Tragedy in Northern Illinois - NIU shooting

[VampiressOnDaProwl]

that event wasnt far from us. it doesnt represent typical northern Illinoians, especially Chicagoans.

it's southern Illinoians that are the majority of dumbass hick paranoid gun owners. lots of Neo-Nazi gun owners but the ones in northern Illinois dont show themselves publicly like in southern Illinois.

Illinois Nazis are pretty shy these days.

except occasional hate speech in surrounding suburbs to remind us all that stupid is as stupid does.

[eric201]

Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I lost fellow students, friends in Cole Hall they are not statistics, they are not political props. Yes we have more gun violence in this country then in any other western counrty, but this was a senseless tragety that could not have been prevented. It doesn't matter how strict the gun laws are in a country, if a person wants to kill people he will find a way to kill people, you pompous ass.

[morthalum]

I don't like guns...

[hpf94]

I must be crazy but i do Agree with this Video, AND IM AMERICAN but oh well

[dfarmer1584]

This is not your concern.

[TheModestAgnostic]

its a free planet ... well it's not. But it should be:-)

[dfarmer1584]

Yes. You certainly are free to express your opinion. I respect that. And I do respect you--very much. You are a very good man. But this video struck me as a bit pretentious sir. You seem to imply that my liberty should be resurrected simply because there exists a significant amount of decay in US culture. You are wrong, imho. The culture issue should be addressed and, above all else, liberty preserved.

Peace.

[dfarmer1584]

*restricted* NOT "resurrected" (how the hell did that happen?--damned spell check)

[TheModestAgnostic]

Lets agree to disagree on this one. I don't feel stongly enough about it to (continue to) piss all my american friends off. Gun deaths in the US barely crack 10,000 a year, deaths related to car accidents, medical errors and the like are orders of magnitude higher. There are plenty worse issues to be concerned about than gun control:-)

[MrsStephanieSnape]

ThaM1lHu stole this video, please report her. She has stolen 100+ other videos in two days

[NurseDischord]

Is the quoted figure the number of registered firearms in the US? I understand that there's a bit of a gun control problem..maybe there are more guns than we think.

Keep up the good work! (Agnostic, that is, not the smugglers)

[TheModestAgnostic]

It's defined in nation master as : Weapon holdings (per capita) (most recent) by country. There isn't a more detailed definition.

[cypherphage]

I was more talking about censorship in Germany than guns, but in regards the gun bans in 1938 went real well...and yes, I do feel I have an inalienable right to defend the only life I get and would more than gladly die defending that right as my ancestors did against Britain. Moreover, all you have offered is a straw man, ad hominem, and a single broad brush statistic that doesn't even make sense in the context you are using it.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Ah come on. There isn't a developed country in the world that has your firearm homicide rate, or your attitude to guns. It's a cultural abberation (like every religion) which you are in ferocious denial about because YOU ARE IN IT. Otherwise you seem like a lovely chap. Seriously, this is not rocket science. Reduce the availibility of guns, and eventually the pump will run dry.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Don't you see the similarity in your stubborn denial of reality, with arguments you've had with creationists!? Thats what you look like to me.

[cypherphage]

Except mine makes sense when charted onto a spread sheet. Again, there have been numerous attempts at gun bans, and the result is just more illegal guns. Further, the trends in violence aren't correlated to guns as I have stated, they correlate to education and poverty as well as to race, age, and gender (meaning that one or more of these may be the realistic cause of the high violence rate).

[cypherphage]

Now, if the entire US had a high rate of violence independent of other variables, your claim that bans would help would be valid. The numbers simply say otherwise...and trying to debate this without using charts is to difficult. How about this, if you make a video to mine, I will make one back utilizing research, charts, sources and the works. I really need to make more videos, so I'd invite you to challenge me. But other than that, I would just say we agree to disagree.

[cypherphage]

I just noticed this...how is it that germany has gun crimes when their statistic says they have 0 guns per million? That said, I realy don't think those statistics realy show the depth of the issue.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Criminals do have guns they get illegally. No doubt about that, the solution however is not to arm the citizenry! You will I hope conceed that the US per capita firearm homicide rate is 6 times that of Germany? Maybe, just maybe availability of firearms is a key factor in that difference? After all, we are not talking about a few % or even 10%'s of %, but several hundred %, and the countries are very comparable.

[cypherphage]

Considering how few freedoms Germans have I think the trade-off isn't a good one...I mean, realistically it would make more sense to illegalize cars than guns from a statistic view. What is the point of being alive if you can't do a damn thing like go to a shooting range (I abhor hunting as it harms animals)? But, again, when you really parse the facts, there is scarce evidence to show gun bans work...and certainly not enough to warrant illegally removing rights from citizens.

