After reading some very good comments posted here, I have a question. For many reasons, Bruckner is a sphinx. Yes, Celi had a real symbiosis with this composer. But, when I'm searching for "Bruckner truth" I find it MORE in Jochum, in Kabasta, in Bohm's Fourth, in Furtwängler wartime Fitth, in Giulini's Eight... Any opinion? I'm totally mad?
An orchestra player for 50 years, and an observer (I have a number of VHS tabes of Celebidache), I have come to the opposite opinion of many here: that Celebidache drains every ounce of spontaneity from a performance, especially after watching him in rehearsal. I could only help thinking of what Furtwangler said in the 30's, lamenting that too much rehearsal time was allotted to a final performance, robbing it freshness and vibrancy.
@muslit Speaking from a similar point of view (though with far less experience) I have to agree with you. It's indisputable that Celi was a great musician, but his aloof and "strangling" approach, and his fairly frequent disregard for the score made for a lot of gloomy and uncomfortable results.
One thing is certain: he was good at creating a personal mythology!
Varese52 I agree with you about the music,but unfortunately Beethoven never really met Mozart who died in 1791,and Beethoven arrived in Vienna 1794, nevertheless LVB really caught Mozart's spirit from Haydn anyway for who he said "You can't learn a thing from Haydn".He meant that he understood him, the old Beethoven would never say a thing like that, cheers!
I assure you that I do not trade in "music 101 condescension". I just dislike the hyperbole of calling a great composer who writes an homage to another great composer, in this case, one of his teachers, as thievery. As for Beethoven being a revolutionary, that is music 101 hype. Beethoven was taught by both Mozart and Haydn and learned a good deal from both. Composers of great talent often refer to their forbears and this is hardly thievery. It is an acknowledgment of influence and respect.
Your comment about Beethoven's music being revolutionary is more of an overview based upon acquaintance with examples of his music from his entire career. Early Beethoven, the First Symphony, the first piano concerto and quartets all are clearly influenced by Haydn and Mozart, two composers he respected highly. I never denied that Mahler was influenced by Bruckner, but his Brucknerian heritage ends with his 3rd Symphony. As well, Mahler's orchestration never sounds anything like Bruckner.
No it isn't -you're dead wrong. I know all of early Beethoven and he came to his style as a revolution. He himself knew this. Of course he respected them. But it is the case of anxiety of influence --the threatened soul that produces the most fervent art. I think that's Beethoven's case. Spare me the Music 101 condescension.
It is patently ridiculous to claim that Mahler was a thief, any more than it is possible to call Beethoven a thief for being influenced by Mozart and Haydn, or Wagner a thief for "borrowing" something from Berlioz's Romeo and Juliet for his Tristan prelude. No composer is 100% original. They are all influenced and affected by those composers who came before them and who they admired. The whole concept of "originality" is a myth. Music is a language and there are only 12 notes in Western music.
not really. Beethoven was far more revolutionary in his time compared to Mozart just for the fact that he did not want to compose like Mozart or Hayden but Mahler is far more similar in language to Bruckner and even the tragic Hans Rott.
I do agree with you. My statement was a silly exaggeration. But originality is not a myth when understood that there is an unique personality behind the arrangement of those 12 notes. I'm sure you agree. How else do we tell Bruckner from anyone.
Doesn't this passage just tear you apart? Astounding. Mahler was a thief. He stole from Hans Rott and got all his great ideas from Bruckner - but he has none of Bruckner's mystery.
i havent heard the name hans rott used for some time. in fact never !! not many know of him . I was walking into vergin in nyc about 3 years ago. walked up to the classical floor and they were playing hans rott. yes it did sound like mahler in fact i thought they were playing Mahler!!. The man died very young age 26 or so .
they smile during reahrsals, they speak with toghether, treating the director like a stupid. This is BPO now. Listen this orchestra now, with Rattle... my god... it's the END
@liebe0zur0musik In the hands of a genius even 5 year olds will make a decent take on smth lighter of course, but that's a character of great knowledge and sensitivity, so compelling..
The Munich Philharmonic is one of the best in the world! Just saw them a week ago -Dec. 2007 and can only say - they are great! A must see! One of the best contra bass sections in the world, as well - amazing! When they play Bruckner or Bernstein, I cry - competely moving
Too bad this video stops where Bruckner's most breathtaking writing starts, the long sequence which ends on the piling up of all tones from a C sharp scale, and obviously the calm ending bars with the most conclusive force Bruckner ever wrote. Celibidache had an intimate relationship with Bruckner, a century may have separated their lives but I can hardly imagine two artists working this closely.
