Weiner and Maddow Expose Republican Hypocrisy on Health Care Reform 11/6/09

[hookalakah]

Be careful what you wish for, Lordy. Right about now--in the middle of the 'Weinergate' imbroglio--Congressman Weiner has gotten a whole lot of views. Unfortunately they're not for the reasons you or he would like.

"With a name like Weiner, you're an easy target." Only if you do the stupid stuff that you do and try to lie your way out of it, Congressman Weiner.

[stama9]

can't get healthcare no matter what you do....unbelievable!

[treid100182]

Anthony Weiner is the truth...

...good to see that at least NY has an honest, hard-working Congressman...

Weiner for Pres. 2012

[dustinjt]

Please run for higher office Congressman Weiner. We need a Senator to fill the shoes of the Liberal Lion. I think you're that guy.

[GreenEnergy2112]

Anthony is a very strong, articulate liberal voice... I agree he could run for higher office and should to further the progressive movement.

[NakedWombat666]

@dustinjt agreed.

[luchpockets]

I am soooo embarrassed by those people demonstrating, and they are the religious right ?

This country is really becoming twisted !

Do they ever listen to what the rest of the World is saying regarding health care ?

I cannot blame the rest of the World for thinking that the US is losing it's grip on reality !

I must agree from what we see and hear !

[bushputz]

The estimated physical count for the Bachmann debacle is from 3,000 to 4,000.

The psychiatric count is much higher - you have to multiply the number of people by the average number of voices in their heads...

[Greywyn7]

3500 times 1 (Jesus lol) = 3500.

She's still full of it.

[Greywyn7]

What happens when you don't get insurance?

If they have an emergency and they DO have it, the insurance company pays for it, it's all good.

If they DON'T have it, they walk into the hospital, the hospital HAS to treat them, resulting in much higher premiums for EVERYONE.

The only other alternative is to turn away people without insurance; in which case you have people sitting in stretchers outside the hospitals, waiting to die.

[ufbret]

WHy would you send someone to jail or fine them upto $25k if:

They dont require insurance or

can afford to pay for treatment themselves.

[Greywyn7]

Don't require insurance? How do you know? Do you know everything that's ever going to happen to you? Good drivers still have car insurance.

As for being rich enough to not need it... I don't know. I'd think they'd already take that into account and exempt them.

[ufbret]

Would you make a person who dont drive a car buy insurance? Under the threat of fines and jailtime nonetheless. Thats synonymous with forcing a person who does not want health inusrance to buy buy it.

[NakedWombat666]

@ufbret i would argue citizens should purchase healthcare because what do we do if they are injured on the road, unconscious? check their card - oops no insurance. leave him there?

[Greywyn7]

Remember the Republican plan? If you get hurt, die quickly.

[ufbret]

What happens to the uninsured now?

[Greywyn7]

Health insurance is to protect your health. Do you not have health? What are you, undead?

[ufbret]

Seriously? Thats the best you have? ITs a simple question. Would you force a person to buy auto insurance if they dont drive?

[grausammesser]

But the analogy doesn't work. They don't drive so they don't pose a risk of having a car accident. Is there anyway you can live without the risk of falliong sick?

[ufbret]

Your assessment is wrong....you are comparing getting sick to having to have health insurance. Not everyone who gets sick requires health insurance.

Further, auto insurance is a state mandated, not Federal. This bill is obviously mandated by the feds.

Also, auto insurance is forced upon drivers primarily to cover the person you hit, not for yourself, which makes perfect sense. Forcing one to buy health insurance for themselves, simply is unconstitutional.

[grausammesser]

No, I'm comparing getting sick to getting into a car accident. You say not everyone who gets sick needs health insurance, well not everyone who gets into an accident needs car insurance.

You're touching on what I think is the central question to this all: Is having health insurance in this day and age a necessity or a luxury?

The arguement is that it has become a necessity and in order to protect the public an affordable plan needs to be provided.

[ufbret]

dont change your premise,....you are making the claim that if you get sick you rewuire health insurance

"The arguement is that it has become a necessity .....: Validate your claim....why is a necessity?? Your making a hasty generaliztion.

[grausammesser]

First of all, I'm not changing my premise. I was stating what I had compared getting sick to.

