@lildrift559 He probably didn't know how. Several Marvel characters with similar powers didn't understand what they were doing when they tried it on Superman. So, the radiation must be very different from what normally passes for radiation.
@Machdude You asked for proof from the manga which you regard as the "highest canon" but even when i give you that you say its "mumbo jumbo" you completely contradict yourself. Mr.popo taught him how to feel even the slightest disturbance in the atmosphere and that is exactly what he says in the manga. the Androids were not able to give off energy so obviously he wouldn't be able to sense them. argument moot
Superman's best fight in the whole Justice League series. Every other fight just wasn't as good as this one. Superman vs Darkseid in Twilight was decent but it finished before there was a real conclusion.
ok, cap had somewhat of an equalizer in one of superman's weaknesses - red sun radiation - but DAMN, man, he just fought supes and totally hung with him. caps stock went up nine points in this fight
DC has a unique approach to Canon. Their basic presumption is that everything is Canon, there are no retcons... however, each individual author can decide which specific things are Canon in each specific story he tells. This makes arguing 'canon' an exercise in stupidity, because the result is no single unified 'canon'. The animated universe, on the other hand, is internally consistent and does have its own established canon.
@caffeinedelusions So you DBZ fanboys can have a overpowered Goku defeating a depowered Superman, Superman is pathetic in the cartons, just for the sake of creating interesting stories. Comic Superman would rape Goku
@8911145533 Depends on which incarnation of Comic Superman the writer is using. Superboy Prime was described as being as powerful as Silver Age Superman (pretty much Supes at his peak), and he was capable of punching the fourth wall and knocking the sense out of REALITY. Goku against that version of Superman had best turn and run with his tail between his legs, because no amount of strength training, speed, or fireball-style attacks can help you against a reality warper.
People think goku is weaker then superman? Its pretty simple. Superman was implied to have the strength of a hundred men. In dragonball z aa average man has the power level of less then 10. Goku will kill superman with his finger. If you want to get all scientific you could try to understand how a warrior race works and the fact that superman has limited potential. I could argue that at one point gok will fat surpass him but I don't need to seeing as how ss1 is enough to kill superman. overkill
Shifting tectonic plates, Lifting ocean liners, moving the planet = Fat more than 100 men. Note that Aquaman's strength level is over 200 x the strength of adult men and no way is Aquaman stronger than Superman.
And oh yes, in line with any real fan who understands Akira Toriyama, power levels are bullshit.
And all that has no relevance to Goku because let's face it, Goku is a fighter, not a killer and his entire schtick is a fair fight with both of them at their best. Would he ever stoop to cheap tricks and monumental disadvantages to have a shot at Superman? Not really, even if he is weaker, the man has integrity.
Different rules for canon in different worlds. Comics have always been written by rotating people with different interpretations, but are all canon unless specifically overwritten by something in the future. On the other hand, Manga, which is helmed by a SINGLE source, the manga-ka, the ultimate canon is up to him or her to decide. The way you describe it, it would be the equivalent of how Raiga is considered in the anime, a contradiction to the manga.
That is also to note that i am sticking to a single timeline. If you were to consider the anime's feats to be canon, i could just as well drag things back from the Silver age at which point there is no point in even arguing it in context because THAT Superman may as well be a planet killer who can outmuscle a black hole.
@Machdude By the time the Saiyans reached SS2 they had enough power to destroy the solar system with a blast. I'm pretty sure that that is much more than any version of Superman has accomplished.
Now you are exaggerating. The Solar system? I laugh at your petty sense of scale. At SSJ2, they have the ability to detonate a planet core. They don't even have the blast radius in their beams to destroy the planet and you say they are capable of destroying a solar system? You know nothing. At this point you are just making small talk and reiterating your pointless arguments. Case is closed.
Go read DBZ again. The only guy that has succeeded in vaporizing a planet thus far is Buu and he did it to one planet. Even the maximum of his capabilities were not enough to escape Earth's orbital region and you say something about the Solar system? Ever seen a Star chart, noob? The Earth is over 90 million miles away from the sun and that is just the earth. Solar system my ass, you fail science forever.
And you trust bad scanlations because? The scans on the internet are notoriously bad in comparison to even official material. Seriously, if you have to take THAT word for it, you may as well be living in a cave.
@Machdude You can find any DBZ manga on that fight and find the same information. The attack is called solar kamehameha. Or if you don't feel like looking for the manga you can just look at the anime version of that fight.
Doesn't exist. Nowhere in the manga does it say anything about the existence of the attack nor the capability of any attack to do any damage on that level. As I said before, the only fighter that successfully destroyed a planet outright is Buu.
And your last comment pretty much contradicts the entire point of canon, the anime is irrelevant.
@Machdude Go look in any manga that covers that fight and it will say that the energy gathered up was enough to blow up the solar system. The anime has irrelevant filler parts but the fillers never do anything to contradict the main story unless something was too graphic for television. So as long as the anime's main story still followed what happened in the manga it counts and the DBZ anime at that part followed the manga.
And you truly believe that? (Tien and the boys beating the Ginyu force when Goku still had trouble with Vegeta after kai being a blatant example). Contradictions happen on a wide scale and whatever the anime says, it still has no relevance to manga canon.
As far as the manga is concerned, none of the Z fighters save for Buu have succeeded in vaporizing a planet with pure power, try a blast that is a couple billion times that magnitude? Not in a million years.
@Machdude well in vol.18 Piccolo destroys the moon(power level around 1400-1600),vol.26 it is explained that Freeza destroyed the planet Vegeta and upon reaching his final form his power is great enough to destroy Namek.vol 27 Freeza complains about losing his "touch" and that Namek wont blow up for another 5 mins. Just these examples r enough to disprove ur statements, since these are taken from the manga.
@blitz849 if u consider that at such a low level the Moon can be destroyed what would possible at 1000x?10000x? and as for versions of Superman, Prime is the ultimate, tho Captain Atom has over powered three versions of the Man of Steel,Wonderwoman, and several Green lanterns... at the same time. In the end it us that have the Ultimate power, without us these heros would not exist. So be happy so many share ur love and passion but dont insult others, it doesnt matter one way or another
It means quite literally that none of the Z-fighters can destroy a planet without expending half their energy and only when they have reached at least SSJ, and drilling into the core to do so. They have also been unable to do that with their bare fists, which Superman IS capable of doing.
But insults? Natch, i just point out the obvious. If you care not to have this conversation, it would be wise not to start now.
@Machdude Im going to repost what someone else said just in case you didnt read it
DC has a unique approach to Canon. Their basic presumption is that everything is Canon, there are no retcons... however, each individual author can decide which specific things are Canon in each specific story he tells. This makes arguing 'canon' an exercise in stupidity, because the result is no single unified 'canon'. The animated universe, on the other hand, is internally consistent and has its own canon
@Machdude Dude call it filler if you want but Vegeta(at his weakest) destroyed both the planet Arlia and its moon. He wasn't even close to becoming a super saiyan at that time.
@Machdude I showed you manga canon, you disregarded it. Also, in the manga there is nothing to suggest that the moon is hill sized because it only showed a close up of that Boss Rabbit guy on the moon not the entire moon itself.
and the curvature suggests otherwise? As far as the moon is concerned, it is closer to the earth than the goddamn Karin tower when it can be blown to kingdom come by Muten Roshi or have its maximum height be scaled by the Nyoibo.
And considering how untrustworthy the current scanlations are, use the actual manga to do it. Using those translations are just opening the barn doors for mockery.
@Machdude If you look in the background you can clearly see that the moon is in space. What curvature? All it shows is a close up of Boss Rabbit. There is nothing to suggest that it is hill sized. You can look in the official manga comic and it will state that Cell at his current power level gathered up enough energy to destroy the solar system.
Plenty, The depths of the sinkholes in combination with the circumference looks no different than the edge of the hill in the same manga. If it was truly bigger, it would liken to looking at the edge of the ocean in other words, not rounded.
And likening to the manga, there are 2 notable problems. 1: bad translations and sense of scale and 2: we are taking the character's word for it.
In this case, we have only seen a DBZ character blow a planet to kingdom come based on pure power alone in the final arc with Buu. With everyone else, even to the best of their ability, they can't do anything similar. As far as Cell is concerned, he barely has the power to do anything to the earth, much less the solar system. This also considers the fact that Cell is weaker than Fat Buu who's maximum power is only on the planet busting level. Not all too amazing at all.
@Machdude When has Superman's current incarnation busted through a planet? Never. Why do you think that he is that strong? It's because the comics imply it. You have to show me what picture you're looking at because the one I see there are only five sink holes and no definitive way to tell the full circumference of the moon. Although, Dragon Ball was a gag manga in the very beginning so you can't take what it did then too seriously or that would mean that Goku could breath in space.
I don't have to at this point. Nothing the current post-flashpoint Superman has done contradicts his previous superpowers yet. Your argument would only be valid if there was something in the later issues that would contradict his power levels but it just is not the case. Since his limits have not been contradicted, he still has that level of strength. What they HAVE contradicted are his silver age powers which were written out explicitly, but these? Still here and still canon.
On the other hand, Dragon Ball has always scaled their power and shown what each character is capable of before moving to the next. As a result, it is explicitly shown that all of the powers in the universe usually do not matter up until the last. As a result, there is no implication on what the greatest power is, it has already been shown by Buu.
Your logic also requires me to ignore one crucial fact about the reboots in DC, that they keep the characters intact, not the story. have you read Flashpoint? No? Then here is the thing, history is rewritten, but the characters remain the same. While the events of before are removed from canon, it does not change the fact that the characters are always considered that able. All it changes is how they got to that point, not what they are capable of.
@Machdude I wasn't talking about just Flashpoint Superman I meant pre-Flashpoint. When did he destroy a planet? Never. You only think that he can because they implied it. By your logic since he has never actually done it there is no proof that he is as strong as you claim.
