the lds church is slime, they are lairs, lds is a cult....they are racist , pedophiles, The LDS church has not changed, native Americans had nothing to do with the murderers. Listen how the morman cult tries to make itself a martyr ion this video. I lived in SLC and worked with Mormons. i was told by a mormon that Hitler was a hero. Hitler had thje right idea. They believe that whites are the delightsome and blacks are children of satan. they believe jesus and satan are brothers, what a joke
@bluepastry please we don't believe black are Satan and we don't believe Hitler had the right idea, And since you could not say anything positive about us like the fact we help people who are poor or help children find the right family to live with leads me to believe you don't work with Mormons and you just made all that up just to stir up criticism.
i will recover from the pain and some day my love ones will be out of this church. i know evil exist and i know these leaders lead people to a dark place. away from truth. get to work now. you have some changes to do in your books etc
maybe its time for the church to do what it did so well in the past. pack up and move some place away from the world. but a little thing called the internet. and a big thing called GOD will follow you. and when you get pride full again there will God be to push you away from humble hearted people who fall for the only true church!
we will be setting next to our brain washed love ones gathering more information. after all it is this church that teaches us to use Christ language and make sure we have the holly spirit. i'm sure with your mantels giving to yo by god and the guide of the holly spirit you will find who these members are. as well as ways to continue to try and cover up truth. we are a predictable church! that well set many free in the end from its grip
finely they told the head of the church to stop reseting retarded stories and try to behave like a normal profit. Ironic that at a time when the truth comes out we have a fat retard for a profit. a church that keeps records of our every move yet they have done such a good job at hiding so much. it has to be of GOD that we get to see what we were giving our faith and money to. Some of us wont have our names removed from the records. but instead
the church has never been clear, honest or true. many of the people in it have held the church with there faith. the last thing and yet the only thing the church could do is shut down and allow members to enjoy the rest of there lives with out false doctrine. but even the leaders are convinced its true so they will try to gather the lost lams and find new victims. hard words for a church who has taken so much from so many!
Now! LATE! this is how this church has always done things. if you ask them about the blacks. they will say thats in the past! insulting from the ex head of the church.
here they try to come out on time before a movie would show the truth.
but its ok. most mormons are blinded with false doctrine so not much well change.
emotions and little feelings in our chest wont hide the truth.
the church has preyed in the hearts of humble people.
Mormons seek the truth and it will set you free. I did and I can see the world for what it truly is. Read the history of the church books and journal entries of those involved in the early church for the answers, its as plain as day. Religion is the commercialization of spiritualism. It has the power to brainwash the masses.
How many Mormons are dead in NY, Missouri (Hans Mills), Illinois, and the plains between Illinois? A lot more than died at Mountain Meadows, and what about the coming of Johnson's Army and the conduct of the emigrants. Mormonism is not a cult, it is a church, people are free to come and free to leave.
@kramd1 ... An anti-Mormon (and they do exist) is someone who hates all Mormons and everything about them. An anti-Mormon has nothing good to say about Mormons. To them ALL Mormons are going to hell. Fortunately, true anti-Mormons are small in number. Most "Christians" are simply anti-Mormonism, meaning that they have nothing against Mormon people, but just disagree with our beliefs and doctrines. Hope that helps.
@JediMormon " Most "Christians" are simply anti-Mormonism " you say. : O
That make mormons anti christian. Last I heard mormons were flat out trying to be accepted as christians . Going around labelling any one who has a differing view as anti christ really does not help your cause.
@kramd1 ... When have I ever labeled anyone as anti-Christ? (Hint: I never have.) And most Christians ARE anti-Mormonism, meaning that they disagree with Mormon beliefs and doctrine. That's no slam, just an observation. I never diss anyone's personal beliefs about their own religion. "Trying to be accepted as Christian"? Actually, and despite what others may think, we do believe in Jesus Christ and what he did for us. According to the Bible, that's Christian. :o)
@kramd1 When have I ever labeled anyone as anti-Christ? (Hint: I never have.) And most Christians ARE anti-Mormonism, meaning that they disagree with Mormon beliefs and doctrine. That's no slam, just an observation. I never diss anyone's personal beliefs about their own religion. "Trying to be accepted as Christian"? Actually, and despite what others may think, we do believe in Jesus Christ and what he did for us. And we try to follow his teachings. According to the Bible, that's Christian. :o)
appointing himself General of the Nauvoo Legion,his order of the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor,Joseph Smith was fined for running an illegal bank, many bankrupted Mormons left the church. Smith married the wives of other brethren members after he had sent them on missions for the lord. Plagiarised masonic secret signs and tokens for adaption and use in his temples rituals. He told allot of lies.
I don't ever remember the Catholic Church being confronted about the Crusades or Bloody Mary. It just seems that they always get a pass while when the Mormons kill 130 people during a time of war against the US, they are full of controversy and everyone's like saying "evil" and "dem bad Morms".
@masterskyrunner Brought to you by the " Only true church" where God decided that an apostasy occurred ,where the Catholic church is labelled "the great and Abominable" All else have Zero authority to call them selves christian. mmm on the MMM .
@lindalds "seventeen children under eight were spared and given to Mormon families. The children were taken to the home of Rachel Hamblin. She later described how the children arrived “in the darkness of night, two of the children cruelly mangled and the most of them with their parents’ blood still wet upon their clothes, and all of them shrieking with terror and grief and anguish.”
@lindalds yes and your point is September Dawn is anti mormon propaganda. My point is I don't think so. The children that were spared taken back to mormon town spoke of mormons disguised as indians. How can you not open your eyes. Blinded by mormon propaganda and lies.
@kramd1 Yes, it's anti-Mormon propaganda. I'm not saying that it never happened, nor am I saying that these children were not traumatized. But, it did NOT happen at the blessing of Brigham Young and the church leaders. And everyone seems to want to vilify the Mormons, when they pointedly ignore all the persecution that went on BEFORE the MMM.
@lindalds Well that's your version. Brigham Young knew about the Baker Finch party travelling thru Utah and had made a request of mormons not to trade supplies with them ( FACT ) . Mormons have their own version of events. Just take a look at the mormon propaganda machine on Joseph Smith. I fails to tell the truth on many many counts ( too numerous to mention) . Brigham Young did nothing to those that were involved in these murders and he certainly knew what transpired if not had a part in it.
@kramd1 Yes, Brigham knew, and yes, he said, don't trade with ANYONE, not just the Fancher party. The territory was under martial law.
No, he knew nothing about it till it was all over. Like I said, I don't know if justice was served, but that should not affect us, because WE didn't do it, and YOU didn't have it done to you.
@kramd1 And if WE must assume guilt for it, then everyone else must assume guilt over everything that happened to the Mormons in Missouri and Illinois and Ohio, and everywhere else.
@kramd1 Yes, this was a sad note in LDS history. Was justice served? I don't know. But, I'd be willing to bet that those who carried out this terrible crime felt that justice WAS served for all that the Mormons went thru before they came to the Salt Lake and were obviously STILL going thru, with the US Army parked outside the territory, loaded for bear.
So, yes, it is anti-Mormon propaganda. It tells ONE side of the story and very biased against the Mormons.
@lindalds Having read allot of material available Mountain meadows massacre I can see that the distortion and convoluted apology that mormons portray is true to form like that of the portrayal Joseph Smith. A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE than what history tells. Why are you taught not to read all that is available ? Perhaps if you had an open mind you would not accuse those reporting the story as anti mormon. I fail to see your JUSTICE reasoning. Are you taught it was justice served ?
@kramd1 I SAID, I don't know if justice was served or not.
I THINK that the Mormons THEN might have felt that justice was served for everything that happened to them before, in Missouri and Illinois, and Ohio.
But, who must apologize to whom? WE didn't kill anyone, and no one I know was killed by us. It's like saying that WE must apologize to all African/Americans TODAY for slavery. WE didn't hold any slaves, and THEY were not held in slavery. So, apologize to whom for what?
@kramd1 Actually, we are not "taught" anything about the MMM, except that it happened. The bit about justification, like I said, is MY OWN THEORY. Nothing more.
@kramd1 ... a common fallacy anti-Mormonism types make is assuming that the LDS church restricts what it's members can and can't read. Nothing is further from the truth. As for what history tells of JS, if you believe every bad thing you read about him, I feel sorry for you. Read about the persecutions he went through. News papers lied about him all the time. Question: if JS never had any gold plates, then why we so many constantly trying to steal them from him? Something to think about. :o)
@JediMormon Jedi Mormon. Now there's a combo of fantasy.
Explain then why every mormon photo or film of Joseph Smith shows him translating directly from his gold plates , not via his head in a hat looking thru a stone, his death in Carthage without a pistol, No promo or pics of his many wives, No rolling in the hay with Fanny Alger pics with Emma catching him out, No depiction of the mormon legions with general Smith with sword & full military dress.
@kramd1 No photos or films exist showing JS translating. Only painting or drawings. And of course JS had a gun in Carthage. He had every right to protect himself and his friends who were in the jail with him. He also was Captain of the Nauvoo Legion. Your point is?
@JediMormon self appointed general, started to print his own currency "anti BANK ing " notes . the bank failed many became disillusioned after loosing all their money, he was to stand trial for the wanton destruction of the the "Navou printing press" he had enraged fellow mormon and others also on the count of polygamy, relatives of the wives, and the Masons were pissed for his disregard of the Masonic oaths that he had plagiarised. Every one at Carthage where Masons.
@JediMormon so you believe Masonic symbols were a revelation to Joseph Smith. Nothing to do with the fact he gleaned them from the masonic lodge. ? Some how God chose to reveal masonic the signs tokens and symbols to Joseph Smith. " shaking head " wondering if you can think for yourself.
Tell me I'm wrong . you think temple ordinance are not a masonic knock off. Totally inspired of God. While in the grove of trees god scribed the symbols on top of mushrooms for Joseph to eat.
@kramd1 The actual symbols are not an issue with me. Symbols can mean whatever the user chooses them to mean. A good example is the inverted pentagram. In the early days of Christianity, it stood for the five wounds of Christ. Then some de-frocked priest drew a goat's head in the middle of it and pronounced it Satanic. All of a sudden, the rest of the Christian world went along with that interpretation, and the symbol turned from something good into something evil. What matters is the covenants.
@kramd1 children that were spared taken back to mormon town spoke of mormons disguised as indians.
in all the blood and carnage.Seeing their parents beeing slaughtered.These children were somehow able to Know that these people who were supposedly disguised as Indians were in fact Not Indians But were Mormons disguised as Indians?
If this is what you are saying you give us great insight into your prejudiced stupid mind
@jferristube "hardly a massacre" ? really and it's ok to lie and kill for the lord. What makes mormons any different than any other religious zealots killing in the name of god ?
@kramd1 Your saying the mormons did not dress as Indians ?
Perhaps! Who knows?My point?How were children younger than 8 able to under all that emotional stress able to identify the perpetrators as mormons?Explain that to me!
Mormons were involved.No denying.