Secondly, I was stating what I think the arguement for the mandate is.

Thirdly, I think it's a necessity because healthcare costs are a high figure in reasons for bankruptsy for one. Or die because they cant afford it and wait until it's an emergency - which severely threatens their life.

Lastly, I made no generalization. I simply posed a question I think is fundamental to the discussion of hc

[ufbret]

You made the hasty generalization that health insurance is a necissity....what about those who can afford to be treated when and if they have to be treated, what aboout college kids? I didnt have health insurance until years after graduation, why? I didnt need it.

[ufbret]

The same way I can produce a subgroup of people who dont need or dont want insurance is the same way you can produce a subgroup of people who do need it.

But, since this is a federally mandated law, that impacts everyone through participation, taxation or fines and jailtime, then the onus is yours to prove everyone needs health insurance. You cant do that.

[grausammesser]

Ok but the idea is that you might not need to use the health insurance. However, what if in those years after college you had been hit by a car and broken both legs. Obviously until that point you had no need of insurance, but you soon find out that you in fact needed to have health insurance.

Fines make sense to me because, in essence it is raising the price of the emergency services we already provide because those people have decided to put themselves at higher risk.

[ufbret]

Again the onus upon you to prove that everyone NEEDS health insurance....your example is hypothetical (Argumentum Ad Speculum) . In turn , I could tell you, hypothetically, that I was a billionaire who simply would have paid for it out of pocket,..thats why hypos dont work. So please, tell me why every American should be forced to buy insurance?

[grausammesser]

Ok, hypotheticals can work when you make reasonable assumptions. The reason that hypothetical works is because any American can get hit by a car and break their leg and a proportion aren't billionaires who can pay for it out of pocket.

So yeah when you add assumptions about that person you can make it work in your direction. What I'm saying is that any random American can be struck by a medical emergency, and in those cases where they cant pay out of pocket it is fairly essential.

[ufbret]

But your hypothetical didnt work...I wasnt hit by a car, I didnt need insurance. Then you repeat your fallacy by making a claim that at any given time any random American can be struck by a medical emergency. Well, great, at any given time a random American can win the Lotto. At any given time, an American can be struck with an emergency and they can pay for that emergency out of pocket. You have failed to prove your premise that insurance is a necessity for everyone.

[grausammesser]

My hypothetical didn't fail to work because it didn't happen. That is not how a hypothetical works. I was proposing a what if you were to have been hit by a car. Not everyone is blessed with 20/20 forsight to know exactly when they will have an emergency.

You continue to make assumptions that any random American could pay out of pocket. In this day, insurance has become the standard in paying for healthcare costs. Yes, it's possible to do it otherwise, but some cant.

[ufbret]

"Yes, it's possible to do it otherwise, but some cant"...You have just conceded. Your initial premise was that insurance is a neccesity. You are contradicting yourself.

[grausammesser]

No, what I'm saying is that it is a necessity because if you can't pay for it out of pocket, the bill still needs to get paid. In this sense, it is a necessity as much as the fire department and the police are a necessity. Sure you can sometimes take care of that small fire, but in the case you can't, it still needs to be put out.

[ufbret]

Sorry, but your intial premise was that eveyone needs insurance....now you have adjusted your premise to be that "yes, it is possible otherwise" to not require insurance. Your example is a contraction: sometimes you neeed the fire dpt. sometime you dont....? So again, defend your position that everyone should be mandated to have health insurance, when you readily admit, some people just dont need it.. A debate can not move forward on a false premise.

[grausammesser]

I haven't moved on from my premise - that is all we've been going back an forth on. You've misinterpretted me - what I had said was that you can pay a medical bill without insurance. As in a doctor will not accept only insurance.

And my example is not a contradiction. Can we agree everyone needs a fire department?

Assuming a yes: On certain cases using the fire department is not essential. Just as in certain medical incidents using a doctor or using the insurance is not

(continued)

[ufbret]

"what I had said was that you can pay a medical bill without insurance"....you never wrote that...you wrote:

"The arguement is that it (health insurance) has become a necessity "

Your proving yourself wrong....health insurance is not a necessity that should be forced upon every citizen of this country. I am still waiting for you to prove why every person should be insured, or face more.taxes or face fines or face jailtime.