Crisis still operates by the same rules. Until his current world has disproven it, he is noted to still have those powers, just not used them yet. The problem with what you said is simply that you treat everything before as inconsequential. It is not. As I said before, history has changed, but it doesn't change the fact that the characters are perfectly capable of doing everything that they previously were noted to be able to do.
@Machdude If history changed then there powers shouldnt be on the same level seeing as they didnt go through the experiences that helped them evolve thier abilities.
@Machdude If history changed then there powers shouldnt be on the same level seeing as they didnt go through the experiences that helped them evolve thier abilities.
@Machdude If history changed then there powers shouldnt be on the same level seeing as they didnt go through the experiences that helped them evolve thier abilities.
@Machdude Interesting discussion. I'll drop in with this. In DBZ, they've stated numerous time that basically anyone over the power of super sayian two can destroy the universe. For example, in the Broly movie, he destroyed an entire planet with one blast without even thinking about it. Even freeza destroyed an entire planet with ease in only his first form and he was beaten by goku as a super sayian one. Denying that anyone stronger than the goku at namek can destroy planets is quite illogical.
By anime "canon". For the manga, the upper limits of the SSJ were all in planet busting levels. Even at the maximum limits of even Buu, his powers were still planet busting in single hits. At his best, Buu can destroy planets in a solar system and maybe even small stars. For all the other DBZ fighters, any attack capable of vaporizing planets is made spending the majority of their energy.
In Japan, what has precedence is always the source which is that which came first. By your logic, all the filler episodes of Naruto would be canon (they are so, rightfully not). What you say only has relevance in DC or Marvel comics where the worlds are considered mutually exclusive to each other. In Japan, canon is EVERYTHING and whoever creates and owns the series is the decider of the ultimate canon.
Most anime series are considered noncanon because they are ADAPTATIONS rather than a direct portrayal. Very few anime series have ever directly taken the manga events at face value. As a result, while they are associated with the manga, the manga still has precedence. Essentially, an anime adaptation is glorified fanfiction. Same characters, highly marketed but still ultimately irrelevant to the plot.
Here is the major problem. Most of the other attacks made by Z-fighters to destroy planets were detonating cores, which means exciting already existing energies to destroy a planet(something Superman was already capable of doing with his heat vision AND without marring the surface of the planet). Even scaled up, most Z-fighters at their best in SSJ 3 are still at a disadvantage against Superman.
@Machdude No, its been stated by the writers themselves that post-crisis Superman's powers were made to be far weaker than pre-crisis Superman's. Buu's limits were not a planet busting he only destroyed single planets at a time because he was looking for Goku and Vegeta to fight with them first. By the time Vegeta had first arrived on Earth he and Goku's strength were strong enough to blow up a planet. By the time they reached SS2 their powers could do so much more.
Buu destroyed 1 planet in canon. He can sense energy (which already invalidates the need to destroy planets one at a time to search for them) as well as teleport which means that the anime went ahead with all that for nothing. Also, Vegeta and Goku's attacks were capable of doing catastrophic damage to the planet's surface, but not much in the way of anything past that. Both of them were marginally stronger than Dodoria who's best attack was little more than fodder on Namek.
@Machdude I don't know how Dodoria got into this but he wasn't trying to destroy Namek while Vegeta actually intended to destroy the Earth with his blast and Goku produced an even more powerful blast to repel it. It was stated that it's impossible to sense energy from the planet of the Kai's unless you are a Kai or you're in other world.
And that explains how Buu found them because? If that was the case, Buu should have been scouring the galaxy, not warping directly onto the planet.
In addition, Vegeta vastly overestimates his own power. While his attack can cause serious damage on a national to continental level, he was still incapable of destroying a planet with a single blast. They may say they can, but even at their best, at the very least you had to be Freeza to do it.
@Machdude ok once again the dbz manga provided the simple outlier for the story while the anime picked up on it and never contradicted the higher canon. Your arguement about canonity is moot seeing as akira toriyama stated himself that the anime is canon.
Yes they did. Did you not hear what has been said over and over again? Since when was Kai able to make the lesser Z-fighters stronger than the Ginyu Force in a month or two when Goku himself only got about as strong as vegeta in a year WITH the kaio ken? Since when was Freeza EVER a match for SSJ Goku (who consistently retained the upper hand in the manga)? How do you explain all the moral and personal contradictions in the anime that contradicted the manga?
it's like you never even read the goddamn manga at all. The Manga IS the definitive source. The anime is an adaptation and thus has no more power over the main storyline as a fanfiction does on the main source material. Sure, you can buy into it, but it doesn't change the fact that as far as Akira Toriyama is concerned, his manga is what matters, not something cooked up by an animation company who knows less about the source material than he does.
@Machdude But yet akira toriyama stated himself that the anime is canon. Hell he even put it in one of the original box sets in an interview that came with a french copy of one of his manga chapters.
Only in and in itself. the ultimate canon has always been reserved for the manga since it is the direct translation of the manga-ka's work. When you put one against the other, there is no question of which has precedence. Unlike Comic books, manga usually does not branch out into other "universes" (With Clamp being a notable exception). In all cases, what is the direct result of the manga-ka is ALWAYS the ultimate canon. Anything else is a deviation and thus NOT the true canon.
@Machdude if the script is written, characters created, concept created, story outlined specified the the mangakas likeing, doesnt contradict higher canon, stated by the creator of the manga/anime that the anime is canon then IT IS CANON. You use other mangas and mangakas ideas of canon on dbz when in reality every author has their own specified canon. It really doesnt matter what you say is or isnt canon when the author stated the anime being the single unified canon.
The only thing stated is that the anime is only canon in and in itself. It is not the manga canon nor does it trump it. What interview or question are you referring to because as far as the creator is concerned, the series may as well have stopped during the Freeza saga where it was supposed to have ended. Effectively however, since the manga is a direct translation of what the creator says, it is still the highest order of canon.
And you really don't understand the anime/manga industry at all. In all these cases, anime adapts manga works but deviates when time management becomes an issue. All manga-kas hold their manga as the definitive interpretation of their story. They can acknowledge the value of external works, but they are never going to place some other interpretation of their work above what they did themselves.
@Machdude Its like you cant fathom that Akira Toriyama who did everything in the anime. It was his story until we get to G.T there your argument would make sense. And he wasnt going to end it at the freeza saga but at the cell saga because he felt as though we finally went full circle and the torch was passed from father to son. And you keep talking about the norm of how canon is thought of now. So its irrelevant. Ultimately it is the manga ka is the one who decides what is canon.
And since when is GT considered anything but an anime extension? As I said before, the anime is an adaptation, and GT is in itself just another filler arc with little to no relevance to the main series. In fact, it has so many points that contradict the main story canon that it may as well be the walk of shame in itself. you just referred to the one point in the series which completely wipes its canon off the map.
@Machdude no you took what i said about G.T way out of context i said your arguement of non canonity would work if you were talking about G.T but not dbz.Understand? And your wrong cell was the definite end because if things ended at the freeza arc there would have been too many unanswered question. The buu saga was the arc made to keep the series going. And you are assuming that all manga ka think alike. many manga ka like im dal yong sometimes like the way the anime goes and consider
Now you are just running out of things to say. This has been going on since the beginning of practically every japanese series to date, what is the direct creation of the manga-ka is always the highest order of canon. You pretty much contradict it by saying an adaptation has power over the original. Seriously, what adaptation has ever superseded its manga as the definitive source?
@Machdude well no one in the us knows about this one but ill say Rebirth Lunatic Takers is an anime adaption that is higher canon than its manga counter part and you are the one running out of things to say seeing as you have to assume things to prove a point.
@Machdude yep yep...manhwa is like a manga in korea... while manga is from japan.. and chinese manga also have manhua which originates in taiwan or rep of china. whoopty doo but one thing never changes they always come out in japanese in the adaptions. there really isnt a differnce except which way you read it and the country of origin. It is still relivant. Sorry forgot how to spell it.
@Machdude and that is well over warp speed.ohhhhh No Silver Age Superman.Pfffft your acting like he is omnipotent. he can be hurt just like everyone else.His greatest feat was sneezing away 5 planets. Shit anyone above the level of ascended super saiyan could do that.Hell super buu broke space and time with just a shout.And if You bring in silver age supes ill bring in G.T goku and its done.
Not really no. If he did it by sneezing, he may as well have broke them by actually breathing on them. Considering silver age superman, he could vibrate himself through walls and attack things on a molecular level, zip through space far quicker than light can travel and juggle planets around like handballs. You'd have to be Guren Lagann to even consider beating him because Silver age Superman may as well have every power in the world.
I almost forgot, you even used Ascended SSJ to say they could sneeze something away. This goes against pretty much everything in the manga AND the anime. Ascended SSJ increases PHYSICAL power, not energy. As a result, it is a trade off from SSJ2 (Improved Strength, Improved durability, NO energy boosts, LOWERED speed). All of this cements one major thing, you don't even know how strong these guys are supposed to be, do you?
@Machdude Ascended SS increases everything but the energy used to transform into that is wasteful, that's why Goku decided to learn the mastered SS form. Only Ultra Ascended SS slows down speed due to the increased muscle mass and that's why Trunks said Vegeta didn't bother to do it.
And yet it does little to improve the situation. Simply making them stronger says nothing about what benefits it should entail. In this case, the form only grants the user extra physical strength. It has no other benefit.
Ascended SS showed no other improvements. If you are talking about energy, Vegeta was already capable of producing energy blasts on that scale as a standard SSJ, it would be no wonder that training for a year and charging that up would produce a final flash like that. However, the next level of it simply makes the effects more prominent. While they were in it, they were almost exclusively using physical attacks because that was all it was good for.