Hitler was a Catholic.Do you condemn ALL Catholics for the actions of Hitler and his buddies.
mormons believe jesus and lucifer are brothers, jesus is from the planet Kolob, and that native americans are really israelites whom jesus evangelized after the ressurection. funny. . . none of this is in the bible
@spylok85 Mormons believe that EVERYONE is brothers and sisters. Including Jesus, and Lucifer, not Satan. Spirit brothers and sisters, not blood. And everyone knows, being brothers does not mean jack because family can be disowned and dis-inherited.
Kolob is not a planet, it's a star, and it the star closest to where God is.
We don't know if any of the Native Americans today are directly descended from the Lamanites. That does not mean, however, that there never were any Lamanites.
@lindalds "its the star closest to where God is". . . according to what? your book of false prophecy written by a con man?. . . and still, none of what you said is biblical. stop worshipping joseph smith.
@spylok85 That's what we believe. We of course do not believe Joseph Smith to be a con man (there is no evidence, no matter what false witness you come up with). We don't worship Joseph Smith, any more than you or I worships Peter, Paul, James or John.
They are not Christians they don't believe in Jesus teachings that's why they have to get married in the temple to go to heaven and to become a god in d&c 132 22-23
No duh the church didn't do it, as in the fact that the building didn't do it. The leaders of the religion sent direct orders to Lee to kill them. So yes it was their fault. That's why they covered it up for so long. My great great great grandmother is Trephenia Fancher. One of the 17 children who's lives was spared because they were too young to tell. she was 22 months old. She was the daughter of my great great great great grandfather Alexander Fancher who was the captain of the party
The Mormons ordered the attack, plain and simple, they even dressed like indians to disquise themselves as they fought along sde with the indians. The mormon leaders offered the indians the cattle of the cristians if they would help. John D Lee was the only man who was punished wor the 120 murders of the men, children, and women on 9/11/1857. He was told by the heads of the church to kill them and avenge the blood of Joseph Smith. At Lees trial mormons involved in MMM testified against Lee
"Lee told Brigham Young that the Indians had been solely responsible, that no white men were mixed up in it."
Autobiography of William B. Ashworth 1845-1934
I think you are confusing facts like that above with what Lee thought... he said that he thought BY sent someone to Southern Utah to exterminate those people...
@Sk8er408 Rachel and John D Lee say it was in his diaries but Briggy sent some guys to go through them and remove the inappropriate material. Lee didn't directly implicate Briggy in his confession. However, a Real trial would have easily exposed his prior knowledge. And he was in charge, being the theocratic despotic tyranny that Utah was. Dimmick Huntington's diary goes to the issue. And James Gemmell fled for his life:: He said he was in the office when Briggy said "I;d kill them" to Hamblin
@Sk8er408 "NO sign of it" is perfect Mormonese:: There is never Any evidence for any of the claims made by Mormonism, be it the Mountain Meadows Mass Murders by Mormons, The BofM, the Abe Papyrus, it's all "Faith" the eternal "presence of an absence". Brigham Young covered up many crime. He was the theocratic despotic tyrant over the Mormons. It was he who controlled with an Iron Fist even the mundane in everyday Mormonite lives. Yet we have witnesses like Huntington, Gemmell, Lee, etc.
Why don't you include in your crusade of persecution those that murdered LDS at Haun's Mill?
Oh wait... you aint after truth you just hate LDS and will take the road that will lock step with your agenda.
Why do you need proof to have faith? There is no proof for any religion...
Witnesses. Lee admitted BY had nothing to do with it... then said later he thought BY sent someone to do the dirty work for him yet that is not proof of anything and not true.
@Sk8er408 Hauns Mill had Nothing to do with the 90 women and children and 30+ men that Mormons separated and systematically murdered. Any reading of the MMMassacre will tell you George A Smith preceded the emigrants by days. He spewed lies prior to their arrival. Even some Mormon diaries mention his fire breathing. They had nothing to do with PPratts death. And they didn't say they had the gun that killed Joe. Mormons say all that after they systematically murder 120+ and Kidnapped 17 children
The issue is not the prairie justice... we know that happen. But unlike the murder sanctioned by the state of Missouri on LDS the MMM was not sanctioned by the Church but locals that took law into their own hands.
anything that can me made into a conspiracy you'll make it.
@IExposeMormonism What do you mean it had nothing to do with it? Haven't you ever heard of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? With all the crap the Mormons had to put up with before going to Deseret Territory, and now, they were going thru the same crap again, this time against the United States Army. It wouldn't take much to make any man crack.
@lindalds None of the emigrants were part of Haun Mill. Nor with Parley Pratt. Nor JSmiths death. "Cracked"? When you carefully craft a mass murder, separate the women, children and men, when you have numerous Mormon prayer circles asking Mormon God to help them, when you carefully cover up the crime and blame those not responsible, when you kidnap 17 kids, and blame the Indians for that, too, when you bill the people of the USA for their care, and more, that sounds like conspiracy, not cracking
@IExposeMormonism Maybe they weren't. However, supposedly some of the Fancher/Baker party bragged all down the trail from Salt Lake to Mountain Meadow, that they were the ones who killed the prophet Joseph Smith, that they were the ones who chased the Mormons out of missouri, and so, it wouldn't matter if they were there or not. PTSD does not care who's who, if you crack, you crack on who ever is nearest. What did the Mormons who were killed and raped, etc., at Haun's Mill ever do to that mob?
@lindalds The emigrants did and said Nothing. It was George A Smith who spewed lies concerning them, GAS bag was sent by Briggyon a mission to slander them and set them up. Read John D Lee's confession for some of the flavor of GAS bags rhetoric. There are many witnesses saying the emigrants were good people and did nothing. But You'll never know that because your sources are all Mormonese. They were set up so when they arrived at a town GAS bag had the people primed with lies. That's the truth
@IExposeMormonism You say my sources are all Mormonese. Yours are all anti-Mormonese. And no other wagon train of pioneers to California were ever killed by Mormons. They didn't need to.
WE didn't kill anyone. It was done over 150 years ago. The LDS church has done what it can. People need to move on. The Mormons have, they endured much much more and much worse, and no one ever apologized to them (except the state of Illinois).
@IExposeMormonism although I suppose we should be grateful that, in 1976, the governor of the state of Missouri did rescind the 1838 Extermination order, which made it legal, so to speak, to kill a Mormon just because they were Mormon.
@lindalds PTSD doesn't "Cause" people to separate 90 women and children and men and slaughter them. It doesn't cause Mormon prayer circles for Mormon god to help them succeed. It doesn't cause a vast coverup involving 100's of people.The emigrants had NOTHING to do with Hauns mill. They were from Ark, not Ms! The braggarts are the Mormons proud of their deeds and power to conceal.To Conceal is what Mormonism is based on, from the BofM and it's "presence of an absence" to the Abe Papyrus denials.
@IExposeMormonism How do you know none of them were at Haun's Mill? Can you prove it? What about Far West? Crooked River? Parley P. Pratt? (he was killed in Arkansas)
Carthage Jail?
Besides, they didn't have to actually have been there, supposedly they said they WERE there.
@lindalds The emigrants were from Arkansas, not Missouri. They had nothing to do with Parley. How would you like to be condemned to death because you are from Utah? The death sentence, the oaths in the Endowment Ceremony, are rather extreme. The alleged "threats" came from the mouth of GAS bag, not the emigrants. Consider this, The Mormons didn't kill one soldier. They carefully follow them, burned wagons, etc. All at the same time as MMM. There was no PTSD with the Army, which was a Real threat
@IExposeMormonism Wouldn't bother me a bit, since I'm not from Utah. I don't now live in Utah, and I find Utah a nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there again (lived there for about three years).
The Mormons shadowing the Army were under Brigham Young's orders NOT to kill ANYONE. He also ordered the people at Mountain Meadow not killed, but by the time they got the word, it was too late.
@IExposeMormonism If it weren't for the Army being sent to the territory, the Fancher party would have traded for food in Salt Lake City, the same as every other wagon train heading for California, gotten their food, and been on their way, and the MMM would never have happened.
@lindalds The Emigrants entered SLC Aug. 1. The Army was on the plains, Far away. The Fancher train, as opposed to all other trains, did not receive any notice in the news. All those passing thru were in the news. For more than one reason. Yet the largest wealthiest train to Ever pass thru SLC isn't mentioned. But many Mormons under Briggy knew and spoke with the emigrants.Further, on Aug 15 Briggy issues Martial Law. Thus the references to "Needing a pass to travel". Then he issued the 9-14 ML.
@lindalds The 9-14 ML edict is what most of us see. I've posted both M.L. declarations. There was plenty of food to trade, not trading had nothing to do with supply nor the actions of these people. They were maligned by the murdering accusers, JD Lee, Haight, Dame, McFarland, etc. All liars covering their crimes. Other so called witnesses were only repeating what GAS bag had spewed in their path as the moved slowly behind the lying filth of Smith. The Army camped at Ft Bridger in November.
@IExposeMormonism Lastly, ask yourself, since the men were so mean, why, when JD Lee entered the train using Freemason signs of peace and security and carrying a false white flag, why not just separate the 25 living men, leave a guard on the mothers and children, march the men up the road, have the "Indians" (Painted Mormons), jump out and kill them and leave the other Innocents alone? Why the cunning to kill 90+ women and children? Why is that? Mothers and children weren't poisoning creeks, etc
@IExposeMormonism I suppose the same questions can be asked about Haun's Mill and Far West, etc. False white flags, why not just separate the men from the women and children? No, the women weren't killed in Missouri, just raped and terrorized. kicked out of their homes to die of exposure.
There is enough guilt and excuses and wrong doing on both sides. Personally, I really don't know what else the church can do, especially for those who were not affected in any way whatsoever.
@lindalds They had nothing to do with Hauns Mill, nor with Parley nor with Joe.Only GAS bag said all that., And his accomplices. It was a set up. They did nothing. They were condemned on the basis of the state they lived in. And lied about. Should all Mormons be killed because of the MMM? Should they all be killed because of the Big Plans Joe had to "take over the USA and the world? Should all Mormons be killed because of Warren Jeffs? And so on. And there was no false white flag at Hauns, etc
@IExposeMormonism Like I said, I don't know what more our church, or it's members, who had nothing to do with the MMM, can do to pacify anyone, especially those who were never affected by it (probably just like you).
We will never know the true facts of this story, especially in this life time.
@lindalds The world is affected by crimes like MMM. The world needs to pay attention,it will happen again. The Mormon god lives on blood, lies, power.Anyone who reads this crime is affected by it.We know the truth, it's the Mormon hierarchy than conceals the truth. But the truth always comes to light. he MMM exposes Mormonism just as the Catholic church is continually exposed by it's past, its homosexual priest cult, and so on. True Christianity is found here and there, not in vast bureaucracies
@IExposeMormonism The world is affected by crimes like Haun's Mill. The world needs to pay attention, it will happen again. Your god lives on lies, and hatred. Anyone who reads this crime is affected by it. We know the truth, it's the anti-Mormons who try to deflect the truth, but the truth always comes to light. Haun's Mill exposes anti-Mormonism.
