I'm drawing Mohammed because Islamists seem to think that Sharia law applies to everyone.
I'm not doing it to offend as I think anyone who draws a deliberately offensive cartoon (like Mohammed porn) doesn't get the point of DMD. This is one of the only ways to get peoples' attention as they don't like listening.
@oliethefolie What Muslim is telling you specifically that you have to follow their laws? When as anyone ever told you that you have to follow Sharia Law? And when you get the attention of all these Muslims who apparently won't listen to you otherwise and apparently think you have to follow their rules, what do you plan to do with it?
@GrapplingIgnorance Well I'm not the "main guy" of the campaign, that falls upon guys like thunderf00t.
Just today, I was having a normal (albeit, short) conversation with a Muslim friend of mine who outright told me I was going to Hell and I was actually talking about the Pope. Why is he allowed to be actually offensive and I'm not allowed to draw a deliberately inoffensive picture of a dead guy?
@oliethefolie That's the point. You ARE allowed to be deliberately offesnive, and so is he. You're both ALLOWED to say or draw burn whatever you want (inside the limits of arson & property laws irrelevant to free speech). So campaigning for the right to do something you already have the right to do is meaningless. The question becomes, SHOULD you? Just because he can tell you you're going to hell, should he? Just because you can draw a picture you know will offend him, should you?
@GrapplingIgnorance I agree. I do not have a problem telling me I'm going to Hell, I know it's just a scare tactic. The thing I hat is the hypocrisy. They can offend who they like but as soon as anyone offends them (in this case, a way which no one else would find offensive) they threaten someone. For example, Holly Norris, the indirect founder of DMD, has had to go into hiding because of fear of extremists trying to kill her like Theo Van Gogh.
@oliethefolie That is correct, but as I said in the video, it is the responsibility of the person who takes a more mature and rational position to take the high road in the course of action, not to justify a wrong with another wrong and expecting progress. I hope that clarifies my position on the matter.
@GrapplingIgnorance While I see your point of view. The main point is that a picture of Mohammed shouldn't be offensive. No Jews get pissy when you draw God, no Christians get annoyed when you draw Jesus, so why should there be a special exception for Islam?
When you talk about the mature position, while I agree that DMD is too mature and just funny, there are some people who can't be reasoned with through normal methods.
@oliethefolie Drawing God isn't against the rules of Judaism. I think Jews might get offended if you tried to feed them bacon, though. What the hell? It's just bacon. What could possibly be offensive about that? Religion has loads of asinine rules and things about which to get offended. Still, I don't really see the point of intentionally provoking them just because I can. I tend to agree with GI on this one.
@MyGrammarRules Yes it is. "Make no graven images" means "don't draw me".
Also, the bacon analogy is worthless as forcing someone to eat something against their will is disgusting. Posting something on the internet in the name of free speech is fine.
Note again, you never see a Christian mob every time someone says "Oh God" on TV even that is one of the ten commandments.
@oliethefolie Careful; I said "offered" not "forced." You have some fair points, but I'm not convinced that people are doing this "in the name of free speech." I want to say that people do it just to be dickheads. I'm sure that the people who do it tell themselves that they are just trying to make a difference, though. However, this accomplishes nothing except making people angry. The point of free speech is not to say, "HaHa, look what I can do with my free speech!"
@MyGrammarRules Remember those Dutch cartoons? Embassies were burned down, lots of people were killed, all because over-sensitive people were offended. If there is a de-centralised movement over the internet they can't do anything and will learn just to get on with their lives.
@GrapplingIgnorance Where I agree with what you say, the people who incite violence are as wrong as the people who carry out the violence, I cannot agree that we should not draw Mohammed because of the violent actions it may cause by the people who are offended by it. We have draw Mohammed day to show those who want to oppress people's free speech by enforcing laws on those who the laws should not apply. We do it to show the Muslim extremists that we are not afraid of violent threats.
lol easy to say wat he says from the shadows, doubt he'd say these things unhooded and in bright light facing the camera :P cluck cluck bgawwwwk hehehe
@ReligionlessFAITH He used to be in the open, and then the entire school of children he taught turned against him. That's why he likes his hood and shadows.
I see no reason to think muslims can be reasoned with about the rule of "don't draw mohammed". If they can be reasoned with about that, we at least should expect some reasonable responses from muslims. But from what I keep hearing it's just more violence. So I see no reason to try and stop or protest "draw mohammed day" nor to participate in it other than showing everyone that you're not afraid nor responsible for the violent reactions of those people.
No one died over draw Muhammad day. No one died because too many participated, that was the point. There is no end to the grievances Muslims will have with the conduct of the kuffar, if they are indeed Muslims and not just cherry pickers then every breath we take is an insult to them and their desert cult.
Its not about freedom of speech, its about 'defiance' in the face of those who use threats as their religious ideology.
But I do agree with you whole heartedly that people either don't see the consequences that can arise or apathetically don't care hiding behind "i have the right to do..." anything, as if that makes it either right or a good path to take.
For example, i certainly have the right to say "your wife is a cunt and want to fuck her" to a man who's insanely jealous about his wife in ways that may even be unhealthy for his marriage, but I really really doubt i'm going to fix anything by doing that.
i always the purpose of mass mockery was not to correct the offender (in this case, the murdering radicals, not the cartoonist), but it is to gather more people against that offender. To show the world, yes, this is how fucking stupid these radical assholes are and we should all mock them and when possible prosecute such inciting and violence.
I'm not sure how you plan to reach out to people like that. I think the reason that it's an issue is because you don't see members of any other religion killing people over drawings (sometimes not even offensive ones). It's mainly muslims that do this, and it's important to show that they their violence will not stop the drawings of their prophet. They need to be able to take a joke like everyone else, especially when those drawing the pictures aren't even a part of that religion.
The first time I saw someone burn an American flag, it infuriated me. Now I don't care. If we draw Mohammed thousands of times, a similar reaction will occur.
@GrapplingIgnorance Draw Mohamed day is more than trying to offend Muslims or trying to get them to grow a sense of humor. It is about showing them that their laws are not to be enforced on the rest of the world. We can draw whatever we want be it Mohamed or snoopy. Look at the riots that were in Europe over the drawings. They try to enforce their sharia bullshit through fear. If people draw their prophet every day Will they riot everyday? No the would notice how fucking pointless it is to riot.
NOT drawing Mohammed and NOT burning the Koran did NOT stop the terrorists from flying planes full of innocent people into the WTC towers and the pentagon, killing 3,000 innocent people. NOT drawing Mohammed and NOT burning the Koran did Not stop Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda from declaring Jihad against the U.S.
You're suggesting that I respect those who would kill me just because I am not Muslim? Well sir, I say FUCK THAT SHIT.
@vicious3579 Meaning that it doesn't matter what we do, the mulsim extremists still harmed non muslims simply because we are not muslim. Meaning there was a time when people were not drawing mohammed and not burning the koran, and by and large couldn't give a shit about islam, yet that didn't matter to Al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, and other muslim extremists to wage jihad against the West. NOTHING would stop these people from harming others. You cannot reason with these people.
@TheD0ded0de It's a comparison, not doing something cannot be blamed for the cause of something that you didn't know was happening. Like your example of flying planes into the twin toweres. Because we never knew it was going to happen.
Just like if there truely is a god, and me being an atheist sees no good evidence for worshiping one, if there is an afterlife and i see god i should not be blamed for my non-belief of something that i didn't have any reason to even consider as a possibillity.
@TheD0ded0de you're right, it has to do with the use of the word not, and how not doing something to prevent an unknown danger is not the cause of something.
If a person drives drunk, and hits another car and kills somebody, by your logic he can say "Well there wasn't a DUI checkpoint to stop me from driving drunk, so it's really the fault of the police!"
No that is not how it works, because we wouldn't have to set up a checkpoint if people didn't drive drunk in the first place.
@TheD0ded0de If you expect them to ever change, then yes- I suggest you respect the people enough to engage them and explain your position- to prove them wrong, rather than do whatever it takes to piss them off even more. Burning Qu'rans and drawing Muhammad, going out of your way to offend them by doing that which you wouldn't have done otherwise is NOT an exercise of free speech, nor is it an effective method for changing their mind. You'll have to convince them, not insult them for that.
@GrapplingIgnorance They are BEYOND being reasoned with. Just being a non muslim westerner pisses them off. BTW, I've never said that drawing Mohammad or burining the Koran is right, never said that. What I am saying is that excersising your free speech by doing whatever is in my right, pissed off or not. They hate me regardless. What did those three thousand people do to deserve being murdered by suicide muslim extremists on 9/11? What did they do to piss them off? NOTHING. They did NOTHING.
@TheD0ded0de So whatever we do or wont do pisses them off. Just breathing pisses them off. How do you reason with people like that? Extending olive branches is a sign of weakness to them. The moment you extend an olive branch of peace, they'll slit your throat.
