I remember reading about Jephthah in Sunday School.Our teachers told us that he was a mighty man of valor and he sounded cool to me.But apparently,my teachers forgot to tell me he was a fucking idiot and couldn't understand probabilities...
The official Catholic line on Jephthah is that he was offering to sacrifice a random *person* from his city (the Hebrew's a bit ambiguous, but supports this), and God was punishing him for this.
@IoEstasCedonta LOL Jephtha's daughter dies, but HE'S the one being punished! That is so much better! Thank you for that information on the Catholic line.
@IoEstasCedonta LOL. He is punished, but it is his daughter who has to die! I think a better punishment would be for God to have told him, "No!" and then chosen a better leader, thus demoting him.
As you read the bible, substitute the word "EvilOne" for the word "Jehovah" in the bible then the Bible makes sense. I can see where "EvilOne would get off calling himself Jehovah and have people write about his great works and having morons worshiping him.
I cant believe this video has so many likes! Those people obviously have never read the bible, just fragments of it. and if they really did they didnt got the true meaning!
Mankind is due for moving to a higher consciousness plane. The same way the suffering of gazelles killed by lions make the species stronger, the suffering of mankind will help us move to the next consciousness level. A greater good comes for the species. The next level is the rejection of greed, materialism and selfishness. Our current capitalist system need to collapse in order to achieve this. If you're not ready spiritually, and doesn't move up, you'll suffer. This is happening now, seek God.
@vcomp1960 Well, God killed one third of himself for three days so he could let himself forgive humans who believe that he killed himself for three days. If physical reality could continue to exist when that 1/3 was not in existence, then that 1/3 was not important during that time of it's non existence.
If that 1/3 had gone to hell but continued to exist then why wasn't it keep in hell forever to atone for people's sins who had committed the infinite unforgivable sin of not believing that.
2. Jesus specifically FORBIDS harming children, in any way
3. Jesus referred the jews to the LAWS of MOSES (10 commandments), but did NOT endorse the entire old testament/talmud, and CERTAINLY didnt specifiy the BABYLONIAN TALMUD (which is what jews today use - check it out)
4. Fuck it, i dont know what to say - the old testament seems to be riddled with human sacrifice, and evil.
I think Jesus saved the world from the evil which controlled the jews lives
Common theme in all religions is that god can create everything, the universe, the sky, planets, animals, insects with ease. DOH ! he just cant write a fucking book he always requires mans help for that errm i wonder why that is.
Judges chapter 11 v29 to 40, the stupid story of Jepthah's daughter death. The guy conquers 20 cities and slaughters people by the tons in the name of god just to get home to his daughter, who receives him dancing and playing the tambourines just before god strikes her dead. I bet god was like "Oops, sorry. But it was your fault, you know?"
people take the parts of the bible they want to believe in and skip the rest. Guess what. It does not fucking work like that!!!!
You want to follow the bible to the letter then you have no moral ground to stand on. Thats why im an Atheist. The bible only tells of death, rape, murder and genocide and I will have no part of it.
Amazing how by just hearing the first "hello" you can tell the caller's ideology... I'm sure Matt and Don know too... I can imagine them thinking "Oh, boy... here we go"
@isisdron Jesus' crucifixion was neither suicide nor human sacrifice since he got up three days later. Basically, he took a three (or two) day nap in a tomb after a bad weekend at Golgotha.
@ciaochowbella so they say. But if god really needed to do all that to forgive mankind then why didnt he just forgive us? unless of course the obvious starts to become clear; that people are the ones who love blood and sacrifice to propitiate their gods, and that we merely attribute to god something inside ourselves, because we want to imagine a god that can explain this desire for bloodshed. God is a feeling that everyone has, and the more savage the traditions the more savage the god.
@isisdron Of course that is what happened. No divine intelligence would come up with that foolishness. Hell, normal, kind people can come up with better.
@ciaochowbella Correct. In fact the best thing we can say about Jesus is that he was an escaped fugitive. No one ever bothers to ask why Pilate showed no concern over this, especially since he was being proclaimed alive and well by his followers.
How did Jephthah even know that the deal was sealed with the Lord?
Maybe god wasn't paying attention or was dozing at the time, and dumbass takes it as read that the lord was listening to his hasty vow, somehow responsible for the outcome (are ALL battles/aims gained with divine intervention? Does nothing ever occur with human effort or this fuzzy notion of "free willy"?) and whacks his daughter for NOTHING.
Maybe god should issue stone tablet receipts as proof of the terms of its deals.
How did Jephthah even know that the deal was sealed with the Lord?
Maybe god wasn't paying attention or was dozing at the time, and dumbass takes it as read that the lord was listening to his hasty vow, somehow responsible for the outcome (are ALL battles/aims gained with divine intervention? Does nothing ever occur without human effort or this fuzzy notion of "free willy"?) and whacks his daughter for NOTHING.
Maybe god should issue stone tablet receipts as proof of the terms of its deals.
How did Jephthah even know that the deal was sealed with the Lord?
Maybe god wasn't paying attention or was dozing at the time, and dumbass takes it as read that the lord was listening to his hasty vow, somehow responsible for the outcome (are ALL battles/aims gained with divine intervention? Does nothing ever occur without human effort or this fuzzy notion of "free willy"?) and whacks his daughter for NOTHING.
Maybe god should issue stone tablet receipts as proof of the terms of its deals.
The real question here is just how stupid was Jephthah; how many people COULD have come out of HIS house when he got home? Even with a bunch of servants or something he was most likely offering up a 50/50 deal that the sacrifice would be a family member.
Ohhhhh yeah, he is fictional and poorly written as a cheap device to illustrate a theme. THAT is why his motivations make no sense.
There were rules of "cleanliness" with sacrifices to God, and i dont think a scruffy servant who;s been screwed by everyone in the village would have done, or even his wife.
His daughter was a virgin, and she "wailed for her virginity" for 2 mnths. If she hadnt beena virgin, i think they would have considered it an insult to god.
Either way, it makes me sick, that these people used to kill their own familes, liek that.
Jesus came to SAVE them from their sinful behaviour !!
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome Jesus came to save them from hell and furthur sacrifice. Not the other laws. Jesus didn't come to save people from inept and barbaric medicinal practices, he didn't come to save them from slavery practices, he didn't come to save them from just about everyhting in the Old Testament. The ONLY thing Jesus was supposed to 'stop' was the need for bood sacrifice. That's the ONLY thing he supposedly stopped.
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome And you who are slaves must accept the authority of your masters. Do whatever they trell you. Not only if they are kind and reasonable, but even if they are harsh.
Jesus could well have been the roman's way of "giving you a choice", or even as a threat !
After all, if you dont obey, submit, give up everything, then you are on the road to sin. And the only way to redemption is to give up EVERYHTING, and obey the satanist romans.
Even then, you only get your reward, if you die !
On this planet, there is NO chance of hapiness - only when you die !
But if you didnt submit, they would just kill you, imediatly
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome There is a chance at happiness on this planet. It's called freedom. And when you submit, you willingly give up any chance at that happiness. It is not that the happiness cannot happen,therefore one must submit, it is that when one submits, happiness cannot be achieved(unless that perosn is happy in submitting).
"Whatever/whoever emerges and comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be God’s, and I shall sacrifice him/her/it as a holocaust."[1] (Judges 11:31 - a holocaust is a burnt offering).
If you werent acting like you were going to hang up on him and if you didn't keep talking over him maybe he would've hung on. You always want to be right and most of the time you're wrong, you just don't like to hear anybody correct you. This show is not a very good one. You're going to hell and taking a whole lot of people with you. Why not tell everyone that when I was just stating my opinion you guys blocked me from leaving comments. My comments were never rude. Matt is weak!!
@chica0616 You're as much of an idiot as the caller in this clip. Please, do humanity a favor and never breed. Please. There are enough stupid people in the world as it is.
@chica0616 Just so you know, you santimonious, hypocritical thumper.....telling someone they are going to hell IS RUDE.
You've either not read your Bible or you're okay with rape, murder, slavery, genocide and all the other immorality in there. If you've not read it, you're ignorant. If you have read it and think there is ANY circumstance under which ANY of those things is allowable, you're amoral.
Jesus was human. Wasn't he sacrificed for our sins? Or am I missing something here? Human sacrifice is okay if that human also happens to be God. Got it.