@Machdude You can look anywhere and it will tell you that every SS form increases everything that includes strength, speed, power, and even their senses. The only form that solely powered up muscles was the Ultra Ascended. You also have to remember that Vegeta wasn't going all out against Semi-Perfect Cell. He was toying with him to satisfy his ego. If Vegeta had used the final flash against Semi Cell he would've destroyed him.
In those forms, they also have the additional note that they have an area of strength that they specialize in. Ascended Saiyajin showed literally no advancements in any other category that could not have been done in the other forms, because what it essentially does is increase muscle mass and nothing else. Whatever he did with energy attacks could have been done in standard SSJ and with less strain for that matter. The reason why SS2 was better was because it was well rounded.
@Machdude Your argument is completely irrelevant. Do you understand that a photon particle moves at ftl speeds. The photon particles make up the tip of the lightning bolt. And gives off electromagnetic energy.Fire, or flame, is primarily an extremely hot gas, even hot enough to give off light. It is mainly composed of oxygen, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and water vapor, But isnt made out of light so that argument is again moot. you keep bringing thing up that are irrelevant.
The light particles do. The actual transition of energy? Not so much. It still doesn't make my point any less valid, you are arguing over something that has been proven to be scientifically untrue. The speed of Lightning is much slower than the speed of light. And if you actually knew the science, even a thrown punch is a mass of light particles to our eyes if light reflects off it so I don't see your point.
@Machdude Again you say something completely irrelevant a thrown punch REFLECTS LIGHT DOES NOT PRODUCE IT. WHILE LIGHTNING DOES. Ive actually given you proof and all you do is say it isn't.You really need to study science more because all that you say is really irrelevant and incorrect.
There isn't any difference since the outright effect is the same. You are just pushing yourself off a cliff here because they more you stick to your erroneous assumptions, the more ignorant you come off to be. The production of light does not make it as fast as light. i can fling a flashlight at you but the mere fact that it produces light doesn't mean it is as fast as light.
@Machdude Lightning is an electrical discharge and is bound by the laws of physics. Its speed depends on many factors, including the conductivity of the medium it is travelling through. Careful scientific measurements of many lightning flashes have revealed that the electricity moves at different speeds at different stages of its journey in the lightning flash. Also, its returning upstroke is much faster than its downstroke.
And at its recorded fastest it clocks nowhere near the speed of light. With the transfer of electrons, lightning is bound by the laws of physics. Despite your insistence, all you can argue is that it can be slower than being a small fraction of the speed of light, not faster. Linking it in with your previous argument, lightning and light are two completely different things. The simple reason for this is the simple science behind them.
@Machdude So the light from a flash of lightning travels at the speed of light in air, which is slightly less than the speed of light in a vacuum (e.g. space)
Lightning is a reaction caused by electron transfer which is a small particle, but still a particle that is bound by the laws of physics because they have actual recorded mass. Light particles are not. Even seeing light in the first place is getting hit by it because your eyes need to absorb it first.
@Machdude Just stop spouting your ignorance. Electron transfer has nothing to do with its speeds.Electron transfer isnt a small particle so i dont know where you got that from but its wrong. Particles actually arent bound by the laws of physics.An example is that an electron can be at two places at once. Lightning is made of photon particles and electron plasma. A photon particle is what makes up light meaning ftl speeds. You fail to realize that lightning is made of photon particles.
You really don't seem to get it. The LIGHT from lightning is traveling at the speed of light. The reaction that is causing it however is not. To evade light itself you'd have to not even see it because it would mean the light particles do not even hit your eyes.
Essentially all of the crap you are saying is irrelevant because it doesn't change the fact that lightning is still limited to the speed of its reaction and no matter how fast it gets, it does not exceed the speed of light.
@Machdude You cant seem to want to understand that the stepped leader is photon particles if you dodge that then yes you do move at ftl speeds. Stop trying to prove me wrong when you dont have any evidence. Science isnt on your side. And everything i have said has always been relevant unlike you who has use ridiculous claims to prove your point where as i have used scientific evidence to prove you wrong at every turn.At this point anything you say is just irrelevant.
No you do not. Simply being able to see loightning come in is already being hit by light (or else you would be evading blindly). I don't have to have any evidence at this point because what I said is proven fact. You on the other hand are spinning a yarn on how lightning is as fast as light with what can be best described as "taking your word for it". Anybody with some knowledge of science knows you aren't correct on this one.
@Machdude You never give evidence nor give a compelling and intelligent argument. Your claims are ludicrous and you are nitpicking little thing that i say like the karin thing because you really have nothing else to say.Good day sir.
@Machdude See your the one nitpicking seeing as you only count things that make goku look weaker but when someone gives you proof you say any ridiculous thing to try and disprove it. mr. Popo and tien are examples all over the entire manga there is proof of what im saying im not the one that only wants to hear proof the proves their case. You honestly have nothing intelligent to add so just stop at this point really why continue if you don't know what your talking about.
is that so? Even with a first glance, it is already clear what Goku's abilities are. You just over-exaggerate them to the point where they cease to be true to the manga at all. While you can keep haggling over this and that, it still doesn't change the fact that ay his best, Goku's strengths were already defined. Strong on a terrestrial level, durable enough to take some hits, fast enough to move around the world in seconds and capable of blasting a planet to bits.
However, all of this still is not capable of superseding Superman's current state in his main timeline. Essentially, all you can say at this point is that Goku is strong, but he isn't beating Superman when they are both in their primes.
But the biggest problem i will reiterate again is that you are associating the production of light with being at the speed of light. flame from a flamethrower emits light, but is it as fast as light? No. The sparks from a welding torch emits light but are they moving at the speed of light? NO. The matter used in a particle accelerator emits light, but is it as fast as light? Absolutely not. Why? Because lightning is not light.
@Machdude And you keep using other things that are irrelevant and the i have already disproven your ridiculous counter claims so just stop.everything else you use isnt made of light nor any other type of electromagnetic energy So it is automatically irrelevant.
And yet you are the one continuously spinning things off the rail for us to try to chase you to. At this point, there is no point in arguing because you refuse to admit that Superman has the advantage in a straight fight. I can try to be reasonable on a certain level but you just can't let a subject go even with the answer right in front of you. What are we arguing about? The speed of lightning? It isn't even canon considering that it was not in the manga.
@Machdude the reason akira toriyama didnt directly state power levels was to keep the overall fighting the same. But they never completely discarded it seeing as it was always brought up.Example when goku asked the senzu bean cat to compare his power to cells or when gohan appeared to fight buu.
No, it was gotten rid of because there was no point in using it as an indicator any longer. Not only was it a concept that quickly became ludicrous, but it was also not a direct indicator of how strong they were. Despite being capable of overpowering each other to their own end, their actual growth remained limited to the point where even in SSJ3, they were still not capable of much with their kicks and punches.
The concept of power was also common to the series before power levels were even a factor. it was only introduced during the Saiyajin and namek saga and quickly tossed immediately afterwards. And you call him "bean cat"? His name is Karin. At least get your facts straight.
@Machdude and your unfathomably hypocritical you were the one who started trying to counter my evidence and when you lost now you want to say i keep getting off track dude your not giving evidence but when i do you want to bitch about it. honestly you've not once made a claim that i haven't been able to counter.
Sure, you go off track. It was YOU who ran the entire lightning drivel to grab at a string to "prove" Goku was faster than light (which isn't even canon). You over-exaggerate his feats and try to use them as proof without even consulting the manga at all, mistake his characteristics and can't even remember the names of characters. Buddy, do you even read the goddamn series at all?
Based on the anime that is and even in the anime, it was 2 rotations per second. He was not moving at the speed of light and by that point, it was a level of power that was far into the future. This also considers the fact that Gotenks is not Goku and what applies for Gotenks does not necessarily mean Goku can match it.
@Machdude Actually that wasn't based on the anime but on the manga where you clearly see gotenks making full rotations around the earth and being able to catch up with the light trail left behind which was given off from his aura which produces light as seen when they fought yakon who fed off of light energy. Its like you never read the manga.
The manga's version of the picture does not tell us about how long it took for him to fly around the world. (It may as well have taken him the full 30 minutes for all we know). Ki that is left behind is also generally dubious in nature because ki is not light, and like the entire tirade about lightning, is a form of energy that gives off light. What Yakon sucked on was light based Ki (which was why SSJ form disappeared) and is also the reason why SSJ2 blew him up.
@Machdude Given that Majin Buu was weakened when he absorbed the Kais, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was struggling with Super Buu, & the fact that SSJ3 Goku could wipe out Kid Buu in a single shot, Goku wins. In the Bird Studio license (Japanese) on Chap. 508, Pg. 4, Kibito Kai says "the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption has returned once again to the way it was". That alone puts Kid Buu above Ultra Buu, who is stronger than Super Buu.
Gotenks wasn't actually struggling, he was dragging it out like an idiot. Unlike Goku, Gotenks lacks combat experience but more than made up for it with sheer power. The reason why he lost is because he liked to grandstand, something Goku did not do. On the other hand, Goku mostly fought an even game but even on such a scale, he was still tiring himself out to match up against even the likes of kid Buu.
A fusion is stronger than the greater sum of the 2 fighters who merged. As a result, SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. However, Ultimate Gohan who has already reached SSJ2 was a saiyajin that had all his latent powers broguth out which rendered the SSJ form obsolete to him. Essentially he was stronger without the added detriment of being high on the energy consumption. This however did not make him stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. It only meant he could beat up Super Buu as well.
@Machdude Gohan was stronger than Gotenks, it's even stated in the manga. The strength of the heroes by the time they beat Buu was Vegito>Gohan>Gotenks>Goku>Vegeta. When Gotenks was flying around the world he hadn't even achieved SS2 yet, so no he wasn't anywhere near Goku's strength or speed at the time. He was just a cocky kid. Remember he got the crap beaten out of him by Buu whereas Goku was a bit stronger than Buu.