@IExposeMormonism The Mormon God? The Mormon God is God the Father, and he hardly lives on blood, lies, and power (I assume you were referring to the evil kind of power). The church as an organization was not responsible for the MMM. It was the members in the area who decided to attack the Francher party. BY sent a letter telling the members to let the party pass through, but the letter arrived a day too late.
@IExposeMormonism MMM didn't expose anything, except the misdeeds of church men who should have known better. And the film didn't force the church into anything. I knew as a kid that a wrong-doing had occurred. I was taught that in seminary back in the mid-sixties.
@JediMormon Things like this don't happen without the approval and fore knowledge of the hierarchy, and Brigham knew and approved it. It was carefully covered up by hundreds of people. Those exposing the crime did so at risk of their lives. At least 55 Mormons under the oaths of the Endowment Ceremony did this. Everyone one of the participants were "Endowed".
@IExposeMormonism ... Now you are guessing at the matter. No one has ever turned up any proof that BY knew and approved of the MMM. Quite the contrary, he sent a message--that arrived a day late, unfortunately--to let the Francher party through. Your seem so set on "exposing" Mormonism, that your sense of truth has disappeared. Sure there was a cover-up attempt, by the local folks who were responsible, not by BY and the hierarchy. Find something else besides a 100 yr old story to nip LDS about.
@JediMormon BY strangle hold on Utah, his theocratic despotism is well documented. He had a Vast spy network including mail service. Huntingtons diary and James Gemmel implicate B.Y. Gemmel says he heard BY say "I'd kill them" in presence of Hamblin, others. D.H. diary implicates BY. BY sent GA Smith south in front of the train to set them up with false stories of chicken snapping and such. BY denial of knowledge of MMM until long after the crime is easily refuted. MMM is the Fruit Of Mormonism
@JediMormon MMM is not a nip it is an abomination and the Fruit of Mormonism. It will Never go away. It is the sin qua non of Mormonism. Brigham not knowing of MMM is like his denials of not knowing until long after:: A pack of lies easily disproved. As to his having Prior knowledge, I think Gemmel and Huntington would be acceptable witnesses in a court of law. But one must tell the truth.
@Sk8er408 ... They can't produce it, because no such order exists. And it doesn't exist because Brigham Young didn't order any murders. All our anti-Mormonism friends have going for them is speculation, guessing, and big imaginations. The film cost over 11 million to make, and took in less that 1 million at the box office. Why? Because sensible folks saw it for what it was: a blatant attack on the church for something that happened over 150 years ago.
@JediMormon What difference does it make? You don't want an answer, anyway. You only want something to try to debunk, evidenced by your cantankerous, belligerent conversation below with IExposeMormonism (and others), who's already said what there is to say...why reinvent the wheel? IEM knows just as much if not more than I do about it. It's not exactly a secret, you know. That's all I need to say.
@wannawatchu66 Actually, I'm VERY interested in source material. The trouble is, for most claims made by anti-Mormonism folks, I've found that they can't provide me with any source information. And if they do, I usually end up on some anti-Mormon web site that doesn't state their sources either. That's why I told IEM that no one has ever turned up any PROOF that BY knew and approved of the MMM. So, of course I'm going to debunk it--because it's not the truth. It's just unsubstantiated claims.
@(cont.) Which brings me to another anti-Mormonism conundrum: lying about LDS beliefs and doctrine. Happens all the time, and they see nothing wrong with doing it. They think that God will justify the lie if it results in someone leaving the LDS church. Every anti-Mormon I've ever asked (except one), has admitted to doing it.My question is, why should I knowingly follow the advice of an admitted liar? No...I'm staying right where I'm at. :o)
@JediMormon But you've misjudged me...I'm not an "anti-Mormon" actually. I consider myself "pro-Mormon" in that I want LDS (you included) to know the Jesus of the Bible, not the Joseph Smith counterfeit. But, you made it clear that that won't happen, which I respect, so I left it alone.
@wannawatchu66 ... I already know of the Jesus of the Bible. I've read about him in the Bible many times. And Joseph Smith is not a counterfeit Jesus. LDS view JS as a prophet of God, not someone who takes Jesus's place. You are anti-Mormonism (nothing wrong with that) in that you disagree with Mormon beliefs and doctrine.
@JediMormon while he cries "anti anti " . On the subject of evidence mormons fail to produce any & of lying, your way out front on that one too.
Never mind that there is no evidence for the Book of Mormon ( God will tell you ) Never mind that Joseph Smith is a known charlatan and con man with a colourful history. Never mind that Brigham Young was a known liar , polygamist and crook.
@kramd1 hummm....so God's word is not good enough? As to the other charges, I'm longing for the day when someone on this site actually comes up with proof, instead of mere words. (i.e. "known charlatan", "con man", "known liar", etc. Anyone can make something up.
@JediMormon Your biased blind faith provides zero evidence.
Smiths life reads like a insane sexual predator. But i suppose your not allowed to delve in to the truth. I suppose your " fuzzy feel good evidence" is all you need.
1. The book of Abraham is a complete fake. Osiris is not Abraham.
@kramd1 No, the anti-Mormon bastardization of Smith's life reads like that. It's what you want to see and believe. Not necessarily what's real.
Joseph Smith was not a perfect person and no Mormon would, or should, say any different. But he was NOT the sex-crazed villan that you all want him to be.
@kramd1 Hummm...you have just shown your complete lack of knowledge of the LDS religion. You know, it wouldn't hurt you to actually visit the LDS web site and find out what we teach and believe. And it's far more than just "fuzzy feel good evidence". I'd explain it, but (no offence intended) you probably would not understand it. Moroni 10:4-5 get to the heart of why the LDS belief is so strong.
The Mormons took the small children from the wagon train & refused to give them up to family that wanted them back. Then, when US military forced them to hand them over, Mormons BILLED the families for the food & clothes they "used up" while held captive. The Mormons killed all wagon train children over age 8 & all mothers; they took the cattle, food, money, furniture, clothes & horses. What holy reason is there, that can justify any of that. NONE. To lie, to ignore truth = illogical, immoral.
Brigham didnt lose his testimony. If you read his spiritual teaching one cam clearlu see it only became stronger but of course he suffered greatly, lost some of his best friends. I believe it made a big impact on him but it didnt turn him into a murderer.
@bilavideo That being said...there is no member today that I've talked to that thinks that the MMM or any of the bloody early history of the Church was a good thing...and they would never condone such an act today. But things were very different back then. And the membership as a whole was very different, especially spiritually and emotionally.
Now, if y'all could just do something about that wackadoodle GLEN BECK. He really gives the LDS Church a BAD NAME...seriously.
@bilavideo Well, Brigham Young's hatred for the "Mericons"(US citizenry and govt.) was spawned at the martyring of Joseph Smith. And he DID use words like "American Jihad" and that he wanted to act as an "American Mohammed", and that the Church was enemies of the USA. The people in the MMM were doomed as soon as they said some of them were from Missouri.
I'm sure the murder of Parley Pratt had something to do with it, but it was mostly the LDS hatred of most things "Mericon".
@Fasty63 I am also a former member. I didn't make it as far as going to Temple or on a Mission, because I never really believed in the whole overall "story"...not the Joseph Smith part, but the Jesus part. I refuse to believe in a god that's going to SACRIFICE his "only begotten son" for ANYONE, let alone us ungrateful deceitful mean assed humans. I've heard the story from all angles and I just don't buy it.
That being said, I still have a big warm loving spot in my heart for the Church.
People must understand that the membership of the LDS Church is quite different from the membership of the past. No one today would condone such a thing, certainly the Prophet, or the 12. I don't know of any LDS member living today that would say the Mountain Meadows Massacre was a "good" thing, or even deserved. But that is not the case with the membership of 1857. Brigham Young was an angry bitter, made evil by that bitterness. I believe he lost his testimony and blamed America for it.
I'm a little confused as to why people are discussing polygamy in the comments section of this video, which is about something completely different. It is unknown why these mormon settlers attacked those people, but it was not because Brigham Young told them to. It could possibly be that all the strain of walking for a thousand or more miles, coupled with the persecutions, burnings, beatings, and countless mobs finally made some people snap.
Once again conjecture formulated from second hand accounts.There is no physical evidence and this would come in the form of genetic evidence.None.Endofus, I doubt youve done any objective research and have approached this matter from a negative point of view.
There is no real evidence to support your claim except second hand accounts. He did practice Polygamy but did not force himself on any woman as some would suggest. There is simply nothing solid to back this up and I challenge you to deliver anything of the sort. Joseph was loved by many and also hated by many. Not suprising seeing that he help found a religion which is truelly unique in Christian history after the creation of the Catholic Church. Before that many Christian groups shared similar.
Brigham believed that this could destroy the Church seeing that another crazed fanatical mob could march on Utah and repeat the episodes experienced to the east. Of course once again I believe no mercy would be shown if that did occur. Critics often use unreliable sources and present conjecture as if it is fact. Also they are harsh with all Mormons ignoring that this was done by a few and ignore the terrible misdeed done against Mormons, justifying the murder of Mormons including children.
@llewellleo No one sane and rational justifies the murder of Mormons and or mormon children. What you fail to consider is that Joseph Smith and his threats to neighbours brought resentment from those he was threatening with his idiotic claim as prophet.
How many people died on the Trek orchestrated by Brigham Young? It was unnecessary, those remaining Mormons who rejected Brighams claim of successorship chose not to go West lived without persecution.
Brigham did avoid the subject for a while and certainly did not give it much press firstly because of his desire to protect his people from possible mob retaliation, secondly an armed force was marching on Utah threatening the territory and thrirdly the people simply did not have the resources. Its also a fact that the very people involved having heard Brighams feelings on the matter made an effort to cover up the details.
What opinion is that exactly if you would please clarify your statement. We are not encouraged to criticise leaders and if we have a problem to direct it to them directly so as be able to find solutions. Leaders by my experience are generally very understanding men, not perfect but dedicated to improving themselves. We are well aware that our leaders do make mistakes but when it comes to the MMM the attack is not justified seeing that the critics do not consider all factors.
@llewellleo "Leaders by my experience are generally very understanding men, not perfect "
Which leaders are you thinking of? I would say Joseph Smith was a lying con man who interfered with womens lives in cult sexual predatory style. He made Emma's life such a hell that she even denied he was a polygamist throughout her life and hid it from her children such was her total repulsion of it and his behaviour in marrying his housemaids and such. (14 year olds also??)
And what opinion is that exactly.? Perhaps you would like to clarify your statement. We do not scriticise leaders wgen it comes to priesthood leadership but we can certainly not agree with all opinions they held in their life times. When it comes to MMM there is no solid evidence that Brigham endorsed or encouraged it but yes he did do all to protect the innocent part pf the Mormon faith which had not sullied their hands.