But certainly you see the difference between an ordinary man being killed to appease a god so the sun will continue to rise, in contradistinction to God Himself laying down His own life to provide atonement for sin?
Imagine a group of people who fell into the hands of a savage tribe. The tribe is set on executing them. Another man hears the news from afar and comes to offer himself in place of the condemned group. This is more similar to Christianity .
@Victoruto Why did god need to put on a show in order to forgive sins? Why did he put a "tree" of knowledge there and command that they not "eat" from it in the first place?
Your analogy is a bit weak. What ultimate sacrifice does god make? If he is Jesus, his giving up his life lasted 3 days tops, as he is still living. Whereas the mysterious man who offers himself for this condemned group gives up the only life he has ever had. It seems like a bit of a joke on gods part in my opinion.
@TheDeadlyGamesman You have raised a number of issues, to which each has had many books dedicated. In short, He put the tree there because the faith of Adam and Eve must be tested. They must freely choose to obey God, and there can be no choice if their is no option to disobey Him. I do not understand your question about God putting on a show to forgive sin. Perhaps you can explain.
Yes, the analogy is not perfect, but it is meant to demonstrate the type of sacrifice that is made.
@Victoruto He knows that they're going to fail. This is the same as asking why he makes Abraham go to the point of almost killing his son. It's more equivalent to gods TV -- he wants to be entertained, despite knowing the outcome before hand.
And that's my point about god putting on a show. WHY does it have to be this way that he forgives the sins of humanity? WHY does he have to embody himself, live a life, be tortured and then killed to redeem humanity? Why can't he just FORGIVE their sins?
@TheDeadlyGamesman To just forgive sins would require the sacrifice of God's justice. But at the Cross, mercy, justice, love, and wrath all met and were carried out to secure the salvation for man.
Had God not become man, He would not have experienced temptation, and would not have one the battle over sin. A perfect man had to die in sinful man's stead. Satan's accusations against God were thus proven wrong, and the sinfulness of sin was made manifest.
@Victoruto You didn't answer my question. God makes the rules, why does he have to make it so that some person had to be sacrificed in order to atone for sins? Why wouldn't the simple act of forgiving their sins be good enough for this god?
@TheDeadlyGamesman Such would be like Allah. But to just forgive means that justice is comprised. God does not and cannot comprise His justice. He is inherently a just God and "He cannot deny Himself" (2 Tim 2:13).
Not arbitrarily. He acts in accordance with His own unchanging character. And as I said earlier, the Cross vindicated the love and humility of God—that which Satan accused God of not possessing. At the Cross sin was revealed for the evil that it truly is, for it executed the Son of God.
You are not going to comprehend how we are saved in its entirety. There is much mystery to it, and no mind would deny this. But one does not have to know how food nourishes the body to know that it does.
@Victoruto So god's "saving" manifests in reality. Show it. We know food nourishes the body because we get sick when we haven't eaten and we can see the benefits of eating.
But you still haven't demonstrated why this cross and human sacrifice is necessarily needed to forgive those sins. You've offered conjectures, and lousy ones at that. If the cross and human sacrifice is somehow connected to his character, can you substantiate this? Can you offer anything other than mere guesses?
The only thing I can offer you is that which the Bible declares. The moment I set my reason above the texts of Scripture, I have denied the Bible as the ultimate authority—that which it claims to be. And I will not be an idolater.
As I have repeatedly stated, the Cross shows mercy yet preserves justice (and I doubt you cannot see this). God is merciful and just. Sin cannot not go unpunished, yet it must be forgiven that we may be reconciled to God. The Cross brings these two together.
@TheDeadly The sacrifice is not contained in the length of days Jesus was in the tomb. The sacrifice is contained in the fact that for the first time in eternity Christ was separated from the Father by sin—a separation that man cannot wholly comprehend. After being horribly tortured He sunk into death with the world's sin borne in His body. The Son of God died shamefully and guiltily, paying the punishment that was due to us. Justice had been met and Christ's righteousness is offered to all.
@AceofDiamonds0 Sure, I have no problem with that. As long as we remember that there was only one sacrifice for all time, and that it was a self-sacrifice.
@AceofDiamonds0 how can Jesus have been a sacrifice in the sense we know it? if God knows all and is all knowledgeable then he knew this sacrifice was temporary, therefore it was not a sacrifice. he knew he was coming back. that is NOT a sacrifice!
@AceofDiamonds0 so why is this called the ultimate sacrifice? this is what im getting at, 1000s of people were killed this way and many were much worse with braking of limbs etc jesus ( not that i beleive he existed ) knew he would come back and knew what was going to happen, that is not sacrifice, its suffering yes, but not sacrifice,there was no fear of death here
@moddie84 In most pagan religions a person (many times a child) would be sacrificed to appease a god of nature, as though these gods were thirsty for blood. In Christianity, human sacrifice can not atone for sin, for all men are sinful. The atoning sacrifice could only be carried out by the Son of God as a propitiation for sin. He took our sin, and gave us His righteousness. No longer are we condemned. "We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:10)
@Victoruto but pagan religions also have a god man sacrificed to save the world from their sins, like osirus, and dyonisus, and mithras. It is still a human sacrifice. I was just pointing out the irony that a christian would question a human sacrifice when that is the base of their belief.
@Victoruto well thats not the point I was trying to make but there are numerous, including the writings of Ctesias (400BC) Trust, ye saints, your Lord restored,
"Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured."
what that says is "believe in our lord for he suffered for our sins and granted us salvation."
@moddie84 First, Ctesias lived in the 4th centurcy B.C., not 4000 B.C.
Second, he did not speak English (which did not exist until well after Christ). It was later made into a English rhyme. The literal translation reads, "Trust, ye communicants; the God having been saved, there shall be to us out of pain, Salvation." (Higgins Anacalypsis, vol. ii, p. 114)
It is thus the god who is saved, and out of our pains there is salvation. As can be seen, this nothing close to Christianity.
@moddie84 What do you mean by human sacrifice? If you mean that God desires the continual sacrifices of humans to satisfy his bloody-thirsty nature, then this is of course wrong. But if you mean that God Himself, the second Person of the Trinity, became a man to die for a world that was doomed to destruction, so that they may live eternally, then this is true.
But as can be seen, this in no way compares to the human sacrifices like those in pagan traditions.
@Victoruto i mean human sacrifice in terms of, a person was killed to bargain with God in some way, and God accepted the sacrifice. I'm not sure why that's confusing.
There are a good number of times in the Old Testament, where God helps one side conqour another people's city (in some cases, even ordering it).
'Guess he changed his mind about all of that "Thou shalt not kill" stuff.
But that's ok, because he changed it back again when Jesus came on the scene.
That's when it was finally time for that new "Love thy neighbor" "Forgive those who trespass against you" and "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" stuff.
I find it funny how the almighty creator of the universe can't even get his flock, his only representatives here on Earth (Christians) to agree and unite into one denomination. If the Christian God's word is the one true word, then I wonder why it is he doesn't seem to care that there are literally hundreds of different versions of it. Maybe its because he doesn't exist.
These guys are missing the fact that just because something is recorded in the bible doesn't mean that God is happy with it. The scripture referenced is Judges 11:29-40, and there is nothing there indicating that God was happy with this sacrifice.
@RobertBorgersen If they had said god was happy with it, that might be relevant. The argument is that god accepts a human sacrifice, which means he endorses it in some form, however little it may be. And judging by the NT and the sacrifice of Jesus, it's a pretty big theme for him.
@TheDeadlyGamesman Ah, I suppose you have to be clear what you mean by "human sacrifice". I mean of course humans sacrificing other humans to please or worship God, or even honor a vow, as was the case here. My point is God never endorses this practice, and this scripture does not even imply that God didn't consider Jephthah a murderer for what he did! To say that "God accepts human sacrifice", perhaps you mean that God doesn't stop it from happening?
@RobertBorgersen Yahweh has a choice here: A) accept Jephthah's offer and give him the battle, B) reject it, and presumably Jephthah loses. If he rejects it, we're not here talking about this. Instead he accepted it.
If Yahweh is omniscient, he KNEW it would be Jephthah's daughter and clearly had no moral objection to Jephthah offering her as a burnt offering as a quid pro quo, or whatever it was. If he's not all knowing, then it hit him as a surprise but he still opted to allow it to happen.