@Machdude Other rings appeared before the first ones disappeared, this means before the light dissipated from one lap, Gotenks already flew another (6.5)
Iirc he said he flew around the world "a bunch of times, then took a nap"
What happened is Gotenks flew around the world a bunch of times in a second or two, then napped for nearly 29 minutes.
But remember, as Goku said on snake way you can start out flying fast bust as your ki is used up you go much slower.
The trail of Ki that Gotenks left lingered but even considering that, he still was not going anywhere close to the speed of light despite how fast he was going.
The afterworld also makes it so that you last much longer with your ki. But considering Goku, even at the apex of his gains on kai's planet, he would be moving at 215 MP/s, a speed that is still nowhere near fast enough.
@Machdude there are 7.5 rings if you count them though (and the rings are larger than the diameter of the earth), and ssj's are confirmed has emitting light energy
@Machdude It didn't take 30 minutes for him to fly around the world, Gotenks stopped to take a nap without thinking about his time limit and that's why by the time he got there the fusion wore off. You're twisting facts to suit theories.
that was totally sarcastic if you knew the obvious part of that. However, even within the limits of what he did, the manga still does not put a definite number on that speed. Of course Even within the depictions of the manga, he at the very least would Surpass Buu. However, whether or not he reaches light speed is dubious. On the other hand, we know for certain that Goku even in SSJ3 is not faster than the speed of light.
@Machdude Gotenks ss3 = super buu Goku ss3 >super buu and gotenks meaning he is faster stronger etc. that's why it applies to goku. He stopped using kintoun during the saiyan saga WTF. Get your facts straight. He would just play with it that's why he wouldn't just outright use his full speed.
He was still slower than it when it was time to fight Vegeta. He was only faster after he returned from Namek. Also, Gotenks is notable to equal if not surpass Goku (As a fusion and as an SSJ3 fighter). Why? because Gotenks is a fusion.As a fusion, he greatly outclasses the Z-fighters. Vegito on the other hand is stronger than Gotenks. But SSJ3 Gotenks surpasses the power of SSJ3 Goku.
In terms of power comparison, Kid Buu is as strong as SSJ3 Goku with the added bonus that he never tires in combat. This makes him a perfect indicator because it gouges his power and speed. However, the underlying issue is that neither of them are really going to be trading punches with Superman.
@Machdude He dint see the lightning he sensed it. When he was training with mr.popo he became faster than lightning.That is from he manga. Did you even read the story.Just because i forgot a characters name doesnt mean i didnt read the series and i like how you criticized me about not remembering a name yet you failed to remember 1 of the important parts in the manga
When he was training with Mr. Popo, he upped his speed to a point where even Tien had trouble seeing him, but it was still limited by his ability. He was nowhere close to lightning speed. This is to note that he still needed the Kintoun up until Namek. The mere fact that he could not outrun the Kintoun is proof that he is not lightning fast.
@Machdude Tenshinhan fires his Taiyoken (solar flare), which is light used to blind people. Now this attack is light, so it should very well move at the speed of light. Ten fires it off, Goku crosses the ring and puts on Roshi's glasses before the light can reach his eyes and blind him.
The motion itself already telegraphs his attack. This is also further disproven by how unfeasible it was for Goku to get to Roshi's house and back without teleporting.
Even the referral to the past events of Goku is pointless because all that needed to be considered is the end of the BUU saga where Goku is at his strongest. At this point, there is no reason for me to argue with you about the speed of lightning because you just can't take a simple concept. You even use power levels as an indicator of something that matters when Akira Toriyama clearly stated that it was a concept that became obsolete.
@Machdude Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior
And yet their level of strength is not Superman's level of strength. As strong as they are, they are only as strong as they are in overpowering each other. Their level of strength is not even close to what Superman is capable of.
@Machdude it was an interview he did on november 7, 2009 on Daizenshuu power levels. and i didnt say the an ascended ssj could do that i said anyone above could read my comments before posting something and make yourself sound illogical.
But as it is, I should also mention, you are the one who has to assume in order to make something of anything. Where did you get the idea that the anime superseded the manga? Third party sources? The spinoff materials? Chicken scratch? It is laughable. I don't have to say much of anything because it is you who has to say random things just to attempt to prove a nonexistent point. For that argument, there is only one answer, that which is made by the manga-ka is always the first.
@Machdude I get my points from the creators themselves while you made assumptions. And When it has came to proving my point about the physical abilities of goku i gave you proof, examples, and even did the math for you to help you fathom his speed to which you were ignorant to.Point blank ive countered each of you claims and never had to switch to other attributes. I actually recall you being the one doing the things your accusing me of.
No you did not. Every source in the world will tell you that the ultimate canon comes from the manga and it should already go without saying, it is folly to assume anything else. you also are unable to understand that the majority of what Goku was capable of is not what you claim it to be. At all of their max speeds, they are still unable to break the warp speed barrier (they are at least 1/2 way away). Everything else you throw at me is redundant because Superman just surpasses them.
@Machdude From the episode 127. Quicker Than Lightning, Goku is able to dodge a lightning bolt at a Power Level of 260, use earlier reference for proof. the light you see from the lightning obviously travels at the speed of light, which is roughly 670 million mph, or 186,000 miles per second.warp 1 is the speed of light warp 2 is 10x that. warp 3 is 27x that. at the end of dbz his power level was 720,000,000.using simple mathematics you will find out goku can travel 2769230x ftl
Lightning is not light. Lightning is MUCH slower than light. That is because Lightning is ELECTRICITY and it EMITS light. This is the problem with your science, you are assuming that because it produces light, nit is automatically as fast as light. That's like saying most of the attacks made by Freeza is as fast as light. Lightning is not faster than light. However, anime is not canon and as far as Goku is concerned, he has shown no evidence of moving that quickly.
@Machdude Lightning is 1/8th the speed of light but by the time Goku returned to Earth from Namek he could move as fast as the speed of light and by the end of the series it's said that he could move faster than light. All that proves is Buu wasn't flying as fast as he could. Does Superman fly faster than light every single time he flies?
And that was in the anime and is also contradicted by their inability to circle the planet in less than a second (which is still not faster than light). Goku was only fast because of teleporting and in this case, it was not true speed since it did not take into account his maximum speed. Superman on the other hand usually does not overstep his own limitations so as to not cause any harm to civilians (speed is one of those factors). However, is still capable of warp travel at any time.
@Machdude I was just stating that lightning was 1/8th the speed of light I didn't actually try to use it as evidence. Where did you get the idea that they can't circle the planet? He's only SS and he can do this :"manga. animea. net/dragon-ball-chapter-483-page-8. html".(Again I put spaces in the link.) Pan was able to fly across the Earth in a fast amount of time and she is just a toddler who can't turn SS.
At the apex of SSJ3, he was moving as fast as Buu (without factoring in teleportation) and even Buu was unable to meet the requirements of light speed. As I said, simple mathematics. The fact that it took Buu longer than a second to reach Kami's tower from his location is testament to the fact that he cannot move at light speed. Goku can match his speed in SSJ3. But faster than light? Not really.
If Captain Atom was smarter, he should have emitted Kryptonite radiation. That would've subdued Superman a lot quicker than the red sun radiation.
lildrift559 2 days ago
@lildrift559 He probably didn't know how. Several Marvel characters with similar powers didn't understand what they were doing when they tried it on Superman. So, the radiation must be very different from what normally passes for radiation.
1acroyear1 7 hours ago in playlist Superman vs Captain Atom
@1acroyear1 I think you meant DC, not Marvel. But true, nonetheless.
lildrift559 14 minutes ago
nao foi tao dificil pro superman
brendo42745 6 days ago
Superman is so mean here :(
1995MrsBieber 2 weeks ago
You mad bro.LOL
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
You know what, I just don't care anymore. Go on believing whatever you want, this is going on forever.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
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@Machdude You asked for proof from the manga which you regard as the "highest canon" but even when i give you that you say its "mumbo jumbo" you completely contradict yourself. Mr.popo taught him how to feel even the slightest disturbance in the atmosphere and that is exactly what he says in the manga. the Androids were not able to give off energy so obviously he wouldn't be able to sense them. argument moot
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
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elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
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elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
how can you knock out captain atom like that if he's really just energy in a containment suit?
sapier 3 weeks ago
captain atom fights dirty lol
therealAgerbon 3 weeks ago
2:44 mdr les épaules !
MacRubik351 1 month ago
No lives.
icj12324 1 month ago
@icj12324 lol says the guy watching old justice league clips.
KneelBeforeTodd 1 month ago
to bad in the comics superman cant beat caption atom
hecatomb 1 month ago
Superman's best fight in the whole Justice League series. Every other fight just wasn't as good as this one. Superman vs Darkseid in Twilight was decent but it finished before there was a real conclusion.
crimsonlink310 1 month ago
ok, cap had somewhat of an equalizer in one of superman's weaknesses - red sun radiation - but DAMN, man, he just fought supes and totally hung with him. caps stock went up nine points in this fight
bludluva 1 month ago
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2:09 FAIL
CJSangster 1 month ago
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CJSangster 1 month ago
DC has a unique approach to Canon. Their basic presumption is that everything is Canon, there are no retcons... however, each individual author can decide which specific things are Canon in each specific story he tells. This makes arguing 'canon' an exercise in stupidity, because the result is no single unified 'canon'. The animated universe, on the other hand, is internally consistent and does have its own established canon.
caffeinedelusions 1 month ago
@caffeinedelusions I LOVE YOU
elbimio4u 1 month ago
@caffeinedelusions So you DBZ fanboys can have a overpowered Goku defeating a depowered Superman, Superman is pathetic in the cartons, just for the sake of creating interesting stories. Comic Superman would rape Goku
8911145533 1 month ago
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caffeinedelusions 1 month ago
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@8911145533 Depends on which incarnation of Comic Superman the writer is using. Superboy Prime was described as being as powerful as Silver Age Superman (pretty much Supes at his peak), and he was capable of punching the fourth wall and knocking the sense out of REALITY. Goku against that version of Superman had best turn and run with his tail between his legs, because no amount of strength training, speed, or fireball-style attacks can help you against a reality warper.
caffeinedelusions 1 month ago
People think goku is weaker then superman? Its pretty simple. Superman was implied to have the strength of a hundred men. In dragonball z aa average man has the power level of less then 10. Goku will kill superman with his finger. If you want to get all scientific you could try to understand how a warrior race works and the fact that superman has limited potential. I could argue that at one point gok will fat surpass him but I don't need to seeing as how ss1 is enough to kill superman. overkill
elNikobonito 1 month ago
@elNikobonito I think superman was moreeeeeeeeee strength then a hundrend men.
