A Two-Tier Proposal for Teacher Pay - Michelle Rhee

[itsjustme2919]

One thing I wish everyone would get right: You CAN fire a tenured teacher. It can happen. This whole business of tenure means you can't get fired is bullshit. What it means is instead of your boss breathing down your neck all day long, you simply might get checked on every once or twice a year. Which, if you have been awarded tenure, that means you must have been good to recieve it which means the liklihood of working so hard to just throw it all away and become a bad teacher is small.

[fitnesschaser01]

@itsjustme2919 I would love my principle to evaluate my child's teachers everyday instead of once or twice a year. It's very easy for a teacher to "fake" teaching, if they only have to do it on those evaluation days. And I'm one of the students who had teachers like that. Who only taught once or twice a year. Chemistry and Physical Education.

[itsjustme2919]

@fitnesschaser01 everyday? how is that possible with 80 teachers in a building?

[JohnLeeMD]

@itsjustme2919 While they "can" be fired, we both know that it's not done often. And you can't really blame the admin. They know the extra steps it takes to get a teacher fired, and they aren't willing to do it JUST for 1

(bad) teacher. One point I'd like to make on this too: "Bad" teachers aren't the problem. MEDIOCRE or COMPLACENT teachers are the problem. And this is much harder to try to document (i.e. for purpose of firing). That problem is almost rampant, and surely common IMO.

[itsjustme2919]

@JohnLeeMD wouldn't say rampant. I think we need to stop treating education in this country as a one way street. What about bad parents? I think a great way to really force kids to learn is fine parents of students that start failing too many classes. I don't believe in nanny states but it would surprise how many parents have no idea what raising a child is about. The grades and low scores would turn around in a heartbeat if you hit them in the wallet.

[itsjustme2919]

@itsjustme2919 and I can say with experience my teachers may have introduced the lesson, but the fear of my mother's punishment for a bad grade certainly helped keep me focused too.

[MsJanetWood]

Michelle Rhee claims that she took 90% of her students from the 13th percentile to the 90th percentile or above in less than 2 years!

Isn’t that statistically impossible? “Normal Distribution”? “Bell Curve”?

Why hasn’t anyone interviewed her former students? Or their parents? Or her former principal? Or her former co-workers? Her fellow teachers?

I’m sure they all will have plenty to say about those scores!

Where's the proof of her academic success?

[lvll138inrs]

they should just privatize education. private schools vastly outperform public school

[MsJanetWood]

Teacher "X" teaches 5 classes. He teaches 3 Algebra classes, 1 Advanced Algebra class, and 1 remedial class. His first four classes are okay, but his last class is utter chaos!

Why?

Is it because the class has 43 students instead of 35?

Or maybe because the majority of the students don't speak English?

Could it be that it's late in the day and the kids are tired?

Or maybe, just maybe, the kids are DOWN-RIGHT LAZY?

Stop blaming the hard-working, dedicated teachers!

[firstlaunch]

@MsJanetWood -I haven't heard any one blaming hard working , dedicated teachers. WE ARE BLAMING THE LAZY ONES!!

[MrGidgid4u]

thank god the parents at DC had the sense to get rid of this poisonous person who wants to create a systwem of segregation because charters are not regulated and only take higher performing kids... away with blaming teachers instead of the politicians who under fund education and then go after teachers... go away

[scnelson00]

Ioport, you must have had some terrible teachers in succession to feel the way you do. The teacher that were in my education were amazing. Intelligent, kind, apt, and with the ability to reach students from different backgrounds. It is sad to hear someone with such a poor outlook when I had such a wonderful one.

[BandofSorensons]

@scnelson00 I suppose that's why anecdotal evidence is useless? Anyway, in large part, it's a function of where you live. Some people are charmed with decent public schools but the fact of the matter is that most people are not. Some areas completely fail to attract very many competent teachers for the same reasons they fail to attract much of anything else beyond fast food, drugs, liquor stores and pawn shops. Something has to change here and better teachers is a good place to start.

[MrRandyDick]

Such proposals are usually a divide and conquer tactic used by enemies of public

education because they don't want to pay higher salaries to teachers with advanced

degrees. With the cost of graduate credits going up, this is a way to starve teachers

out. For example, a teacher with a bachelors makes $1500 less (varies) per year than one with a masters. You have to ask yourself, will $1500 be enough

incentive for your child's teacher. It will make them a better teacher.