@TheDeadlyGamesman You are assuming those are the only two choices. Does God not give good to the sinner? Does God not let the evil become powerful? He does over and over! (If you want to ask why, this is a different debate). There are more choices, for instance, C) give Jephthah the battle in his favour and then consider Jephthah immoral and evil for sacrificing his child. There is no reason this is not an option.
@RobertBorgersen The point is that Yahweh shows no moral objections to the idea of human sacrifices. If he did, why would he let it happen in any cases? Would you allow your child to be sacrificed to god if you had one? Yahweh accepted a human sacrifice. He passively not stopping it is just as bad as him directly endorsing it. I'll quote Spider-Man: With great power comes great responsibility.
@TheDeadlyGamesman You are in error because you do not know the bible. God clearly is opposed to the sacrifice of humans to worship. See Lev 18:21: ‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD." Now suppose you say "Well, the problem there is sacrificing to Molek, not God.
@RobertBorgersen So here's an all powerful, benevolent, omniscient being who interacts with humans. One human asks god to help him win the battle, and in return he'll sacrifice the first thing he sees upon arrival home as a burnt offering. I'm to believe this god doesn't endorse human sacrifices in any way?
Your student asks you for help on the test and says they'll kill the next thing that walks through the door; it's your daughter. In what fucked up way are you to allow this to happen?
@TheDeadlyGamesman "Your student asks you for help on the test and says they'll kill the next thing that walks through the door [if they get the help]". So, if I act kindly towards the person providing them help, I am responsible for what they choose to do afterwards? What if I told God that if he didn't put 1Mill in my bank account right now, I would go out and [insert evil thing here]. Would then God be responsible for me doing it if he didn't give me the million? No, of course not.
@RobertBorgersen An ultimatum isn't the same as asking a favour. We don't blame the bank teller for giving a robber money because we understand they were coerced, not an accomplice (unless they were, which could be the case, but not usually.)
If you have a moral objection to cheating (and let's assume it's an exam, to give it a bit more weight) as well as a moral objection to human sacrifices, why would you be a willing participant in the proposition offered by the student?
@TheDeadlyGamesman You're right, but there are no ultimatums with God. We can't threaten him with any real harm. But lets not get too far off course. All I am saying is this: Jephthah made a stupid and sinful decision to 1) commit to God to sacrifice something that came out of his door, and 2) actually go through the the stupid and sinful vow and sacrifice his daughter. This is never contradicted by God. It was not stopped by God, but God never stops us from sinning, so this is meaningless.
@RobertBorgersen If god has some moral objection to human sacrifices, why does this god give Jephthah the battle he requests victory in which will lead to the human sacrifice? Why wouldn't this all powerful being devise a plan that simply excludes this immoral act all together?
Let's put you in god's shoes for a second and say you know the future. Would you help that person with the "test"? This is the exact junction we're at with god. If he's morally opposed to it, why did he give Jephthah the battle in the first place? If he wanted Jephthah to win without the human sacrifice, why not OPPOSE his stupid proposition of the sacrifice?
@TheDeadlyGamesman ...Then you are silly, since the bible still does talk about it in many other scriptures, including an evil king in 2 Chronicles 28:3 who sacrifices his children.
@RobertBorgersen That's a REALLY big stretch. By that argument nothing in the bible is necessarily relevant. You are basically calling the bible worthless, although I'm pretty certain there are parts that you claim as vital to your very existence. It's just a weak attempt at a "get out of this evil meaning of this verse" card.
@rrpostalagain It's not a big stretch. The bible is a historical book as well as a guide to life. For instance, in Genesis 37, it records the selling of Joseph as a slave. I don't think God ever condemns this action specifically. What about just the fact that his brothers hate him (Gen 37:8)? Certainly its not morally acceptable, and yet God doesn't speak on it. Why? I think it's because it is obvious! From the rest of the bible, it's clear that Jephthah sacrificing his child was evil to God.
@RobertBorgersen Then why did God accept the sacrifice? Why didn't he just say something to the effect of, "That's evil to me, begone with your awful idea."
@PosFlow Ah, so now you are moving to the OTHER discussion: why does God not stop us from sinning. This is a completely different discussion, and I will not get into it here. The issue IS that God is not happy with Jephthah for what he did.
Also, be careful when you say "God accepts". What does that mean? God does NOT encourage this behaviour. God does NOT endorse this behavior. But, God DOES let it happen. God DOES bless this man, despite his sin. Define "accepts". :)
@RobertBorgersen No, no. I'll define "accepts" as God allowing the "sacrifice" to go through. As in, if he didn't accept it, it wouldn't have been a "sacrifice", because God wouldn't have granted him victory in battle. But God DID grant him victory, which means God decided to take up the bargain. If God didn't think it was a moral deal or wasn't happy with Jephthah, then he wouldn't have endorsed it by keeping up his end. I don't see how you can say that God does not encourage that behavior....
@RobertBorgersen ..cont...God not stopping us from sinning is actually the different issue. Sinning, as I understand it, takes part separate from God. In order to sin, I'm pretty sure it requires defiance of God's will. How, then, can a sacrificial act like this be considered a sin, if that's what you're saying? God is an active participant - a collaborator - in the act, so it can't be wrong. Unless God is acting immorally by throwing up his hands and saying "Dammit, Jephthah, alright, you win."
@PosFlow Actually, your definition of "accepts" means that God accepts our sin - he allows it to happen. If he is God, he is omnipotent and could stop us from sinning. He doesn't, and yet God doesn't accept our sin, and he is not responsible for it. You make a logical error here: just because God DID grant him victory does not mean that he "took up the bargain". If I told God that if 1mill is NOT in my bank in 5secs, I will do something evil, would he be responsible if I did it? Ofcourse not.
@RobertBorgersen If you changed your bank account example to you asking God for a million dollars, and saying if he gave it to you, you would kill someone, and he said OK...then you'd have an accurate example.
@PosFlow No, not at all. That would be a good example only if Jephthah was a horrible warrior with a stupid low chance of success. Judges 11:1 starts off with how awesome a warrior Jephthah was.
A better eg of this situation is me, a university math teacher, who has to fill out a skill testing question (like 4*500/2 + 600 - 100) saying something like "God, if you help me answer this skill testing question right, then I will worship u by killing my wife"...how ridiculous to blame God!
@RobertBorgersen It also says his mother was a prostitute. How superfluous.
You must be a reasonable man. If a group prays for someone to recover from some terminal disease, do you praise god or the doctors who administered the medicine?
"Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands."
Evidently god had more of a role in this then some would say. Not to mention he HAD to keep his vow to the lord, as if this vow meant something.
@RobertBorgersen Of course you could say god would never want anyone to go back on their promise. But that just shows his callous disregard for the life of a human being.
@RobertBorgersen I know we're running in circles here, but I just don't understand why god couldn't just say no. If it's not an act he condones, then why not just refuse? Unless we get somewhere with this conversation, though, I think I'll just let you answer and we'll be done with it.
@RobertBorgersen Obviously I disagree. If that's how you interpret all of those instances in the bible, I can't argue with you. It seems more than obvious to me. I don't know how you could even read a menu if you see so many things "between the lines". If this were any book besides the one you have invested so much time and life into, I am confident you would not see it as you do. It's not even a debate if we read the same exact words yet somehow see them differently.
You've got to be kidding! God doesn't accept human sacrifice?
The whole religion is based on the idea that the brutal sacrifice of a man/god brings salvation to mankind. Human sacrifice is at the core of the religion.
No human sacrifice in the bible>??? OK, maybe I am missing something here, but is not the Christian releigion BASED on the human sacrifice of Jesus????
Why bring up Jeptha? That is too obscure for Christians who only know the 5 nicie nice stories and a few quotes from the bible to make up their faith. When someone asserts that God doesnt accept human sacrifice, just say "Jesus" and watch them squirm.
@CorndogMaker No squirming necessary. Pagan human sacrifices ( e.g., passing children through fire) were done to please the bloodthirsty gods of nature. Jesus Christ (God Himself), however, willingly let Himself be crucified as an atonement for sin. He "gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world". He took our place in punishment, so that we may live and inherit that which we do not deserve.