We respect others freedom to believe as they please but we share what we believe because we know it can change men and bring peace to the world. Chucrh members are not perfect beings an even though taught solid principles still have the freedom of will and at times rebel and falter. Critics take the misdeeds of these men and want people to believe that this is how the Church operates ignoring that these men in fact acted against the principles taught in the Church meaning it does not endorse.
You are trying to create an image of mormonism which is false exposed and I believe you well know it is not as you say but it suits you to use whatever litlle you can grab because you are desperate and as I said before you will fail.
Do you believe that murder of Mormons and the extermination order by governor Bogsswas justified.Three days after Boggs signed the extermination order, a unit of the state militia killed 17 Latter Day Saint men and boys in the Haun's Mill Massacre. Missouri Governor Christopher Bond declared that was a violation of the Constitution making Governor Boggs in essence a man not dissimilar to Hitler in his views to Mormons.
When Brigham heard what Lee had done he was furios and honestly believed it could destroy the Church even though it was not endorsed by the Church. He did all in his power to protect his people who would have suffered innocent or not if another mob of religious anti mormon fanatics entered Utah for revenge. He had seen his people massacred and chased out of their homes to the east, they fleed to Utah for liberty of religious intollerance.
Concerning the MMM itsa historical fact that it was not endorsed by the Church and a fantacy that it was by Brighams command. A study of Christianity over the almost 2000 years of its existence is almost like reading a horror novel as many were slaughtered or forced to become Christian and this in the name of Christ who taught a more loving and mercifull way.
Concerning the MMM itsa historical fact that it was not endorsed by the Church and a fantacy that it was by Brighams command.
Your beloved Dallin Oaks has a different opinion..... but of course, Oaks also claims that "it is wrong to criticize LDS's leaders.......... even if thew criticism is valid"
You keep talking about polygamy which is still practiced in parts of the world but not by members of The Church of Jesus Christ. It was practiced at a time with a purpose and then by the Lords command ended. You forget that polygamy was practiced by Abraham, Jacob and others in the Old Testament so essentially you are condeming these men as well. So the Church is not in line with Christianity which was altered dramatically after the 4th century, is that a problem for you and why.?
I hometaught a man tonight who was once a drifter and lived a hard life who today is a happy and changed man due to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the fruit of the Church of Jesus Christ, it changes peoples lives for the better because it is true. Expose, do you believe in the commandment " Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.? The Church stands for good and has so since its foundation.
@llewellleo Yes, generally the Church does stand for good, but through the abuse of one man, no it has not always been that way since it's foundation. As evidenced by this massacre, and the many smaller ones that occurred during the Church's early history. As I said in another post, I think Brig. Young lost his testimony and blamed America for it. Instead of stepping down and admitting that he had lost his testimony he embarked on a vengeful rampage. I feel sad for him.
Hey, there's my new Logo, at minute 1:00, the skull of Mormonism, the gaping maw of the Mormon monster. From William Jarman, 1884, "U.ncle S.am's A.bcess Hell Upon Earth For US...the Mormon Hell on Earth...where Polygamy, Incest, Murder are Practiced..under the All Seeing Eye and sign "Holiness Unto the Lord"" That's most of the title! He was 12yrs in Hell and it was Hell escaping 1880 Utah.
I knew a chap called Mzolisi who no matter the thruth presented would always respond with a insult and one he liked the most was "small man'. Brian is speaking your language apostate, do you not hear him? He is trying to repond on your level which is simply foul and unchristian. He I will not judge because I believe he does not know better but claiming to be an ex-member you have clearly fallen a long way.
A suggested read on Mormon inc. is the August 4, 1997 edition of Life magazine. It covers this subject with a degree of honetsy apostate cannot claim. It is available online. The Church has a lay ministry and yes there is an organisation where folk are paid for their hard work but although it benefits members who are cared for and supplied work it does not enrich the prophet or the 12. Their main concern is a spiritual work and making sure people are lifted.
Your position is based on assumptions and theories developed by folk like the Tanners who often ignored official records so as to promote a negative view of matters for instance concerning the life of Joseph. They cannot be considered as neutral and credible because their whole ministry by which they earn their living is to bring down the Church of Jesus Christ. They do not care if they include a few lies just to give it the spice it needs.
You have declared yourself the righteous condemning anyone who believes in the church and who will not change when you hurl filthy demeaning insults at them. You have ignored certified facts because the Tanners and co considers the entire Chucrh a lie. You suggest people should only read the works of the critics and that the church has no right to defend itself and its leaders. How can one judge a matter fairly when one only hears one side.
Your position is based on assumptions and theories developed by folk like the Tanners who often ignored official records so as to promote a negative view of matters for instance concerning the life of Joseph. They cannot be considered as neutral and credible because their whole ministry by which they earn their living is to bring down the Church of Jesus Christ. They do not care if they include a few lies just to give it the spice it needs.
The wicked? lol. Because we do not make an effort to destroy others morals and still care about families we are considered wicked by those who care little for the souls of others. People are free as it is and can do that already if they please, well the police might disagree with that seeing you need a permit or something like that. The Church membership is over 13 000 000 now and growing so not likely apostate. Victor, that is disputable and doubtfull seeing that records show diffrently.
@llewellleo we do not make an effort to destroy others morals ?? Everything in 1800 yrs of Christianity is, in Mormonism, 180 degrees out:: The branches of the Mormon tree: Polytheism, Polygamy, Blood Atonement, Universe is pre existing, God is a god perfected by works, Adam-God, violent oaths in secret. where does one stop with Mormonism? The fruit of the Mormon tree is the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
I want all men to know that Jesus Christ lives and that He loves you. If you would but soften your hearts and allow Him to teach you, to lead you. Oh what a terrible winter is upon the earth and what howlings and sorrows but the fire of the gospel will not be extinguished and may men turn to the light and know its warmth.May all sleep in peace tonight.
I agree with all that--execept, that the "fire" of Joe's gospel WILL be extinguished. The light of which you speak is NOT in the secretive fraud of Mormonism. May you sleep well...knowing that Mormonism's days are to end shortly--with nary a whimper...
And all lovers of freedom will be dancing in the streets singing "The wicked witch is dead".
I watched a Christmass tale and I was reminded how we sometimes harden our hearts and become growling, mean and without pity for those who are suffering out there alone. Apostate, I do not know what has made you so bitter that you cannot see but one thing I do know is that the love of Christ can heal all wounds and bring peace. You are that one sheep and the Master is coming for you as He did for me for I was as you are today but now I am free and wish the same for you.
Interesting that you compare yourself to the Saviour who was a man of purety and whos main goal was to enlighten men. You use foul language and hurl insults at those who dare contadict you. One wonders who the true pharisee is here?! Chest beating? In the Church of Jesus Christ we recognise that all men are Gods children, that we are no better than our brothers and that we have a duty to be more Christ like althoug being imperfect men we do not always succeed but with effort we improve.
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ldsmexlife 1 week ago
the lds church is slime, they are lairs, lds is a cult....they are racist , pedophiles, The LDS church has not changed, native Americans had nothing to do with the murderers. Listen how the morman cult tries to make itself a martyr ion this video. I lived in SLC and worked with Mormons. i was told by a mormon that Hitler was a hero. Hitler had thje right idea. They believe that whites are the delightsome and blacks are children of satan. they believe jesus and satan are brothers, what a joke
bluepastry 1 month ago
@bluepastry please we don't believe black are Satan and we don't believe Hitler had the right idea, And since you could not say anything positive about us like the fact we help people who are poor or help children find the right family to live with leads me to believe you don't work with Mormons and you just made all that up just to stir up criticism.
yellowcorba1 2 weeks ago
i wonder why the first nation people disliked the American settler who where invading Mexican territory, i wonder.
karmic payback is a bitch the US government have still not learnt to keep out of other peoples land lol.
thuggie1 2 months ago
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There is not one part of mormon history that mormons are not in denial about.
The Joseph Smith story and Mountain meadows Massacre are full of lies denial and rationale.
Don't take my word for it just read the their own church history and compare that to what will tell you.
like this comment:
"it did NOT happen at the blessing of Brigham Young and the church leaders"
kramd1 2 months ago
i will recover from the pain and some day my love ones will be out of this church. i know evil exist and i know these leaders lead people to a dark place. away from truth. get to work now. you have some changes to do in your books etc
pepstuge 3 months ago
maybe its time for the church to do what it did so well in the past. pack up and move some place away from the world. but a little thing called the internet. and a big thing called GOD will follow you. and when you get pride full again there will God be to push you away from humble hearted people who fall for the only true church!
pepstuge 3 months ago
we will be setting next to our brain washed love ones gathering more information. after all it is this church that teaches us to use Christ language and make sure we have the holly spirit. i'm sure with your mantels giving to yo by god and the guide of the holly spirit you will find who these members are. as well as ways to continue to try and cover up truth. we are a predictable church! that well set many free in the end from its grip
pepstuge 3 months ago
finely they told the head of the church to stop reseting retarded stories and try to behave like a normal profit. Ironic that at a time when the truth comes out we have a fat retard for a profit. a church that keeps records of our every move yet they have done such a good job at hiding so much. it has to be of GOD that we get to see what we were giving our faith and money to. Some of us wont have our names removed from the records. but instead
pepstuge 3 months ago
the church has never been clear, honest or true. many of the people in it have held the church with there faith. the last thing and yet the only thing the church could do is shut down and allow members to enjoy the rest of there lives with out false doctrine. but even the leaders are convinced its true so they will try to gather the lost lams and find new victims. hard words for a church who has taken so much from so many!
pepstuge 3 months ago
Now! LATE! this is how this church has always done things. if you ask them about the blacks. they will say thats in the past! insulting from the ex head of the church.
here they try to come out on time before a movie would show the truth.
but its ok. most mormons are blinded with false doctrine so not much well change.
emotions and little feelings in our chest wont hide the truth.
the church has preyed in the hearts of humble people.
pepstuge 3 months ago
Mormons seek the truth and it will set you free. I did and I can see the world for what it truly is. Read the history of the church books and journal entries of those involved in the early church for the answers, its as plain as day. Religion is the commercialization of spiritualism. It has the power to brainwash the masses.
zcxvasdfqwer1234 3 months ago
How many Mormons are dead in NY, Missouri (Hans Mills), Illinois, and the plains between Illinois? A lot more than died at Mountain Meadows, and what about the coming of Johnson's Army and the conduct of the emigrants. Mormonism is not a cult, it is a church, people are free to come and free to leave.
kenatlaw 5 months ago
Q: How many anti-Mormons does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None, actually. They'd sooner stumble around in the dark.
Q: How many Mormons does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None, actually. We don't need one. Our light is eternal.