[MrRandyDick]

She's young and naive. Tenure just means basically two things. 1: you get evaluated once a year instead of twice. 2: If you get canned for anything that is

not illegal, you have the right to due process. So after 5 years, you flunk a football

player who sleeps through your class. His influential parents put pressure on the school board to get rid of you. You can take it to a district judge and be

reinstated. If you drive while intoxicated or commit fraud, it's adios to your job.

[claridiva2000]

teachers put up with alot of crap, which wouldn't be so bad except that crap keeps them from being able to do thier jobs correctly. the biggest factor in student achievement is parent involvement. if a student refuses to do the work, and the parents don't do thier part to make the kid do the work and admins take away all effective forms of dicipline teachers can do to make the student do the work, then what on earth is the teacher supposed to do?

[claridiva2000]

@claridiva2000

cont.

i think most teachers would be fine with keeping the current pay scales IF (that's a big IF) they are given enough tools and freedom to do their jobs effectively. what good does a teachers $100,000 salary do for students if there isn't enough money in the classroom budget for decent books and supplies. i'm a new teacher (on my 2nd year) so feel free to correct me. but in my experience the worst part of teaching was the completely lack of funds to run my classroom.

[claridiva2000]

@claridiva2000

cont.

my 35,000/ yr salary was hard to live on considering the cost of living, along with student loans was keeping me broke. but i could deal with that. because i'm not in this profession for the money. but i spent ALOT of my salary buying supplies for my classroom. which just should not happen.

so if rhee wants to fix things, instead of throwing free money into teachers pockets, why not put it where it belongs, in the CLASSROOM BUDGET!!

[claridiva2000]

i'm a teacher myself, and i couldn't disagree more with rhee. $100,000/year base pay is WAY too much. i do agree that teachers should be paid more in general, but at the same time, a 9month work year is very wasteful. summer break used to be neccesary when students had to work the farms, but that is not true of most students anymore. i'm not saying year-round school has to happen, but i think at least an 11 month school year would be more benificial. however, pay-for-performance isn't a solution

[MrRandyDick]

@claridiva2000 Teachers are employed for 9 and a half months and paid for

9 and a half months. Most of the teachers I know either work during the summer

at a job/business or go to school to pursue advanced degrees. Truman State

is a great school. These idiots don't deserve your attention.

[claridiva2000]

@MrRandyDick

aww!! thanks!

i'm pretty proud of my alma mater. go bulldogs!!

most teachers get 2nd jobs over the summer. though these days it seems most teachers are job hunting over the summer after being laid off...

[JaMalleMail]

Rhee should be running the entirety of the American school system, and then maybe American kids can catch up with the rest of the world... Even though our strength lies in our post-secondary education, I feel like it's backwards. we should be giving quality education from the bottom up.

[MondoBeno]

I'm all for bonuses for successful teachers, but I don't agree with making the salary based on student success. Here's why:

1. Truancy

2. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome

3. Lack of Principal's support

4. Violent students disrupt learning

5. 60 false fire alarms in one day

If you can't remove a disruptive student from the school, there's not much you can do.

[FTWEVEREYONE]

Excuse me, yes the school is 6.5 hours. Teachers have to PLAN lessons and make CORRECTIONS after schools hours. Teachers work an at least TEN hours a day. What the F--- are some of you saying.; they DON"T work 6.5 hours!!! They Work much more. Get your facts straight- idiots!!!!

[FTWEVEREYONE]

Unfortunately, school advocates in the city say that Rhee is the most secretive superintendent in memory, as well as the one who demonstrates the least understanding of budgeting

[zuzanarox]

what??? this is absurd!!! teachers are overpaid, not underpaid -- remember that teachers only work 9 months per year; plus they get paid for Christmas break, Spring break, and even snow days -- what the fuck! plus there typical day is like what 6 hours tops, whereas the rest of us work an 8 hour day -- stupid, stupid idea

[tickyul]

I bet all of those Urban Americans are mad, they had to bring in a Korean to fix the mess they have made. Maybe, just maybe the schools will see some improvement......NAH, not any real improvement.

[bigpanther]

There will be a HUGE shortage of teachers in the years to come because the word is getting out about all of the crap you will be put through-all for just trying to do your job. Maybe all the haters on here can go into teaching and fix all of the problems. They talk like they have all the answers. the truth is they would quit after one day.

