BRAD WARNER debates GENPO ROSHI about BIG MIND™

[werspansio]

how about a collaboration with brad and genpo? genpo as creator and brad as destroyer.

[Barahist]

Pathetic

[OlPapaGuedhe]

What I really want to know is how Brad was able to do this for 7 1/2 minutes without just cracking up the whole time.

[moonwaterzen]

@everyone part 2 Just look at Brads videos, check out his books and you'll see he does not force any dogma on you. He always says find your truth. I looked at some of this GR guys videos and felt like I needed to shower immediately! He carries himself with such all knowing superiority, and speaks like a cross between a therapist and a fortune teller. He speaks of "Higher Selves" Can't even a Buddhist novice see through this delusion? BM=BS New age hypnosis, wait 'till reality crashes the party.

[moonwaterzen]

@Everyone who feels compelled to belittle Brad for this: Is it just me or is it not expected that people who view this might have some understanding of Zen? Clearly if this video offends you, you just don't get it; Zen, Brad, enlightenment, the whole point of it and least of all this Genpo Roshi guy! "Be lamps unto your selves!" (some guy ah, Buddha said that) Brad is not selling you his plan for enlightenment, merely pointing out how foolish that notion is. (with foolishness).

[squamish4244]

Brad Warner is a jackass, but Genpo's Big Mind process, which I have no doubt has benefited many people on the path, has become vastly overhyped and commercialized. It has also apparently failed to resolve certain internal conflicts of Genpo's, as his recently exposed five-year history of affairs with several students and resignation as abbot of the Kanzeon Zen Center has demonstrated. So Brad may still be a jackass, but maybe he saw some issues with Genpo years ago that others did not.

[XGnodabX]

there's a video which Genpo says, "my technique will give you a lifetime worth of meditation experience in only 2 hours!" the problem with that, is that a lifetime is a lifetime, and two hours is two hours. can't make a lifetime two hours, anymore than you can watch 60 minutes in 30 (well, today with a DVR it may be possible, but I digress).

[LSD108]

Water which is too pure has no fish.  Ts'ai Ken T'an

[BesottedlyDialecticl]

I was really hoping to hear a debate between brad and genpo. event though the debate here was at best one sided or worse digital libel i can see that the real issue here is probably unconscious jealousy. not a lack of substance but a presence of strong bitterness

What is the debate? Seriously I'd still like to hear it. I really don't know what the problem is with big mind and if their is really a problem with it I will stop my practice of it. Hell i'll even let others no what's wrong with it.

[LSD108]

A monk asks a master “What is the meaning of Genpo Roshi bringing Big Mind Process to the West?”

The master said “The oak tree in the courtyard.”

Then the same monk asks the same master “What is the meaning of Brad Warner bringing Hardcore Zen to the West?”

And the master said “The same oak tree in the same courtyard.”

[Stratus128]

Personally, I think that there is nothing wrong with Big Mind.. except that it's not a part of Soto Zen practice. It's a valid internal dialogue process. Calling it Zen, and selling it as enlightenment, is just marketing and it does a disservice to "real" Zen - which requires no special technique. Brad, as a traditional Soto Zen guy, has every right to take offence to somebody else's overblown marketing techniques and use humour to express it - but hey I haven't even licked the fish :-)

[shaggytheshaman]

@Stratus128 Yes, you understand. I used to want to swallow the fish. Then I grew up. I could care less about swallowing the fish now. That's not what Buddhism's about.

[interwoven222]

I have realized eternal awareness through Genpo's Big Mind Process....so I know that anyone discounting him is full of shit :)

[nightflight83]

Brad Warner is overrated.

[AlreadyUnity]

Genpo roshi's Zen is a relative bargain for only hundreds of dollars a pop... All of the Zen Masters and teachers I've met teach that it takes absolutely everything you are. I think Brad is being a bit unfair... I can see how convenient Genpo roshi's product is for the everyday consumer, and not everyone who likes the Sound of "Zen" is going to devote 100% of themself to practice so his service may be the only viable "Zen" for some.

[tcoreyb]

@AlreadyUnity : Warner's point is since Zen is traditionally (and demonstrably by 1000s of years of example) available to any human being, for no monetary cost (note I said MONETARY cost, not at NO cost of any kind), then.. it just may be harmful to one's own practice to think that spending any money will speed it up. In fact, maybe that goes against the spirit of Zen in the first place. "Convenient" is the key here, but so is the fee. Zen and satori shouldn't be treated like Video On Demand.

[AlreadyUnity]

@tcoreyb

Hmmm... guess you missed the irony. S'okay.

Dana (giving) is actually a historical aspect of zen, and not just because temple upkeep costs money and monks need to eat food too. While all things are empty of intrinsic value, sacrificing money means letting go of our time, effort, and they various indulgences we could have spent that money on as well as any attachment we might have to the money itself.