BladeStrikes 1 month ago
Shifting tectonic plates, Lifting ocean liners, moving the planet = Fat more than 100 men. Note that Aquaman's strength level is over 200 x the strength of adult men and no way is Aquaman stronger than Superman.
And oh yes, in line with any real fan who understands Akira Toriyama, power levels are bullshit.
Machdude 1 month ago
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Thumbs up if watching this video made you wish you were kryptonian.
ddd82451 1 month ago
Dude no one but batman can defeat superman
NinjaDavid2 1 month ago
@NinjaDavid2 Lex Luthor does it as well. drop the bullshit, besides any non superpowered humans ever beaing Supes is PIS
8911145533 1 month ago
And all that has no relevance to Goku because let's face it, Goku is a fighter, not a killer and his entire schtick is a fair fight with both of them at their best. Would he ever stoop to cheap tricks and monumental disadvantages to have a shot at Superman? Not really, even if he is weaker, the man has integrity.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude I know that:)
8911145533 1 month ago
Goku will rape Superman, and neither DBZ or the DC universes obey the laws of physics.
tinamoul 1 month ago
In your mind he does. Based on what he shown though, Goku hardly lives up to your image of him.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude so we have to stick to only akira toriyama but yet you can stray for the original creators of superman...yeah that makes sense.
elbimio4u 1 month ago
Different rules for canon in different worlds. Comics have always been written by rotating people with different interpretations, but are all canon unless specifically overwritten by something in the future. On the other hand, Manga, which is helmed by a SINGLE source, the manga-ka, the ultimate canon is up to him or her to decide. The way you describe it, it would be the equivalent of how Raiga is considered in the anime, a contradiction to the manga.
Machdude 1 month ago
That is also to note that i am sticking to a single timeline. If you were to consider the anime's feats to be canon, i could just as well drag things back from the Silver age at which point there is no point in even arguing it in context because THAT Superman may as well be a planet killer who can outmuscle a black hole.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude By the time the Saiyans reached SS2 they had enough power to destroy the solar system with a blast. I'm pretty sure that that is much more than any version of Superman has accomplished.
Luster21 1 month ago
Now you are exaggerating. The Solar system? I laugh at your petty sense of scale. At SSJ2, they have the ability to detonate a planet core. They don't even have the blast radius in their beams to destroy the planet and you say they are capable of destroying a solar system? You know nothing. At this point you are just making small talk and reiterating your pointless arguments. Case is closed.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude Go look at DBZ again. They have the power. I wouldn't have said it if I didn't know for sure.
Luster21 1 month ago
Go read DBZ again. The only guy that has succeeded in vaporizing a planet thus far is Buu and he did it to one planet. Even the maximum of his capabilities were not enough to escape Earth's orbital region and you say something about the Solar system? Ever seen a Star chart, noob? The Earth is over 90 million miles away from the sun and that is just the earth. Solar system my ass, you fail science forever.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude manga. animea. net/ dragon-ball-chapter-416-page-4. html. Tell that to the manga. I put spaces in the link.
Luster21 1 month ago
And you trust bad scanlations because? The scans on the internet are notoriously bad in comparison to even official material. Seriously, if you have to take THAT word for it, you may as well be living in a cave.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude You can find any DBZ manga on that fight and find the same information. The attack is called solar kamehameha. Or if you don't feel like looking for the manga you can just look at the anime version of that fight.
Luster21 1 month ago
Doesn't exist. Nowhere in the manga does it say anything about the existence of the attack nor the capability of any attack to do any damage on that level. As I said before, the only fighter that successfully destroyed a planet outright is Buu.
And your last comment pretty much contradicts the entire point of canon, the anime is irrelevant.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude Go look in any manga that covers that fight and it will say that the energy gathered up was enough to blow up the solar system. The anime has irrelevant filler parts but the fillers never do anything to contradict the main story unless something was too graphic for television. So as long as the anime's main story still followed what happened in the manga it counts and the DBZ anime at that part followed the manga.
Luster21 1 month ago
And you truly believe that? (Tien and the boys beating the Ginyu force when Goku still had trouble with Vegeta after kai being a blatant example). Contradictions happen on a wide scale and whatever the anime says, it still has no relevance to manga canon.
As far as the manga is concerned, none of the Z fighters save for Buu have succeeded in vaporizing a planet with pure power, try a blast that is a couple billion times that magnitude? Not in a million years.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude well in vol.18 Piccolo destroys the moon(power level around 1400-1600),vol.26 it is explained that Freeza destroyed the planet Vegeta and upon reaching his final form his power is great enough to destroy Namek.vol 27 Freeza complains about losing his "touch" and that Namek wont blow up for another 5 mins. Just these examples r enough to disprove ur statements, since these are taken from the manga.
blitz849 1 month ago
@blitz849 if u consider that at such a low level the Moon can be destroyed what would possible at 1000x?10000x? and as for versions of Superman, Prime is the ultimate, tho Captain Atom has over powered three versions of the Man of Steel,Wonderwoman, and several Green lanterns... at the same time. In the end it us that have the Ultimate power, without us these heros would not exist. So be happy so many share ur love and passion but dont insult others, it doesnt matter one way or another
blitz849 1 month ago
It means quite literally that none of the Z-fighters can destroy a planet without expending half their energy and only when they have reached at least SSJ, and drilling into the core to do so. They have also been unable to do that with their bare fists, which Superman IS capable of doing.
But insults? Natch, i just point out the obvious. If you care not to have this conversation, it would be wise not to start now.
Machdude 1 month ago
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@Machdude Im going to repost what someone else said just in case you didnt read it
DC has a unique approach to Canon. Their basic presumption is that everything is Canon, there are no retcons... however, each individual author can decide which specific things are Canon in each specific story he tells. This makes arguing 'canon' an exercise in stupidity, because the result is no single unified 'canon'. The animated universe, on the other hand, is internally consistent and has its own canon
elbimio4u 1 month ago
@Machdude Dude call it filler if you want but Vegeta(at his weakest) destroyed both the planet Arlia and its moon. He wasn't even close to becoming a super saiyan at that time.
yungratchet205 1 month ago
And filler is noncanon. Seriously, do none of you understand manga canon at all?
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude I showed you manga canon, you disregarded it. Also, in the manga there is nothing to suggest that the moon is hill sized because it only showed a close up of that Boss Rabbit guy on the moon not the entire moon itself.
Luster21 1 month ago
and the curvature suggests otherwise? As far as the moon is concerned, it is closer to the earth than the goddamn Karin tower when it can be blown to kingdom come by Muten Roshi or have its maximum height be scaled by the Nyoibo.
And considering how untrustworthy the current scanlations are, use the actual manga to do it. Using those translations are just opening the barn doors for mockery.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude If you look in the background you can clearly see that the moon is in space. What curvature? All it shows is a close up of Boss Rabbit. There is nothing to suggest that it is hill sized. You can look in the official manga comic and it will state that Cell at his current power level gathered up enough energy to destroy the solar system.
Luster21 1 month ago
Plenty, The depths of the sinkholes in combination with the circumference looks no different than the edge of the hill in the same manga. If it was truly bigger, it would liken to looking at the edge of the ocean in other words, not rounded.
And likening to the manga, there are 2 notable problems. 1: bad translations and sense of scale and 2: we are taking the character's word for it.
There is a saying called "show, don't say".
Machdude 1 month ago
In this case, we have only seen a DBZ character blow a planet to kingdom come based on pure power alone in the final arc with Buu. With everyone else, even to the best of their ability, they can't do anything similar. As far as Cell is concerned, he barely has the power to do anything to the earth, much less the solar system. This also considers the fact that Cell is weaker than Fat Buu who's maximum power is only on the planet busting level. Not all too amazing at all.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude When has Superman's current incarnation busted through a planet? Never. Why do you think that he is that strong? It's because the comics imply it. You have to show me what picture you're looking at because the one I see there are only five sink holes and no definitive way to tell the full circumference of the moon. Although, Dragon Ball was a gag manga in the very beginning so you can't take what it did then too seriously or that would mean that Goku could breath in space.
Luster21 1 month ago
I don't have to at this point. Nothing the current post-flashpoint Superman has done contradicts his previous superpowers yet. Your argument would only be valid if there was something in the later issues that would contradict his power levels but it just is not the case. Since his limits have not been contradicted, he still has that level of strength. What they HAVE contradicted are his silver age powers which were written out explicitly, but these? Still here and still canon.
Machdude 1 month ago
On the other hand, Dragon Ball has always scaled their power and shown what each character is capable of before moving to the next. As a result, it is explicitly shown that all of the powers in the universe usually do not matter up until the last. As a result, there is no implication on what the greatest power is, it has already been shown by Buu.