You know to be honest I'm not really positive the intended audience of draw Mohammed day is even Muslims. When you think about it, its really more about showing others that the bully should not be tolerated, its punching the bully in the eye. Is it possible the bully is going to be upset by this and beat up some kids, yeah it is. But the fact remains that if no one stands up to him, you sacrifice your freedom, you give it up with out a fight. And personally I spent too much time fighting for it.
@Ammdar I've spent too much time educating bullies, and teaching them why that behavior is wrong, and that there alternatives for dealing with their fears and anger that don't require violence to beleiver that "punching them in the eye" is the adequate solution.
@GrapplingIgnorance A more comparable analogy would beif a student you were dealing with was beheading people because he wasn't getting his way. You'd have him committed and locked up, admitting that this was a problem beyond your scale. We DO NOT have this option, we cannot commit large segments of a foreign country to insane asylums. I await your alternate suggestions, that don't involve me giving up my freedoms for some insane person's beliefs. In the mean time I'll operate with mine.
@jinkusmelus "He wants you to stop burning books, or drawing caricatures as he feels it is not his way of getting a point across."
That much is obvious from the video... and from his comments. So I have to ask... is this just a fan boy "YEAH WHAT HE SAID!" or did you actually have a point?
@MrPughg "Alternatively, if you punch a bully in the eye, the bully might feel justified in their bullying. Mean world syndrome and whatnot."
Seeing as drawing Momo, is by its nature a non violent act, the punching in the eye line is a metaphor, sorry if you found it confusing. Aside from that you seemed to have missed the point, demonstrating that you are not afraid of these cultural bullies, makes other people aware that above all else, they are simply that, cultural bullies.
Alternatively, if you try to rationalise with the bully, he'll just punch you in the face again and take your money, what a wonderful world of possibilities!
Muslims must understand that their offense is /meaningless/ to us, as ours is meaningless to the Japanese who annually butcher corralled, screeching dolphins.
Having said that, I feel the large majority of those participating in EDMD are doing it purely as a middle-finger to Islam. Yet one can have this position and still be justified in observing the event for pragmatic reasons alone.
My EDMD is both, but a bit more of the bird, to be honest. :)
I personally value your ideas and sentiment but the ones that you wish to reach has a steadfast position. Moderates don't turn to Fred Phelps when they see a poster of a gay couple kissing, I think they may say, hey its not my cup of tea but who cares. I wouldn't worry about what if we offend moderates into fully fledged murderers. I understand your logic, I hope you can see mine as viable in a rational sense.
@Pineconevolved Moderates don't turn to Fred Phelps when the see a poster of gay couples, but they're much more apt to listen to his claims that the world is trying to oppress true Chrsitianity if you burn bibles in their face, or descrate crosses then claim it's you execrising "free speech."
@GrapplingIgnorance Anyone would think you are trying to change my mind or something, hahaha. Well, which ever one of the many paths one could take, it shouldn't be taken lightly. You have chosen your way carefully and for all the right reasons ( I agree), I take my choice for the right reasons too. Take into account that not every one will do what they do for the right reasons, including your way (not just 'mine'). I'm actually not going to take part in the event, just sharing my sentiment.
I made that point, to me, trying to teach muslims not to riot over burning koran would have been like burning american flags back when it was ilegal *least I think it was* and doing it infront of people that would beat you up for doing it in hopes you will show them how silly they are. The problem isn't what your burning, but the symbol it repserents and how people percieve and attack on it. Rioting over burning silk or what ever is dumb, but they see it as burning america, not just a flag.
I oppose burning books because to me it symbolizes totalitarian ideologies.
I draw Muhammad because, as I'm not a Muslim, I am not limited by the Muslim rule of not drawing him.
As I don't follow any religion, I'm not bound by religious limitations. I respect peoples wish to limit themselves to their religion but they lose my respect when demanding I do too.
@Orkaney Do you go out of your way to do everyhing that is leagal in America which is illegal in other countries just because you can? It's legal to deny the Hollocaust here, but it isn't in Austria. Do you make videos claiming you deny the Hallocaust just because you're not Ausrian? If your answer is no, then I want you to understand that it's just as foolish to dilberately do that which is offensive to a religious group just becuase you're not a member of that religion.
I draw Muhammad for many reasons. Opposing bullies, showing support for freedom of speech and expression, for the sake of honesty, and more. I never go out of my way to insult anyone but react when I feel trampled upon.
Demanding i appease funny rules that don't concern me or apply to me is just wrong, however you put it, yet it takes more than that to trigger me. I'd rather ignore them and go on my way.
I've many times encouraged Religionists to oppose undesired flows within their own religions, yet the ones I know, won't, as they don't care, or they believe it leads to desired results for their religion. With actions like this, I gain the attention where I can show them the other side of the coin.
I consider the Akkari-Laban dossier story to be one of the major triggers to this mess. If not for all the dishonesty and lies, things would be very different.
@FederalistFilms Very good points there- patience is truly a virtue when you're talking about changing an entire culture, and many are too short sited to realize that Christianity was once just as "impossible" to reason with as modern Islam.
You make a strong case and it's easy to see why people think this way, it's never the action that counts but the thought behind it. I personally believe TF is doing DMD and symbolically burning digital storage media for the reasons you cite in the first minute or so, this clearly isn't the case for all participants.
Regardless of the motivations of certain participants I still think both actions are of value, there are those who words alone will not reach, particularly the target audience.
I absolutely agree. Offending people just makes your opposition stronger. This is what many outspoken atheists do. They purposefully offend religious people, and all that does is make them stronger and more extremist.
This is what I tried to tell people after ThunderF00ts "Burn a book for free speech" video (that got me to unsub him). I didn't speak out against the first DMD because I did think they has some points, but now it's just trying to be offensive.
I'll take part in draw muhammad day as I did the first time and I do not do so "Just cause I can". I highly agree with some parts of what you say in this video, yet I highly dissagree with it in others. I am sure if you try you can find alot of good and productive reasons to keep draw muhammad day going not just this time but for all time. Peace
@GrapplingIgnorance I definitley feel like Im painting with a broad brush, but I im apprehensive to forgo demonstration for explanation. I know its what we should do, I just know the road is rough. Going back to my brush, the people who violently revolt are people deliberately quarantined and closed-off by their leaders from any other literature or even basic maths in fear of revolt. The ones we fear are the ones who have never read anything BUT the Koran. Lets try with the outsiders, tho hard.
@GrapplingIgnorance True, but those who engage in violent behavior are putting us in a moral hostage situation, if you will; they are basically absolving themselves of their responsibility for their actions by threatening us with consequences that are unwarranted. Remember, we are not responsible for their violent behavior no matter what we do. They choose to react that way, and this needs to change. I recommend that you watch ZJemp's new video called "The 'Please Stop' Utility Exploit"
@ghostofdayinperson I agree with every single word of that. I just don't think that the best way to change that problem is by repeating a catalyst for one of its worst symptoms over and over in hopes that it will make the disease go away. I truly believe that a more civil, educational, and patient cure exists.
I still hold out hope for the kids that see it. A kid is more likely to laugh at it, a kid is influenced more by the idea that other people don't believe it, less likely to respond with blind rage and more likely to ask what the adults should be: "If this is the one truth, why are so many so unafraid?".
A fundamentalist preacher can scream untill hes red in the face about a picture of "jesus fucking christ", but I guarantee the kids will still want to laugh at it.
Personally I've not quite come down on one side of this issue.
Religious laws don't matter to those not of that particular religion, and nothing is holy, in a literal sense. A book is just the material it's made of. A drawing is just a way of expressing oneself. I suppose if you mouth off to someone you might end up with a broken nose, and depending on the circumstances, some might say you deserved it.
But the Internet as all about expression. I seriously dislike youtube limiting it to 500 c
@Frottjeif And the lack of the option to edit comments.
But I'm just saying that I rarely have a problem with people expressing themselves on the Internet, less so when it's not targetet against individuals. And I'd like to see as few limits as possible, especially when it comes to the ridiculous. We have already significantly worn down the sense of blasphemy in the west, and that's a good thing. If we let them get to decide what's holy and what's off limits, they get to control society.
Man, very good points, i only see one problem: those religious people who we could reach with our arguments are usually the ones who would not get offended by free speech (and probably book burning either). Still, trying to reach the overzealous ones with with drastic measures... does seem counterproductive. Still, the event isn't that big of a deal... as most things started here on youtube :)
Good Video, Articulated, However, Let Me Simplify,,If You Burn Books, No Matter What Kind, You're A Nazi. Unless it's for the Sake of Your Very Survival, Such as for Heat if You are Trapped in the Wilderness Away from all Sources of Wood and Have Nothing Else to Use as Fuel to Fight Off the Frostbite that has Seeped Perminately into Your Brain...THEN, It Might Be Okay... lol
@Mindcrime1994 Only if you burn books with the intent of destroying the contents. Burning a book you yourself bought and paid for legally, doesn't at all matter. That one and many more are easily replaceable.