[AlreadyUnity]

@tcoreyb Still, the Zen Center I go, even though it is far from wealthy, since I am fairly poor they have on occasion not only waived the fee for retreats (there isn't a fee for regular practice) and even fed me when I needed it. Of course, I'm not a freeloader so I donate as much as a can, but money is not a prerequisite to practice there with the guidance of excellent teachers. I wonder if Genpo Roshi's sangha would do that for me...

[jjgipson]

Despite the legitimacy Warner's criticisms may have, his attitude and lack of grace are far from ideal for a zen practitioner seeking a humble Buddha-nature. For long-time meditators like myself (and Warner), an hour and a half on Youtube trying Big Mind should be an quick blip in a lifelong devotion to practice, and hardly something to get upset about. For those inexperienced in meditation, Big Mind should cause no harm- just don't tell your Buddhist friends that you've been enlightened. ;)

[tetherball23]

hilarious. nice to see a sense of humor from a dharma teacher. I don't think he is being mean-spirited, he probably got a rude, pompous response from Genpo based on how he is mocking Genpo. He even makes fun of himself at the end. Good stuff

[EnvyAbomination]

In a deeper sense, I think he's just actually teaching us that debates about what enlightenment and zen is is just useless, since it's not dependent on words or ideas.

As Master Seung Sahn said before, "If you don't attach to words, all teachings teach one point." or something like that.

[aphat]

It's official. Brad Warner is a silly goose.

[mujaku]

At least Brad has the right intuition that Big Mind is Big Bullshit and Big Bucks for Genpo. Genpo's Big Mind is nothing more than the 5th skandha, i.e., vijñâna which can lead to 10 false enlightenments (see the Surangama Sutra). Genpo's Big Mind is not the same as prabhâsvaracitta or clear light Mind.

[extremeusername]

Correct.

[iamelf]

Thanks for wasting 7:38 minutes of my life. Seriously mr Warner, if you have a problem with the guy, you should put together something cohesive and compelling instead of something childish and annoying. This offering doesn't help your credibility at all.

[DjFocus]

Kens techniques took NLP influence look up Dr, Richard Bandler. Ken has a weird creepy energy and you seem to have to much tension. It is rare to come across that very clean and warm spiritual energy that the Dalai Lama generates. A man can meditate for a thousand years but not many got to the Truth I believe. Wilber is trying to be too intellectual and you are trying to hard to remove yourself from the mysticism. What you guys do and teach works, but other non Zen methods would do just as good

[Santiagojimenezb]

It´s amazing how closed up your mind can get with zen practice sometimes. This guy´s perspective on zen is very deceiving. I wish people wouldn´t base their identities on zen, believing that "my zen is the real zen" and then freaking out at the possibility that all that sitting was just a waste of time. Well my friend, finding out how wrong and stupid we are is liberation, maybe this is your chance to see the carrot you are chasing with all your sitting. Peace

[AlreadyUnity]

@Santiagojimenezb

Zen is the Japanese transliteration of the Chinese word Ch'an. Ch'an is the Chinese transliteration of the Sanskrit word dhyana, which means "meditation". The word "Zen" literally means meditation...

[sam97212]

No sock monkeys were actually harmed in the making of this film.

[skzombierain]

dharma combat at its best!!!

[buffduff]

I think Big Mind is fine--basically it's voice dialogue/hypnosis.

Big Marketing on the other hand is not something I'm in favor of. Especially Big Marketing and then blaming the "postmodern seeker" for "misunderstanding" the very direct claims that Big Mind = instant, permanent enlightenment as meaning that Big Mind leads to instant and permanent enlightenment.

I also find the 5-5-50 "fundraising" a bit odd, if not very likely to lead to corruption.

Thanks for keeping things light.

[MaBu888]

Big Mind has crucial differences to voice dialogue, the biggest being that it points to the '.'

[thelotus8]

Funny I never thought I would see a student of Zen act like he was a jealous kid over one of his Dharma brothers success in spreading the Dharma in a new and powerful way. You of all people should understand that Zen cannot be put into a box .Big Heart Big Mind is the real thing.

[XGnodabX]

hah! There is a difference between jealous and dismissive.

on top of that, if a salesman was trying to defraud you, wouldn't you want his ass put on the spot by other people that know what he is selling is a joke?

[tonygem]

Hey, Brad, go after the old tired-out poops of zen teaching in the US. I think you should check out San Francisco Zen Center next. They're really a scary bunch of old farts.

[santiagueri]

I did Big Mind (is not 50.000 it cost me 700 for 2 days) and it triggered an opening that continues still (I've been in meditation for a decade by the way) You might be a little bit attached to tradition thus missing the point (maybe you are being hypnotized?) I wander if you really know what the process is about and if you are willing to question your own notion of enlightenment. If zen is about being one with everything (even big mind) you shouldn't be afraid. Video is funny tough ;)

[MilesD3]

$ 50.000 for 5 days, 5 people attending. Personal instruction by Roshi. He calls it 5-5-50 Retreats. Although, apparently, "Genpo Roshi has decided to cut this donation amount by 50% to $25,000 per person".