真是一個經典的錄影, 他指揮布氏的第九比gunter wand 還要精彩
tflee38 1 year ago
"Du bist über dem Orchester; um Gottes Willen."
Oh ja, es gibt kaum was schlimmeres als zu laute Pauken.
GMahlerVerehrer 1 year ago
After reading some very good comments posted here, I have a question. For many reasons, Bruckner is a sphinx. Yes, Celi had a real symbiosis with this composer. But, when I'm searching for "Bruckner truth" I find it MORE in Jochum, in Kabasta, in Bohm's Fourth, in Furtwängler wartime Fitth, in Giulini's Eight... Any opinion? I'm totally mad?
olmaleo 1 year ago
Poor Münchner Philharmoniker.
From Celibidache heaven to Levine purgatorio and Thielemann hell.
but "Wer der Grund seines Unglücks ist, beweine sich selbst".
olmaleo 1 year ago 8
Celibidache's Bruckner recordings with the MPO are peerless, despite the conductor's disdain of recordings!
djohnnyf 1 year ago
An orchestra player for 50 years, and an observer (I have a number of VHS tabes of Celebidache), I have come to the opposite opinion of many here: that Celebidache drains every ounce of spontaneity from a performance, especially after watching him in rehearsal. I could only help thinking of what Furtwangler said in the 30's, lamenting that too much rehearsal time was allotted to a final performance, robbing it freshness and vibrancy.
muslit 1 year ago
@muslit True he hold an absolute control over the piece but in the other hand I believe he explored much different harmonical universes in them !
Bautisnemo 1 year ago
@muslit Speaking from a similar point of view (though with far less experience) I have to agree with you. It's indisputable that Celi was a great musician, but his aloof and "strangling" approach, and his fairly frequent disregard for the score made for a lot of gloomy and uncomfortable results.
One thing is certain: he was good at creating a personal mythology!
sgabriel 5 months ago
Varese52 I agree with you about the music,but unfortunately Beethoven never really met Mozart who died in 1791,and Beethoven arrived in Vienna 1794, nevertheless LVB really caught Mozart's spirit from Haydn anyway for who he said "You can't learn a thing from Haydn".He meant that he understood him, the old Beethoven would never say a thing like that, cheers!
alexjrmarino 2 years ago
I assure you that I do not trade in "music 101 condescension". I just dislike the hyperbole of calling a great composer who writes an homage to another great composer, in this case, one of his teachers, as thievery. As for Beethoven being a revolutionary, that is music 101 hype. Beethoven was taught by both Mozart and Haydn and learned a good deal from both. Composers of great talent often refer to their forbears and this is hardly thievery. It is an acknowledgment of influence and respect.
Varese52 2 years ago 2
Treasure....great man, great music..
quinto34 2 years ago 2
Shivers down my spine... Speachless.
ciociolinu 2 years ago 4
Comment removed
sitesnk 2 years ago
Your comment about Beethoven's music being revolutionary is more of an overview based upon acquaintance with examples of his music from his entire career. Early Beethoven, the First Symphony, the first piano concerto and quartets all are clearly influenced by Haydn and Mozart, two composers he respected highly. I never denied that Mahler was influenced by Bruckner, but his Brucknerian heritage ends with his 3rd Symphony. As well, Mahler's orchestration never sounds anything like Bruckner.
Varese52 2 years ago 2
No it isn't -you're dead wrong. I know all of early Beethoven and he came to his style as a revolution. He himself knew this. Of course he respected them. But it is the case of anxiety of influence --the threatened soul that produces the most fervent art. I think that's Beethoven's case. Spare me the Music 101 condescension.
FatherOfThings 2 years ago
It is patently ridiculous to claim that Mahler was a thief, any more than it is possible to call Beethoven a thief for being influenced by Mozart and Haydn, or Wagner a thief for "borrowing" something from Berlioz's Romeo and Juliet for his Tristan prelude. No composer is 100% original. They are all influenced and affected by those composers who came before them and who they admired. The whole concept of "originality" is a myth. Music is a language and there are only 12 notes in Western music.
Varese52 2 years ago 3
not really. Beethoven was far more revolutionary in his time compared to Mozart just for the fact that he did not want to compose like Mozart or Hayden but Mahler is far more similar in language to Bruckner and even the tragic Hans Rott.
FatherOfThings 2 years ago
Very logical and rightful comment Varese52.