[cypherphage]

If you want to be a bit more credible, look up the various gun bans that have already occurred in America as well as regional breakdown of crime, gun ownership, and other relevant factors and then give your analysis of the findings so it can be "peer reviewed" if you will. What you posted here was simply your opinion about guns and it was in no way scientific in its approach. I think that Darwin or Einstein or Newton would frown most at this sort of video and the way you made your claims.

[TheModestAgnostic]

You see now, it's this kind of thing that makes Europeans laugh at Americans. The phrase "how few freedoms Germans have" is just absurd, to anyone with a clue. So Germans can't buy guns & ammo over the counter, but they do still have habeus corpus which you boys actually don't. Owning weapons is not an inalienable right, and it's donwright silly in densly populated industrialised countries like Germany or the US. The stats support my argument. Saying this is not so just makes you look daft.

[newguywiththeglasses]

Ah yes, this will really make the families of the NIU shooting feel better, because nothing sums up a senseless tragedy like "Sticking a hamster up your ass" or "Lighting your farts." I understand your frustration, sir, but do you think it's wise to post this as a video response? My video was made so people can offer words of love and encouragement where this seems like a self indulging political statement. I will not remove it because I believe in freedom of speech, but is this wise, sir?

[TheModestAgnostic]

I think they will feel better if the issue of gun control gets some serious attention. I'm aware my video pushes the boundaries of taste, but I'm comfortable with my comments. If you feel it inappropriate as a response, feel free to remove it, or simply ask me outright and I'll do it. I wouldn't for a minute consider it a freedom of speech issue.

[TheModestAgnostic]

ok, I removed it. I take your point.

[BobTKaye]

Yeah they should just cut off the supply of new guns and new gun licenses (although renewals should still be allowed) and seize any firearms held without a license. Or at least this is what would happen if they considered fewer deaths of children and fewer victims of gun crime a higher priority than appeasing the pro-gun nuts.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Amen to that:-)

[thefakeyeti]

"fewer death of children"

Why is it, CHILDREN are always the cop out in ANY debate?

Violent video games, BAN THEM BAN THEM, Think of the CHILDREN!

Drugs- We don't wan't legal DRUGS, THINK OF THE CHILLIN!

Look at four wheelers, do we NEED them?

But they cause reckless death.. children die on them.. should we ban them?

Rock climbing..

Hell any dangerous activity

[BobTKaye]

Fine, just use 'fewer deaths' instead. I only said children because they're in this example. It does highlight the worst case scenario, but the main point remains valid whether children are mentioned or not.

[thefakeyeti]

And yet my point still remains..

If you use DEATH RATE,

It could justify just about anything..

Should we ban fireworks?

How about camp fires?

Should we be able to ban cigarettes? the cigs, kill 300,000 people a year..

But we realize, that the resources in banning them, outweight the risks of keeping them legal..

[TheModestAgnostic]

What one should do, at a minimum, is learn from countries that do have bans. Guns have a single function; to kill other people, that in my mind is a pretty hefty strike against them right there. Fireworks are at least dual purpose, unlike grenades which (I suppose) cannot be bought over the counter. It's a question of good sense. The US has a firearm homicide 100's of % higher than the norm for the rest of the developed world. Start there.

[thefakeyeti]

What is the largest forest you have been in living in the U.K.?

Minnesota is pratically a big forest.. there are these creatures you can shoot. Bears, deer, rabbits(though a .22 would do)

Though I do admit, one doesn't NEED to hunt.. the SINGLE function of guns is not to kill other PEOPLE..

Also, some people shoot clay pigeons (not as popular as hunting though)

It is a tad bit of a stretch to say "Guns have a single function; to kill other people"

[TheModestAgnostic]

yeah ok ... :-) Good point ... it was a stretch but not one likely to strain anything:-) Besides, I'm not advocating a complete ban, European countries have hunters too, yet somehow we don't have crazy people shooting up schools every 6 months ... and there are more of us. Wierd, huh?

[thefakeyeti]

"Besides, I'm not advocating a complete ban"

Ya someone said in one of the comments "Guns do not belong in the hands of the public" And I guess I ran with that :P

Also, in your video you say switzerland has a higher gun ownership rate..

Though I think I translated that to mean "The swiss are responsible, americans are not.. TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR GUNS!"

[TheModestAgnostic]

Though I think I translated that to mean "The swiss are responsible, americans are not.. TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR GUNS!"