Makes me squirm. The only loophole for the game that He made Himself, which the all knowing and all powerful God can think of to save everyone, is a blood sacrifice of himself to himself. No one understands the reason why that would work. Does the blood of Himself give Him some kind of extra forgiving ectoplasm? is there some cosmic balance that He is subject to? In Pagan rituals it was at least understood as a life/death cycle, just like anything in nature. It's asinine that God needed blood.
@CorndogMaker The reason why sacrifice is necessary is because the "wages of sin is death." Sin separates man from his Creator, and when we are separated from the Source of all life, the necessary entailment is death. But as Christ died to sin and rose again the third day, we can not only partake of His death, but partake of His renewed life. When we stand before God, we will not be seen in our iniquity, but seen in Christ's righteousness. Our sins will be forgotten, for they have been paid for.
Is that just how God's magical ability's work? The way I understand it, he needs us to telepathically transfer all of our sin into some kind of pure vessel so that he can then destroy it.
Or does he magically transfer the death of Jesus on to us so that it somehow fools the cosmic balance into thinking that WE payed it's necessary price already and can sneak through a loophole?
God sure has a lot of limitations.
He was cornered by us naughty mortals and had no other choice but to take blood.
@CorndogMaker You can add the word "magical" for effect if you like, but it serves no purpose. And no, we do not transfer our sins, it is God who transfers them (symbolically of course, for sins are not material things). There are no loopholes, and God is only limited by the necessity of justice. I would all but be surprised at your mockery, for Paul said, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor 1:18)
It isn't for effect, I have no other word for such things. I would defiantly not call it justice, it should be obvious that no one deserves infinite punishment for finite deeds no matter how horrible they are. there is a reason that there's no court that would accept someone taking on the punishment for someone elses crimes. Do you agree with that absurd notion? Even if I saw resurrected Jesus appear to me, as Paul got to, I would still be baffled by the inane sacrifice system God works in.
@CorndogMaker If, by infinite punishment, you mean eternal death, then there is certainly justice in this; but if you mean eternal torment, then I would agree that this is unjust. But the Bible does not teach eternal torment. This is a doctrine that has unfortunately trickled into the Christian church, but with the Scriptural warrant. Secondly, where do you get your standard of justice? Is it objective?
That's sick.Eternal punishment for finite crimes is against the definition of justice, because it is grotesquely imbalanced. Selecting someone to be annihilated forever can never be justified. That is why Lady Justice carries a little balance. the idea of retributive justice predates the bible and exists in most cultures.It comes from people using empathy to form working societies. as a mortal I question even equal retributive justice and often think of setting a better example or rehabilitation
Yahweh is the meanest, most vindictive evil nutjob excuse for a god ever....and Jesus was no big sacrifice. Many others sufferered more than the Jewish zombie did, and he got etental life afterwards.
@MercuryRis Is this your personal subjective opinion, or are you comparing Him to an absolute standard to justify such moral judgments? If the former, then why should anyone care about your subjective dislikes? If the latter, then by what standard do you make such moral judgments?
I remember reading about Jephthah in Sunday School.Our teachers told us that he was a mighty man of valor and he sounded cool to me.But apparently,my teachers forgot to tell me he was a fucking idiot and couldn't understand probabilities...
MrSaxman321 1 week ago
Lol human sacrifice is all over the old testament... And brutal displays of power all over the new testament. :P
Manguneshane 2 weeks ago
It's probably a bad sign but as soon as the guy asked the question I thought "Judges 11: 29-40". I know the Bible and al-Quran far too well. >.<
DieudonneSeal 2 months ago
The official Catholic line on Jephthah is that he was offering to sacrifice a random *person* from his city (the Hebrew's a bit ambiguous, but supports this), and God was punishing him for this.
IoEstasCedonta 2 months ago
@IoEstasCedonta LOL Jephtha's daughter dies, but HE'S the one being punished! That is so much better! Thank you for that information on the Catholic line.
keepdancingmaria 2 months ago
@IoEstasCedonta LOL. He is punished, but it is his daughter who has to die! I think a better punishment would be for God to have told him, "No!" and then chosen a better leader, thus demoting him.
keepdancingmaria 2 months ago
As you read the bible, substitute the word "EvilOne" for the word "Jehovah" in the bible then the Bible makes sense. I can see where "EvilOne would get off calling himself Jehovah and have people write about his great works and having morons worshiping him.
Zackindy0846 3 months ago
god accepts human sacrifice but only if they are cristians
luka7646 3 months ago
43alley did a great video on this subject:
/watch?v=NFyekTrObRc Jephthah [An Atheist Reads the Bible - 3]
Dietseleeuw 3 months ago
I cant believe this video has so many likes! Those people obviously have never read the bible, just fragments of it. and if they really did they didnt got the true meaning!
nomad30de 5 months ago
@nomad30de you'd be surprised how many atheists have read the bible and how much they know what's in it compared to christians.
2008jazzii 4 months ago
@nomad30de Matt Hillahunty on the Atheist Experience has read the Bible several times and was studying to be a preacher.
tron81 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Mankind is due for moving to a higher consciousness plane. The same way the suffering of gazelles killed by lions make the species stronger, the suffering of mankind will help us move to the next consciousness level. A greater good comes for the species. The next level is the rejection of greed, materialism and selfishness. Our current capitalist system need to collapse in order to achieve this. If you're not ready spiritually, and doesn't move up, you'll suffer. This is happening now, seek God.
dejesusluisx 5 months ago
GOD IS AN ATHEIST!
yourallbrainwashed 5 months ago
Jesus was a human sacrifice of sorts wasn't he?
FirstTimeViewers 5 months ago 2
the passage is Judges 11:31 and Judges 11:39
MrRobertGulabo 5 months ago
the passage is Judges 11:31
MrRobertGulabo 5 months ago
christians only hear what they want to hear.
mroldschoolhiphop1 6 months ago
Why should anyone believe in any god? Much less the biblical god.
I may not be able to disprove all gods, but I can disprove the biblical god using the bible. How? All I need is Genesis.
drche420 7 months ago
i love when black people call in.......is that racist ?hahaa
PimpMyParadigm 7 months ago
Wasn't jesus a human sacrifice?
vcomp1960 8 months ago 29
@vcomp1960 Yep, not to mention a scapegoat. It's funny how many Christians miss that.
xynth101088 7 months ago
@vcomp1960 he is semihuman.
mroldschoolhiphop1 6 months ago
@vcomp1960 Well, God killed one third of himself for three days so he could let himself forgive humans who believe that he killed himself for three days. If physical reality could continue to exist when that 1/3 was not in existence, then that 1/3 was not important during that time of it's non existence.
If that 1/3 had gone to hell but continued to exist then why wasn't it keep in hell forever to atone for people's sins who had committed the infinite unforgivable sin of not believing that.
Zackindy0846 3 months ago
@Zackindy0846 huh??????????????????????
vcomp1960 3 months ago
@Zackindy0846 OMG............I think I understand!
vcomp1960 2 days ago
@vcomp1960 Well, technically he was only half human. The other half was imaginary, like his father.
orcslayer006 3 days ago
1. Jesus came to SAVE the jews
2. Jesus specifically FORBIDS harming children, in any way
3. Jesus referred the jews to the LAWS of MOSES (10 commandments), but did NOT endorse the entire old testament/talmud, and CERTAINLY didnt specifiy the BABYLONIAN TALMUD (which is what jews today use - check it out)
4. Fuck it, i dont know what to say - the old testament seems to be riddled with human sacrifice, and evil.
I think Jesus saved the world from the evil which controlled the jews lives
AnnoyingTypoSyndrome 9 months ago
ahahhahaha he hung up on him, how pathetic is that
jhibbitt1 9 months ago
Common theme in all religions is that god can create everything, the universe, the sky, planets, animals, insects with ease. DOH ! he just cant write a fucking book he always requires mans help for that errm i wonder why that is.
DamEllSunny 9 months ago
Judges chapter 11 v29 to 40, the stupid story of Jepthah's daughter death. The guy conquers 20 cities and slaughters people by the tons in the name of god just to get home to his daughter, who receives him dancing and playing the tambourines just before god strikes her dead. I bet god was like "Oops, sorry. But it was your fault, you know?"
LesPaul2006 9 months ago
people take the parts of the bible they want to believe in and skip the rest. Guess what. It does not fucking work like that!!!!