Machdude 1 month ago
Your logic also requires me to ignore one crucial fact about the reboots in DC, that they keep the characters intact, not the story. have you read Flashpoint? No? Then here is the thing, history is rewritten, but the characters remain the same. While the events of before are removed from canon, it does not change the fact that the characters are always considered that able. All it changes is how they got to that point, not what they are capable of.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude I wasn't talking about just Flashpoint Superman I meant pre-Flashpoint. When did he destroy a planet? Never. You only think that he can because they implied it. By your logic since he has never actually done it there is no proof that he is as strong as you claim.
Luster21 1 month ago
Crisis still operates by the same rules. Until his current world has disproven it, he is noted to still have those powers, just not used them yet. The problem with what you said is simply that you treat everything before as inconsequential. It is not. As I said before, history has changed, but it doesn't change the fact that the characters are perfectly capable of doing everything that they previously were noted to be able to do.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude If history changed then there powers shouldnt be on the same level seeing as they didnt go through the experiences that helped them evolve thier abilities.
elbimio4u 1 month ago
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@Machdude If history changed then there powers shouldnt be on the same level seeing as they didnt go through the experiences that helped them evolve thier abilities.
elbimio4u 1 month ago
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@Machdude If history changed then there powers shouldnt be on the same level seeing as they didnt go through the experiences that helped them evolve thier abilities.
elbimio4u 1 month ago
@Machdude Interesting discussion. I'll drop in with this. In DBZ, they've stated numerous time that basically anyone over the power of super sayian two can destroy the universe. For example, in the Broly movie, he destroyed an entire planet with one blast without even thinking about it. Even freeza destroyed an entire planet with ease in only his first form and he was beaten by goku as a super sayian one. Denying that anyone stronger than the goku at namek can destroy planets is quite illogical.
Coldestsoldier 1 month ago
By anime "canon". For the manga, the upper limits of the SSJ were all in planet busting levels. Even at the maximum limits of even Buu, his powers were still planet busting in single hits. At his best, Buu can destroy planets in a solar system and maybe even small stars. For all the other DBZ fighters, any attack capable of vaporizing planets is made spending the majority of their energy.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude once again your only taking into account manga canonity when it does not have precedence over the anime.
elbimio4u 4 weeks ago
In Japan, what has precedence is always the source which is that which came first. By your logic, all the filler episodes of Naruto would be canon (they are so, rightfully not). What you say only has relevance in DC or Marvel comics where the worlds are considered mutually exclusive to each other. In Japan, canon is EVERYTHING and whoever creates and owns the series is the decider of the ultimate canon.
Machdude 4 weeks ago
Most anime series are considered noncanon because they are ADAPTATIONS rather than a direct portrayal. Very few anime series have ever directly taken the manga events at face value. As a result, while they are associated with the manga, the manga still has precedence. Essentially, an anime adaptation is glorified fanfiction. Same characters, highly marketed but still ultimately irrelevant to the plot.
Machdude 4 weeks ago
Here is the major problem. Most of the other attacks made by Z-fighters to destroy planets were detonating cores, which means exciting already existing energies to destroy a planet(something Superman was already capable of doing with his heat vision AND without marring the surface of the planet). Even scaled up, most Z-fighters at their best in SSJ 3 are still at a disadvantage against Superman.
Machdude 1 month ago
@Machdude No, its been stated by the writers themselves that post-crisis Superman's powers were made to be far weaker than pre-crisis Superman's. Buu's limits were not a planet busting he only destroyed single planets at a time because he was looking for Goku and Vegeta to fight with them first. By the time Vegeta had first arrived on Earth he and Goku's strength were strong enough to blow up a planet. By the time they reached SS2 their powers could do so much more.
Luster21 4 weeks ago
Buu destroyed 1 planet in canon. He can sense energy (which already invalidates the need to destroy planets one at a time to search for them) as well as teleport which means that the anime went ahead with all that for nothing. Also, Vegeta and Goku's attacks were capable of doing catastrophic damage to the planet's surface, but not much in the way of anything past that. Both of them were marginally stronger than Dodoria who's best attack was little more than fodder on Namek.
Machdude 4 weeks ago
@Machdude I don't know how Dodoria got into this but he wasn't trying to destroy Namek while Vegeta actually intended to destroy the Earth with his blast and Goku produced an even more powerful blast to repel it. It was stated that it's impossible to sense energy from the planet of the Kai's unless you are a Kai or you're in other world.
Luster21 4 weeks ago
And that explains how Buu found them because? If that was the case, Buu should have been scouring the galaxy, not warping directly onto the planet.
In addition, Vegeta vastly overestimates his own power. While his attack can cause serious damage on a national to continental level, he was still incapable of destroying a planet with a single blast. They may say they can, but even at their best, at the very least you had to be Freeza to do it.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude ok once again the dbz manga provided the simple outlier for the story while the anime picked up on it and never contradicted the higher canon. Your arguement about canonity is moot seeing as akira toriyama stated himself that the anime is canon.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
Yes they did. Did you not hear what has been said over and over again? Since when was Kai able to make the lesser Z-fighters stronger than the Ginyu Force in a month or two when Goku himself only got about as strong as vegeta in a year WITH the kaio ken? Since when was Freeza EVER a match for SSJ Goku (who consistently retained the upper hand in the manga)? How do you explain all the moral and personal contradictions in the anime that contradicted the manga?
Machdude 3 weeks ago
it's like you never even read the goddamn manga at all. The Manga IS the definitive source. The anime is an adaptation and thus has no more power over the main storyline as a fanfiction does on the main source material. Sure, you can buy into it, but it doesn't change the fact that as far as Akira Toriyama is concerned, his manga is what matters, not something cooked up by an animation company who knows less about the source material than he does.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude But yet akira toriyama stated himself that the anime is canon. Hell he even put it in one of the original box sets in an interview that came with a french copy of one of his manga chapters.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
Only in and in itself. the ultimate canon has always been reserved for the manga since it is the direct translation of the manga-ka's work. When you put one against the other, there is no question of which has precedence. Unlike Comic books, manga usually does not branch out into other "universes" (With Clamp being a notable exception). In all cases, what is the direct result of the manga-ka is ALWAYS the ultimate canon. Anything else is a deviation and thus NOT the true canon.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude if the script is written, characters created, concept created, story outlined specified the the mangakas likeing, doesnt contradict higher canon, stated by the creator of the manga/anime that the anime is canon then IT IS CANON. You use other mangas and mangakas ideas of canon on dbz when in reality every author has their own specified canon. It really doesnt matter what you say is or isnt canon when the author stated the anime being the single unified canon.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
The only thing stated is that the anime is only canon in and in itself. It is not the manga canon nor does it trump it. What interview or question are you referring to because as far as the creator is concerned, the series may as well have stopped during the Freeza saga where it was supposed to have ended. Effectively however, since the manga is a direct translation of what the creator says, it is still the highest order of canon.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
And you really don't understand the anime/manga industry at all. In all these cases, anime adapts manga works but deviates when time management becomes an issue. All manga-kas hold their manga as the definitive interpretation of their story. They can acknowledge the value of external works, but they are never going to place some other interpretation of their work above what they did themselves.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude Its like you cant fathom that Akira Toriyama who did everything in the anime. It was his story until we get to G.T there your argument would make sense. And he wasnt going to end it at the freeza saga but at the cell saga because he felt as though we finally went full circle and the torch was passed from father to son. And you keep talking about the norm of how canon is thought of now. So its irrelevant. Ultimately it is the manga ka is the one who decides what is canon.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
And since when is GT considered anything but an anime extension? As I said before, the anime is an adaptation, and GT is in itself just another filler arc with little to no relevance to the main series. In fact, it has so many points that contradict the main story canon that it may as well be the walk of shame in itself. you just referred to the one point in the series which completely wipes its canon off the map.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude no you took what i said about G.T way out of context i said your arguement of non canonity would work if you were talking about G.T but not dbz.Understand? And your wrong cell was the definite end because if things ended at the freeza arc there would have been too many unanswered question. The buu saga was the arc made to keep the series going. And you are assuming that all manga ka think alike. many manga ka like im dal yong sometimes like the way the anime goes and consider
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
@Machdude the anime as the higher canon. You cant just use modern manga ka mentality as a claim when akira toriyama made dbz in 1985.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
Now you are just running out of things to say. This has been going on since the beginning of practically every japanese series to date, what is the direct creation of the manga-ka is always the highest order of canon. You pretty much contradict it by saying an adaptation has power over the original. Seriously, what adaptation has ever superseded its manga as the definitive source?
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude well no one in the us knows about this one but ill say Rebirth Lunatic Takers is an anime adaption that is higher canon than its manga counter part and you are the one running out of things to say seeing as you have to assume things to prove a point.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
That's Korean. -_- (a manhwa). You really are randomly jabbing at me at this point, kekekeke.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude yep yep...manhwa is like a manga in korea... while manga is from japan.. and chinese manga also have manhua which originates in taiwan or rep of china. whoopty doo but one thing never changes they always come out in japanese in the adaptions. there really isnt a differnce except which way you read it and the country of origin. It is still relivant. Sorry forgot how to spell it.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
And where did you get this information from? As far as the internet is concerned, an anime/animation/live action doesn't exist.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude and that is well over warp speed.ohhhhh No Silver Age Superman.Pfffft your acting like he is omnipotent. he can be hurt just like everyone else.His greatest feat was sneezing away 5 planets. Shit anyone above the level of ascended super saiyan could do that.Hell super buu broke space and time with just a shout.And if You bring in silver age supes ill bring in G.T goku and its done.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
Not really no. If he did it by sneezing, he may as well have broke them by actually breathing on them. Considering silver age superman, he could vibrate himself through walls and attack things on a molecular level, zip through space far quicker than light can travel and juggle planets around like handballs. You'd have to be Guren Lagann to even consider beating him because Silver age Superman may as well have every power in the world.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
I almost forgot, you even used Ascended SSJ to say they could sneeze something away. This goes against pretty much everything in the manga AND the anime. Ascended SSJ increases PHYSICAL power, not energy. As a result, it is a trade off from SSJ2 (Improved Strength, Improved durability, NO energy boosts, LOWERED speed). All of this cements one major thing, you don't even know how strong these guys are supposed to be, do you?