@Frottjeif and for What Reason Would You Want to Burn One of Your Books You Bought and Paid for? eh,,You Need Heat That Bad do Ya....lol There Is No GOOD Reason to Burn a Book Unless in the Category I Described.
for Survival as a Last Resort. ,,and No, Not Everywhere are Books Easy to Replace. Not All Countries Live in Spoiled Abundance as Many Do.
I really like your quote "It's free expression to call a black man a nigger, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do it just to show him that he can't take away my freedom of expression."
Well said. I've been putting off making my own video on this as so many have attempted to reason with the people screaming "free speech!" on this it seemed quite a futile endeavor. Still I may go ahead and make one. We cannot say enough about this.
I think you need to look at historical context a bit more.
Christians used to react to any less-than-flattering depiction of Jesus with violence and massive protests. It was only a few decades ago that the Life of Brian opened to HUGE protests in England. But once biblical parody became far more commonplace, people by in large stopped caring and didn't have the energy to constantly protest.
When one person does something, it is easy to silence them using violence. When 100,00 do...
@TheAnubisDrake What the hell are you talking about? My video says that in my experience offending people doesn't make them change their mind. At no point to I say that I have used these ridicule tactics against sensitive Christians. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
p1. you´re wrong. you CANT reason with unreasonable people (duh^^), THATS the very basic problem here. All we ever hear here in the EU is that all religions are equal and deserve the same amount of respect...well sorry but NO, thats just politically correct bullshit. Sometime there is such a thing as right or wrong, not respecting each others opinion. Islam is not only wrong (so is christianity of course but they dont kill/mutilate/rape/etc with the justification of their bible) but a retardant.
@managarm1349 I'm not advocating for the respect of religion- I'm advocating for the respect of people, and actually communicating with them rather than blatantly mocking them without context, explanation, or actual arguments. Would it make you change your mind about evolution if people burned the Origin of Species and mocked modern biology, or would they actually have to use facts, evidence, and real arguments if they hoped to convince you?
You are right. Burning the Quran or drawing Mohammed will only further drive them into their sanctuary of ignorance. We must understand that their politics, way of life etc are interwoven with their religion. Everything they do in daily life is down to their religion. It is more important to them than it is to other religions. Therefore, draw Mohammed etc is the utmost insult. With freedom comes respect & reponsibility. Let's educate them to help THEM aquire these same virtues.
I don't think "the majority" of muslims DO get infuriated with koran burnings, its a racist minority who get off on bullying others with threats and acts of violence.
I personally doubt this minority actually do find burning the koran as offensive as they claim to either. I think they're saying that to bully people and this is how you deal with a bully. You push them back and don't back down until they leave everyone alone.
Draw mohammad day is telling a domineering minority of HUMANS no.
@Philosification This is what happens when you make an attempt to intuit your way through these kinds of issues without a complete understanding of the culture that creates them. You say things like "I dont think "the majority" get infuriated...", and "I personally doubt...", and "I think they're saying that to...". You obviously DONT have a grasp on the sorts of things that are important to people about this issue. The fact remains. No one would be drawing Muhammad, or burning the Quran of
their own accord. Jingoists and religious opposition (Christians) do these things as a response to the untenable situation of violent Fundamentalist Islam. It's nothing more than thumbing your nose at a group of individuals, and serves no purpose other than to extend the antagonistic relationship that is already strained, and that is putting it mildly. It's anti-diplomacy. It's culturally irresponsible. Work towards peace people. Break the cycle of Humanity's stupidity.
@meridianfrost You said, " It's anti-diplomacy. It's culturally irresponsible. Work towards peace people. Break the cycle of Humanity's stupidity".
Yes the cycle is stupid. The people that you are addressing, don't think on your level, they see a lack of response as gaining ground. Our weakness is our civility, and in the end, we aren't murdering people for a cartoon, rather, we are making a stand, a peaceful protest that the only message I want to convey from it is, tolerate me, ffs its a pic.
@Pineconevolved Mocking and ridiculing people over something they consider sacred or precious is not the way to bring them to "your level" of thinking. That requires reasoning.
@GrapplingIgnorance lol, you took 'your level ', out of context ('your level', isn't my personal level). but what ever, yes, given the perfect world the irrational people would listen to reason but in reality is where its at. 'it', being the actual mental capacity of those (not all) that need enlightenment. As like, you don't see many people over the age of 20 going door to door being a mormon tool.
Mocking and ridiculing are also met with bears in some cases. Drawing a picture is the same as
going on strike to stupidity. Taking a stand is required when people get murdered for art, etc.
I simply am endorsing "don't murder us for what we say, write or draw",
There is a reasonable response, a measured response, which I am taking. In your opinion, you think it is not reasonable for me to draw a picture that will offend others. The alternative has fallen on deaf ears, its a nice proposal but it doesn't have value if no one is listening.
@Philosification The majority do take offense to it, just like the majority of Americans are offended by an American flag being burned and stomped out (though both are nothing but symbols). It is a minority that retaliate violently, but it's a majority who get offended.
The thing is, with humanity everything is about maintenance. You gotta keep doing things so that the new people born see why it's ridiculous to commit violence because of a drawing. It brings people together with the "shock" of the event, and brings people to talk about it. There are always going to be new people, and not all of them are paying attention. That's just my take, anyway.
As always it is the intentions behind the act and not the act itself that determines whether its good or bad. Example destroying a car is bad if the owner didn't consent destroying a car to make its design safer is good. Likewise destroying a Qur'an to show that it is no more holy than any other book can be good but doing it simply to piss off people is bad.
@meridianfrost Apparently I am as bad at expressing myself unambiguously as everyone else :)
My point was exactly the one I think yours is, that is that any form of communication be it language or gesture is subject to wildly varying interpretation. Since I don't have a degree in philosophy I don't have the tools to precisely express what I want to express here.
I do find the search for the source of conflicts fascinating and would welcome any insight you may have.
Drawing a picture of jesus having anal sex with a horse is highly offensive to Christians. Yet not only do people regularly draw offensive pictures like this, it has become accepted as part of Western subculture (like black humour, like dead baby jokes).
That's why for me all the "offensive" pictures of Muhammed - were exactly what should be expected, because here in the West we not only find cartoons OK, most of us also find "nsfw" cartoons OK.
But, maybe I'm offended. Maybe I'm offended that a radical mythology is the fuel for theist nutjobs, and I'm tired of it. So, the best anybody's gonna get from me is ridicule while I nonviolently depict their fictional superhero getting it in the ass by another imaginary super-dude from the neighboring fairy tale. Because like any human beings, we can only take so much violence before we return the favor. So "NO", there's no respect coming from this camp...just ridicule!!!
@yourjunk420 I agree. I myself wouldn't draw that kind of picture (or I might), but it's how our culture works, and how the global culture SHOULD work. Nothing is sacred, only specific human lives deserve respect, the rest is just history which to understand we must often subvert and ridicule, most especially the ideas that are most harmful.
@yourjunk420 Cool, I'm sure they'll all be deeply persuaded to see your point of view by your refusal to respect them based on what they value as sacred. You don't have to respect the religion, but if you plan to convince them of anything, you'll have to respect the people- just like they would need to show you respect if they expected to communicate with you on a civil level.
@GrapplingIgnorance It's probably not that they're drawing Mohammad, but that they're putting racist stereotypes into their drawings, like making his turbine out of a bomb (which is stupid in multiple ways since the turbine is a Hindu thing).
@GrapplingIgnorance "You don't have to respect the religion, but if you plan to convince them of anything, you'll have to respect the people- just like they would need to show you respect if they expected to communicate with you on a civil level."
Would this respect you are referring to be death threats if they don't get their way? To be bluntly honest, respect CANNOT be demanded by threat of imminent violence, the only thing that can is fear. If they know you fear them, they've already won.
Nice hair splitting (*sigh*). I think the whole point of "Draw Muhammad Day" , "Burn a Quran Day" and "Blasphemy Day" is to show that for each person that Muslims kill for blasphemy there will be 10,000 more who will be stirred to blaspheme their ridiculous religion and therefore killing people over it is counterproductive.
@mjh012363 OMG that makes TOTAL SENSE! That certainly was the case when the most powerful country in the world invaded a country so primitive that they were out in the street throwing rocks to repel them. The rock-throwers realized that fighting the powerful country was counter-productive, so they just gave up. We sure showed them!
p5. The one thing that is a grey area for me, in your video 1:20 to 1:27
" I find it a much wiser approach to explain why the words of holy scripture do not vindicate hateful and violent retaliation".
It was my thinking that the Qu'ran IS full of hateful and violent retaliation, but I got what you mean, you mean teach and focus on the equivalent of a Sunday service. I guess its the lesser of two evils (one being draw, the other being cherry pick from a holy book). Its one avenue, idk if right.
@Pineconevolved My point is that you argue against the words of the book. You refute the books claims rather than burning it or mocking it's alleged prophet in a way that you know enrages many of its readers.
@GrapplingIgnorance You said,"My point is that you argue against the words of the book. You refute the books claims rather than burning it or mocking it's alleged prophet in a way that you know enrages many of its readers."