[MondoBeno]

I hear you. I quit too, but after a few years, not one day. There already is a teacher shortage; the turnover rate is very high. In NYC, a lot of the teachers are "teaching fellows" who are in it to try it out. Half of them leave after one year.

[hunter1957]

Kudos to her for bringing much needed reform to K-12 education in the US. Tenure = Bullshit. Teachers' pay should be tied to performance: force rank them based on students' nationwide test scores (AP, SAT, ACT, etc). If a teacher makes the bottom 5% in the ranks two years in a row, fire him or her.

[jessavamyn]

don't forget that there are several subjects/grades that do not have standardized tests. The most straightforward value added measures can be given to teachers of tested elementary grades (where the students have one teacher all day long). When students switch from class to class and it is not clear what value a biology teacher adds to the comprehensive science score (much less the value a French or music teacher adds to such a test). Reform is needed; tests should be one aspect of evaluation

[sssssssss999999]

her ultimate goal is being appointed by obama to some high level position on the hill in washington...go to north korea bitch and work on their educational system

[sssssssss999999]

she should be teaching in north korea...thats where she belongs...judging by her nasty personality no wonder her personal life is in shambles

[MondoBeno]

Michelle Rhee is such a mean-spirited woman. She alienates the people who would be willing to help her.

Rhee thinks that a dysfunctional school means dysfunctional teachers. She's DEAD WRONG!

Most of DC's teachers are very qualified. They're just fighting an impossible conflict with the parents. It's the parents who are incompetent.

I've seen this before; broken schools, a string of superintenants who can't fix the problem, then you overempower the superintenant, and she makes it worse.

[scnelson00]

I'm a teacher, and I have seen other teachers that are more than accepting of the status quo. That don't make any effort to be better, to get more out of their students, that are willing to lower standards to get more passing grades. The attitude trickles down from the administrators most of the time, but some teachers are willing. I believe that what she says has merit and deserves more discussion. Blaming everyone is as productive as blaming no one. Solving one problem at a time is a must

[MondoBeno]

I like the idea of bonuses for sucessful teachers. As things are, great teachers are paying for the screw-ups of the incompetent ones.

My concern is that the incompetent ones already are inflating grades. I saw firsthand how the worst teachers inflate grades, and when the kids reach the next grade level, they are lacking skills/knowledge.

What DC needs is a massive birth-control program. We can't improve anything until we eradicate the teen-mom problem.

[scnelson00]

This is going to be a circular argument. You want to deal with a teen mom problem before we can handle any other problem. Jonathan Kozol, an author who focuses on similar issues, gave the idea in his books that poor education, along with many other factors, is a major contributor to teenage girls getting pregnant. Young women who have better educations, in general and not just a sexual education, are less likely to become pregnant in their teens. Better education paves the way for everything

[tamiagirl9]

you dont know what your talking about...

[MondoBeno]

And why is that, sweetie? Does your opinion somehow count more than mine?

[tamiagirl9]

yes, I grew up with teachers like you and Im glad your mad about it... if you are really interested in the lives of our children you would be 100% for what she is trying to do here. She will get what she wants and our children will be better for it... get on the bus or get left behind, thats your only option here :) and that makes me and millions of people happy! thanks Michelle, you truly are the definition of WOMAN!

[boscobear33]

Privatize t-he schools. It would save money and we the PEOPLE would get the best teachers teaching our children. As of now we the people do not get our TAX dollars worth out of this FLAWED School System. Teachers are the last to arrive in the mornings and the first to leave. Hell they make more money and get more benefits for working 6 months than most people do working 12 months a year.

[Nobama0000]

Tenure? Teachers are no more special than anyone else.

[ioport]

Teachers don't deserve to make more than 40k a year, TOPS. Most are losers and morons with little education and shit for brains.

[1988rogers]

Thank you! All these union Commies get job security to send kids to community colleges. while european and asian teachers get paid to send kids to medical school and become scientists.

[MrRandyDick]

@1988rogers Here's an analogy for you that maybe even you could understand.

If people who belong to unions are communists then tea party members are

Nazis. Most of our doctors and scientists went to public schools.

[Elin48]

@1988rogers what are you talking about? Union commies? Job security to send kids to community colleges...what is this?

Kids are going in droves through community colleges for the first two years because the costs are much less this way, making the whole four years more affordable.