Just a little harmless humor at the expense of the great, all-knowing (mild sarcasm intended), anti-Mormons.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon juvenile. what is an anti mormon ?
kramd1 7 months ago
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JediMormon 7 months ago
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@kramd1 ... An anti-Mormon (and they do exist) is someone who hates all Mormons and everything about them. An anti-Mormon has nothing good to say about Mormons. To them ALL Mormons are going to hell. Fortunately, true anti-Mormons are small in number. Most "Christians" are simply anti-Mormonism, meaning that they have nothing against Mormon people, but just disagree with our beliefs and doctrines. Hope that helps.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon " Most "Christians" are simply anti-Mormonism " you say. : O
That make mormons anti christian. Last I heard mormons were flat out trying to be accepted as christians . Going around labelling any one who has a differing view as anti christ really does not help your cause.
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 ... When have I ever labeled anyone as anti-Christ? (Hint: I never have.) And most Christians ARE anti-Mormonism, meaning that they disagree with Mormon beliefs and doctrine. That's no slam, just an observation. I never diss anyone's personal beliefs about their own religion. "Trying to be accepted as Christian"? Actually, and despite what others may think, we do believe in Jesus Christ and what he did for us. According to the Bible, that's Christian. :o)
JediMormon 7 months ago
@kramd1 When have I ever labeled anyone as anti-Christ? (Hint: I never have.) And most Christians ARE anti-Mormonism, meaning that they disagree with Mormon beliefs and doctrine. That's no slam, just an observation. I never diss anyone's personal beliefs about their own religion. "Trying to be accepted as Christian"? Actually, and despite what others may think, we do believe in Jesus Christ and what he did for us. And we try to follow his teachings. According to the Bible, that's Christian. :o)
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon even the devils believe in Jesus thats isnt enough.
crowofdeath2 7 months ago
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@crowofdeath2 states that "even the devils believe in Jesus thats isnt enough."
I know many Christians who would strongly disagree with you that believing in Jesus Christ isn't enough. In your opinion, what more is needed?
JediMormon 4 months ago
appointing himself General of the Nauvoo Legion,his order of the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor,Joseph Smith was fined for running an illegal bank, many bankrupted Mormons left the church. Smith married the wives of other brethren members after he had sent them on missions for the lord. Plagiarised masonic secret signs and tokens for adaption and use in his temples rituals. He told allot of lies.
kramd1 7 months ago
@lindalds
For an accurate depiction of the con man j smith, ask his wife about his lies , deceptions and infidelities! Facts are facts.
GlowingMpd 7 months ago
@GlowingMpd His wife is dead. And I don't think she ever said anything like that.
lindalds 7 months ago
I don't ever remember the Catholic Church being confronted about the Crusades or Bloody Mary. It just seems that they always get a pass while when the Mormons kill 130 people during a time of war against the US, they are full of controversy and everyone's like saying "evil" and "dem bad Morms".
masterskyrunner 7 months ago
@masterskyrunner Brought to you by the " Only true church" where God decided that an apostasy occurred ,where the Catholic church is labelled "the great and Abominable" All else have Zero authority to call them selves christian. mmm on the MMM .
kramd1 7 months ago
September Dawn is anti-Mormon propaganda, pure and simple.
lindalds 8 months ago
@lindalds "seventeen children under eight were spared and given to Mormon families. The children were taken to the home of Rachel Hamblin. She later described how the children arrived “in the darkness of night, two of the children cruelly mangled and the most of them with their parents’ blood still wet upon their clothes, and all of them shrieking with terror and grief and anguish.”
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 Yes? And?
lindalds 7 months ago
@lindalds yes and your point is September Dawn is anti mormon propaganda. My point is I don't think so. The children that were spared taken back to mormon town spoke of mormons disguised as indians. How can you not open your eyes. Blinded by mormon propaganda and lies.
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 Yes, it's anti-Mormon propaganda. I'm not saying that it never happened, nor am I saying that these children were not traumatized. But, it did NOT happen at the blessing of Brigham Young and the church leaders. And everyone seems to want to vilify the Mormons, when they pointedly ignore all the persecution that went on BEFORE the MMM.
lindalds 7 months ago
@lindalds Well that's your version. Brigham Young knew about the Baker Finch party travelling thru Utah and had made a request of mormons not to trade supplies with them ( FACT ) . Mormons have their own version of events. Just take a look at the mormon propaganda machine on Joseph Smith. I fails to tell the truth on many many counts ( too numerous to mention) . Brigham Young did nothing to those that were involved in these murders and he certainly knew what transpired if not had a part in it.
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 correction : Francher party
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 Yes, Brigham knew, and yes, he said, don't trade with ANYONE, not just the Fancher party. The territory was under martial law.
No, he knew nothing about it till it was all over. Like I said, I don't know if justice was served, but that should not affect us, because WE didn't do it, and YOU didn't have it done to you.
lindalds 7 months ago
@kramd1 And if WE must assume guilt for it, then everyone else must assume guilt over everything that happened to the Mormons in Missouri and Illinois and Ohio, and everywhere else.
lindalds 7 months ago
@kramd1 Yes, this was a sad note in LDS history. Was justice served? I don't know. But, I'd be willing to bet that those who carried out this terrible crime felt that justice WAS served for all that the Mormons went thru before they came to the Salt Lake and were obviously STILL going thru, with the US Army parked outside the territory, loaded for bear.
So, yes, it is anti-Mormon propaganda. It tells ONE side of the story and very biased against the Mormons.
lindalds 7 months ago
@lindalds Having read allot of material available Mountain meadows massacre I can see that the distortion and convoluted apology that mormons portray is true to form like that of the portrayal Joseph Smith. A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE than what history tells. Why are you taught not to read all that is available ? Perhaps if you had an open mind you would not accuse those reporting the story as anti mormon. I fail to see your JUSTICE reasoning. Are you taught it was justice served ?
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 I SAID, I don't know if justice was served or not.
I THINK that the Mormons THEN might have felt that justice was served for everything that happened to them before, in Missouri and Illinois, and Ohio.
But, who must apologize to whom? WE didn't kill anyone, and no one I know was killed by us. It's like saying that WE must apologize to all African/Americans TODAY for slavery. WE didn't hold any slaves, and THEY were not held in slavery. So, apologize to whom for what?
lindalds 7 months ago
@lindalds Not sure why your talking about apology , I wasn't.
I commented on your take of " September dawn" movie being anti mormon.
Are you taught that mormons were justified in these murders ?
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 Actually, we are not "taught" anything about the MMM, except that it happened. The bit about justification, like I said, is MY OWN THEORY. Nothing more.
lindalds 7 months ago
@lindalds fair enough.
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 ... a common fallacy anti-Mormonism types make is assuming that the LDS church restricts what it's members can and can't read. Nothing is further from the truth. As for what history tells of JS, if you believe every bad thing you read about him, I feel sorry for you. Read about the persecutions he went through. News papers lied about him all the time. Question: if JS never had any gold plates, then why we so many constantly trying to steal them from him? Something to think about. :o)
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon Jedi Mormon. Now there's a combo of fantasy.
Explain then why every mormon photo or film of Joseph Smith shows him translating directly from his gold plates , not via his head in a hat looking thru a stone, his death in Carthage without a pistol, No promo or pics of his many wives, No rolling in the hay with Fanny Alger pics with Emma catching him out, No depiction of the mormon legions with general Smith with sword & full military dress.
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 No photos or films exist showing JS translating. Only painting or drawings. And of course JS had a gun in Carthage. He had every right to protect himself and his friends who were in the jail with him. He also was Captain of the Nauvoo Legion. Your point is?
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon self appointed general, started to print his own currency "anti BANK ing " notes . the bank failed many became disillusioned after loosing all their money, he was to stand trial for the wanton destruction of the the "Navou printing press" he had enraged fellow mormon and others also on the count of polygamy, relatives of the wives, and the Masons were pissed for his disregard of the Masonic oaths that he had plagiarised. Every one at Carthage where Masons.
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 ... *YAWN* ... (rubbing eyes)... is it over yet?
Obviously, you have no comprehension of real LDS history, or of Masonry either.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon so you believe Masonic symbols were a revelation to Joseph Smith. Nothing to do with the fact he gleaned them from the masonic lodge. ? Some how God chose to reveal masonic the signs tokens and symbols to Joseph Smith. " shaking head " wondering if you can think for yourself.
Tell me I'm wrong . you think temple ordinance are not a masonic knock off. Totally inspired of God. While in the grove of trees god scribed the symbols on top of mushrooms for Joseph to eat.
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 The actual symbols are not an issue with me. Symbols can mean whatever the user chooses them to mean. A good example is the inverted pentagram. In the early days of Christianity, it stood for the five wounds of Christ. Then some de-frocked priest drew a goat's head in the middle of it and pronounced it Satanic. All of a sudden, the rest of the Christian world went along with that interpretation, and the symbol turned from something good into something evil. What matters is the covenants.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon Smiths temple signs, tokens and symbols are verbatim Masonic. not revelation it's called plagiarism .
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 children that were spared taken back to mormon town spoke of mormons disguised as indians.
in all the blood and carnage.Seeing their parents beeing slaughtered.These children were somehow able to Know that these people who were supposedly disguised as Indians were in fact Not Indians But were Mormons disguised as Indians?
If this is what you are saying you give us great insight into your prejudiced stupid mind
PS And they were all under 8 yrs old???LOL
I'd suggest you open your mind...
jferristube 2 months ago
@jferristube Your saying the mormons did not dress as Indians ? Are you suggesting that the mormons did not have anything to do with this massacre ?
and your calling me "stupid mind"
Is a stupid mind in your definition one that will believe what they are told and taught evidence is evil.
kramd1 2 months ago
@kramd1 Your saying the mormons did not dress as Indians ?
Now your showing how stupid you are by believeing such of people.
Mormons dressing as indians?
I thought accusers said they used real indians to do their work for them?
Yes Mormons were involved.Its sad it happened but why do christians like yourself condemn ALL LDS for the actions of a few?
Apparently the massacre lasted 4 days.Hardly a massacre in my opinion.Id say bullets had to hav been flyin from both sides.
jferristube 2 months ago
@jferristube "hardly a massacre" ? really and it's ok to lie and kill for the lord. What makes mormons any different than any other religious zealots killing in the name of god ?
kramd1 2 months ago
@kramd1 they didnt kill in the name of the Lord.
Who knows why
There was a lot goin on in those times.Things far worse
Anyway whers yo answer to my statements?
jferristube 2 months ago
@kramd1 Your saying the mormons did not dress as Indians ?
Perhaps! Who knows?My point?How were children younger than 8 able to under all that emotional stress able to identify the perpetrators as mormons?Explain that to me!
Mormons were involved.No denying.
Hitler was a Catholic.Do you condemn ALL Catholics for the actions of Hitler and his buddies.
jferristube 2 months ago
mormons believe jesus and lucifer are brothers, jesus is from the planet Kolob, and that native americans are really israelites whom jesus evangelized after the ressurection. funny. . . none of this is in the bible
spylok85 8 months ago
@spylok85 Mormons believe that EVERYONE is brothers and sisters. Including Jesus, and Lucifer, not Satan. Spirit brothers and sisters, not blood. And everyone knows, being brothers does not mean jack because family can be disowned and dis-inherited.
Kolob is not a planet, it's a star, and it the star closest to where God is.