You want to follow the bible to the letter then you have no moral ground to stand on. Thats why im an Atheist. The bible only tells of death, rape, murder and genocide and I will have no part of it.
andysim232 10 months ago
Amazing how by just hearing the first "hello" you can tell the caller's ideology... I'm sure Matt and Don know too... I can imagine them thinking "Oh, boy... here we go"
pedazodeboludo 11 months ago
Yet another ignorant caller...
Katalyzt
Katalyzt 11 months ago
it's amazing how MOST christians don't know their own bible
laapache1 11 months ago
God does not accept human sacrifice; If he "does" then how does human sacrifice fit into the Mosaic Law?
WayOfTheMaster454 11 months ago
jesus was god- therefore it wasnt human sacrifice it was suicide.
isisdron 1 year ago
@isisdron Jesus' crucifixion was neither suicide nor human sacrifice since he got up three days later. Basically, he took a three (or two) day nap in a tomb after a bad weekend at Golgotha.
ciaochowbella 11 months ago 2
@ciaochowbella so they say. But if god really needed to do all that to forgive mankind then why didnt he just forgive us? unless of course the obvious starts to become clear; that people are the ones who love blood and sacrifice to propitiate their gods, and that we merely attribute to god something inside ourselves, because we want to imagine a god that can explain this desire for bloodshed. God is a feeling that everyone has, and the more savage the traditions the more savage the god.
isisdron 11 months ago
@isisdron Of course that is what happened. No divine intelligence would come up with that foolishness. Hell, normal, kind people can come up with better.
ciaochowbella 11 months ago
@ciaochowbella Correct. In fact the best thing we can say about Jesus is that he was an escaped fugitive. No one ever bothers to ask why Pilate showed no concern over this, especially since he was being proclaimed alive and well by his followers.
TheDeadlyGamesman 11 months ago
This guy lacks a brain as well as a set of balls.
MunkyDrag0n 1 year ago
The human sacrifice is in Judges 11... I can't believe Matt didn't know that!
2nDoppelganger 1 year ago
@2nDoppelganger and then Hebrews goes on to praise jephtha as a man of great faith...
isisdron 1 year ago
@isisdron wasn't he???? he was awesome! he was so devoted to god!
2nDoppelganger 1 year ago
@isisdron yes I'd say that was some powerful devotion he had there....bravo to him.
isisdron 1 year ago
Gotta love when Matt puts people on hold.
2nDoppelganger 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"LET ME FINISH"
2nDoppelganger 1 year ago
How did Jephthah even know that the deal was sealed with the Lord?
Maybe god wasn't paying attention or was dozing at the time, and dumbass takes it as read that the lord was listening to his hasty vow, somehow responsible for the outcome (are ALL battles/aims gained with divine intervention? Does nothing ever occur with human effort or this fuzzy notion of "free willy"?) and whacks his daughter for NOTHING.
Maybe god should issue stone tablet receipts as proof of the terms of its deals.
P0weredByPie 1 year ago
How did Jephthah even know that the deal was sealed with the Lord?
Maybe god wasn't paying attention or was dozing at the time, and dumbass takes it as read that the lord was listening to his hasty vow, somehow responsible for the outcome (are ALL battles/aims gained with divine intervention? Does nothing ever occur without human effort or this fuzzy notion of "free willy"?) and whacks his daughter for NOTHING.
Maybe god should issue stone tablet receipts as proof of the terms of its deals.
P0weredByPie 1 year ago
How did Jephthah even know that the deal was sealed with the Lord?
Maybe god wasn't paying attention or was dozing at the time, and dumbass takes it as read that the lord was listening to his hasty vow, somehow responsible for the outcome (are ALL battles/aims gained with divine intervention? Does nothing ever occur without human effort or this fuzzy notion of "free willy"?) and whacks his daughter for NOTHING.
Maybe god should issue stone tablet receipts as proof of the terms of its deals.
P0weredByPie 1 year ago
The real question here is just how stupid was Jephthah; how many people COULD have come out of HIS house when he got home? Even with a bunch of servants or something he was most likely offering up a 50/50 deal that the sacrifice would be a family member.
Ohhhhh yeah, he is fictional and poorly written as a cheap device to illustrate a theme. THAT is why his motivations make no sense.
Hopeful71 1 year ago 23
@Hopeful71:
There were rules of "cleanliness" with sacrifices to God, and i dont think a scruffy servant who;s been screwed by everyone in the village would have done, or even his wife.
His daughter was a virgin, and she "wailed for her virginity" for 2 mnths. If she hadnt beena virgin, i think they would have considered it an insult to god.
Either way, it makes me sick, that these people used to kill their own familes, liek that.
Jesus came to SAVE them from their sinful behaviour !!
AnnoyingTypoSyndrome 9 months ago
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome Jesus came to save them from hell and furthur sacrifice. Not the other laws. Jesus didn't come to save people from inept and barbaric medicinal practices, he didn't come to save them from slavery practices, he didn't come to save them from just about everyhting in the Old Testament. The ONLY thing Jesus was supposed to 'stop' was the need for bood sacrifice. That's the ONLY thing he supposedly stopped.
BigLundi 8 months ago
@BigLundi:
He who leads a man into slavery, shall die in slavery.
AnnoyingTypoSyndrome 8 months ago
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome And you who are slaves must accept the authority of your masters. Do whatever they trell you. Not only if they are kind and reasonable, but even if they are harsh.
BigLundi 8 months ago
@BigLundi:
Having read the bible, quite a bit, there was a part of me, which once wondered if it wasn't an instruction book, for slaves.
Telling the captured slaves, they will obey these rules, otherwise the bad satanist (the roman soldier) will come and get them.
Turn your back on all desire - you dont need that, any more (since the romans took over).
Serve the rich man, as his slave, and just wait till you die, cus he wont go to heaven, and you will !
All it doesnt tell you, is WHY ?
AnnoyingTypoSyndrome 8 months ago
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome So you agree that Jesus said slaves should obey their masters. You just think there was a good reason for it.
BigLundi 8 months ago
@BigLundi:
No, no - im not sure about anything.
Jesus could well have been the roman's way of "giving you a choice", or even as a threat !
After all, if you dont obey, submit, give up everything, then you are on the road to sin. And the only way to redemption is to give up EVERYHTING, and obey the satanist romans.
Even then, you only get your reward, if you die !
On this planet, there is NO chance of hapiness - only when you die !
But if you didnt submit, they would just kill you, imediatly
AnnoyingTypoSyndrome 8 months ago
@AnnoyingTypoSyndrome There is a chance at happiness on this planet. It's called freedom. And when you submit, you willingly give up any chance at that happiness. It is not that the happiness cannot happen,therefore one must submit, it is that when one submits, happiness cannot be achieved(unless that perosn is happy in submitting).
BigLundi 8 months ago
@Hopeful71 usually the family pet comes out.
laapache1 4 months ago in playlist apach3
"The need for religion will end when man becomes sensible enough to govern himself." -Francisco Ferrer Guardia
"There was a time that religion ruled the world. It is known as the Dark Ages."
-Ruth Hurmence Green
"The devil can site scriptures for his purpose"
-William Shakespeare
sgtkiko 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"The need for religion will end when man becomes sensible enough to govern himself." -Francisco Ferrer Guardia
"There was a time that religion ruled the world. It is known as the Dark Ages."
-Ruth Hurmence Green "The devil can site scriptures for his purpose"
-William Shakespeare
sgtkiko 1 year ago
Comment removed
sgtkiko 1 year ago
Logical proof that if god exist as described then god doesn't answer prayers.
1. god is omniscient
2. from 1 god knows the future (event x)
3. you pray for change (event x to event y)
4. from 2 event x pans out (no prayer answered)
if event y happens then either premise 1 is false or premise 2 is false.
since Christianity asserts premise 1 is true then from 1, 2 and 3 it follows that 4 is true hence god doesn't answer prayers.
jujumen 1 year ago
"Whatever/whoever emerges and comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be God’s, and I shall sacrifice him/her/it as a holocaust."[1] (Judges 11:31 - a holocaust is a burnt offering).
bigmanoooo1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
If you werent acting like you were going to hang up on him and if you didn't keep talking over him maybe he would've hung on. You always want to be right and most of the time you're wrong, you just don't like to hear anybody correct you. This show is not a very good one. You're going to hell and taking a whole lot of people with you. Why not tell everyone that when I was just stating my opinion you guys blocked me from leaving comments. My comments were never rude. Matt is weak!!
chica0616 1 year ago
@chica0616 Who blocked you from leaving comments? And how are they wrong most of the time?