Close enough:-) In most european countries guns are very hard to buy, and they're ownership is strictly regulated. That seems like a reasonable place to start. The US has an akward cultural and constitutional hurdle to overcome, so one can only start small. However, whatever you eventually come up with, you'll never get there if your politicians keep ducking the discussion.

[BobTKaye]

Exactly. thefakeyeti is trying to say that anything that can kill belongs in the same category as things that have a very high kill rate and don't contribute to society. Pretty much anything can kill so obviously noone wants to ban everything. However guns and cigarettes kill millions when used correctly or carelessly and don't contribute anything of value.

[thefakeyeti]

"However guns and cigarettes kill millions when used correctly or carelessly and don't contribute anything of value."

Cigarettes- Good luck banning them. People make it sound like it will be a easy task to ban them. DOUBT IT. our prisons are filled enough.. without adding tabacoo smokers and growers.

Guns- "don't contribute anything of value" Tell that to a woman who was about to be rapped.. but got away due to her GUN

[BobTKaye]

She could have got away by using mace or tasers. The number of occasions where a gun has scared off an attacker or prevented a crime while in the hands of a civilian are dwarfed by the number of occasions where a gun has been used to commit crimes such as rape. It is also a fairly well-known statistic that guns are more likely to kill a member of your own family than an intruder. P.S. I forgot to add an exception to the ban of the police and the army being allowed guns.

[thefakeyeti]

As far as I know, in most countries where there is a ban of guns. The police no longer can carry either..

What do you think would happen?

Police are big enough jerks..

"seize any firearms held without a license"

What should the punishment be for these folks? Prison?

[BobTKaye]

Up to the state, the banning of smoking from public places around here was met with a 'softly softly' approach where prosecution was avoided wherever possible, with only the worst offenders being prosecuted. It's been incredibly effective. They could then make the punishment stricter over time as people get used to the new law and only dangerous people break it.

[TheModestAgnostic]

thats not correct. Ireland and the UK are the only countries I know of that have unarmed police, France, Germany and Sweden for example all have armed police officers, which is exactly as it should be.

[thefakeyeti]

What scares me.. is wouldn't cops be bigger jerks if they know the odds are good I am not carrying e a gun, and they are?

BUT if they know the odds are good I have a gun.. wouldn't they tend to be a bit more polite?

Now perhaps a code of ethics, that have to be STRICTLY followed, or they will get FIRED. Could be set in place

[TheModestAgnostic]

... nothing worse than those rappers, and I'm not keen on hip hop either. Now, that IS a legitimate and defensible use of a firearm.

[JupiterGodZeus]

The right to bear arms is a deeply instilled tradition in American history. In the United States we traditionally have a strong, independent, and free citizenry and a relatively weak, controlled and balanced government. When the government takes your guns away, taxes you to death and imposes all kinds of rules and regulations about where you can or can't smoke, and other methods of control over your ever move, it makes the citizens weaker and the government stronger.

Don't be so pedantic.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Thats just rubbish. White noise. The citzenry would stand a chance against the US military. Your proper defence is a robust democratic system, not a gun. A tyrant in the white house, with a co-operating military and media will not be detered by a few ol' boys with M16's.

[JupiterGodZeus]

250,000,000 weapons in citizens' hands is a mighty force.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Really? How is it then, that in a country awash in arms, a mere 150K troops can oppress a population seething with hatred and resentment? In the US this would be your ENTIRE military and police force. Don't be naive, a modern military is not even remotely phased by a disorganised rabble armed with nothing but automatic weapons.

[JupiterGodZeus]

The only one seething with hatred and resentment is you. Calm down, go jogging a bit or smoke a joint, you're filled with prejudice and anger. America is not the enemy, we're your best friends and allies.

[TheModestAgnostic]

I'm not sure why you think this, you are quite wrong, as even a passing aquaintance with my videos and comments will show, and if it WERE true, surely I'd be thrilled with americans killing each other? Rather than engaging in mutual name calling, let me give you an opportunity to back up, and answer the question posed sensibly. Please, go for it.

[JupiterGodZeus]

The United States military is composed of patriotic American citizens, I was one of them. It is not some cold fighting machine, but rather a society composed of idealistic and committed men and women, and we are not to follow blindly illegal orders from our officers appointed over us. That's one thing, second you're quite right that "fire power" wise the US military is unparalleled even by America's armed-to-the-teeth citizenry, but it is part of our protection never-the-less against bad guys.

[TheModestAgnostic]

hmmmm ... methinks a history lesson is required here. Do you recall from history class a little fracas called "The American Civil War"? If american soldiers are convinced of the necessity by their commanders, by a compliant media & a corrupted executive, they WILL kill american citizens in large #'s, particularly if they are sold the trope that "free-dumb" is at risk. Indeed, various parts of the american military are busily dismantling chunks of your democracy as we speak. Didn't you know?