My mistake on the point, I thought that or the other (my explanation), either way its a steep hill.
I love your videos Grapling, but damn, this one just really got me thinking... religion is barely worth bothering with, let alone considering once you've thought about it as much as atheists at our point, and probably many of your subscribers points. Honestly, the only reason I still bother with it is to convince people of religion to quit being bigots towards atheists. Convincing them otherwise when they don't want to be convinced is damn near impossible. They have to want to be skeptical.
It seems to me that you are mis-characterizing the intent behind draw Muhammad day. The idea is to force Islam to defend its sensibilities in a public forum, i.e. outside of what it can publicly claim as its mandate of influence. That is something that it doesn't have to do when its leaders can pick their targets and stir their followers to outrage with Islamic rhetoric.
Even though I do understand that most people take it as a stand to reserve their freedoms, it still doesn't make it any more better. The end result is no different than watching two teenage boys sizing up their phalli.
DeathofSpeech you're mischaracterizing the situation. It's not a case of mocking someone for no reason until you drive them to commit murder. It's a case of responding to being bullied with threats of violence.
If no one was killing UN workers over this, then there would be no reason to do it.
I think both reasoned discussion and "have you seen this man?" are necessary, the former is needed to reach common ground that is desperately needed, the latter is needed to illustrate that censorship through religious zealotry is foolish and doomed to failure.
@DeathofSpeech The point of the exercise is not to win the killers over to your way of thinking through thoughtful argument. The point is basically to stand up to being bullied. That is what's being missed I think.
p2. my first comment was chopped up and simplified to fit the comment box. It came out blunt. I just wanted to add, I agree with most of what you addressed (as usual, rational). Your videos are always thought provoking, much respect to you good sir :P
I think the key difference in your comparison is the violence. If a large group of black people were behaving the way a fundamentalist Muslim does over someone saying nigger (killing random people for the purpose of silencing others through fear) ... then yes. Having a large group all start saying nigger just to illustrate that the bullying will not work, would be perfectly warranted.
"Having a large group all start saying nigger just to illustrate that the bullying will not work, would be perfectly warranted."
Because slapping someone with a word that was used to dehumanize them, till they get so pissed they beat your head in, makes sense to you?
The solution is simply this...
Express your opinion on a subject... defend your opinion with reasoning and evidence, and then make an actual effort to listen to opinions other than your own when presented equally.
i don't think it is about not being bound by the quran laws. it is about those laws being outdated and incompatible with today's standards. if the book said do not eat pork, love thy neighbor as mo would then there would not be a need for such change. but the laws say to kill the non-believer and other things that people take to heart. those orders need to be highlighted and struck from the pages of history.
does that mean mockery is justified? no but that is definitely not on the same...
You do realize that Islam, Jusaism, and Christianity all share the same common root, and all include the same laws you mentioned.
Christians get through the day without killing anyone because they choose which of those antique laws to observe or interpret them as obsolete or contemporary to a past time.
...and what a lot of Christians don't grasp is that most Muslims and Jews do exactly the same thing... filtering scripture to comply with a more contemporary standard.
I agree with your reasoning, but I don't think people are burning korans just to be offensive. Like draw Mohammad day this is just a massive grass roots movement meant to send the following message: Will are not afraid of your threats of violence, freedom of expression is not up for negotiation. Period.
@jamesgaspard You're free to express yourself all you want. No Muslim is taking that from you. No law has been enacted to hamper your free speech. So I'm curious what it is that you are "expressing" if you're only doing this because you're free to. It's free expression to call a black man a nigger, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do it just to show him that he can't take away my freedom of expression.
@GrapplingIgnorance That's a false equivocation and you know it. Stating a racist slur--with an appalling history of slavery and discrimination attached--without cause and burning a book that is inherently illogical and immoral, and that has caused (and still is causing) much of the same, in the face of a very real and rabid mob are two completely different things. Fuck you, thanks.
What I find the most funny is the total irony comparing all this back to the catholic religion.
5055672439 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
☻/ This is definitely NOT Muhammad.
/▌ Don't even think that it is.
/ \ Hey, stop that..
foxlake02 9 months ago
I'm drawing Mohammed because Islamists seem to think that Sharia law applies to everyone.
I'm not doing it to offend as I think anyone who draws a deliberately offensive cartoon (like Mohammed porn) doesn't get the point of DMD. This is one of the only ways to get peoples' attention as they don't like listening.
oliethefolie 9 months ago
@oliethefolie What Muslim is telling you specifically that you have to follow their laws? When as anyone ever told you that you have to follow Sharia Law? And when you get the attention of all these Muslims who apparently won't listen to you otherwise and apparently think you have to follow their rules, what do you plan to do with it?
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance Well I'm not the "main guy" of the campaign, that falls upon guys like thunderf00t.
Just today, I was having a normal (albeit, short) conversation with a Muslim friend of mine who outright told me I was going to Hell and I was actually talking about the Pope. Why is he allowed to be actually offensive and I'm not allowed to draw a deliberately inoffensive picture of a dead guy?
oliethefolie 9 months ago
@oliethefolie That's the point. You ARE allowed to be deliberately offesnive, and so is he. You're both ALLOWED to say or draw burn whatever you want (inside the limits of arson & property laws irrelevant to free speech). So campaigning for the right to do something you already have the right to do is meaningless. The question becomes, SHOULD you? Just because he can tell you you're going to hell, should he? Just because you can draw a picture you know will offend him, should you?
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance I agree. I do not have a problem telling me I'm going to Hell, I know it's just a scare tactic. The thing I hat is the hypocrisy. They can offend who they like but as soon as anyone offends them (in this case, a way which no one else would find offensive) they threaten someone. For example, Holly Norris, the indirect founder of DMD, has had to go into hiding because of fear of extremists trying to kill her like Theo Van Gogh.
oliethefolie 9 months ago
@oliethefolie That is correct, but as I said in the video, it is the responsibility of the person who takes a more mature and rational position to take the high road in the course of action, not to justify a wrong with another wrong and expecting progress. I hope that clarifies my position on the matter.
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance While I see your point of view. The main point is that a picture of Mohammed shouldn't be offensive. No Jews get pissy when you draw God, no Christians get annoyed when you draw Jesus, so why should there be a special exception for Islam?
When you talk about the mature position, while I agree that DMD is too mature and just funny, there are some people who can't be reasoned with through normal methods.
oliethefolie 9 months ago
@oliethefolie Drawing God isn't against the rules of Judaism. I think Jews might get offended if you tried to feed them bacon, though. What the hell? It's just bacon. What could possibly be offensive about that? Religion has loads of asinine rules and things about which to get offended. Still, I don't really see the point of intentionally provoking them just because I can. I tend to agree with GI on this one.
MyGrammarRules 9 months ago
@MyGrammarRules Yes it is. "Make no graven images" means "don't draw me".
Also, the bacon analogy is worthless as forcing someone to eat something against their will is disgusting. Posting something on the internet in the name of free speech is fine.
Note again, you never see a Christian mob every time someone says "Oh God" on TV even that is one of the ten commandments.
oliethefolie 9 months ago
@oliethefolie Careful; I said "offered" not "forced." You have some fair points, but I'm not convinced that people are doing this "in the name of free speech." I want to say that people do it just to be dickheads. I'm sure that the people who do it tell themselves that they are just trying to make a difference, though. However, this accomplishes nothing except making people angry. The point of free speech is not to say, "HaHa, look what I can do with my free speech!"
MyGrammarRules 9 months ago
@MyGrammarRules Remember those Dutch cartoons? Embassies were burned down, lots of people were killed, all because over-sensitive people were offended. If there is a de-centralised movement over the internet they can't do anything and will learn just to get on with their lives.
oliethefolie 9 months ago
What is the difference between the 1st, 12h, 1200th & 1201st cartoon? Between DMD1 & DMD2? Between DMD-x, an annual dog show or Oktoberfest?
Sharia doesn't apply to non-Muslims. Not last year, today, on May 20th, 9-11 or Ramadan. It's that simple.
PS Your favorite cartoon is a lie - Osama was not an enemy of Islam, he was the star pupil.
akylae101 9 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance Where I agree with what you say, the people who incite violence are as wrong as the people who carry out the violence, I cannot agree that we should not draw Mohammed because of the violent actions it may cause by the people who are offended by it. We have draw Mohammed day to show those who want to oppress people's free speech by enforcing laws on those who the laws should not apply. We do it to show the Muslim extremists that we are not afraid of violent threats.
LightsCameraPie 9 months ago
lol easy to say wat he says from the shadows, doubt he'd say these things unhooded and in bright light facing the camera :P cluck cluck bgawwwwk hehehe
ReligionlessFAITH 10 months ago
@ReligionlessFAITH He used to be in the open, and then the entire school of children he taught turned against him. That's why he likes his hood and shadows.
hotdoh 9 months ago
@hotdoh doh!
ReligionlessFAITH 9 months ago
@ReligionlessFAITH "Hotdog" is always taken, so this is what I have. :)
hotdoh 9 months ago
There's a single muslim ad to the side.....