Here's a question: Does god accept human sacrifices in the bible?
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago 18
@TheDeadlyGamesman new testament -no
999Thip 9 months ago
@chica0616 - The Lord enjoys the smell of burning animals.
freakystyley4000 1 year ago
@chica0616 Lol. Awh, c'mon dude, even you know you're talking shit now.
LondonIrishRover 1 year ago 3
@chica0616 arrogant.
BlackDahliaMurder22 1 year ago
@chica0616 NO
l4dlovemaker2000 1 year ago
@chica0616 You're as much of an idiot as the caller in this clip. Please, do humanity a favor and never breed. Please. There are enough stupid people in the world as it is.
Nabiki73 1 year ago
@chica0616
"my comments were never rude"
"You're going to hell and taking a whole lot of people with you"
I believe that it is just for you to be tortured forever.
Anyone see a problem?
yamuma698 1 year ago
@chica0616 ok are there human sacrfices in the bible??? actually answer the question instead of either changing the subject or talking nonsense
loudman12 11 months ago 3
@loudman12 Judges chapter 11 v29 to 40
LesPaul2006 9 months ago
@chica0616 Just so you know, you santimonious, hypocritical thumper.....telling someone they are going to hell IS RUDE.
You've either not read your Bible or you're okay with rape, murder, slavery, genocide and all the other immorality in there. If you've not read it, you're ignorant. If you have read it and think there is ANY circumstance under which ANY of those things is allowable, you're amoral.
Your call, sweet pea.
ciaochowbella 11 months ago
Jesus was human. Wasn't he sacrificed for our sins? Or am I missing something here? Human sacrifice is okay if that human also happens to be God. Got it.
loopyfruit11 1 year ago 4
Uhm... Isn't that pronounced "Jefthah" ?
Amphioxys 1 year ago
But certainly you see the difference between an ordinary man being killed to appease a god so the sun will continue to rise, in contradistinction to God Himself laying down His own life to provide atonement for sin?
Imagine a group of people who fell into the hands of a savage tribe. The tribe is set on executing them. Another man hears the news from afar and comes to offer himself in place of the condemned group. This is more similar to Christianity .
Victoruto 1 year ago
@Victoruto Why did god need to put on a show in order to forgive sins? Why did he put a "tree" of knowledge there and command that they not "eat" from it in the first place?
Your analogy is a bit weak. What ultimate sacrifice does god make? If he is Jesus, his giving up his life lasted 3 days tops, as he is still living. Whereas the mysterious man who offers himself for this condemned group gives up the only life he has ever had. It seems like a bit of a joke on gods part in my opinion.
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
@TheDeadlyGamesman You have raised a number of issues, to which each has had many books dedicated. In short, He put the tree there because the faith of Adam and Eve must be tested. They must freely choose to obey God, and there can be no choice if their is no option to disobey Him. I do not understand your question about God putting on a show to forgive sin. Perhaps you can explain.
Yes, the analogy is not perfect, but it is meant to demonstrate the type of sacrifice that is made.
Victoruto 1 year ago
@Victoruto He knows that they're going to fail. This is the same as asking why he makes Abraham go to the point of almost killing his son. It's more equivalent to gods TV -- he wants to be entertained, despite knowing the outcome before hand.
And that's my point about god putting on a show. WHY does it have to be this way that he forgives the sins of humanity? WHY does he have to embody himself, live a life, be tortured and then killed to redeem humanity? Why can't he just FORGIVE their sins?
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
@TheDeadlyGamesman To just forgive sins would require the sacrifice of God's justice. But at the Cross, mercy, justice, love, and wrath all met and were carried out to secure the salvation for man.
Had God not become man, He would not have experienced temptation, and would not have one the battle over sin. A perfect man had to die in sinful man's stead. Satan's accusations against God were thus proven wrong, and the sinfulness of sin was made manifest.
Victoruto 1 year ago
@Victoruto You didn't answer my question. God makes the rules, why does he have to make it so that some person had to be sacrificed in order to atone for sins? Why wouldn't the simple act of forgiving their sins be good enough for this god?
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
@TheDeadlyGamesman Such would be like Allah. But to just forgive means that justice is comprised. God does not and cannot comprise His justice. He is inherently a just God and "He cannot deny Himself" (2 Tim 2:13).
Victoruto 1 year ago
@Victoruto So god DOESN'T make the rules?
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
Not arbitrarily. He acts in accordance with His own unchanging character. And as I said earlier, the Cross vindicated the love and humility of God—that which Satan accused God of not possessing. At the Cross sin was revealed for the evil that it truly is, for it executed the Son of God.
You are not going to comprehend how we are saved in its entirety. There is much mystery to it, and no mind would deny this. But one does not have to know how food nourishes the body to know that it does.
Victoruto 1 year ago
@Victoruto So god's "saving" manifests in reality. Show it. We know food nourishes the body because we get sick when we haven't eaten and we can see the benefits of eating.
But you still haven't demonstrated why this cross and human sacrifice is necessarily needed to forgive those sins. You've offered conjectures, and lousy ones at that. If the cross and human sacrifice is somehow connected to his character, can you substantiate this? Can you offer anything other than mere guesses?
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
The only thing I can offer you is that which the Bible declares. The moment I set my reason above the texts of Scripture, I have denied the Bible as the ultimate authority—that which it claims to be. And I will not be an idolater.
As I have repeatedly stated, the Cross shows mercy yet preserves justice (and I doubt you cannot see this). God is merciful and just. Sin cannot not go unpunished, yet it must be forgiven that we may be reconciled to God. The Cross brings these two together.
Victoruto 1 year ago
@TheDeadly The sacrifice is not contained in the length of days Jesus was in the tomb. The sacrifice is contained in the fact that for the first time in eternity Christ was separated from the Father by sin—a separation that man cannot wholly comprehend. After being horribly tortured He sunk into death with the world's sin borne in His body. The Son of God died shamefully and guiltily, paying the punishment that was due to us. Justice had been met and Christ's righteousness is offered to all.
Victoruto 1 year ago
@Victoruto
yes but, even so jesus was still a human sacrifice.
even if jesus did it willingly he is still sacrificing his life so others will have a better life.
jesus was also human.
human sacrifice.
AceofDiamonds0 1 year ago
@AceofDiamonds0 Sure, I have no problem with that. As long as we remember that there was only one sacrifice for all time, and that it was a self-sacrifice.
Victoruto 1 year ago
@AceofDiamonds0 how can Jesus have been a sacrifice in the sense we know it? if God knows all and is all knowledgeable then he knew this sacrifice was temporary, therefore it was not a sacrifice. he knew he was coming back. that is NOT a sacrifice!
leekucia 1 year ago
@leekucia
ya but its not like getting hit by a bus. jesus didnt just die, he was nailed to a couple pieces of wood and left to die.
even if jesus knew he was coming back, he still felt the pain.
jesus didnt just die, he suffered.
AceofDiamonds0 1 year ago
@AceofDiamonds0 so why is this called the ultimate sacrifice? this is what im getting at, 1000s of people were killed this way and many were much worse with braking of limbs etc jesus ( not that i beleive he existed ) knew he would come back and knew what was going to happen, that is not sacrifice, its suffering yes, but not sacrifice,there was no fear of death here
leekucia 1 year ago
wait how does a christian try to argue that God doesn't accept human sacrifice? Isn't that the basis of christianity...
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 In most pagan religions a person (many times a child) would be sacrificed to appease a god of nature, as though these gods were thirsty for blood. In Christianity, human sacrifice can not atone for sin, for all men are sinful. The atoning sacrifice could only be carried out by the Son of God as a propitiation for sin. He took our sin, and gave us His righteousness. No longer are we condemned. "We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:10)
Victoruto 1 year ago
@Victoruto but pagan religions also have a god man sacrificed to save the world from their sins, like osirus, and dyonisus, and mithras. It is still a human sacrifice. I was just pointing out the irony that a christian would question a human sacrifice when that is the base of their belief.