[JupiterGodZeus]

I see that you're keen on giving "history lessons" to others, that means that you are quite certain of your superiority, very British indeed. Well let this humble and vulgar American retort to the best of his limited abilities then. Lincoln was a great President and the cause of freedom and ending slavery in America while preserving our union was a necessary and just cause. I can sense your contempt and cynicism from here... free-dumb. No wonder you're squandering it all away to Sharia law.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Irish actually. So that comment was sort of hilarious. Lincoln was a great President, and a brilliant human being, but he was also quite convinced that "Negros" were the inferior of whites. His primary driver was to preserve the Union. Besides, the point stands. The citizens of the South were armed AND organised, but they were crushed. Let me ask you a question, as a military person, would you kill americans to quell an insurrection or a secession? Well wouldya?

[thefakeyeti]

Are you sure lincoln was a great president?

He trampled all over the constitution in order to get what he wanted..

He shut down paper presses that disagreed about the war..

[TheModestAgnostic]

Yeah. He had some dreadful and tough choices to make, and much of what he did could have been managed better, not least the military component was completely botched. However, I still consider he did the best he could for the time, and given the situation. Preserving the Union and emancipating the negroes was unquestionably the right thing to do.

[thefakeyeti]

"the negroes"

Is that how people from the U.K. actually talk? Just curious..

In duh states, we always just say blacks and whites..

[JupiterGodZeus]

Look you guys are like Chamberlain and I'm more like Churchill. You think that peace at any cost is always noble and fighting for anything is systematically bad, especially since you feel guilty of your white skin and Western dominance in the world by the same leftist cabal that has instilled in Third World immigrants in the West with an unbearable sense of entitlement and supremacist ideology. You're no rebels or free-thinkers, you are conformists to the leftist herd of Bush-bashers.

[TheModestAgnostic]

... meanwhile back on the gun ownership thread ....

[TheModestAgnostic]

nope .. just being true to Lincolns vernacular ... and I'm IRISH. You people are straining my multi cultural veneer to breaking point.-)

[JupiterGodZeus]

We have different traditions, different histories. America is a nation based on cowboys and the Wild West, we are a free society based more on self-reliance than on a nanny government that takes care of us from cradle 'til grave. We are a different culture. Guns represent our spirit of independence and freedom.  In Europe you have a duty to retreat in the face of bullies. In America there is no duty to retreat, we escaped once to the USA we're never backing down again. Victim vs gun owner.

[TheModestAgnostic]

and are you culturally incapable of sensible change? The US used to be a nation where everyone rode horses, made their living through agriculture, and where no one watched television. How things change, eh? Guns are a problem in your society, I'm just trying to introduce an objective perspective. Americans like yourself are as deluded by your cultural norms, as any fundamentalist is by their religious dogma.

[JupiterGodZeus]

Here you go again a leftist making a moral equivalence between islamic terrorists and the USA... shame on you! Drunk driving kills thousands of people each year, alcohol is a major source of death, crime and accidents costing our societies billions in money and more importantly thousands of lives. Should the government stop you from drinking your Guinness before you start hitting your wife? Bad people will always be armed, and the police is not going to be around to save my ass. Period.

[TheModestAgnostic]

erm .. eh .. wot?!! I meant religious fundamentalists in general, christians have them too & I had christians in mind when I posted the comment. You ARE something of a leaper to conclusions. Everything is bad for us in one way or another, too much sugar, too little salt yaddya yaddya yaddya. It's a question of striking a balance. If the US homicide rate is 5 or 10 times worse than comparable countries, you need to change something. It's just common sense, not a conspiracy. Sheese lighten up.

[JupiterGodZeus]

The general tendency of Europe is to become more and more submitted, you give up your right to defend your home, your person and your family. Then you give up your economic power in the name of heart-bleeding social concern for "poor victims" who end up abusing the system and sucking you dry, while penalizing those who work hard (socialism). This slippery slope is now leading Europe to loose its sovereignty, its culture, its values in the name of tolerance to Third World invaders. No thanks!

[TheModestAgnostic]

Oh dear this is just pure stereotype. Yeah we are all quaking in our boots here, slaves to Shariah law. Help, help! Does your hysteria have no boundaries at all?

[JupiterGodZeus]

Stereotype my ass, I know Europe very well and I see what happens there with my own eyes frequently. Women get harassed or even physically attacked by groups of muzzie youth if they dare look at them in the eyes. Crime statistics don't lie, and they are probably depressed, the media turns a systematic blind eye, the liberal governments are in total denial. Churchill too was called a hysteric, a hate-monger even when he warned about the dangers of Nazis... We're witnessing Euro-balkanization.