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude Ascended SS increases everything but the energy used to transform into that is wasteful, that's why Goku decided to learn the mastered SS form. Only Ultra Ascended SS slows down speed due to the increased muscle mass and that's why Trunks said Vegeta didn't bother to do it.
Luster21 3 weeks ago
And yet it does little to improve the situation. Simply making them stronger says nothing about what benefits it should entail. In this case, the form only grants the user extra physical strength. It has no other benefit.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude Only Ultra Ascended SS solely increases brute strength but every other form of SS grants the user increased everything.
Luster21 3 weeks ago
Ascended SS showed no other improvements. If you are talking about energy, Vegeta was already capable of producing energy blasts on that scale as a standard SSJ, it would be no wonder that training for a year and charging that up would produce a final flash like that. However, the next level of it simply makes the effects more prominent. While they were in it, they were almost exclusively using physical attacks because that was all it was good for.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude You can look anywhere and it will tell you that every SS form increases everything that includes strength, speed, power, and even their senses. The only form that solely powered up muscles was the Ultra Ascended. You also have to remember that Vegeta wasn't going all out against Semi-Perfect Cell. He was toying with him to satisfy his ego. If Vegeta had used the final flash against Semi Cell he would've destroyed him.
Luster21 3 weeks ago
In those forms, they also have the additional note that they have an area of strength that they specialize in. Ascended Saiyajin showed literally no advancements in any other category that could not have been done in the other forms, because what it essentially does is increase muscle mass and nothing else. Whatever he did with energy attacks could have been done in standard SSJ and with less strain for that matter. The reason why SS2 was better was because it was well rounded.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude Your argument is completely irrelevant. Do you understand that a photon particle moves at ftl speeds. The photon particles make up the tip of the lightning bolt. And gives off electromagnetic energy.Fire, or flame, is primarily an extremely hot gas, even hot enough to give off light. It is mainly composed of oxygen, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and water vapor, But isnt made out of light so that argument is again moot. you keep bringing thing up that are irrelevant.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
The light particles do. The actual transition of energy? Not so much. It still doesn't make my point any less valid, you are arguing over something that has been proven to be scientifically untrue. The speed of Lightning is much slower than the speed of light. And if you actually knew the science, even a thrown punch is a mass of light particles to our eyes if light reflects off it so I don't see your point.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude Again you say something completely irrelevant a thrown punch REFLECTS LIGHT DOES NOT PRODUCE IT. WHILE LIGHTNING DOES. Ive actually given you proof and all you do is say it isn't.You really need to study science more because all that you say is really irrelevant and incorrect.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
There isn't any difference since the outright effect is the same. You are just pushing yourself off a cliff here because they more you stick to your erroneous assumptions, the more ignorant you come off to be. The production of light does not make it as fast as light. i can fling a flashlight at you but the mere fact that it produces light doesn't mean it is as fast as light.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude Lightning is an electrical discharge and is bound by the laws of physics. Its speed depends on many factors, including the conductivity of the medium it is travelling through. Careful scientific measurements of many lightning flashes have revealed that the electricity moves at different speeds at different stages of its journey in the lightning flash. Also, its returning upstroke is much faster than its downstroke.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
And at its recorded fastest it clocks nowhere near the speed of light. With the transfer of electrons, lightning is bound by the laws of physics. Despite your insistence, all you can argue is that it can be slower than being a small fraction of the speed of light, not faster. Linking it in with your previous argument, lightning and light are two completely different things. The simple reason for this is the simple science behind them.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude So the light from a flash of lightning travels at the speed of light in air, which is slightly less than the speed of light in a vacuum (e.g. space)
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
Lightning is a reaction caused by electron transfer which is a small particle, but still a particle that is bound by the laws of physics because they have actual recorded mass. Light particles are not. Even seeing light in the first place is getting hit by it because your eyes need to absorb it first.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude Just stop spouting your ignorance. Electron transfer has nothing to do with its speeds.Electron transfer isnt a small particle so i dont know where you got that from but its wrong. Particles actually arent bound by the laws of physics.An example is that an electron can be at two places at once. Lightning is made of photon particles and electron plasma. A photon particle is what makes up light meaning ftl speeds. You fail to realize that lightning is made of photon particles.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
You really don't seem to get it. The LIGHT from lightning is traveling at the speed of light. The reaction that is causing it however is not. To evade light itself you'd have to not even see it because it would mean the light particles do not even hit your eyes.
Essentially all of the crap you are saying is irrelevant because it doesn't change the fact that lightning is still limited to the speed of its reaction and no matter how fast it gets, it does not exceed the speed of light.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude You cant seem to want to understand that the stepped leader is photon particles if you dodge that then yes you do move at ftl speeds. Stop trying to prove me wrong when you dont have any evidence. Science isnt on your side. And everything i have said has always been relevant unlike you who has use ridiculous claims to prove your point where as i have used scientific evidence to prove you wrong at every turn.At this point anything you say is just irrelevant.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
No you do not. Simply being able to see loightning come in is already being hit by light (or else you would be evading blindly). I don't have to have any evidence at this point because what I said is proven fact. You on the other hand are spinning a yarn on how lightning is as fast as light with what can be best described as "taking your word for it". Anybody with some knowledge of science knows you aren't correct on this one.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude You never give evidence nor give a compelling and intelligent argument. Your claims are ludicrous and you are nitpicking little thing that i say like the karin thing because you really have nothing else to say.Good day sir.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
Now you are bringing up Mr. Popo and Tien, who is nitpicking again? Only the final stats are relevant, not this mumbo jumbo.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude See your the one nitpicking seeing as you only count things that make goku look weaker but when someone gives you proof you say any ridiculous thing to try and disprove it. mr. Popo and tien are examples all over the entire manga there is proof of what im saying im not the one that only wants to hear proof the proves their case. You honestly have nothing intelligent to add so just stop at this point really why continue if you don't know what your talking about.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
is that so? Even with a first glance, it is already clear what Goku's abilities are. You just over-exaggerate them to the point where they cease to be true to the manga at all. While you can keep haggling over this and that, it still doesn't change the fact that ay his best, Goku's strengths were already defined. Strong on a terrestrial level, durable enough to take some hits, fast enough to move around the world in seconds and capable of blasting a planet to bits.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
However, all of this still is not capable of superseding Superman's current state in his main timeline. Essentially, all you can say at this point is that Goku is strong, but he isn't beating Superman when they are both in their primes.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
But the biggest problem i will reiterate again is that you are associating the production of light with being at the speed of light. flame from a flamethrower emits light, but is it as fast as light? No. The sparks from a welding torch emits light but are they moving at the speed of light? NO. The matter used in a particle accelerator emits light, but is it as fast as light? Absolutely not. Why? Because lightning is not light.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude And you keep using other things that are irrelevant and the i have already disproven your ridiculous counter claims so just stop.everything else you use isnt made of light nor any other type of electromagnetic energy So it is automatically irrelevant.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
And yet you are the one continuously spinning things off the rail for us to try to chase you to. At this point, there is no point in arguing because you refuse to admit that Superman has the advantage in a straight fight. I can try to be reasonable on a certain level but you just can't let a subject go even with the answer right in front of you. What are we arguing about? The speed of lightning? It isn't even canon considering that it was not in the manga.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude the reason akira toriyama didnt directly state power levels was to keep the overall fighting the same. But they never completely discarded it seeing as it was always brought up.Example when goku asked the senzu bean cat to compare his power to cells or when gohan appeared to fight buu.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
No, it was gotten rid of because there was no point in using it as an indicator any longer. Not only was it a concept that quickly became ludicrous, but it was also not a direct indicator of how strong they were. Despite being capable of overpowering each other to their own end, their actual growth remained limited to the point where even in SSJ3, they were still not capable of much with their kicks and punches.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
The concept of power was also common to the series before power levels were even a factor. it was only introduced during the Saiyajin and namek saga and quickly tossed immediately afterwards. And you call him "bean cat"? His name is Karin. At least get your facts straight.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude and your unfathomably hypocritical you were the one who started trying to counter my evidence and when you lost now you want to say i keep getting off track dude your not giving evidence but when i do you want to bitch about it. honestly you've not once made a claim that i haven't been able to counter.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
Sure, you go off track. It was YOU who ran the entire lightning drivel to grab at a string to "prove" Goku was faster than light (which isn't even canon). You over-exaggerate his feats and try to use them as proof without even consulting the manga at all, mistake his characteristics and can't even remember the names of characters. Buddy, do you even read the goddamn series at all?
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude How fast does light orbit across the earth.
Appr. answer = 7.4 times/sec
equation used: time = distance/rate..... x seconds = (circumference of earth)/(speed of light).....
x = (4.00727E7 meters)/(3.00E8 meters per second)
x = .1335 seconds
.1335 seconds is how long it takes light to orbit earth once.
1/.1335 = 7.4
light travels around the earth ~7.4 times in one second.