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 Quote a passage from the original sources that show that Osirus, Dyonisus, or Mithras sacrificed themselves for the sins of the world.
Victoruto 1 year ago
@Victoruto well thats not the point I was trying to make but there are numerous, including the writings of Ctesias (400BC) Trust, ye saints, your Lord restored,
"Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured."
what that says is "believe in our lord for he suffered for our sins and granted us salvation."
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 First, Ctesias lived in the 4th centurcy B.C., not 4000 B.C.
Second, he did not speak English (which did not exist until well after Christ). It was later made into a English rhyme. The literal translation reads, "Trust, ye communicants; the God having been saved, there shall be to us out of pain, Salvation." (Higgins Anacalypsis, vol. ii, p. 114)
It is thus the god who is saved, and out of our pains there is salvation. As can be seen, this nothing close to Christianity.
Victoruto 1 year ago
@Victoruto cool, dont care, my only point is that christianity is founded on a human sacrifice so I was pointing out the irony of the callers concern
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 What do you mean by human sacrifice? If you mean that God desires the continual sacrifices of humans to satisfy his bloody-thirsty nature, then this is of course wrong. But if you mean that God Himself, the second Person of the Trinity, became a man to die for a world that was doomed to destruction, so that they may live eternally, then this is true.
But as can be seen, this in no way compares to the human sacrifices like those in pagan traditions.
Victoruto 1 year ago
@Victoruto i mean human sacrifice in terms of, a person was killed to bargain with God in some way, and God accepted the sacrifice. I'm not sure why that's confusing.
moddie84 1 year ago
@Victoruto He never said Ctesias lived in 4000 BCE.
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
@TheDeadlyGamesman Your right, I misread. My apologies to all.
Victoruto 1 year ago
let me say something, let me finish, hold on. stupid caller
firethower99 1 year ago
He is making black people look very irrational & logical
TheNubian100 1 year ago
There are a good number of times in the Old Testament, where God helps one side conqour another people's city (in some cases, even ordering it).
'Guess he changed his mind about all of that "Thou shalt not kill" stuff.
But that's ok, because he changed it back again when Jesus came on the scene.
That's when it was finally time for that new "Love thy neighbor" "Forgive those who trespass against you" and "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" stuff.
SinnFein4ever 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I'm right and you're wrong and here's no evidence to support that.
ninjajesus81 1 year ago
jesus was one form of human sacrifice. no offence,but I think that's the case.
karrpoff 1 year ago
Why do blacks call in? They are obviously too stupid to argue!! hahahaha
studdedtires 1 year ago
@studdedtires Thanks again youtube, for reminding me we still have a long way to go...
rrpostalagain 1 year ago
@rrpostalagain Thanks again youtube, for reminding me that even stupid little cunts like this can type some stupid comment...
studdedtires 1 year ago
@studdedtires ...and the hits just keep on comin'
rrpostalagain 1 year ago
I find it funny how the almighty creator of the universe can't even get his flock, his only representatives here on Earth (Christians) to agree and unite into one denomination. If the Christian God's word is the one true word, then I wonder why it is he doesn't seem to care that there are literally hundreds of different versions of it. Maybe its because he doesn't exist.
nosajj12345 1 year ago
These guys are missing the fact that just because something is recorded in the bible doesn't mean that God is happy with it. The scripture referenced is Judges 11:29-40, and there is nothing there indicating that God was happy with this sacrifice.
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen If they had said god was happy with it, that might be relevant. The argument is that god accepts a human sacrifice, which means he endorses it in some form, however little it may be. And judging by the NT and the sacrifice of Jesus, it's a pretty big theme for him.
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago 5
@TheDeadlyGamesman Ah, I suppose you have to be clear what you mean by "human sacrifice". I mean of course humans sacrificing other humans to please or worship God, or even honor a vow, as was the case here. My point is God never endorses this practice, and this scripture does not even imply that God didn't consider Jephthah a murderer for what he did! To say that "God accepts human sacrifice", perhaps you mean that God doesn't stop it from happening?
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen Yahweh has a choice here: A) accept Jephthah's offer and give him the battle, B) reject it, and presumably Jephthah loses. If he rejects it, we're not here talking about this. Instead he accepted it.
If Yahweh is omniscient, he KNEW it would be Jephthah's daughter and clearly had no moral objection to Jephthah offering her as a burnt offering as a quid pro quo, or whatever it was. If he's not all knowing, then it hit him as a surprise but he still opted to allow it to happen.
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago 16
@TheDeadlyGamesman You are assuming those are the only two choices. Does God not give good to the sinner? Does God not let the evil become powerful? He does over and over! (If you want to ask why, this is a different debate). There are more choices, for instance, C) give Jephthah the battle in his favour and then consider Jephthah immoral and evil for sacrificing his child. There is no reason this is not an option.
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen The point is that Yahweh shows no moral objections to the idea of human sacrifices. If he did, why would he let it happen in any cases? Would you allow your child to be sacrificed to god if you had one? Yahweh accepted a human sacrifice. He passively not stopping it is just as bad as him directly endorsing it. I'll quote Spider-Man: With great power comes great responsibility.
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
@TheDeadlyGamesman You are in error because you do not know the bible. God clearly is opposed to the sacrifice of humans to worship. See Lev 18:21: ‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD." Now suppose you say "Well, the problem there is sacrificing to Molek, not God.
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen So here's an all powerful, benevolent, omniscient being who interacts with humans. One human asks god to help him win the battle, and in return he'll sacrifice the first thing he sees upon arrival home as a burnt offering. I'm to believe this god doesn't endorse human sacrifices in any way?
Your student asks you for help on the test and says they'll kill the next thing that walks through the door; it's your daughter. In what fucked up way are you to allow this to happen?
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
@TheDeadlyGamesman "Your student asks you for help on the test and says they'll kill the next thing that walks through the door [if they get the help]". So, if I act kindly towards the person providing them help, I am responsible for what they choose to do afterwards? What if I told God that if he didn't put 1Mill in my bank account right now, I would go out and [insert evil thing here]. Would then God be responsible for me doing it if he didn't give me the million? No, of course not.
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen An ultimatum isn't the same as asking a favour. We don't blame the bank teller for giving a robber money because we understand they were coerced, not an accomplice (unless they were, which could be the case, but not usually.)
If you have a moral objection to cheating (and let's assume it's an exam, to give it a bit more weight) as well as a moral objection to human sacrifices, why would you be a willing participant in the proposition offered by the student?
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
@TheDeadlyGamesman You're right, but there are no ultimatums with God. We can't threaten him with any real harm. But lets not get too far off course. All I am saying is this: Jephthah made a stupid and sinful decision to 1) commit to God to sacrifice something that came out of his door, and 2) actually go through the the stupid and sinful vow and sacrifice his daughter. This is never contradicted by God. It was not stopped by God, but God never stops us from sinning, so this is meaningless.
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen If god has some moral objection to human sacrifices, why does this god give Jephthah the battle he requests victory in which will lead to the human sacrifice? Why wouldn't this all powerful being devise a plan that simply excludes this immoral act all together?
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
Let's put you in god's shoes for a second and say you know the future. Would you help that person with the "test"? This is the exact junction we're at with god. If he's morally opposed to it, why did he give Jephthah the battle in the first place? If he wanted Jephthah to win without the human sacrifice, why not OPPOSE his stupid proposition of the sacrifice?
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
@TheDeadlyGamesman ...Then you are silly, since the bible still does talk about it in many other scriptures, including an evil king in 2 Chronicles 28:3 who sacrifices his children.
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen That's a REALLY big stretch. By that argument nothing in the bible is necessarily relevant. You are basically calling the bible worthless, although I'm pretty certain there are parts that you claim as vital to your very existence. It's just a weak attempt at a "get out of this evil meaning of this verse" card.
rrpostalagain 1 year ago
@rrpostalagain It's not a big stretch. The bible is a historical book as well as a guide to life. For instance, in Genesis 37, it records the selling of Joseph as a slave. I don't think God ever condemns this action specifically. What about just the fact that his brothers hate him (Gen 37:8)? Certainly its not morally acceptable, and yet God doesn't speak on it. Why? I think it's because it is obvious! From the rest of the bible, it's clear that Jephthah sacrificing his child was evil to God.