[TheModestAgnostic]

You've pierced the veil of secrecy. It's all a massive conspiracy. Like everything else. 450 million Europeans can't wait for the 20 million "muzzies" to take over. Nice word that, revealing. Sigh :-( The scale and depth of your delusion is spectacular, please tell me you are born again christian or something, I shudder to think you might claim to be an atheist.

[JupiterGodZeus]

Does it make you feel better about yourself to adopt a sarcastic tone, is that your systematic place of refuge when facing a reality that you just cannot fathom due to your lack of perspective and constantly basking in denial-land? There are 38 million muzzies in Europe, 67% of them support terrorism, they reject our values totally, they "demand" systematic concessions for Europe to change its ways to fit its new-arrivals, they multiply at a rate three times superior, and are crime-prone. Facts.

[TheModestAgnostic]

These are not facts. The are not even averages. 38 million people, spread across 30 different countries are not a monolithic block. It is also an act of stupendous statistical ignorance, to take any metric and extrapolate linearly. Plenty of studies have been done showing significant differences between European muslims, & I'd suggest you look these up rather than indulging your Halo 3 fantasies any further.

[JupiterGodZeus]

I'm not a charity, bye.

[TheModestAgnostic]

You got that right. It's something. A consolation prize is in the post:-)

[TheModestAgnostic]

The EU country with the largest muslim population is France. Thats about 10%. Significantly less than 40% of these muslims support full blown Sharia law. France could become majority muslim in about 2050. Then assuming absolutely nothing (yeah right!!) had changed, you'd have about 25% of the electorate in favour of Sharia. Even fascists require some electoral success to achieve power, so rest easy, the nasty muslims are not coming. As for the sarcastic tone? I saw your YT page, nuff said.

[thefakeyeti]

I have yet another question..

This is assuming you are against ALL forms of gun ownership..

How would you plan on taking the guns away from the people?

I am sure some people would be willing to KILL/die for..

People would still break the law.. meaning more people in our jails, or PRISONS..

There would have to be another task force, just in order to deal with the eradication of Guns..

Guns from the military probably would disappear at a higher rate..

[thefakeyeti]

There would be yet another reason to stop and search our vehicles.. another reason to obtain search warrants for our houses..

Basically:

I can't picture the people sitting back with the atitude of "Aww they are just taking our guns, here you go.. i also have some in my shed!"

And I can't picture our government being civil about taking our guns.

[TheModestAgnostic]

I would recommend that a phased and upfront approach be taken. The first stage is to make purchase of new guns and critically ammo, much harder. A few gun companies might go bankrupt, but I'd consider that an actual plus.

[thefakeyeti]

I know you find it laughable..

But living in northern minnesota, where most people are against gun control...

I really do believe our fore fathers had a check and balance system . Part of that balance is, letting the civilians own guns.

Jefferson said things like this: (quots note exact)

When a government fears it's people, there is freedom. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

the tree of liberty must be cleansed by the blood of patriots and that of tyrants..

[thefakeyeti]

It is imbeded in us, that the civilians should have the right to own guns..

It may be an "unrational" idea..

And the worse cause scenario with out guns. But frankly, the worse case scenario I can think of with our current guns.

I would prefer the latter.

I love my country, but quit frankly, I really dislike our government.

Guns are so imbedded in us. That I really do believe, if they took away our 2nd ammendment, MANY of my friends would go down fighting.

[TheModestAgnostic]

I would resist the temptation to quote the "founding fathers" like scripture. These guys were wrong about plenty, take slavery for example. We need to consider this question in the light of what we know now, not what clever people in the 18th century thought.

[thefakeyeti]

Alright, I will give you that much..

Maybe I should rethink my readyness to quote the fore fathers like they are profits..

"to consider this question in the light of what we know now"

I also do that, and I think these certain quotes still have value today.

What I do know now, is government is getting bigger. And I doubt taking away guns, is going to help the situation.

[thefakeyeti]

now..

i am split on whether we should have the right to conceal fire arms..

[CommentorX]

I know several workers at Colt Manufacturing in Connecticut that would disagree with that point. Of course, it's much easier to be the crusader when it's not your job on the line, isn't it, Agnostic?

[TheModestAgnostic]

Sure it is!! Thats what objectivity is all about.