GuitarFisherman2112 10 months ago
I see no reason to think muslims can be reasoned with about the rule of "don't draw mohammed". If they can be reasoned with about that, we at least should expect some reasonable responses from muslims. But from what I keep hearing it's just more violence. So I see no reason to try and stop or protest "draw mohammed day" nor to participate in it other than showing everyone that you're not afraid nor responsible for the violent reactions of those people.
FHomeBrew 10 months ago
So I guess you're not drawing any mooohamheads this year?
cookeladoo 10 months ago
No one died over draw Muhammad day. No one died because too many participated, that was the point. There is no end to the grievances Muslims will have with the conduct of the kuffar, if they are indeed Muslims and not just cherry pickers then every breath we take is an insult to them and their desert cult.
Its not about freedom of speech, its about 'defiance' in the face of those who use threats as their religious ideology.
123backinyerface 10 months ago
Don't they burn flags, effigies, declare fatwahs, and jihads, and blow shit up and kill people? The muslim majority is the problem.
adolthitler 10 months ago
I don't agree that burning a book and drawing a smiling stick figure with a common male name next to it is the same.
I also don't agree with the "incitement" point.
There are people persecuted for blasphemy. They did not ask for being persecuted or incite responses that justify said persecution.
socrates856 10 months ago
But I do agree with you whole heartedly that people either don't see the consequences that can arise or apathetically don't care hiding behind "i have the right to do..." anything, as if that makes it either right or a good path to take.
For example, i certainly have the right to say "your wife is a cunt and want to fuck her" to a man who's insanely jealous about his wife in ways that may even be unhealthy for his marriage, but I really really doubt i'm going to fix anything by doing that.
qtzlctl2012 10 months ago
i always the purpose of mass mockery was not to correct the offender (in this case, the murdering radicals, not the cartoonist), but it is to gather more people against that offender. To show the world, yes, this is how fucking stupid these radical assholes are and we should all mock them and when possible prosecute such inciting and violence.
qtzlctl2012 10 months ago
Thanks for giving me a different perspective. Appreciate it.
bb1134 10 months ago
Hey, I want to thank you for putting my argument into such a simplistic, eloquent thought.
I explained this to many people, only a few understood me.
TheCopaceticMan 10 months ago
my mohammed painting will be tasteful.
Ninjaculation 10 months ago
I'm not sure how you plan to reach out to people like that. I think the reason that it's an issue is because you don't see members of any other religion killing people over drawings (sometimes not even offensive ones). It's mainly muslims that do this, and it's important to show that they their violence will not stop the drawings of their prophet. They need to be able to take a joke like everyone else, especially when those drawing the pictures aren't even a part of that religion.
d34d23 10 months ago
I could say that you just converted me from Thunderf00t to Grappling Ignorance.
Alfalotter 10 months ago
The first time I saw someone burn an American flag, it infuriated me. Now I don't care. If we draw Mohammed thousands of times, a similar reaction will occur.
egeswender 10 months ago
This video is crap.
TheObermiller 10 months ago
@TheObermiller That's a marvelous refutation! Are you the president of your local debate club, or do you just love sparking engaging conversation?
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance Draw Mohamed day is more than trying to offend Muslims or trying to get them to grow a sense of humor. It is about showing them that their laws are not to be enforced on the rest of the world. We can draw whatever we want be it Mohamed or snoopy. Look at the riots that were in Europe over the drawings. They try to enforce their sharia bullshit through fear. If people draw their prophet every day Will they riot everyday? No the would notice how fucking pointless it is to riot.
TheObermiller 10 months ago
Well put. I didn't participate in draw Muhammad day last year and I won't be doing it this year either.
vicious3579 10 months ago
@vicious3579 cool story bro.
theclinger 10 months ago
NOT drawing Mohammed and NOT burning the Koran did NOT stop the terrorists from flying planes full of innocent people into the WTC towers and the pentagon, killing 3,000 innocent people. NOT drawing Mohammed and NOT burning the Koran did Not stop Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda from declaring Jihad against the U.S.
You're suggesting that I respect those who would kill me just because I am not Muslim? Well sir, I say FUCK THAT SHIT.
TheD0ded0de 10 months ago
@TheD0ded0de
Are you seriously suggesting that burning Korans or drawin Muhammad would have stopped either of those things?
vicious3579 10 months ago
@vicious3579 Meaning that it doesn't matter what we do, the mulsim extremists still harmed non muslims simply because we are not muslim. Meaning there was a time when people were not drawing mohammed and not burning the koran, and by and large couldn't give a shit about islam, yet that didn't matter to Al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, and other muslim extremists to wage jihad against the West. NOTHING would stop these people from harming others. You cannot reason with these people.
TheD0ded0de 10 months ago
@TheD0ded0de
You do realize that 9/11 was a politically motivated attack that was "sold" to the hijackers under the guise of religion right?
vicious3579 10 months ago
@vicious3579 irrelevent
TheD0ded0de 10 months ago
@TheD0ded0de
How so?
vicious3579 10 months ago
@TheD0ded0de Well to be fair, NOT believing in a god does NOT mean that he does NOT exist. I am an atheist, but broken logic is still broken logic.
AtheisticTeenager 10 months ago
@AtheisticTeenager who said anything about whether God exists? That's a non-sequitur. How is my logic broken?
TheD0ded0de 10 months ago
@TheD0ded0de It's a comparison, not doing something cannot be blamed for the cause of something that you didn't know was happening. Like your example of flying planes into the twin toweres. Because we never knew it was going to happen.
Just like if there truely is a god, and me being an atheist sees no good evidence for worshiping one, if there is an afterlife and i see god i should not be blamed for my non-belief of something that i didn't have any reason to even consider as a possibillity.
AtheisticTeenager 10 months ago
@AtheisticTeenager it's a false comparison, this has absolutely nothing to do with atheism.
TheD0ded0de 10 months ago
@TheD0ded0de you're right, it has to do with the use of the word not, and how not doing something to prevent an unknown danger is not the cause of something.
If a person drives drunk, and hits another car and kills somebody, by your logic he can say "Well there wasn't a DUI checkpoint to stop me from driving drunk, so it's really the fault of the police!"
No that is not how it works, because we wouldn't have to set up a checkpoint if people didn't drive drunk in the first place.
AtheisticTeenager 10 months ago
@TheD0ded0de If you expect them to ever change, then yes- I suggest you respect the people enough to engage them and explain your position- to prove them wrong, rather than do whatever it takes to piss them off even more. Burning Qu'rans and drawing Muhammad, going out of your way to offend them by doing that which you wouldn't have done otherwise is NOT an exercise of free speech, nor is it an effective method for changing their mind. You'll have to convince them, not insult them for that.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance They are BEYOND being reasoned with. Just being a non muslim westerner pisses them off. BTW, I've never said that drawing Mohammad or burining the Koran is right, never said that. What I am saying is that excersising your free speech by doing whatever is in my right, pissed off or not. They hate me regardless. What did those three thousand people do to deserve being murdered by suicide muslim extremists on 9/11? What did they do to piss them off? NOTHING. They did NOTHING.
TheD0ded0de 10 months ago
@TheD0ded0de So whatever we do or wont do pisses them off. Just breathing pisses them off. How do you reason with people like that? Extending olive branches is a sign of weakness to them. The moment you extend an olive branch of peace, they'll slit your throat.
TheD0ded0de 10 months ago
Good point.
Skepticktok 10 months ago
Draw Muhamad Day=Trolling Muslims
they will be mad...
Nothernwolfboarder 10 months ago
"Worse? How could it be worse? Je-HO-vah, JE-HO-VAH!"
dabigq 10 months ago
You know to be honest I'm not really positive the intended audience of draw Mohammed day is even Muslims. When you think about it, its really more about showing others that the bully should not be tolerated, its punching the bully in the eye. Is it possible the bully is going to be upset by this and beat up some kids, yeah it is. But the fact remains that if no one stands up to him, you sacrifice your freedom, you give it up with out a fight. And personally I spent too much time fighting for it.
Ammdar 10 months ago 10
@Ammdar I've spent too much time educating bullies, and teaching them why that behavior is wrong, and that there alternatives for dealing with their fears and anger that don't require violence to beleiver that "punching them in the eye" is the adequate solution.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance A more comparable analogy would beif a student you were dealing with was beheading people because he wasn't getting his way. You'd have him committed and locked up, admitting that this was a problem beyond your scale. We DO NOT have this option, we cannot commit large segments of a foreign country to insane asylums. I await your alternate suggestions, that don't involve me giving up my freedoms for some insane person's beliefs. In the mean time I'll operate with mine.
Ammdar 10 months ago
@Ammdar He wants you to stop burning books, or drawing caricatures as he feels it is not his way of getting a point across.
jinkusmelus 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jinkusmelus "He wants you to stop burning books, or drawing caricatures as he feels it is not his way of getting a point across."