[grausammesser]

I was refering to you using my quote of "yes, it is possible otherwise"

[grausammesser]

Now the existence of these cases does not mean someone doesn't need insurance because there are cases where people most definitely need to use the insurance. Having insurance and using it, I would contend, are very different.

So, similar to how you pay for the coverage of the fire department that you can use in a fire emergency, you pay for the coverage to use insurance in the case of a medical emergency.

[ufbret]

Your fire department analogy does not work. If your house is buring down you have no other choice but to call the fire dept. There is no other alternative, no other infrastructure to cover the risk.

With health insurance, there are alternatives, as you have admitted yourself...you can pay out of your own pocket....or perhaps you wont get sick enough to warrant hospital stays at all.

[grausammesser]

You do have choices though: you can put it out yourself or you could just let the fire burn itself out. this would be similar to paying out of pocket and not seeking care, respectively.

[ufbret]

The fire deptartment analogy is one great big red herring. Why? Your making another hasty generalization, that all people are going to need the fire dept and that all people are going to get sick and require insurance. AND, if someone wants to let their house burn down, that is their decision. IF I own the house outright, I am not required to have insurance. So again, give me justification that health insurance is a necessity.

[grausammesser]

Now I would like to ask a few things. To me it sounds like you would argue that if you can afford the out of pocket expense you shouldn't purchase it - obviously they could, but it sounds as if you're saying that insurance only acts as a cost without benefit to them. How come there don't seem to be any numbers that show people with the money don't go uninsured? Most uninsured go becuase they can't, not because they don't want to.

[Greywyn7]

Your question is an unbelievably stupid one. HEALTH INSURANCE protects your HEALTH. Unless you're insanely rich, who DOESN'T need their health protected?

[ufbret]

Well, I didnt need not have insurance until well after college graduation, so theres one example, your example of the wealthy is another example, someone who doesnt get sick enough to warrant hospital bills...theres yet another example...why would you force those people to buy something, through taxation , fines or prison sentence to buy something they either dont want or dont need? Where is the consititutional justification of that?

[Greywyn7]

Wow. Let me get this straight; you happened to avoid getting injured in college, therefore you didn't need health insurance? You do understand the IDEA behind INSURANCE, don't you?

And no, there is no constitutional justification for it. There isn't constitutional justification behind making hospitals treat those without insurance either. We should just let them die on the streets.

[ufbret]

I was asked for example of people who didnt need insurance....I gave them. Again, the onus is upon people like you to prove that all Americans should be forced, via taxation, fines or jailtime, to purchase health insurance. Your arguments are built on straw men, begging the question and hasty generalizations. Please, explain to me why every citizen should be required to buy insurance?

[Greywyn7]

Reading does wonders for reading comprehension, I suggest you do it more often.

People DO NOT KNOW if anything will happen to them. If something DOES happen to them, and they DO have insurance, they're fine. If something happens to them and they DON'T have it, WE pay for it.

Do I really need to explain this further? Your idiocy amazes me.

[ufbret]

Ad hominem doesnt work....I am degreed...which would require more than a bit of reading of comprehension

So, are simply refusing to answer the question put forth? If so, just stop throwing fallacy after fallacy into the conversation.

[Greywyn7]

I've answered the questions numerous times, moron. You're only defense is that you can, IN HINDSIGHT, say that you didn't need insurance during a certain time period.

Take a few logic classes you moron.

[ufbret]

@Greywyn7 I have taken logic, apparently you havent since your use of ad hominem comes so easily. I dont really need it it now and Im not insanely rich, well off, but not insanely rich. Im really not sweating the bill...its toast, even after 12 mos of filibuster proof majority status....what a failure.

[gqsmoothie]

I heard that Bachmann's "protest" had 5 gazillion attendees.

[cokmobot]

God Bless the University of Oh, Uh, I Don't Remember Which!!

<3 OUIDRW U <3

[Textynn]

We don't want government funded health care that requires poverty upon entry. We want it for ALL without financial oversight.

Single Payer Now

[LordAsiram]

I wish this guy got more views.

[luchpockets]

Congressman Weiner and Rachel Maddow , just want to say thank you for your honesty and all of your hard work !

[KennyTheQuad]

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