We don't know if any of the Native Americans today are directly descended from the Lamanites. That does not mean, however, that there never were any Lamanites.
lindalds 8 months ago
@lindalds "its the star closest to where God is". . . according to what? your book of false prophecy written by a con man?. . . and still, none of what you said is biblical. stop worshipping joseph smith.
spylok85 8 months ago
@spylok85 That's what we believe. We of course do not believe Joseph Smith to be a con man (there is no evidence, no matter what false witness you come up with). We don't worship Joseph Smith, any more than you or I worships Peter, Paul, James or John.
lindalds 8 months ago
@spylok85 excatly they are a cult who worship joesph
erinnelson92 8 months ago
@erinnelson92 ... instead of mimicking others, why not do some original research. No one in the LDS church worships Joseph Smith. We worship God.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@erinnelson92 And that comment has just doomed your chances of upholding any argument on this channel and simply made you look ignorant. Good job.
masterskyrunner 7 months ago
They are not Christians they don't believe in Jesus teachings that's why they have to get married in the temple to go to heaven and to become a god in d&c 132 22-23
bobbyraejohnson 9 months ago
@bobbyraejohnson Of course we believe Jesus' teachings, just not your interpretation of them.
lindalds 8 months ago
No duh the church didn't do it, as in the fact that the building didn't do it. The leaders of the religion sent direct orders to Lee to kill them. So yes it was their fault. That's why they covered it up for so long. My great great great grandmother is Trephenia Fancher. One of the 17 children who's lives was spared because they were too young to tell. she was 22 months old. She was the daughter of my great great great great grandfather Alexander Fancher who was the captain of the party
MrBattlebornNV 9 months ago 2
The Mormons ordered the attack, plain and simple, they even dressed like indians to disquise themselves as they fought along sde with the indians. The mormon leaders offered the indians the cattle of the cristians if they would help. John D Lee was the only man who was punished wor the 120 murders of the men, children, and women on 9/11/1857. He was told by the heads of the church to kill them and avenge the blood of Joseph Smith. At Lees trial mormons involved in MMM testified against Lee
MrBattlebornNV 9 months ago 2
@MrBattlebornNV
Who said they were christian?
Lee himself denied that BY know anything about it.
Sk8er408 9 months ago
Muslim terrorist? That is laughable. Where is the outrage for Haun's Mill?
Sk8er408 9 months ago
From llewellleo:
"Brigham didn't lose his testimony...it didn't turn him into a murderer."
Well, according to the facts:
Sept. 1857: Young orders the murder of 120 people in So. Utah.
Aug. 1969: Manson orders the murder of 7 people in So. California.
I'd say this puts Young on a par with Manson, or, Manson on par w/Young, since Young did it 112 years earlier.
wannawatchu66 9 months ago
@wannawatchu66
Where is this order from Young to murder them?
Sk8er408 9 months ago
@Sk8er408 John D. Lee confessed to getting it.
wannawatchu66 9 months ago
@wannawatchu66
Are you sure about that? Do you have a quote?
I do.
"Lee told Brigham Young that the Indians had been solely responsible, that no white men were mixed up in it."
Autobiography of William B. Ashworth 1845-1934
I think you are confusing facts like that above with what Lee thought... he said that he thought BY sent someone to Southern Utah to exterminate those people...
I'd like to see this quote of yours...
Sk8er408 9 months ago
@Sk8er408 Rachel and John D Lee say it was in his diaries but Briggy sent some guys to go through them and remove the inappropriate material. Lee didn't directly implicate Briggy in his confession. However, a Real trial would have easily exposed his prior knowledge. And he was in charge, being the theocratic despotic tyranny that Utah was. Dimmick Huntington's diary goes to the issue. And James Gemmell fled for his life:: He said he was in the office when Briggy said "I;d kill them" to Hamblin
IExposeMormonism 9 months ago
@IExposeMormonism
Sure... No sign of it... even from the guy that took the fall... but now the evil BY erased all memory of it... what a kook you are.
Sk8er408 9 months ago
@Sk8er408 "NO sign of it" is perfect Mormonese:: There is never Any evidence for any of the claims made by Mormonism, be it the Mountain Meadows Mass Murders by Mormons, The BofM, the Abe Papyrus, it's all "Faith" the eternal "presence of an absence". Brigham Young covered up many crime. He was the theocratic despotic tyrant over the Mormons. It was he who controlled with an Iron Fist even the mundane in everyday Mormonite lives. Yet we have witnesses like Huntington, Gemmell, Lee, etc.
IExposeMormonism 9 months ago
@IExposeMormonism
Why don't you include in your crusade of persecution those that murdered LDS at Haun's Mill?
Oh wait... you aint after truth you just hate LDS and will take the road that will lock step with your agenda.
Why do you need proof to have faith? There is no proof for any religion...
Witnesses. Lee admitted BY had nothing to do with it... then said later he thought BY sent someone to do the dirty work for him yet that is not proof of anything and not true.
Enjoy your hate.
Sk8er408 9 months ago
@Sk8er408 Hauns Mill had Nothing to do with the 90 women and children and 30+ men that Mormons separated and systematically murdered. Any reading of the MMMassacre will tell you George A Smith preceded the emigrants by days. He spewed lies prior to their arrival. Even some Mormon diaries mention his fire breathing. They had nothing to do with PPratts death. And they didn't say they had the gun that killed Joe. Mormons say all that after they systematically murder 120+ and Kidnapped 17 children
IExposeMormonism 9 months ago
@IExposeMormonism
The issue is not the prairie justice... we know that happen. But unlike the murder sanctioned by the state of Missouri on LDS the MMM was not sanctioned by the Church but locals that took law into their own hands.
anything that can me made into a conspiracy you'll make it.
Sk8er408 9 months ago
@IExposeMormonism What do you mean it had nothing to do with it? Haven't you ever heard of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? With all the crap the Mormons had to put up with before going to Deseret Territory, and now, they were going thru the same crap again, this time against the United States Army. It wouldn't take much to make any man crack.
lindalds 8 months ago
@lindalds None of the emigrants were part of Haun Mill. Nor with Parley Pratt. Nor JSmiths death. "Cracked"? When you carefully craft a mass murder, separate the women, children and men, when you have numerous Mormon prayer circles asking Mormon God to help them, when you carefully cover up the crime and blame those not responsible, when you kidnap 17 kids, and blame the Indians for that, too, when you bill the people of the USA for their care, and more, that sounds like conspiracy, not cracking
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism Maybe they weren't. However, supposedly some of the Fancher/Baker party bragged all down the trail from Salt Lake to Mountain Meadow, that they were the ones who killed the prophet Joseph Smith, that they were the ones who chased the Mormons out of missouri, and so, it wouldn't matter if they were there or not. PTSD does not care who's who, if you crack, you crack on who ever is nearest. What did the Mormons who were killed and raped, etc., at Haun's Mill ever do to that mob?
lindalds 8 months ago
@lindalds The emigrants did and said Nothing. It was George A Smith who spewed lies concerning them, GAS bag was sent by Briggyon a mission to slander them and set them up. Read John D Lee's confession for some of the flavor of GAS bags rhetoric. There are many witnesses saying the emigrants were good people and did nothing. But You'll never know that because your sources are all Mormonese. They were set up so when they arrived at a town GAS bag had the people primed with lies. That's the truth
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism You say my sources are all Mormonese. Yours are all anti-Mormonese. And no other wagon train of pioneers to California were ever killed by Mormons. They didn't need to.
WE didn't kill anyone. It was done over 150 years ago. The LDS church has done what it can. People need to move on. The Mormons have, they endured much much more and much worse, and no one ever apologized to them (except the state of Illinois).
lindalds 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism although I suppose we should be grateful that, in 1976, the governor of the state of Missouri did rescind the 1838 Extermination order, which made it legal, so to speak, to kill a Mormon just because they were Mormon.
lindalds 8 months ago
@lindalds PTSD doesn't "Cause" people to separate 90 women and children and men and slaughter them. It doesn't cause Mormon prayer circles for Mormon god to help them succeed. It doesn't cause a vast coverup involving 100's of people.The emigrants had NOTHING to do with Hauns mill. They were from Ark, not Ms! The braggarts are the Mormons proud of their deeds and power to conceal.To Conceal is what Mormonism is based on, from the BofM and it's "presence of an absence" to the Abe Papyrus denials.
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism How do you know none of them were at Haun's Mill? Can you prove it? What about Far West? Crooked River? Parley P. Pratt? (he was killed in Arkansas)
Carthage Jail?
Besides, they didn't have to actually have been there, supposedly they said they WERE there.
lindalds 8 months ago
@lindalds The emigrants were from Arkansas, not Missouri. They had nothing to do with Parley. How would you like to be condemned to death because you are from Utah? The death sentence, the oaths in the Endowment Ceremony, are rather extreme. The alleged "threats" came from the mouth of GAS bag, not the emigrants. Consider this, The Mormons didn't kill one soldier. They carefully follow them, burned wagons, etc. All at the same time as MMM. There was no PTSD with the Army, which was a Real threat
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism Wouldn't bother me a bit, since I'm not from Utah. I don't now live in Utah, and I find Utah a nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there again (lived there for about three years).
The Mormons shadowing the Army were under Brigham Young's orders NOT to kill ANYONE. He also ordered the people at Mountain Meadow not killed, but by the time they got the word, it was too late.
lindalds 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism If it weren't for the Army being sent to the territory, the Fancher party would have traded for food in Salt Lake City, the same as every other wagon train heading for California, gotten their food, and been on their way, and the MMM would never have happened.
lindalds 8 months ago
@lindalds The Emigrants entered SLC Aug. 1. The Army was on the plains, Far away. The Fancher train, as opposed to all other trains, did not receive any notice in the news. All those passing thru were in the news. For more than one reason. Yet the largest wealthiest train to Ever pass thru SLC isn't mentioned. But many Mormons under Briggy knew and spoke with the emigrants.Further, on Aug 15 Briggy issues Martial Law. Thus the references to "Needing a pass to travel". Then he issued the 9-14 ML.
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@lindalds The 9-14 ML edict is what most of us see. I've posted both M.L. declarations. There was plenty of food to trade, not trading had nothing to do with supply nor the actions of these people. They were maligned by the murdering accusers, JD Lee, Haight, Dame, McFarland, etc. All liars covering their crimes. Other so called witnesses were only repeating what GAS bag had spewed in their path as the moved slowly behind the lying filth of Smith. The Army camped at Ft Bridger in November.
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism Lastly, ask yourself, since the men were so mean, why, when JD Lee entered the train using Freemason signs of peace and security and carrying a false white flag, why not just separate the 25 living men, leave a guard on the mothers and children, march the men up the road, have the "Indians" (Painted Mormons), jump out and kill them and leave the other Innocents alone? Why the cunning to kill 90+ women and children? Why is that? Mothers and children weren't poisoning creeks, etc
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism I suppose the same questions can be asked about Haun's Mill and Far West, etc. False white flags, why not just separate the men from the women and children? No, the women weren't killed in Missouri, just raped and terrorized. kicked out of their homes to die of exposure.