[BandofSorensons]

@Elin48 Community colleges might be cheaper but they are certainly not comparable with real universities and liberal arts colleges in terms of educational quality or outcomes. Students coming to the university from community college are in large part STILL unprepared for academic work at the college level. I tell people who are not in the know that the best thing they can do is just skip community college, go straight to the source and find out whether or not college is going to be for them.

[Elin48]

@BandofSorensons that very may well be true, but just as all generalizations it's not entirely true, and especially now in today's financial crisis, many more students who might be able to go straight into a four year college academically, will not be able to financially. My daughter comes from a community college but from a completely different standpoint.

[BandofSorensons]

@Elin48 Aren't most college students unable to pay for college outside of loans? Yet you can get loans and then eventually pay them off in you're responsible. This makes sense since you really can't afford to not go to college in just about every possible way. I think that CC is cheaper but that it just isn't worth the money that you are actually spending on it. Most CC students never go on to four year schools. It's kind of a sucker trap. I'm glad your daughter is different.

[Elin48]

@BandofSorensons My daughter was accepted into Cal Poly San Luis Obispo in Architecture. She went there for a year and a quarter, but told me she was too depressed by the area (having come from the Bay Area where there was great diversity) and wanted to leave. She wanted to go to UCBerkeley instead, but a student can't transfer from Cal Poly to Cal very easily. Instead, she worked 36 hours a week, and took community college classes until she was able to apply, and has started UCB this fall.

[BandofSorensons]

@Elin48 She was depressed by SLO? My brother got his engineering degree there and he loved it (I went to UCLA and used to visit him and I loved it too). I think that you probably could transfer from Cal Poly but you would need to apply broadly. I got into UCLA from a horrible school, UTEP, and was rejected by lower ranked schools (Davis). I didn't apply to Berkeley. CC is fine for some, but the level of course work isn't on par with a university. I wish I had never wasted a single moment at UTEP

[audhilly]

what a fantasy life

[claridiva2000]

@ioport

If you can read this sentence, then you should thank a teacher.

I assure you, I'm no moron. I have 2 bachelors degrees and a masters. rhee's idea isn't very well thought-out. i'm not a big fan. but you have to remember that there can't be doctors, lawyers and scientists with out teachers. its a profession that isn't nearly as respected as it should be. as nice as it would be for me to make 6 figures, it won't fix anything. teacher salaries are not the REAL problem.

[ioport]

@claridiva2000 Big deal. Doesn't take much to get degrees nowadays, and I'm not sure why you need to mention yours. If you really want to go there, then what are your degrees in and what schools where you awarded them from? 

[claridiva2000]

@ioport my undergrad degrees are in music, grad degree in education. i graduated from truman state university.

i guess i invited scrutiny by even bringing up my own educational background. i was just trying to make the point that such huge generalizations about "most teachers" being uneducated idiots is false. blaming teachers for the failure of the education system is no better than rhee "rewarding" teachers regardless of thier actual effectiveness in the classroom.

[claridiva2000]

@ioport

i'm not trying to get into an "i'm smarter than you" contest.

i actually kind of agree with you in that this chick is crazy for even proposing a 25% raise in teacher base pay. as long as education is a government run service, teachers are public servants and should be paid as such. most teachers are honest people who do the best they can to teach children in a broken, under-funded system. so what ideas do you have to rid the schools of these moronic teachers?

[MrRandyDick]

@ioport Do us all a favor and home school YOUR kids. But let me give you

a little piece of advice. The next time you have a parent -teacher conference,

be nice to the well-educated person and try not to convey your contempt for them.

Teachers in general are professionals but they are also human and your kid

doesn't deserve to suffer for your stupidity.

[ioport]

@MrRandyDick Whatever you say, loser. My point, moron, is that "educated" is one of the last things most teachers are

[MrRandyDick]

@ioporthole You know most of today's university graduates owe tens of thousands

of dollars by the time they put in 4 or more years getting a degree. You must not

have one or you would be able to appreciate the sacrifice and difficulty of a college

education. Since you don't have one and probably work for less than a college

graduate would, that would make you the loser.

[ioport]

@MrRandyDick Yeah, you moron. I only wasted 4 years at a little school called UC Berkeley, spent "ten of thousands of dollars" as you say, and got this worthless little piece of paper called a college degree for nothing. Don't assume, jackass. Difficult? No, it wasn't too tough. Pain in the ass? Sure. Try going to a European university. Most still have old school standards and you really have to bust your sack just to get by. As for this country, standards have fallen through the floor.