That much is obvious from the video... and from his comments. So I have to ask... is this just a fan boy "YEAH WHAT HE SAID!" or did you actually have a point?
Ammdar 10 months ago
@Ammdar Alternatively, if you punch a bully in the eye, the bully might feel justified in their bullying. Mean world syndrome and whatnot.
MrPughg 10 months ago
@MrPughg "Alternatively, if you punch a bully in the eye, the bully might feel justified in their bullying. Mean world syndrome and whatnot."
Seeing as drawing Momo, is by its nature a non violent act, the punching in the eye line is a metaphor, sorry if you found it confusing. Aside from that you seemed to have missed the point, demonstrating that you are not afraid of these cultural bullies, makes other people aware that above all else, they are simply that, cultural bullies.
Ammdar 10 months ago
@MrPughg
Alternatively, if you try to rationalise with the bully, he'll just punch you in the face again and take your money, what a wonderful world of possibilities!
jinkusmelus 10 months ago
advert banner: single muslim
WTF!
Futur3sailoR 10 months ago
Muslims must understand that their offense is /meaningless/ to us, as ours is meaningless to the Japanese who annually butcher corralled, screeching dolphins.
Having said that, I feel the large majority of those participating in EDMD are doing it purely as a middle-finger to Islam. Yet one can have this position and still be justified in observing the event for pragmatic reasons alone.
My EDMD is both, but a bit more of the bird, to be honest. :)
TimothyStuartRiches 10 months ago
I personally value your ideas and sentiment but the ones that you wish to reach has a steadfast position. Moderates don't turn to Fred Phelps when they see a poster of a gay couple kissing, I think they may say, hey its not my cup of tea but who cares. I wouldn't worry about what if we offend moderates into fully fledged murderers. I understand your logic, I hope you can see mine as viable in a rational sense.
Pineconevolved 10 months ago
@Pineconevolved Moderates don't turn to Fred Phelps when the see a poster of gay couples, but they're much more apt to listen to his claims that the world is trying to oppress true Chrsitianity if you burn bibles in their face, or descrate crosses then claim it's you execrising "free speech."
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance Anyone would think you are trying to change my mind or something, hahaha. Well, which ever one of the many paths one could take, it shouldn't be taken lightly. You have chosen your way carefully and for all the right reasons ( I agree), I take my choice for the right reasons too. Take into account that not every one will do what they do for the right reasons, including your way (not just 'mine'). I'm actually not going to take part in the event, just sharing my sentiment.
Pineconevolved 10 months ago 3
I made that point, to me, trying to teach muslims not to riot over burning koran would have been like burning american flags back when it was ilegal *least I think it was* and doing it infront of people that would beat you up for doing it in hopes you will show them how silly they are. The problem isn't what your burning, but the symbol it repserents and how people percieve and attack on it. Rioting over burning silk or what ever is dumb, but they see it as burning america, not just a flag.
wolfwing1 10 months ago
I'm going to protest by putting digital copies of the Koran on my hard drive, and then deleting them!!
CMO999 10 months ago
I oppose burning books because to me it symbolizes totalitarian ideologies.
I draw Muhammad because, as I'm not a Muslim, I am not limited by the Muslim rule of not drawing him.
As I don't follow any religion, I'm not bound by religious limitations. I respect peoples wish to limit themselves to their religion but they lose my respect when demanding I do too.
Orkaney 10 months ago
@Orkaney Do you go out of your way to do everyhing that is leagal in America which is illegal in other countries just because you can? It's legal to deny the Hollocaust here, but it isn't in Austria. Do you make videos claiming you deny the Hallocaust just because you're not Ausrian? If your answer is no, then I want you to understand that it's just as foolish to dilberately do that which is offensive to a religious group just becuase you're not a member of that religion.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance
I draw Muhammad for many reasons. Opposing bullies, showing support for freedom of speech and expression, for the sake of honesty, and more. I never go out of my way to insult anyone but react when I feel trampled upon.
Demanding i appease funny rules that don't concern me or apply to me is just wrong, however you put it, yet it takes more than that to trigger me. I'd rather ignore them and go on my way.
Continued...
Orkaney 9 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance ...deunitnoC
I've many times encouraged Religionists to oppose undesired flows within their own religions, yet the ones I know, won't, as they don't care, or they believe it leads to desired results for their religion. With actions like this, I gain the attention where I can show them the other side of the coin.
I consider the Akkari-Laban dossier story to be one of the major triggers to this mess. If not for all the dishonesty and lies, things would be very different.
Orkaney 9 months ago
@FederalistFilms Very good points there- patience is truly a virtue when you're talking about changing an entire culture, and many are too short sited to realize that Christianity was once just as "impossible" to reason with as modern Islam.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
Listen to a Muslim instead of burning the one thing he cherishes more than his own life?! How dare you mock free speech!
OmniZodd 10 months ago
You make a strong case and it's easy to see why people think this way, it's never the action that counts but the thought behind it. I personally believe TF is doing DMD and symbolically burning digital storage media for the reasons you cite in the first minute or so, this clearly isn't the case for all participants.
Regardless of the motivations of certain participants I still think both actions are of value, there are those who words alone will not reach, particularly the target audience.
meucunt1 10 months ago
I absolutely agree. Offending people just makes your opposition stronger. This is what many outspoken atheists do. They purposefully offend religious people, and all that does is make them stronger and more extremist.
guyboy625 10 months ago
Thumbed up and added to favorites.
This is what I tried to tell people after ThunderF00ts "Burn a book for free speech" video (that got me to unsub him). I didn't speak out against the first DMD because I did think they has some points, but now it's just trying to be offensive.
I will always side with educating people.
OtherGonzo 10 months ago
*agreed*
Wulfshade 10 months ago
I'll take part in draw muhammad day as I did the first time and I do not do so "Just cause I can". I highly agree with some parts of what you say in this video, yet I highly dissagree with it in others. I am sure if you try you can find alot of good and productive reasons to keep draw muhammad day going not just this time but for all time. Peace
TheRenekruse 10 months ago
Very eloquent and insightful, as always.
BiowareNut 10 months ago
I cannot decide whether you look like Imperator Palpatine or the Grim Reaper.
SeltsamerAttraktor 10 months ago
Sadly, explaining things to people who are unreasonable is as useless as burning paper
ghostofdayinperson 10 months ago 7
@ghostofdayinperson That may be true, but explaining things to them is less likely to incite violence, and fuel their hatred.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance I definitley feel like Im painting with a broad brush, but I im apprehensive to forgo demonstration for explanation. I know its what we should do, I just know the road is rough. Going back to my brush, the people who violently revolt are people deliberately quarantined and closed-off by their leaders from any other literature or even basic maths in fear of revolt. The ones we fear are the ones who have never read anything BUT the Koran. Lets try with the outsiders, tho hard.
jgordon707 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance True, but those who engage in violent behavior are putting us in a moral hostage situation, if you will; they are basically absolving themselves of their responsibility for their actions by threatening us with consequences that are unwarranted. Remember, we are not responsible for their violent behavior no matter what we do. They choose to react that way, and this needs to change. I recommend that you watch ZJemp's new video called "The 'Please Stop' Utility Exploit"
ghostofdayinperson 9 months ago
@ghostofdayinperson I agree with every single word of that. I just don't think that the best way to change that problem is by repeating a catalyst for one of its worst symptoms over and over in hopes that it will make the disease go away. I truly believe that a more civil, educational, and patient cure exists.
GrapplingIgnorance 9 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance I hope that you're right and that we find this cure ASAP!! :)
ghostofdayinperson 9 months ago
You're a wise man by my reckoning.
AuntieDiluvian 10 months ago
I said,"Our weakness is our civility".
I'd like to add, our weakness is our civility - to archaic beliefs that lead to countless murders in the name of that belief.
Pineconevolved 10 months ago
You are wise beyond your years.
myteethareshiny 10 months ago
I'm gonna burn a physics book to piss off all those stupid mathematicians who are smarter than I am... I hate math!
squirreljester2 10 months ago
I still hold out hope for the kids that see it. A kid is more likely to laugh at it, a kid is influenced more by the idea that other people don't believe it, less likely to respond with blind rage and more likely to ask what the adults should be: "If this is the one truth, why are so many so unafraid?".
A fundamentalist preacher can scream untill hes red in the face about a picture of "jesus fucking christ", but I guarantee the kids will still want to laugh at it.
JoesephKatana 10 months ago
Personally I've not quite come down on one side of this issue.
Religious laws don't matter to those not of that particular religion, and nothing is holy, in a literal sense. A book is just the material it's made of. A drawing is just a way of expressing oneself. I suppose if you mouth off to someone you might end up with a broken nose, and depending on the circumstances, some might say you deserved it.
But the Internet as all about expression. I seriously dislike youtube limiting it to 500 c
Frottjeif 10 months ago
@Frottjeif And the lack of the option to edit comments.
