of all the good that was to come out of creation, if God would have only seen nothing but bad then I'm sure he would not have allowed this existence to continue. That's only one example .
RicoRicanNYC 1 year ago
To say that God deliberately created human life to fall into sin for selfish reasons that would appear to be stupid and evil is just plain crazy and goes against the idea that God is holy and pure, just exc... The bible does say that God knows the beginning to the end so yes he knew we would SIN and planed steps ahead of the times.
RicoRicanNYC 1 year ago
@RicoRicanNYC
Who said anything about sitting back and watching the fireworks? This is your assertion, not the Bible's. If, as you say, God allowed us to continue onward fro the sake of all the good that was to come, then why did He purposely make the cross a stumbling block to most people? (1 Peter 2:8)
You believe God's purpose in glorifying His name to be something stupid and evil, do you? Interesting. Satan does too.
rofyle 1 year ago
If the intention was always a fallen world, that implies Eve was entrapped. That seems a little unloving to me, you?
gabiotta 1 year ago
@gabiotta
How is Eve being entrapped seem unloving? It would only be unloving if God had left her in sin, right? But this still presupposes God's purpose is to love us, which is most certainly not the case. God's purpose is to glorify His name.
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle
That is just begging inconsistensies in the the creation myth. This entire thing is reverse engineering and desperately banging a square peg into a round hole.
Unless Eves actions were as a result of free will, which your argument makes impossible, then you pull the rug out from under the whole thing.
gabiotta 1 year ago
It does make sense to me. Consider a tree that could give us knowledge to be like God but not the wisdom. Would we take that knowledge and seek separation from God or otherwise need to be separated. A parent can instruct a child not to do something but in some cases is that child not better off having learned a lesson the hard way. No we can't fully understand the full meaning of this great controversy yet we have clues and the promise that more will be revealed once we have been adopted...
rusty2029 1 year ago
the way Greg Koukl explains it is very understanding and humble
yowmc2000 1 year ago
Very speculative. And I think a sinless mortal could learn patience through the natural frustrations that come from being in relationship with another disabled, sinless mortal.
aaronshaf2006 1 year ago