Gotenks traveled around the earth 5 times in 1-2 seconds. Yeah they can move at light speeds.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
Based on the anime that is and even in the anime, it was 2 rotations per second. He was not moving at the speed of light and by that point, it was a level of power that was far into the future. This also considers the fact that Gotenks is not Goku and what applies for Gotenks does not necessarily mean Goku can match it.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude Actually that wasn't based on the anime but on the manga where you clearly see gotenks making full rotations around the earth and being able to catch up with the light trail left behind which was given off from his aura which produces light as seen when they fought yakon who fed off of light energy. Its like you never read the manga.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
The manga's version of the picture does not tell us about how long it took for him to fly around the world. (It may as well have taken him the full 30 minutes for all we know). Ki that is left behind is also generally dubious in nature because ki is not light, and like the entire tirade about lightning, is a form of energy that gives off light. What Yakon sucked on was light based Ki (which was why SSJ form disappeared) and is also the reason why SSJ2 blew him up.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude Given that Majin Buu was weakened when he absorbed the Kais, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was struggling with Super Buu, & the fact that SSJ3 Goku could wipe out Kid Buu in a single shot, Goku wins. In the Bird Studio license (Japanese) on Chap. 508, Pg. 4, Kibito Kai says "the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption has returned once again to the way it was". That alone puts Kid Buu above Ultra Buu, who is stronger than Super Buu.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
Gotenks wasn't actually struggling, he was dragging it out like an idiot. Unlike Goku, Gotenks lacks combat experience but more than made up for it with sheer power. The reason why he lost is because he liked to grandstand, something Goku did not do. On the other hand, Goku mostly fought an even game but even on such a scale, he was still tiring himself out to match up against even the likes of kid Buu.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude A fusion is not always stronger than a normal fighter. Ultimate Gohan(A normal fighter)>SSJ3 Gotenks(A fusion)
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
A fusion is stronger than the greater sum of the 2 fighters who merged. As a result, SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. However, Ultimate Gohan who has already reached SSJ2 was a saiyajin that had all his latent powers broguth out which rendered the SSJ form obsolete to him. Essentially he was stronger without the added detriment of being high on the energy consumption. This however did not make him stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. It only meant he could beat up Super Buu as well.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude Gohan was stronger than Gotenks, it's even stated in the manga. The strength of the heroes by the time they beat Buu was Vegito>Gohan>Gotenks>Goku>Vegeta. When Gotenks was flying around the world he hadn't even achieved SS2 yet, so no he wasn't anywhere near Goku's strength or speed at the time. He was just a cocky kid. Remember he got the crap beaten out of him by Buu whereas Goku was a bit stronger than Buu.
Luster21 2 weeks ago
And this is pretty much common knowledge at this point. And the relevance is?
Machdude 2 weeks ago
Comment removed
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
@Machdude Other rings appeared before the first ones disappeared, this means before the light dissipated from one lap, Gotenks already flew another (6.5)
Iirc he said he flew around the world "a bunch of times, then took a nap"
What happened is Gotenks flew around the world a bunch of times in a second or two, then napped for nearly 29 minutes.
But remember, as Goku said on snake way you can start out flying fast bust as your ki is used up you go much slower.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
The trail of Ki that Gotenks left lingered but even considering that, he still was not going anywhere close to the speed of light despite how fast he was going.
The afterworld also makes it so that you last much longer with your ki. But considering Goku, even at the apex of his gains on kai's planet, he would be moving at 215 MP/s, a speed that is still nowhere near fast enough.
The Trail of Ki that Giot
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude there are 7.5 rings if you count them though (and the rings are larger than the diameter of the earth), and ssj's are confirmed has emitting light energy
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
@Machdude It didn't take 30 minutes for him to fly around the world, Gotenks stopped to take a nap without thinking about his time limit and that's why by the time he got there the fusion wore off. You're twisting facts to suit theories.
Luster21 2 weeks ago
that was totally sarcastic if you knew the obvious part of that. However, even within the limits of what he did, the manga still does not put a definite number on that speed. Of course Even within the depictions of the manga, he at the very least would Surpass Buu. However, whether or not he reaches light speed is dubious. On the other hand, we know for certain that Goku even in SSJ3 is not faster than the speed of light.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude Akira Toriyama has stated himself that Goku is faster than the speed of light. So exactly how have you figured that he's not?
Luster21 2 weeks ago
@Machdude Gotenks ss3 = super buu Goku ss3 >super buu and gotenks meaning he is faster stronger etc. that's why it applies to goku. He stopped using kintoun during the saiyan saga WTF. Get your facts straight. He would just play with it that's why he wouldn't just outright use his full speed.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
He was still slower than it when it was time to fight Vegeta. He was only faster after he returned from Namek. Also, Gotenks is notable to equal if not surpass Goku (As a fusion and as an SSJ3 fighter). Why? because Gotenks is a fusion.As a fusion, he greatly outclasses the Z-fighters. Vegito on the other hand is stronger than Gotenks. But SSJ3 Gotenks surpasses the power of SSJ3 Goku.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
In terms of power comparison, Kid Buu is as strong as SSJ3 Goku with the added bonus that he never tires in combat. This makes him a perfect indicator because it gouges his power and speed. However, the underlying issue is that neither of them are really going to be trading punches with Superman.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude He dint see the lightning he sensed it. When he was training with mr.popo he became faster than lightning.That is from he manga. Did you even read the story.Just because i forgot a characters name doesnt mean i didnt read the series and i like how you criticized me about not remembering a name yet you failed to remember 1 of the important parts in the manga
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
When he was training with Mr. Popo, he upped his speed to a point where even Tien had trouble seeing him, but it was still limited by his ability. He was nowhere close to lightning speed. This is to note that he still needed the Kintoun up until Namek. The mere fact that he could not outrun the Kintoun is proof that he is not lightning fast.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude And you claim it wasn't canon when it was in the manga.LOL epic fail.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
Page number. What lightning bolt.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude Tenshinhan fires his Taiyoken (solar flare), which is light used to blind people. Now this attack is light, so it should very well move at the speed of light. Ten fires it off, Goku crosses the ring and puts on Roshi's glasses before the light can reach his eyes and blind him.
elbimio4u 2 weeks ago
The motion itself already telegraphs his attack. This is also further disproven by how unfeasible it was for Goku to get to Roshi's house and back without teleporting.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
Even the referral to the past events of Goku is pointless because all that needed to be considered is the end of the BUU saga where Goku is at his strongest. At this point, there is no reason for me to argue with you about the speed of lightning because you just can't take a simple concept. You even use power levels as an indicator of something that matters when Akira Toriyama clearly stated that it was a concept that became obsolete.
Machdude 2 weeks ago
@Machdude Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
And yet their level of strength is not Superman's level of strength. As strong as they are, they are only as strong as they are in overpowering each other. Their level of strength is not even close to what Superman is capable of.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude it was an interview he did on november 7, 2009 on Daizenshuu power levels. and i didnt say the an ascended ssj could do that i said anyone above could read my comments before posting something and make yourself sound illogical.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
You're going to have to link me on this one, cuz digging the article is hard enough as it is.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
But as it is, I should also mention, you are the one who has to assume in order to make something of anything. Where did you get the idea that the anime superseded the manga? Third party sources? The spinoff materials? Chicken scratch? It is laughable. I don't have to say much of anything because it is you who has to say random things just to attempt to prove a nonexistent point. For that argument, there is only one answer, that which is made by the manga-ka is always the first.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude I get my points from the creators themselves while you made assumptions. And When it has came to proving my point about the physical abilities of goku i gave you proof, examples, and even did the math for you to help you fathom his speed to which you were ignorant to.Point blank ive countered each of you claims and never had to switch to other attributes. I actually recall you being the one doing the things your accusing me of.
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
No you did not. Every source in the world will tell you that the ultimate canon comes from the manga and it should already go without saying, it is folly to assume anything else. you also are unable to understand that the majority of what Goku was capable of is not what you claim it to be. At all of their max speeds, they are still unable to break the warp speed barrier (they are at least 1/2 way away). Everything else you throw at me is redundant because Superman just surpasses them.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude From the episode 127. Quicker Than Lightning, Goku is able to dodge a lightning bolt at a Power Level of 260, use earlier reference for proof. the light you see from the lightning obviously travels at the speed of light, which is roughly 670 million mph, or 186,000 miles per second.warp 1 is the speed of light warp 2 is 10x that. warp 3 is 27x that. at the end of dbz his power level was 720,000,000.using simple mathematics you will find out goku can travel 2769230x ftl
elbimio4u 3 weeks ago
Lightning is not light. Lightning is MUCH slower than light. That is because Lightning is ELECTRICITY and it EMITS light. This is the problem with your science, you are assuming that because it produces light, nit is automatically as fast as light. That's like saying most of the attacks made by Freeza is as fast as light. Lightning is not faster than light. However, anime is not canon and as far as Goku is concerned, he has shown no evidence of moving that quickly.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude Lightning is 1/8th the speed of light but by the time Goku returned to Earth from Namek he could move as fast as the speed of light and by the end of the series it's said that he could move faster than light. All that proves is Buu wasn't flying as fast as he could. Does Superman fly faster than light every single time he flies?
Luster21 3 weeks ago
And that was in the anime and is also contradicted by their inability to circle the planet in less than a second (which is still not faster than light). Goku was only fast because of teleporting and in this case, it was not true speed since it did not take into account his maximum speed. Superman on the other hand usually does not overstep his own limitations so as to not cause any harm to civilians (speed is one of those factors). However, is still capable of warp travel at any time.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
@Machdude I was just stating that lightning was 1/8th the speed of light I didn't actually try to use it as evidence. Where did you get the idea that they can't circle the planet? He's only SS and he can do this :"manga. animea. net/dragon-ball-chapter-483-page-8. html".(Again I put spaces in the link.) Pan was able to fly across the Earth in a fast amount of time and she is just a toddler who can't turn SS.
Luster21 3 weeks ago
At the apex of SSJ3, he was moving as fast as Buu (without factoring in teleportation) and even Buu was unable to meet the requirements of light speed. As I said, simple mathematics. The fact that it took Buu longer than a second to reach Kami's tower from his location is testament to the fact that he cannot move at light speed. Goku can match his speed in SSJ3. But faster than light? Not really.
Machdude 3 weeks ago
Your dependence on power levels is also rather cute when Akira Toriyama himself stated that Power levels w