But I'm just saying that I rarely have a problem with people expressing themselves on the Internet, less so when it's not targetet against individuals. And I'd like to see as few limits as possible, especially when it comes to the ridiculous. We have already significantly worn down the sense of blasphemy in the west, and that's a good thing. If we let them get to decide what's holy and what's off limits, they get to control society.
Frottjeif 10 months ago
Man, very good points, i only see one problem: those religious people who we could reach with our arguments are usually the ones who would not get offended by free speech (and probably book burning either). Still, trying to reach the overzealous ones with with drastic measures... does seem counterproductive. Still, the event isn't that big of a deal... as most things started here on youtube :)
Anonymous247n 10 months ago
Agreed completely.
IMO, DMD2 is nothing but offending in retribution for offense taken.
Not very effective, or civil for that matter.
nishbrown 10 months ago
Good Video, Articulated, However, Let Me Simplify,,If You Burn Books, No Matter What Kind, You're A Nazi. Unless it's for the Sake of Your Very Survival, Such as for Heat if You are Trapped in the Wilderness Away from all Sources of Wood and Have Nothing Else to Use as Fuel to Fight Off the Frostbite that has Seeped Perminately into Your Brain...THEN, It Might Be Okay... lol
Mindcrime1994 10 months ago
@Mindcrime1994 Only if you burn books with the intent of destroying the contents. Burning a book you yourself bought and paid for legally, doesn't at all matter. That one and many more are easily replaceable.
Frottjeif 10 months ago
@Frottjeif and for What Reason Would You Want to Burn One of Your Books You Bought and Paid for? eh,,You Need Heat That Bad do Ya....lol There Is No GOOD Reason to Burn a Book Unless in the Category I Described.
for Survival as a Last Resort. ,,and No, Not Everywhere are Books Easy to Replace. Not All Countries Live in Spoiled Abundance as Many Do.
Mindcrime1994 10 months ago
I really like your quote "It's free expression to call a black man a nigger, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do it just to show him that he can't take away my freedom of expression."
SimplyObjective 10 months ago
I just have a problem with burning books. Any books. It's better to refute the flaws in the book.
rationalwarrior 10 months ago
Well said. I've been putting off making my own video on this as so many have attempted to reason with the people screaming "free speech!" on this it seemed quite a futile endeavor. Still I may go ahead and make one. We cannot say enough about this.
allbabiesareatheists 10 months ago
I think you need to look at historical context a bit more.
Christians used to react to any less-than-flattering depiction of Jesus with violence and massive protests. It was only a few decades ago that the Life of Brian opened to HUGE protests in England. But once biblical parody became far more commonplace, people by in large stopped caring and didn't have the energy to constantly protest.
When one person does something, it is easy to silence them using violence. When 100,00 do...
TheHobgoblyn 10 months ago
this vid made me take down and cross out my "draw mohamed" sticky note, good point GI, drawing mohamed NOW doesn't have a point.
Zralf 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheAnubisDrake 10 months ago
@TheAnubisDrake What the hell are you talking about? My video says that in my experience offending people doesn't make them change their mind. At no point to I say that I have used these ridicule tactics against sensitive Christians. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
GTG get back to you on that.
TheAnubisDrake 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance Re-watched, previous statement retracted. :P
TheAnubisDrake 10 months ago
p1. you´re wrong. you CANT reason with unreasonable people (duh^^), THATS the very basic problem here. All we ever hear here in the EU is that all religions are equal and deserve the same amount of respect...well sorry but NO, thats just politically correct bullshit. Sometime there is such a thing as right or wrong, not respecting each others opinion. Islam is not only wrong (so is christianity of course but they dont kill/mutilate/rape/etc with the justification of their bible) but a retardant.
managarm1349 10 months ago
@managarm1349 I'm not advocating for the respect of religion- I'm advocating for the respect of people, and actually communicating with them rather than blatantly mocking them without context, explanation, or actual arguments. Would it make you change your mind about evolution if people burned the Origin of Species and mocked modern biology, or would they actually have to use facts, evidence, and real arguments if they hoped to convince you?
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
i support draw mohammed day burning the koran not so much.
potatomonster19 10 months ago
Wise words, absolutely necessary in these times of confusion! I love this vid!
graphattic 10 months ago 2
Great video man. I am in agreement with your points.
ONESPECIES 10 months ago
You are right. Burning the Quran or drawing Mohammed will only further drive them into their sanctuary of ignorance. We must understand that their politics, way of life etc are interwoven with their religion. Everything they do in daily life is down to their religion. It is more important to them than it is to other religions. Therefore, draw Mohammed etc is the utmost insult. With freedom comes respect & reponsibility. Let's educate them to help THEM aquire these same virtues.
pilgrimpater 10 months ago
I don't think "the majority" of muslims DO get infuriated with koran burnings, its a racist minority who get off on bullying others with threats and acts of violence.
I personally doubt this minority actually do find burning the koran as offensive as they claim to either. I think they're saying that to bully people and this is how you deal with a bully. You push them back and don't back down until they leave everyone alone.
Draw mohammad day is telling a domineering minority of HUMANS no.
Philosification 10 months ago
@Philosification This is what happens when you make an attempt to intuit your way through these kinds of issues without a complete understanding of the culture that creates them. You say things like "I dont think "the majority" get infuriated...", and "I personally doubt...", and "I think they're saying that to...". You obviously DONT have a grasp on the sorts of things that are important to people about this issue. The fact remains. No one would be drawing Muhammad, or burning the Quran of
meridianfrost 10 months ago
their own accord. Jingoists and religious opposition (Christians) do these things as a response to the untenable situation of violent Fundamentalist Islam. It's nothing more than thumbing your nose at a group of individuals, and serves no purpose other than to extend the antagonistic relationship that is already strained, and that is putting it mildly. It's anti-diplomacy. It's culturally irresponsible. Work towards peace people. Break the cycle of Humanity's stupidity.
meridianfrost 10 months ago
@meridianfrost You said, " It's anti-diplomacy. It's culturally irresponsible. Work towards peace people. Break the cycle of Humanity's stupidity".
Yes the cycle is stupid. The people that you are addressing, don't think on your level, they see a lack of response as gaining ground. Our weakness is our civility, and in the end, we aren't murdering people for a cartoon, rather, we are making a stand, a peaceful protest that the only message I want to convey from it is, tolerate me, ffs its a pic.
Pineconevolved 10 months ago
@Pineconevolved Mocking and ridiculing people over something they consider sacred or precious is not the way to bring them to "your level" of thinking. That requires reasoning.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance lol, you took 'your level ', out of context ('your level', isn't my personal level). but what ever, yes, given the perfect world the irrational people would listen to reason but in reality is where its at. 'it', being the actual mental capacity of those (not all) that need enlightenment. As like, you don't see many people over the age of 20 going door to door being a mormon tool.
Mocking and ridiculing are also met with bears in some cases. Drawing a picture is the same as
Pineconevolved 10 months ago
going on strike to stupidity. Taking a stand is required when people get murdered for art, etc.
I simply am endorsing "don't murder us for what we say, write or draw",
There is a reasonable response, a measured response, which I am taking. In your opinion, you think it is not reasonable for me to draw a picture that will offend others. The alternative has fallen on deaf ears, its a nice proposal but it doesn't have value if no one is listening.
Pineconevolved 10 months ago
@Philosification The majority do take offense to it, just like the majority of Americans are offended by an American flag being burned and stomped out (though both are nothing but symbols). It is a minority that retaliate violently, but it's a majority who get offended.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
Muslims are just like Christians sheep where atheists are more like goats or something like that i guess
q41n 10 months ago
The thing is, with humanity everything is about maintenance. You gotta keep doing things so that the new people born see why it's ridiculous to commit violence because of a drawing. It brings people together with the "shock" of the event, and brings people to talk about it. There are always going to be new people, and not all of them are paying attention. That's just my take, anyway.
limegreensquid 10 months ago
As always it is the intentions behind the act and not the act itself that determines whether its good or bad. Example destroying a car is bad if the owner didn't consent destroying a car to make its design safer is good. Likewise destroying a Qur'an to show that it is no more holy than any other book can be good but doing it simply to piss off people is bad.
karakzanreal 10 months ago
@karakzanreal No. That is a paragraph of fail. Regroup, and try again. Hint - "I'm cold." ...or "I'm hungry".
P.S. "Intentions" are as subjective as "actions".
meridianfrost 10 months ago
@meridianfrost Apparently I am as bad at expressing myself unambiguously as everyone else :)
My point was exactly the one I think yours is, that is that any form of communication be it language or gesture is subject to wildly varying interpretation. Since I don't have a degree in philosophy I don't have the tools to precisely express what I want to express here.
I do find the search for the source of conflicts fascinating and would welcome any insight you may have.
karakzanreal 10 months ago
So much time and money wasted on religion, sigh i'm ready for this species to travel the stars.
maborong 10 months ago
Um.. simple point to make here:
Drawing a picture of jesus having anal sex with a horse is highly offensive to Christians. Yet not only do people regularly draw offensive pictures like this, it has become accepted as part of Western subculture (like black humour, like dead baby jokes).