There is enough guilt and excuses and wrong doing on both sides. Personally, I really don't know what else the church can do, especially for those who were not affected in any way whatsoever.
lindalds 8 months ago
@lindalds They had nothing to do with Hauns Mill, nor with Parley nor with Joe.Only GAS bag said all that., And his accomplices. It was a set up. They did nothing. They were condemned on the basis of the state they lived in. And lied about. Should all Mormons be killed because of the MMM? Should they all be killed because of the Big Plans Joe had to "take over the USA and the world? Should all Mormons be killed because of Warren Jeffs? And so on. And there was no false white flag at Hauns, etc
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism Like I said, I don't know what more our church, or it's members, who had nothing to do with the MMM, can do to pacify anyone, especially those who were never affected by it (probably just like you).
We will never know the true facts of this story, especially in this life time.
lindalds 8 months ago
@lindalds The world is affected by crimes like MMM. The world needs to pay attention,it will happen again. The Mormon god lives on blood, lies, power.Anyone who reads this crime is affected by it.We know the truth, it's the Mormon hierarchy than conceals the truth. But the truth always comes to light. he MMM exposes Mormonism just as the Catholic church is continually exposed by it's past, its homosexual priest cult, and so on. True Christianity is found here and there, not in vast bureaucracies
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism The world is affected by crimes like Haun's Mill. The world needs to pay attention, it will happen again. Your god lives on lies, and hatred. Anyone who reads this crime is affected by it. We know the truth, it's the anti-Mormons who try to deflect the truth, but the truth always comes to light. Haun's Mill exposes anti-Mormonism.
lindalds 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism The Mormon God? The Mormon God is God the Father, and he hardly lives on blood, lies, and power (I assume you were referring to the evil kind of power). The church as an organization was not responsible for the MMM. It was the members in the area who decided to attack the Francher party. BY sent a letter telling the members to let the party pass through, but the letter arrived a day too late.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@IExposeMormonism MMM didn't expose anything, except the misdeeds of church men who should have known better. And the film didn't force the church into anything. I knew as a kid that a wrong-doing had occurred. I was taught that in seminary back in the mid-sixties.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon Things like this don't happen without the approval and fore knowledge of the hierarchy, and Brigham knew and approved it. It was carefully covered up by hundreds of people. Those exposing the crime did so at risk of their lives. At least 55 Mormons under the oaths of the Endowment Ceremony did this. Everyone one of the participants were "Endowed".
IExposeMormonism 7 months ago
@IExposeMormonism ... Now you are guessing at the matter. No one has ever turned up any proof that BY knew and approved of the MMM. Quite the contrary, he sent a message--that arrived a day late, unfortunately--to let the Francher party through. Your seem so set on "exposing" Mormonism, that your sense of truth has disappeared. Sure there was a cover-up attempt, by the local folks who were responsible, not by BY and the hierarchy. Find something else besides a 100 yr old story to nip LDS about.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon BY strangle hold on Utah, his theocratic despotism is well documented. He had a Vast spy network including mail service. Huntingtons diary and James Gemmel implicate B.Y. Gemmel says he heard BY say "I'd kill them" in presence of Hamblin, others. D.H. diary implicates BY. BY sent GA Smith south in front of the train to set them up with false stories of chicken snapping and such. BY denial of knowledge of MMM until long after the crime is easily refuted. MMM is the Fruit Of Mormonism
IExposeMormonism 7 months ago
@JediMormon MMM is not a nip it is an abomination and the Fruit of Mormonism. It will Never go away. It is the sin qua non of Mormonism. Brigham not knowing of MMM is like his denials of not knowing until long after:: A pack of lies easily disproved. As to his having Prior knowledge, I think Gemmel and Huntington would be acceptable witnesses in a court of law. But one must tell the truth.
IExposeMormonism 7 months ago
@Sk8er408 ... They can't produce it, because no such order exists. And it doesn't exist because Brigham Young didn't order any murders. All our anti-Mormonism friends have going for them is speculation, guessing, and big imaginations. The film cost over 11 million to make, and took in less that 1 million at the box office. Why? Because sensible folks saw it for what it was: a blatant attack on the church for something that happened over 150 years ago.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@wannawatchu66 Most "facts" are backed up with sources. Where's yours?
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon What difference does it make? You don't want an answer, anyway. You only want something to try to debunk, evidenced by your cantankerous, belligerent conversation below with IExposeMormonism (and others), who's already said what there is to say...why reinvent the wheel? IEM knows just as much if not more than I do about it. It's not exactly a secret, you know. That's all I need to say.
wannawatchu66 7 months ago
@wannawatchu66 Actually, I'm VERY interested in source material. The trouble is, for most claims made by anti-Mormonism folks, I've found that they can't provide me with any source information. And if they do, I usually end up on some anti-Mormon web site that doesn't state their sources either. That's why I told IEM that no one has ever turned up any PROOF that BY knew and approved of the MMM. So, of course I'm going to debunk it--because it's not the truth. It's just unsubstantiated claims.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@(cont.) Which brings me to another anti-Mormonism conundrum: lying about LDS beliefs and doctrine. Happens all the time, and they see nothing wrong with doing it. They think that God will justify the lie if it results in someone leaving the LDS church. Every anti-Mormon I've ever asked (except one), has admitted to doing it.My question is, why should I knowingly follow the advice of an admitted liar? No...I'm staying right where I'm at. :o)
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon But you've misjudged me...I'm not an "anti-Mormon" actually. I consider myself "pro-Mormon" in that I want LDS (you included) to know the Jesus of the Bible, not the Joseph Smith counterfeit. But, you made it clear that that won't happen, which I respect, so I left it alone.
wannawatchu66 7 months ago
@wannawatchu66 ... I already know of the Jesus of the Bible. I've read about him in the Bible many times. And Joseph Smith is not a counterfeit Jesus. LDS view JS as a prophet of God, not someone who takes Jesus's place. You are anti-Mormonism (nothing wrong with that) in that you disagree with Mormon beliefs and doctrine.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon while he cries "anti anti " . On the subject of evidence mormons fail to produce any & of lying, your way out front on that one too.
Never mind that there is no evidence for the Book of Mormon ( God will tell you ) Never mind that Joseph Smith is a known charlatan and con man with a colourful history. Never mind that Brigham Young was a known liar , polygamist and crook.
You've been duped.
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 hummm....so God's word is not good enough? As to the other charges, I'm longing for the day when someone on this site actually comes up with proof, instead of mere words. (i.e. "known charlatan", "con man", "known liar", etc. Anyone can make something up.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon Your biased blind faith provides zero evidence.
Smiths life reads like a insane sexual predator. But i suppose your not allowed to delve in to the truth. I suppose your " fuzzy feel good evidence" is all you need.
1. The book of Abraham is a complete fake. Osiris is not Abraham.
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 No, the anti-Mormon bastardization of Smith's life reads like that. It's what you want to see and believe. Not necessarily what's real.
Joseph Smith was not a perfect person and no Mormon would, or should, say any different. But he was NOT the sex-crazed villan that you all want him to be.
lindalds 7 months ago
@kramd1 Hummm...you have just shown your complete lack of knowledge of the LDS religion. You know, it wouldn't hurt you to actually visit the LDS web site and find out what we teach and believe. And it's far more than just "fuzzy feel good evidence". I'd explain it, but (no offence intended) you probably would not understand it. Moroni 10:4-5 get to the heart of why the LDS belief is so strong.
JediMormon 7 months ago
@JediMormon are you a Jedi too. may the force be with you. Seems that your prone to make believe.
kramd1 7 months ago
@kramd1 ... A witness from the Holy Ghost as to the truth of something is hardly "make believe".
JediMormon 7 months ago
The Mormons took the small children from the wagon train & refused to give them up to family that wanted them back. Then, when US military forced them to hand them over, Mormons BILLED the families for the food & clothes they "used up" while held captive. The Mormons killed all wagon train children over age 8 & all mothers; they took the cattle, food, money, furniture, clothes & horses. What holy reason is there, that can justify any of that. NONE. To lie, to ignore truth = illogical, immoral.
bookratt 10 months ago
@bookratt Mormons "billed" the families? What air-headed web site did you get that bologna from? I'd like to read it myself. :oP
JediMormon 7 months ago
Brigham didnt lose his testimony. If you read his spiritual teaching one cam clearlu see it only became stronger but of course he suffered greatly, lost some of his best friends. I believe it made a big impact on him but it didnt turn him into a murderer.
llewellleo 10 months ago
@bilavideo That being said...there is no member today that I've talked to that thinks that the MMM or any of the bloody early history of the Church was a good thing...and they would never condone such an act today. But things were very different back then. And the membership as a whole was very different, especially spiritually and emotionally.
Now, if y'all could just do something about that wackadoodle GLEN BECK. He really gives the LDS Church a BAD NAME...seriously.
(from an ex mormon)...
patriotgirl65 10 months ago
@bilavideo Well, Brigham Young's hatred for the "Mericons"(US citizenry and govt.) was spawned at the martyring of Joseph Smith. And he DID use words like "American Jihad" and that he wanted to act as an "American Mohammed", and that the Church was enemies of the USA. The people in the MMM were doomed as soon as they said some of them were from Missouri.
I'm sure the murder of Parley Pratt had something to do with it, but it was mostly the LDS hatred of most things "Mericon".
patriotgirl65 10 months ago
@Fasty63 I am also a former member. I didn't make it as far as going to Temple or on a Mission, because I never really believed in the whole overall "story"...not the Joseph Smith part, but the Jesus part. I refuse to believe in a god that's going to SACRIFICE his "only begotten son" for ANYONE, let alone us ungrateful deceitful mean assed humans. I've heard the story from all angles and I just don't buy it.
That being said, I still have a big warm loving spot in my heart for the Church.
patriotgirl65 10 months ago
People must understand that the membership of the LDS Church is quite different from the membership of the past. No one today would condone such a thing, certainly the Prophet, or the 12. I don't know of any LDS member living today that would say the Mountain Meadows Massacre was a "good" thing, or even deserved. But that is not the case with the membership of 1857. Brigham Young was an angry bitter, made evil by that bitterness. I believe he lost his testimony and blamed America for it.
patriotgirl65 10 months ago
I'm a little confused as to why people are discussing polygamy in the comments section of this video, which is about something completely different. It is unknown why these mormon settlers attacked those people, but it was not because Brigham Young told them to. It could possibly be that all the strain of walking for a thousand or more miles, coupled with the persecutions, burnings, beatings, and countless mobs finally made some people snap.