[MrRandyDick]

@ioport You just lost cred by calling me names. What that screams is that you're

frustrated and have to throw a tantrum. Sorry you feel your degree from Berkley

is worthless. My degrees have helped keep me continuously employed through

several downturns in the economy. .BTW, I studied in both France and Mexico

so I don't think you have the right to lecture me. Maybe you should have gone

to a better university like Truman State.

[AshillaBeige]

@ioport Really fantastic teachers deserve good pay, but teachers should be started at about 35k, and only the good ones should get more.

[regresseur]

This woman needs a dose of reality. What does she think is going to happen by throwing all this money at teachers? Are they going to start teaching things that actually matter and do so in an effective manner? No, it's been proven scientifically and it is obvious, regardless, that giving someone a ton of money to do something whilst giving them no autonomy to do it promotes laziness, lack of incentive / enthusiasm, etc. She is too enveloped in this to be making such decisions. Preposterous.

[GuppyPal]

Many of the teachers I had didn't even deserve the $40k/year they were getting. Why should they get more than twice that?

[1988rogers]

they dont. its going to back fire big time. aslong as a communist-democratic party union is backing them.

[BandofSorensons]

@GuppyPal The idea is to create an incentive for competent, motivated, knowledgeable college grads, who otherwise would go on to graduate or professional schools, to go in and take on one of our nations most important but poorly staffed and underpaying jobs. As it is, education is a field most people happen onto because they don't know anything else or don't have the grades or skills needed to do anything else or they just like the security and immediate ease of a bureaucratic position.

[prospero811]

Guaranteed base salary of $100,000 a year? Are you flippin' kidding me???? Joke.

[GuppyPal]

No kidding. That's absurd.

[GBS990]

Get a lousy administrator and anyone without tenure becomes fair game. Make pay raises on objective quantifiable merit - how much did the kids in class improve and yes, that would be viable, otherwise, forget it.

[jakob0815]

hey, go team neoliberal education dogmatism!

[terpis]

word choice matters.

'tenure'. Not 'job security' in the context of a system shakeup led by a predatory ladder-scrambling top dog you'd be a fool to trust.

Just saying.

[truthadvocate]

Throw the public school system in the toilet where it belongs. Union bosses have brainwashed teachers into thinking their profession is somehow different. For some reason they're too special to compete like normal people. Union bosses don't care about children. They care about their union dues, power and control. Tenure is an idiotic idea that should be left in the past with flat-earthers. It's time teachers start behaving like adults instead of spoiled children.

[regresseur]

I agree 100%. Great post.

[glennd7962]

Tenure in New York city schools mean employment for life short of committing a felony or gross negligence. The problems go much deeper though. Most teaching evaluation systems have either a satisfactory or unsatisfactory rating and studies have shown that something like 99% of teachers get satisfactory ratings. Can you imagine that in the private sector? I've worked in companies that routinely fire the bottom 5 % - with no cause other than they aren't as good as their peers. It's a frikkin' joke

[DNATS]

Unions in general have no place in a free market. They however exist in a public school system and it's a sad sad thing for our children.

[caltrop69]

It's a sad fact that government employees can't negotiate their own wages and that the management over those employees can't make wage decisions.

Unions are a bandage, necessary, only because of the inefficiency of government.

At the same time, we vote for our representatives, and we want to pay as little as possible in taxes...What's the solution?

[oldhacks]

teachers should get merit pay. not awards.

[ApocalypticMetalHead]

#1 problem with our education system? The Teachers Union.

[joshy666]

Teachers to a large degree are over paid. 90% of the teachers I have met are very good at repeating what the have been told. Yet the have very little knowledge of real world applications or any real world experience.

[BigPurple121]

Maybe they should pay teachers based on how well their students perform.

[ApocalypticMetalHead]

That would discourage teachers to teach at a problematic schools, a pay-per-performance is a bad idea.

[BigPurple121]

Teachers are already discouraged to teach at problematic schools.

What if they received bonuses for improvement. A teacher could make more money at a problem school than an already high-scoring school by improving the classroom.

[Shadizar666]

explain tenure

[purplecharger88]

Tenure commonly refers to life tenure in a job and specifically to a senior academic's contractual right not to have their position terminated without just cause.

Or at least that is the definition. In practice though tenure can be both good and bad because once gained it makes it incredibly hard to get rid of teacher regardless if they have done something wrong or not.