[EmperorEva0001]

There are plenty of gun laws, but the more gun laws don't really help. I wish i could find some better statistics that show the gun deaths are related to something like gang violence, or from high crime rates, or from higher concentrations of drug attics. I'm not sure what the cause is but i don't think its can be helped with out lawing guns or making them harder to get. It would just leave all the criminal more criminal and non criminals a lot weaker. I really do wish something can change.

[TheModestAgnostic]

This is just nonsense, if this were true we would see the reverse of what we actually see in the developed world. Tougher gun laws, mean fewer gun deaths.

[thefakeyeti]

Well that is just common sense, the fewer the guns, the fewer there is gun deaths..

BUT

What is the rate of armed robberies of stores? (doesn't have to be with a gun,a swordw would do)

What is the rate of house robberies?

Car jackings?

Sure gun deaths might go down, but if all these go UP. I wouldn't think it was worth it.

Think if 90% of the U.S. houshold had a gun in their home. Wouldn't you think twice before bursting in?

[EmperorEva0001]

You don't really understand that you don't need to legaly buy guns to get them. In any state you can easily get guns illegaly. Making it harder to get them makes it harder to control the sales. And as you said with switerland, it doesn't mater how many guns the people have. What they need to focus on is start trying to lower crime rates, gang activity, and try to stop the war on drugs creating so many deadly criminals. There are more factors than just not letting as much people geting guns.

[TheModestAgnostic]

This is of course true and quite reasonable. Some factors are more heavily weighted than others though, and availability of guns is a major player. Why else would schools have metal detectors? To keep out the guns, guns so readily available that 6 year olds have brought them to school and shot playmates. The rest of us are in awe of the american capacity for self destruction.

[EmperorEva0001]

I've never understood the idea of having metal detectors at a school. If some one wanted to shoot up a school they would just charge past the detectors. I think its more of just a way for parents to think their kids are safe. It might denture things like taking knifes to school or something, but pencils can still do just as much damage. Sadly the false sense of security is big in the US. Every where from Air lines and all the gun laws that they put out. Its not real security, just imaginary.

[Luckyplayer95]

taking guns away from people's not going to solve the problem.People are going to kill with sling shot or shoot fireball out of their hand.

[TheModestAgnostic]

It will certainly help, it works in comparable economies that have death by firearm rates as low as 1/5th or 1/10th the US rate.

[thefakeyeti]

Come on, I am against gun control and I find this laughable..

Part of killing someone is how EASY it is..

Good luck killing 11 people with a sling shot!

[CommentorX]

Thefakeyeti, you are right about ease. The murders in Illinois were the implusive act of a deranged man. That said, Timothy McVeigh killed 168 in 1995 with basically a truck full of fertilizer. IEDs claim thousands in Iraq, one of the most militarily secure nations on Earth.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Yet this does not happen (the guns problem) in the rest of the developed world. How staggeringly incurious you are about this anomaly. You've made up your mind, such as it is, keep the guns and damn the data. Hopefully the next generation of Americans will have more sense.

[CommentorX]

Agnostic, the problem here is not that I refuse to see the data. I am willing to admit when I am wrong, as in my South Korean example. I did not check their development status - point for you. HOWEVER, you cling to the assumption that gun control is the ONLY factor for gun crime. It is not - 32% of Norwegian households have guns, as 27% of the Swiss and 29% of the Canadians (Source: guncite com). Yet, their rates are lower. Why? Simple: more homogeneity in economic and social status.

[TheModestAgnostic]

I never claimed that it was the only factor, and I'm on record even in this thread as saying it is not the only factor. However it is a significant factor, and given the scale of the US problem, you might want to try what seems to work for other countries rather than casting around for threadbare excuses not to try anything.

[visioninverse]

I think the majority of violence in the USA is a reaction to abuse, especially school shootings. The slaves lash out against their masters.

[CommentorX]

Modest, you're misinterpreting your own data. If you'll notice at 1:13, Mexico has the same per capita murder rate as the U.S, yet in Mexico it is illegal to have a firearm - or a bullet, for that matter.

And before you go strutting Europe's statistics as superior, let's not forget the Serbian/Bosnian mixup about ten years back. We do have gun violence, yes, but we've managed to avoid genocide.

[TheModestAgnostic]

you are not comparing like with like. Mexico is not a developed economy, and I'm afraid I must point out European and other developed economies as leading the way. Your tasteless quip about genocide fails because A. That was a war, and B. far fewer actual deaths resulted from that war than the current Iraq war (for example). It's a silly comparison, which is wrong even in it's own context. Think before you post.

[CommentorX]

Economic development is a confounding variable - South Korea is "undeveloped", yet its gun murder rate is far below even Europe at 0.12.