SakarianOutcast 11 months ago
Once again conjecture formulated from second hand accounts.There is no physical evidence and this would come in the form of genetic evidence.None.Endofus, I doubt youve done any objective research and have approached this matter from a negative point of view.
llewellleo 11 months ago
Comment removed
llewellleo 11 months ago
There is no real evidence to support your claim except second hand accounts. He did practice Polygamy but did not force himself on any woman as some would suggest. There is simply nothing solid to back this up and I challenge you to deliver anything of the sort. Joseph was loved by many and also hated by many. Not suprising seeing that he help found a religion which is truelly unique in Christian history after the creation of the Catholic Church. Before that many Christian groups shared similar.
llewellleo 1 year ago
@llewellleo
Joseph Smith threatend women with eternal damnation if they did to recieve his sexual advances. He was a first class sexual predator.
endofus 11 months ago
@endofus where is your proof? Where do you get your source?
SakarianOutcast 11 months ago
@SakarianOutcast
The Proof is from God, he told me :-)
endofus 11 months ago
Brigham believed that this could destroy the Church seeing that another crazed fanatical mob could march on Utah and repeat the episodes experienced to the east. Of course once again I believe no mercy would be shown if that did occur. Critics often use unreliable sources and present conjecture as if it is fact. Also they are harsh with all Mormons ignoring that this was done by a few and ignore the terrible misdeed done against Mormons, justifying the murder of Mormons including children.
llewellleo 1 year ago
@llewellleo No one sane and rational justifies the murder of Mormons and or mormon children. What you fail to consider is that Joseph Smith and his threats to neighbours brought resentment from those he was threatening with his idiotic claim as prophet.
How many people died on the Trek orchestrated by Brigham Young? It was unnecessary, those remaining Mormons who rejected Brighams claim of successorship chose not to go West lived without persecution.
ElderJoseph 1 year ago
Brigham did avoid the subject for a while and certainly did not give it much press firstly because of his desire to protect his people from possible mob retaliation, secondly an armed force was marching on Utah threatening the territory and thrirdly the people simply did not have the resources. Its also a fact that the very people involved having heard Brighams feelings on the matter made an effort to cover up the details.
llewellleo 1 year ago
What opinion is that exactly if you would please clarify your statement. We are not encouraged to criticise leaders and if we have a problem to direct it to them directly so as be able to find solutions. Leaders by my experience are generally very understanding men, not perfect but dedicated to improving themselves. We are well aware that our leaders do make mistakes but when it comes to the MMM the attack is not justified seeing that the critics do not consider all factors.
llewellleo 1 year ago
@llewellleo "Leaders by my experience are generally very understanding men, not perfect "
Which leaders are you thinking of? I would say Joseph Smith was a lying con man who interfered with womens lives in cult sexual predatory style. He made Emma's life such a hell that she even denied he was a polygamist throughout her life and hid it from her children such was her total repulsion of it and his behaviour in marrying his housemaids and such. (14 year olds also??)
ElderJoseph 1 year ago
And what opinion is that exactly.? Perhaps you would like to clarify your statement. We do not scriticise leaders wgen it comes to priesthood leadership but we can certainly not agree with all opinions they held in their life times. When it comes to MMM there is no solid evidence that Brigham endorsed or encouraged it but yes he did do all to protect the innocent part pf the Mormon faith which had not sullied their hands.
llewellleo 1 year ago
We respect others freedom to believe as they please but we share what we believe because we know it can change men and bring peace to the world. Chucrh members are not perfect beings an even though taught solid principles still have the freedom of will and at times rebel and falter. Critics take the misdeeds of these men and want people to believe that this is how the Church operates ignoring that these men in fact acted against the principles taught in the Church meaning it does not endorse.
llewellleo 1 year ago
You are trying to create an image of mormonism which is false exposed and I believe you well know it is not as you say but it suits you to use whatever litlle you can grab because you are desperate and as I said before you will fail.
llewellleo 1 year ago
Do you believe that murder of Mormons and the extermination order by governor Bogsswas justified.Three days after Boggs signed the extermination order, a unit of the state militia killed 17 Latter Day Saint men and boys in the Haun's Mill Massacre. Missouri Governor Christopher Bond declared that was a violation of the Constitution making Governor Boggs in essence a man not dissimilar to Hitler in his views to Mormons.
llewellleo 1 year ago
When Brigham heard what Lee had done he was furios and honestly believed it could destroy the Church even though it was not endorsed by the Church. He did all in his power to protect his people who would have suffered innocent or not if another mob of religious anti mormon fanatics entered Utah for revenge. He had seen his people massacred and chased out of their homes to the east, they fleed to Utah for liberty of religious intollerance.
llewellleo 1 year ago
Concerning the MMM itsa historical fact that it was not endorsed by the Church and a fantacy that it was by Brighams command. A study of Christianity over the almost 2000 years of its existence is almost like reading a horror novel as many were slaughtered or forced to become Christian and this in the name of Christ who taught a more loving and mercifull way.
llewellleo 1 year ago
@llewellleo Wrote:
Concerning the MMM itsa historical fact that it was not endorsed by the Church and a fantacy that it was by Brighams command.
Your beloved Dallin Oaks has a different opinion..... but of course, Oaks also claims that "it is wrong to criticize LDS's leaders.......... even if thew criticism is valid"
CounterCultureLives 1 year ago
You keep talking about polygamy which is still practiced in parts of the world but not by members of The Church of Jesus Christ. It was practiced at a time with a purpose and then by the Lords command ended. You forget that polygamy was practiced by Abraham, Jacob and others in the Old Testament so essentially you are condeming these men as well. So the Church is not in line with Christianity which was altered dramatically after the 4th century, is that a problem for you and why.?
llewellleo 1 year ago
I hometaught a man tonight who was once a drifter and lived a hard life who today is a happy and changed man due to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the fruit of the Church of Jesus Christ, it changes peoples lives for the better because it is true. Expose, do you believe in the commandment " Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.? The Church stands for good and has so since its foundation.
llewellleo 1 year ago
@llewellleo Yes, generally the Church does stand for good, but through the abuse of one man, no it has not always been that way since it's foundation. As evidenced by this massacre, and the many smaller ones that occurred during the Church's early history. As I said in another post, I think Brig. Young lost his testimony and blamed America for it. Instead of stepping down and admitting that he had lost his testimony he embarked on a vengeful rampage. I feel sad for him.
patriotgirl65 10 months ago
Hey, there's my new Logo, at minute 1:00, the skull of Mormonism, the gaping maw of the Mormon monster. From William Jarman, 1884, "U.ncle S.am's A.bcess Hell Upon Earth For US...the Mormon Hell on Earth...where Polygamy, Incest, Murder are Practiced..under the All Seeing Eye and sign "Holiness Unto the Lord"" That's most of the title! He was 12yrs in Hell and it was Hell escaping 1880 Utah.
IExposeMormonism 1 year ago
I knew a chap called Mzolisi who no matter the thruth presented would always respond with a insult and one he liked the most was "small man'. Brian is speaking your language apostate, do you not hear him? He is trying to repond on your level which is simply foul and unchristian. He I will not judge because I believe he does not know better but claiming to be an ex-member you have clearly fallen a long way.
llewellleo 1 year ago
A suggested read on Mormon inc. is the August 4, 1997 edition of Life magazine. It covers this subject with a degree of honetsy apostate cannot claim. It is available online. The Church has a lay ministry and yes there is an organisation where folk are paid for their hard work but although it benefits members who are cared for and supplied work it does not enrich the prophet or the 12. Their main concern is a spiritual work and making sure people are lifted.
llewellleo 1 year ago
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Your position is based on assumptions and theories developed by folk like the Tanners who often ignored official records so as to promote a negative view of matters for instance concerning the life of Joseph. They cannot be considered as neutral and credible because their whole ministry by which they earn their living is to bring down the Church of Jesus Christ. They do not care if they include a few lies just to give it the spice it needs.
llewellleo 1 year ago
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llewellleo 1 year ago
You have declared yourself the righteous condemning anyone who believes in the church and who will not change when you hurl filthy demeaning insults at them. You have ignored certified facts because the Tanners and co considers the entire Chucrh a lie. You suggest people should only read the works of the critics and that the church has no right to defend itself and its leaders. How can one judge a matter fairly when one only hears one side.
llewellleo 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Your position is based on assumptions and theories developed by folk like the Tanners who often ignored official records so as to promote a negative view of matters for instance concerning the life of Joseph. They cannot be considered as neutral and credible because their whole ministry by which they earn their living is to bring down the Church of Jesus Christ. They do not care if they include a few lies just to give it the spice it needs.
llewellleo 1 year ago
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llewellleo 1 year ago
The wicked? lol. Because we do not make an effort to destroy others morals and still care about families we are considered wicked by those who care little for the souls of others. People are free as it is and can do that already if they please, well the police might disagree with that seeing you need a permit or something like that. The Church membership is over 13 000 000 now and growing so not likely apostate. Victor, that is disputable and doubtfull seeing that records show diffrently.
llewellleo 1 year ago
@llewellleo we do not make an effort to destroy others morals ?? Everything in 1800 yrs of Christianity is, in Mormonism, 180 degrees out:: The branches of the Mormon tree: Polytheism, Polygamy, Blood Atonement, Universe is pre existing, God is a god perfected by works, Adam-God, violent oaths in secret. where does one stop with Mormonism? The fruit of the Mormon tree is the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
IExposeMormonism 1 year ago
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llewellleo 1 year ago
more insults,is that all you have apostate?
llewellleo 1 year ago
This happened b/c Brigham Young ordered it. Blood atonement is a Brigham Young doctrine.
VictorLepanto 1 year ago
I want all men to know that Jesus Christ lives and that He loves you. If you would but soften your hearts and allow Him to teach you, to lead you. Oh what a terrible winter is upon the earth and what howlings and sorrows but the fire of the gospel will not be extinguished and may men turn to the light and know its warmth.May all sleep in peace tonight.
llewellleo 1 year ago
@llewellleo
I agree with all that--execept, that the "fire" of Joe's gospel WILL be extinguished. The light of which you speak is NOT in the secretive fraud of Mormonism. May you sleep well...knowing that Mormonism's days are to end shortly--with nary a whimper...
And all lovers of freedom will be dancing in the streets singing "The wicked witch is dead".
42apostate 1 year ago
I watched a Christmass tale and I was reminded how we sometimes harden our hearts and become growling, mean and without pity for those who are suffering out there alone. Apostate, I do not know what has made you so bitter that you cannot see but one thing I do know is that the love of Christ can heal all wounds and bring peace. You are that one sheep and the Master is coming for you as He did for me for I was as you are today but now I am free and wish the same for you.
llewellleo 1 year ago
And you aint no christian so stop pretending to be one
llewellleo 1 year ago
@llewellleo
And who the fuck are YOU to judge?--arrogant prick...
42apostate 1 year ago
Dude , get some peace in your life.
llewellleo 1 year ago
Interesting that you compare yourself to the Saviour who was a man of purety and whos main goal was to enlighten men. You use foul language and hurl insults at those who dare contadict you. One wonders who the true pharisee is here?! Chest beating? In the Church of Jesus Christ we recognise that all men are Gods children, that we are no better than our brothers and that we have a duty to be more Christ like althoug being imperfect men we do not always succeed but with effort we improve.
llewellleo 1 year ago