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen Then why did God accept the sacrifice? Why didn't he just say something to the effect of, "That's evil to me, begone with your awful idea."
PosFlow 1 year ago
@PosFlow Ah, so now you are moving to the OTHER discussion: why does God not stop us from sinning. This is a completely different discussion, and I will not get into it here. The issue IS that God is not happy with Jephthah for what he did.
Also, be careful when you say "God accepts". What does that mean? God does NOT encourage this behaviour. God does NOT endorse this behavior. But, God DOES let it happen. God DOES bless this man, despite his sin. Define "accepts". :)
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen No, no. I'll define "accepts" as God allowing the "sacrifice" to go through. As in, if he didn't accept it, it wouldn't have been a "sacrifice", because God wouldn't have granted him victory in battle. But God DID grant him victory, which means God decided to take up the bargain. If God didn't think it was a moral deal or wasn't happy with Jephthah, then he wouldn't have endorsed it by keeping up his end. I don't see how you can say that God does not encourage that behavior....
PosFlow 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen ..cont...God not stopping us from sinning is actually the different issue. Sinning, as I understand it, takes part separate from God. In order to sin, I'm pretty sure it requires defiance of God's will. How, then, can a sacrificial act like this be considered a sin, if that's what you're saying? God is an active participant - a collaborator - in the act, so it can't be wrong. Unless God is acting immorally by throwing up his hands and saying "Dammit, Jephthah, alright, you win."
PosFlow 1 year ago
@PosFlow Actually, your definition of "accepts" means that God accepts our sin - he allows it to happen. If he is God, he is omnipotent and could stop us from sinning. He doesn't, and yet God doesn't accept our sin, and he is not responsible for it. You make a logical error here: just because God DID grant him victory does not mean that he "took up the bargain". If I told God that if 1mill is NOT in my bank in 5secs, I will do something evil, would he be responsible if I did it? Ofcourse not.
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen If you changed your bank account example to you asking God for a million dollars, and saying if he gave it to you, you would kill someone, and he said OK...then you'd have an accurate example.
PosFlow 1 year ago
@PosFlow No, not at all. That would be a good example only if Jephthah was a horrible warrior with a stupid low chance of success. Judges 11:1 starts off with how awesome a warrior Jephthah was.
A better eg of this situation is me, a university math teacher, who has to fill out a skill testing question (like 4*500/2 + 600 - 100) saying something like "God, if you help me answer this skill testing question right, then I will worship u by killing my wife"...how ridiculous to blame God!
RobertBorgersen 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen It also says his mother was a prostitute. How superfluous.
You must be a reasonable man. If a group prays for someone to recover from some terminal disease, do you praise god or the doctors who administered the medicine?
"Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands."
Evidently god had more of a role in this then some would say. Not to mention he HAD to keep his vow to the lord, as if this vow meant something.
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen Of course you could say god would never want anyone to go back on their promise. But that just shows his callous disregard for the life of a human being.
TheDeadlyGamesman 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen I know we're running in circles here, but I just don't understand why god couldn't just say no. If it's not an act he condones, then why not just refuse? Unless we get somewhere with this conversation, though, I think I'll just let you answer and we'll be done with it.
PosFlow 1 year ago
@RobertBorgersen Obviously I disagree. If that's how you interpret all of those instances in the bible, I can't argue with you. It seems more than obvious to me. I don't know how you could even read a menu if you see so many things "between the lines". If this were any book besides the one you have invested so much time and life into, I am confident you would not see it as you do. It's not even a debate if we read the same exact words yet somehow see them differently.
rrpostalagain 1 year ago
You've got to be kidding! God doesn't accept human sacrifice?
The whole religion is based on the idea that the brutal sacrifice of a man/god brings salvation to mankind. Human sacrifice is at the core of the religion.
PJDolan1 1 year ago 2
@PJDolan1 Very good point :) Somehow christians manage to ignore or just avoid thinking about how horrific the central theme of their faith really is
tecciztucatl 1 year ago
the guy in the red is awsome he reminds me of the guy from pawn stars
zubestr 1 year ago
the jew zombie that was "sacrificed"
patrickledford420 1 year ago
No human sacrifice in the bible>??? OK, maybe I am missing something here, but is not the Christian releigion BASED on the human sacrifice of Jesus????
irish655 1 year ago
Why bring up Jeptha? That is too obscure for Christians who only know the 5 nicie nice stories and a few quotes from the bible to make up their faith. When someone asserts that God doesnt accept human sacrifice, just say "Jesus" and watch them squirm.
CorndogMaker 1 year ago
@CorndogMaker No squirming necessary. Pagan human sacrifices ( e.g., passing children through fire) were done to please the bloodthirsty gods of nature. Jesus Christ (God Himself), however, willingly let Himself be crucified as an atonement for sin. He "gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world". He took our place in punishment, so that we may live and inherit that which we do not deserve.
Victoruto 1 year ago
Makes me squirm. The only loophole for the game that He made Himself, which the all knowing and all powerful God can think of to save everyone, is a blood sacrifice of himself to himself. No one understands the reason why that would work. Does the blood of Himself give Him some kind of extra forgiving ectoplasm? is there some cosmic balance that He is subject to? In Pagan rituals it was at least understood as a life/death cycle, just like anything in nature. It's asinine that God needed blood.
CorndogMaker 1 year ago
@CorndogMaker The reason why sacrifice is necessary is because the "wages of sin is death." Sin separates man from his Creator, and when we are separated from the Source of all life, the necessary entailment is death. But as Christ died to sin and rose again the third day, we can not only partake of His death, but partake of His renewed life. When we stand before God, we will not be seen in our iniquity, but seen in Christ's righteousness. Our sins will be forgotten, for they have been paid for.
Victoruto 1 year ago
Is that just how God's magical ability's work? The way I understand it, he needs us to telepathically transfer all of our sin into some kind of pure vessel so that he can then destroy it.
Or does he magically transfer the death of Jesus on to us so that it somehow fools the cosmic balance into thinking that WE payed it's necessary price already and can sneak through a loophole?
God sure has a lot of limitations.
He was cornered by us naughty mortals and had no other choice but to take blood.
CorndogMaker 1 year ago
@CorndogMaker You can add the word "magical" for effect if you like, but it serves no purpose. And no, we do not transfer our sins, it is God who transfers them (symbolically of course, for sins are not material things). There are no loopholes, and God is only limited by the necessity of justice. I would all but be surprised at your mockery, for Paul said, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor 1:18)
Victoruto 1 year ago
It isn't for effect, I have no other word for such things. I would defiantly not call it justice, it should be obvious that no one deserves infinite punishment for finite deeds no matter how horrible they are. there is a reason that there's no court that would accept someone taking on the punishment for someone elses crimes. Do you agree with that absurd notion? Even if I saw resurrected Jesus appear to me, as Paul got to, I would still be baffled by the inane sacrifice system God works in.
CorndogMaker 1 year ago
@CorndogMaker If, by infinite punishment, you mean eternal death, then there is certainly justice in this; but if you mean eternal torment, then I would agree that this is unjust. But the Bible does not teach eternal torment. This is a doctrine that has unfortunately trickled into the Christian church, but with the Scriptural warrant. Secondly, where do you get your standard of justice? Is it objective?
Victoruto 1 year ago
That's sick.Eternal punishment for finite crimes is against the definition of justice, because it is grotesquely imbalanced. Selecting someone to be annihilated forever can never be justified. That is why Lady Justice carries a little balance. the idea of retributive justice predates the bible and exists in most cultures.It comes from people using empathy to form working societies. as a mortal I question even equal retributive justice and often think of setting a better example or rehabilitation
CorndogMaker 1 year ago
His argument is essentially this: "You have to be wrong because I don't like you pointing out the barbarism in my holy book"
VesusSheist 1 year ago 2
@VesusSheist #LOL Yes, that's quite an accurate summary
Direkin 1 year ago
Yahweh is the meanest, most vindictive evil nutjob excuse for a god ever....and Jesus was no big sacrifice. Many others sufferered more than the Jewish zombie did, and he got etental life afterwards.
MercuryRis 1 year ago
@MercuryRis Is this your personal subjective opinion, or are you comparing Him to an absolute standard to justify such moral judgments? If the former, then why should anyone care about your subjective dislikes? If the latter, then by what standard do you make such moral judgments?
Victoruto 1 year ago