That's why for me all the "offensive" pictures of Muhammed - were exactly what should be expected, because here in the West we not only find cartoons OK, most of us also find "nsfw" cartoons OK.
8DX 10 months ago
But, maybe I'm offended. Maybe I'm offended that a radical mythology is the fuel for theist nutjobs, and I'm tired of it. So, the best anybody's gonna get from me is ridicule while I nonviolently depict their fictional superhero getting it in the ass by another imaginary super-dude from the neighboring fairy tale. Because like any human beings, we can only take so much violence before we return the favor. So "NO", there's no respect coming from this camp...just ridicule!!!
yourjunk420 10 months ago
@yourjunk420 I agree. I myself wouldn't draw that kind of picture (or I might), but it's how our culture works, and how the global culture SHOULD work. Nothing is sacred, only specific human lives deserve respect, the rest is just history which to understand we must often subvert and ridicule, most especially the ideas that are most harmful.
8DX 10 months ago
@yourjunk420 Cool, I'm sure they'll all be deeply persuaded to see your point of view by your refusal to respect them based on what they value as sacred. You don't have to respect the religion, but if you plan to convince them of anything, you'll have to respect the people- just like they would need to show you respect if they expected to communicate with you on a civil level.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago 2
@GrapplingIgnorance It's probably not that they're drawing Mohammad, but that they're putting racist stereotypes into their drawings, like making his turbine out of a bomb (which is stupid in multiple ways since the turbine is a Hindu thing).
AdonTimasu 10 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance "You don't have to respect the religion, but if you plan to convince them of anything, you'll have to respect the people- just like they would need to show you respect if they expected to communicate with you on a civil level."
Would this respect you are referring to be death threats if they don't get their way? To be bluntly honest, respect CANNOT be demanded by threat of imminent violence, the only thing that can is fear. If they know you fear them, they've already won.
Ammdar 10 months ago
Nice hair splitting (*sigh*). I think the whole point of "Draw Muhammad Day" , "Burn a Quran Day" and "Blasphemy Day" is to show that for each person that Muslims kill for blasphemy there will be 10,000 more who will be stirred to blaspheme their ridiculous religion and therefore killing people over it is counterproductive.
mjh012363 10 months ago
@mjh012363 OMG that makes TOTAL SENSE! That certainly was the case when the most powerful country in the world invaded a country so primitive that they were out in the street throwing rocks to repel them. The rock-throwers realized that fighting the powerful country was counter-productive, so they just gave up. We sure showed them!
meridianfrost 10 months ago
@meridianfrost I wish I could give this comment 10 thumbs up.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
@meridianfrost FU and your strawman and false comparison very much! (troll) -_-
mjh012363 10 months ago
p5. The one thing that is a grey area for me, in your video 1:20 to 1:27
" I find it a much wiser approach to explain why the words of holy scripture do not vindicate hateful and violent retaliation".
It was my thinking that the Qu'ran IS full of hateful and violent retaliation, but I got what you mean, you mean teach and focus on the equivalent of a Sunday service. I guess its the lesser of two evils (one being draw, the other being cherry pick from a holy book). Its one avenue, idk if right.
Pineconevolved 10 months ago
@Pineconevolved Except he fails to say how to try to explain this to the muslim world:
They have a couple of books which should only be interpreted in Arabic, not by Westerners.
All that's in one of these books is God's divine commands, the other is words of the holy prophet.
A lot of these muslims think people in the West are adulturers, whores, murdurers, vilains.
Plus there are the ordinary people, the moderates, who understand already that getting offended and killing people is bad.
8DX 10 months ago
@Pineconevolved My point is that you argue against the words of the book. You refute the books claims rather than burning it or mocking it's alleged prophet in a way that you know enrages many of its readers.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@GrapplingIgnorance You said,"My point is that you argue against the words of the book. You refute the books claims rather than burning it or mocking it's alleged prophet in a way that you know enrages many of its readers."
My mistake on the point, I thought that or the other (my explanation), either way its a steep hill.
Pineconevolved 10 months ago
well said, well reasoned.
TogetherForPeace 10 months ago
I love your videos Grapling, but damn, this one just really got me thinking... religion is barely worth bothering with, let alone considering once you've thought about it as much as atheists at our point, and probably many of your subscribers points. Honestly, the only reason I still bother with it is to convince people of religion to quit being bigots towards atheists. Convincing them otherwise when they don't want to be convinced is damn near impossible. They have to want to be skeptical.
pumarunner88 10 months ago
It seems to me that you are mis-characterizing the intent behind draw Muhammad day. The idea is to force Islam to defend its sensibilities in a public forum, i.e. outside of what it can publicly claim as its mandate of influence. That is something that it doesn't have to do when its leaders can pick their targets and stir their followers to outrage with Islamic rhetoric.
Blackmark52 10 months ago
Even though I do understand that most people take it as a stand to reserve their freedoms, it still doesn't make it any more better. The end result is no different than watching two teenage boys sizing up their phalli.
GreatEighthSin 10 months ago
@GreatEighthSin (i reposted)p4.You want to hear non muslims say, " I can draw Mo but I wont because i respect your culture"
and You want Muslims to say, "Its okay if you draw Mo because i respect your culture"
What would you say if pork was the muslim vogue issue? (just makin chit chat, i think your comment was spot on, i kinda agree)
Pineconevolved 10 months ago
DeathofSpeech you're mischaracterizing the situation. It's not a case of mocking someone for no reason until you drive them to commit murder. It's a case of responding to being bullied with threats of violence.
If no one was killing UN workers over this, then there would be no reason to do it.
jamesgaspard 10 months ago
I think both reasoned discussion and "have you seen this man?" are necessary, the former is needed to reach common ground that is desperately needed, the latter is needed to illustrate that censorship through religious zealotry is foolish and doomed to failure.
InContemplation 10 months ago
@DeathofSpeech The point of the exercise is not to win the killers over to your way of thinking through thoughtful argument. The point is basically to stand up to being bullied. That is what's being missed I think.
jamesgaspard 10 months ago
p2. my first comment was chopped up and simplified to fit the comment box. It came out blunt. I just wanted to add, I agree with most of what you addressed (as usual, rational). Your videos are always thought provoking, much respect to you good sir :P
Pineconevolved 10 months ago
I think the key difference in your comparison is the violence. If a large group of black people were behaving the way a fundamentalist Muslim does over someone saying nigger (killing random people for the purpose of silencing others through fear) ... then yes. Having a large group all start saying nigger just to illustrate that the bullying will not work, would be perfectly warranted.
jamesgaspard 10 months ago
@jamesgaspard
"Having a large group all start saying nigger just to illustrate that the bullying will not work, would be perfectly warranted."
Because slapping someone with a word that was used to dehumanize them, till they get so pissed they beat your head in, makes sense to you?
The solution is simply this...
Express your opinion on a subject... defend your opinion with reasoning and evidence, and then make an actual effort to listen to opinions other than your own when presented equally.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
i don't think it is about not being bound by the quran laws. it is about those laws being outdated and incompatible with today's standards. if the book said do not eat pork, love thy neighbor as mo would then there would not be a need for such change. but the laws say to kill the non-believer and other things that people take to heart. those orders need to be highlighted and struck from the pages of history.
does that mean mockery is justified? no but that is definitely not on the same...
44jackhammer 10 months ago
@44jackhammer ...level as the radical muslims. i will not be participating because i find the means to be vulgar but i do support the message.
44jackhammer 10 months ago
@44jackhammer
You do realize that Islam, Jusaism, and Christianity all share the same common root, and all include the same laws you mentioned.
Christians get through the day without killing anyone because they choose which of those antique laws to observe or interpret them as obsolete or contemporary to a past time.
...and what a lot of Christians don't grasp is that most Muslims and Jews do exactly the same thing... filtering scripture to comply with a more contemporary standard.
DeathofSpeech 10 months ago
I agree with your reasoning, but I don't think people are burning korans just to be offensive. Like draw Mohammad day this is just a massive grass roots movement meant to send the following message: Will are not afraid of your threats of violence, freedom of expression is not up for negotiation. Period.
jamesgaspard 10 months ago 14
@jamesgaspard You're free to express yourself all you want. No Muslim is taking that from you. No law has been enacted to hamper your free speech. So I'm curious what it is that you are "expressing" if you're only doing this because you're free to. It's free expression to call a black man a nigger, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do it just to show him that he can't take away my freedom of expression.
GrapplingIgnorance 10 months ago 19
@GrapplingIgnorance That's a false equivocation and you know it. Stating a racist slur--with an appalling history of slavery and discrimination attached--without cause and burning a book that is inherently illogical and immoral, and that has caused (and still is causing) much of the same, in the face of a very real and rabid mob are two completely different things. Fuck you, thanks.
CalebAlucardtheHagan 10 months ago
@CalebAlucardtheHagan wow, way to burn a bridge
Pineconevolved 10 months ago
@Pineconevolved Were you going to make a discernible point, or are you content with one-liners?
CalebAlucardtheHagan