As for Europe being superior, wait a month for those orange-clad blokes to start marching through Catholic neighborhoods on St. Patrick's Day in Ireland. My point is this: heterogeneity breeds violence. Poor vs. rich, white vs. black, Jew vs. Palestinian, Serb vs. Bosnian, doesn't matter. Until people see themselves as united, violence will happen.

[TheModestAgnostic]

South Korea is not a developing economy, this is simply wrong, you may be confusing it with North Korea. As regards your classically misinformed comment about Northern Ireland, the only stats I could find at short notice were from 1998, and in that year, the US still ran at more than DOUBLE the Northern Irish, and more than FOURTEEN times the southern Irish, rate. Things in the North have improved enormously in the intervening 10 years, while remaining depressingly the same in the US.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Here is a tip, when you are about to assert something, even something you think is true (particularly in your case), check it anyway. Nationmaster is the handiest objective source of this kind of info, but the CIA factbook isn't bad either.

[HubertCumberdale22]

I live in Switzerland and all male citizens have to serve about 9 months in the military (which sucks, I'm not looking forward to do this).

After this you'll get a gun which you have to take home. So it's obvious that there are so many guns here in Switzerland!

[TheModestAgnostic]

Nonetheless, the gun ownership US versus Sweden and the related guns deaths remain what they are, and something of a mystery. The specific reasons that the Swiss have more guns is not terribly pertinent, or do you think it is?

[TheModestAgnostic]

oops sorry should be switzerland not Sweden

[thefakeyeti]

"all malel citizens have to serve 9 months in the military"

How likely are you to die?/how likely are you to go to war?

Do the woman have to do something? That would piss me off, if I had to be (Pretty much) a slave to my government, while the women are drinking martinis in front of the air conditioner, ranting about how they wan't equal rights.

[thefakeyeti]

I am sure this is how it would work in the U.S.

I would get shipped off to Iraq, run for miles on end, watch my buddies limbs get blown off..

Come back to the U.S. Where the manager of a theater realizes I am a young male, and I probably just came back from war, lets me ahead of everyone..

Then I hear a whiney voice "Why do the MALES get to go in front? WE wan't equal rights!"

I swear I would flip out!

[iloveallecchianime]

Guns are good and you hippies suck....suck a carrot dick

[TheModestAgnostic]

surely you meant a carrot STICK? I love those things!

[iloveallecchianime]

surely you meant you have no life sitting here replying to everyones comments within 2 hours of posting....shit man eat some more carrots to see how your life is REALLY going

[TheModestAgnostic]

Ouch that really hurt, especially coming from a Ron Paul supporter. I had expected more.

[thefakeyeti]

Do you think it is plausible that many of the gun violence in the U.S. is due to the war on drugs?

Ie gang on gang violents and drug disputes?

[thefakeyeti]

Me clarifying myself- When you look at the swisses drug policy.. it is more laxed then ours.(The U.S.) They have a more liberal approach to drugs..

Marijuana is completely legal..

Is it possible, that the legalization of marijuana, (and PURHAPS other drugs) would cut down on the blackmarket, meaning less drug disputes, and less "turf wars"?

When was the last time you have heard of alcohol dealers getting in shoot outs? Prohibition I am guessin..

[thefakeyeti]

"marijuana is completly legal"- This is to my understanding..

[TheModestAgnostic]

Yes and no. I'm not certain how gun deaths break out, and these school shootings rarely have anything to do with recreational drug use. I agree though that legalising drug use, and then taxing the arse of it is a really good idea. This is exactly what we do with alcohol and tobacco.

[cypherphage]

Id agree that to a large degree the "war on drugs" causes the high rate of violence.

[thefakeyeti]

(sorry if I posted this twice)

I think a debate with you and crosisborg would be interesting... (on this topic of course)

He does a video video simular to this.. but on the opposite side..

[TheModestAgnostic]

I can't imagine a genuinely coherent case. Most of the reasons are absurdly amerocentric. For example teh-stupid-it-burns reason of having gun ownership to keep the government in line. Laughable. The others are just variations of that idiot theme.

[thefakeyeti]

"To keep the government in line"

I agree and disagree with the sentiment..

Could you really disagree that the U.S. is getting less free all the time?

One reason I dsagree with it. Is if the masses were PISSED off at the governent.. and figured it were time to revolt.

Numbers probably would out number that of wepons.. we could still do things like make bombs out of fertilizer.

[thefakeyeti]

Now the reason I AGREE with it..

Is what was the first thing the british empire try to do to the U.S. when they (the U.S.)wanted to seperate from them?

THEY TRIED TO TAKE AWAY THEIR GUNS!