Bautisnemo 2 years ago
I do agree with you. My statement was a silly exaggeration. But originality is not a myth when understood that there is an unique personality behind the arrangement of those 12 notes. I'm sure you agree. How else do we tell Bruckner from anyone.
FatherOfThings 2 years ago
Doesn't this passage just tear you apart? Astounding. Mahler was a thief. He stole from Hans Rott and got all his great ideas from Bruckner - but he has none of Bruckner's mystery.
jmdez 3 years ago 4
I think, I may be wrong, that Mahler was taught by Bruckner at some time.
I love both these composers.
Bruckers 3 7 and 9 are my faves.
Mahler 6 and 9 my favourites of his.
Bruckner 9 is unbelievable...so powerful, so moving...abolutely briliant.
Goosebumps galore.
nigelartist 3 years ago
Mahler was taught by Bruckner. I do like Mahler - I have to admit. I loved Mahler before I learned to appreciate Bruckner. Mahler 2, 3,9.
Wonderful.
jmdez 3 years ago
Mahler was the first composer I REALLY listened to nearly 25 years ago at the tender age of 19!
I used to 'loop' his symphonies in my car so as I REALLY got to know them.
Arguably, symphonies are the toughest to master.
nigelartist 3 years ago
i havent heard the name hans rott used for some time. in fact never !! not many know of him . I was walking into vergin in nyc about 3 years ago. walked up to the classical floor and they were playing hans rott. yes it did sound like mahler in fact i thought they were playing Mahler!!. The man died very young age 26 or so .
osumb17 3 years ago
Mahler called Bruckner "my forerunner." Incredible hubris.
Jitpring 3 years ago
Foerster say: and the Berlin Philharmonic was great with... Karajan.
My response: Noooooooooooo. With FURTWÄNGLER (The Master) ¡¡¡¡
dermann76 3 years ago
I saw Bruckner 9 and Celibidache in Munich 2 or 3 years before he died .. a monster !!!
anselmej 3 years ago 3
I can imagine
oboistCONDUCTOR 3 years ago
Where was the concert? How was it? How fortunate you are.
jsland1 3 years ago
It was the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra , in 1995 I think
anselmej 3 years ago
they smile during reahrsals, they speak with toghether, treating the director like a stupid. This is BPO now. Listen this orchestra now, with Rattle... my god... it's the END
:-(
foerster 3 years ago
and the Berlin Philharmonic was great with... Karajan.
foerster 3 years ago
Noooooooooooo. With FURTWÄNGLER (The Master) ¡¡¡¡
dermann76 3 years ago
wow celibidache and bruckner. he is the best interpreter!
jmdez 3 years ago 3
Thank you for sharing!
thomasgordy 4 years ago
Celi, one oft the best conductors ever ... may be THE best! I also prefer Fricsay.
S0NNABEND 4 years ago 3
The Munich Philharmonic was the best orchestra in the world, during Celibidache's period!
liebe0zur0musik 4 years ago 21
That's questionable...
jojomusic69 3 years ago
@liebe0zur0musik In the hands of a genius even 5 year olds will make a decent take on smth lighter of course, but that's a character of great knowledge and sensitivity, so compelling..
alexjrmarino 3 months ago
The Munich Philharmonic is one of the best in the world! Just saw them a week ago -Dec. 2007 and can only say - they are great! A must see! One of the best contra bass sections in the world, as well - amazing! When they play Bruckner or Bernstein, I cry - competely moving
EmpressEnterprises 4 years ago
Ci manchi.
rattupenigu 4 years ago 10
I agree, we miss him!!
liebe0zur0musik 4 years ago 2
Si, più che mai!
mariusfelix 2 years ago
@rattupenigu proprio tanto!
savonese1 1 year ago
I saw im in Munich, incredible artist !
anselmej 4 years ago
Too bad this video stops where Bruckner's most breathtaking writing starts, the long sequence which ends on the piling up of all tones from a C sharp scale, and obviously the calm ending bars with the most conclusive force Bruckner ever wrote. Celibidache had an intimate relationship with Bruckner, a century may have separated their lives but I can hardly imagine two artists working this closely.
bruckner26 4 years ago 5
Better late than never, sagalat. !
ekerilaz 4 years ago
PS I am finding Celi impressive here.
ekerilaz 4 years ago 4
You make me regret appreciating Bruckner so late in my life. Lush, instructive video, Bravo!
sagalat 4 years ago
Thank you for posting this. It seems to be the only footage of Bruckner's 9th on YouTube at the moment.
TheSanityInspector 4 years ago
I have the Guenther Wand recordings, will post when I have time
ulyssesjj 4 years ago