What did hitler do to the jews? TAKE AWAY THEIR WEPONS

So honestly, if the government heavily tried to take away ALL guns (I am sure you don't advocate that, sounds like you wish they weren't so gosh darn easy to obtain)

I would honestly wonder if the government would start to get morerestrictive

[thefakeyeti]

Adds*

I do not own any guns.. nor do I plan to own any guns. (Well I guess technically I own two, a pullet gun and a BB gun, can't really call them a threat)

[thefakeyeti]

I would like to see you and crosisborg debate about this...

I think that would be interesting..

[thefakeyeti]

oh yes i posted it twice.. you can delete both this and the other comment and I would think nothing about it..

[thefakeyeti]

by this and the other comment.. I mean the one saying I posted twice.. and the first one :P not ALL my comments..

I will shut up now :P

[Wened]

Was that music from hackers?

[worldlystone]

He was off his meds.Thats why he killed those people.

[bitbutter]

If he had not been able to purchase a gun things would have turned out very differently.

[cypherphage]

making guns illegal doesn't prevent people from buying them. The problem was not the gun but whatever drove him to that course of action.

[bitbutter]

"making guns illegal doesn't prevent people from buying them. The problem was not the gun but whatever drove him to that course of action."

The mistake you're making is that you seem to want to single out _one_ cause of the tragedy, and I'm guessing you'd pin it on the guys mental health issues. The fact is that events have multiple causes. His owning a gun was one of them. If it had been harder to obtain guns, it would be less likely that he owned one. This is not rocket science.

[cypherphage]

"His owning a gun was one of them. If it had been harder to obtain guns, it would be less likely that he owned one." By the same token, people can die if it is hard to get guns legaly. As no person has yet provided proof that disallowing guns decreases violence, its a illogical step to take.

[bitbutter]

"By the same token, people can die if it is hard to get guns legaly."

[Sigh] Yes people will still die. But do you not think it's fairly safe to assume that there would be fewer gun related deaths if guns were harder to come by? Is it not obvious that the shooter would have caused far less damage had he not had a firearm?

[thefakeyeti]

"Is it not obvious that the shooter would have caused far less damage had he not had a firearm?"

Is it not obvious that if another person at the college would've had a gun.. he would've caused far less damage?

[bitbutter]

sure, the solution is more gunz [rolls eyes]

[worldlystone]

I think its safe to say that he killed those people because of his mental illness.The problem in the US is a mental heath one.Guns don't cause crime.

[bitbutter]

"Guns don't cause crime."

And mental illness doesn't cause shootings until it's paired with gun ownership. Like cypherphage your making the mistake of thinking an event like this can be traced to one 'real' cause. The world does not work like that. There were many causes of this tragedy, one important one was the shooter owning a gun. It baffles me that people don't seem to grasp this.

[joebot1]

your probably the sharpest guy on youtube!!

[Elaina43]

Your first question asks it all!!!!

What THE FUCK is it with Americans and guns???

I've NO CLUE.

[ailboles]

No offense, but speaking as a student AT the university who was ON CAMPUS WHEN IT HAPPENED, I find the timing of this video to be in poor taste. Yes, I understand that you're merely responding to those who have already tried to take this tragedy as a stepping stone to further their political goals, but at the same time you really do need to remember that this only happened about 26 hours ago. We are still healing

What I'm suprised that you aren't talking about is the WBC protesting funerals

[TheModestAgnostic]

I comment, because it seems incredible and unaccountable to a non-american like myself, that guns have not long since been banned, or heavily regulated. I'm just trying to introduce some external sanity into the discussion, I absolutely have no desire to offend the victims!

My condolences certainly, and I genuinely wish you and all your fellow students a speedy healing.

[lazymornings]

Interesting and great vid.The few american people i've communicated about this subject with, do seem to defend their right to have guns.Personally I think, because they don't know what it's like to live without guns, they feel they would be leaving themselfs defenceless.We know, thats wrong, but lets face it U.S.A., how many of your kids need to die before you see, guns are not for the public to hold.

[thefakeyeti]

"We know, thats wrong"

How do you KNOW that's wrong?

I am at least NOBLE enough to say I BELIEVE we would be worse off without the second amendment.

[lazymornings]

yes, your noble al'right.

[thefakeyeti]

Not sure if that is sarcasm.. or not...

[lazymornings]

no it's not ,it's fact.you are noble.

[TheKidFrom13thStreet]

Yeah, America is pretty fucked up.

[TheModestAgnostic]

Every country has it's wierd quirks, but this is a doozy! I don't think there is another country in the developed world that would persist in over the counter sales of guns and ammo after a single incident like this one, let alone, the 10 or 15 of the last decade.