In his defense, let's also point out that if you go to one of his regular seminars, and you have no money, they'll let you in anyway.

[wearealltubes]

Awfully nice of them to let me in free - to their thinly veiled "come to our expensive retreats to find out about all the cool stuf that we are just going to hint at now" seminar. I'll stick to sitting, thanks.

[shaggytheshaman]

@santiagueri That is not what Buddhism is about. It sounds to me like you are attached to the experience Big Mind opened up. Whether or not Big Mind is real, it's not what Buddhism is about. Brad Warner sometimes comes down hard about this point. Smoking marijuana can cause genuine insights, but that's not what Buddhism is about. Do not become so attached to the experience you have had, whether or not it continues. That is the opposite of Buddhism.

[Santiagojimenezb]

@shaggytheshaman Yes, getting attached to an experience is not what we look for in Buddhism (though I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I was attached) I just question what seems to me as BW's close mindedness. "Big Mind is a help to give the student major insights, inspire and encourage but for a serious Zen student the hard work of real embodiment of the Buddha Dharma can’t be skipped" (Genpo Roshi).. Anyway, I think is decieving when people claim to know what Buddhism is about.

[shaggytheshaman]

@Santiagojimenezb I totally know what you mean -- Brad Warner can be extremely close-minded when it comes to things he doesn't like. I feel this way about his position on entheogens, which can generate extremely powerful and real "spiritual" experiences. But he is right that they are not Buddhism. Just wrong that they are useless. A lot of people equate enlightenment with Buddhism. It's not. It's useful, but if you get stuck there, you're doing the opposite of Buddhism. :)

[HardstyleBassHoles]

@santiagueri there is no enlightenment. reality is enlightenment in essence so all people are essentially enlightenment itself. thats what zen is. i would love to know "Big Mind" but i dont have that much money to get something that is already there...

[Santiagojimenezb]

@HardstyleBassHoles sure

[HardstyleBassHoles]

@Santiagojimenezb thanks for the input

[rgainsburg]

Ha ha! This is good. Genpo has such a silly voice (and says silly things). And Brad has a good voice (and says good, right things). That says a lot. But Brad has a smelly foot. Brads foot is smelly. It smells. Theres a bad smell coming from Brads upturned, religious foot. Genpo is the silly, pompous, greedy sock, and Brad is the righteous smell. Ha ha!

[duggydb]

Brad Warner is the wall

the wall is the universe

the universe is the wall the wall is Genpo Roshi

Brab Warner is Genpo Roshi

'Zen' Bitchy Ping Pong

0-0

[phaila]

Brad Warner misses the point. But by deep inference, his ignorance points to the truth.

I'd question whatever lineage he connect to in permitting such a trashy defense of Zen.

[doubtboy]

And the truth is...?

Personally I question $50,000 instant enlightenment seminars as expressions of Buddhism. But maybe I'm just weird.

[MaBu888]

More like 700. I did big mind via youtube... worked... an opening 'took place'.

[EFunkProductions]

@phaila No matter what discipline you are studying, assuming that there is a fix that will happen in a matter of hours or even weeks is just stupid. I fully understand the whole hearted desire to have something like that.  However, as an individual that has fought with chemical addiction in the past, I know that it is a lifelong journey to make positive choices and live compassionately that will bring me to my goal of living without the use of substances. Do the work. You'll be glad you did.

[squamish4244]

@EFunkProductions You speak the truth. From what I have read, Big Mind has its uses, especially for beginners, but anyone who thinks it is going to give them a "quick fix" is being extremely naive. I speak as one who has undergone a hellish struggle with chemical addiction and I have been shocked at the strength of the terror, rage, and grief that have poured out of me through my withdrawal/recovery process. It is indeed a lifelong journey to live with wisdom and compassion, but worth it.

[jamesejudy3]

@phaila

***LOL***

[noe2106]

Great "Voice Dialogue" through Sock Monkey ;)

[felixj555]

Dude!!! you TOTALLY told yourself! woops ...... I mean Genpo! ;-)

[mujaku]

Genpo has taken many liberties with the notion of Mind as it is used in traditional Zen and especially in Mahayana Buddhism. He presents it in a psychological context -- but Mind is much more and is to be distinguished from mind associated with thinking, thought and sensory awareness of which we are all familiar.

[tooleydeviljuice]

i was thinkin "ooh, now do ken wilbur!" and i'll be damned if he didn't fit it in before it was all over.

mucho props, mr. warner!

[msphina]

"I know dog poop doesn't taste like tootsie rolls."

Brad, you rock my little Zen socks off.

Did he really say that you didn't have any right to debate him because you have less experience?

[kasuskasus]

Haha, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. :P

[imeddy]

Don't worry, they're both wrong anyway ;)

[taolad]

and did Genpo really say that you don't have enough experience, touting his own?

As a 20 year Zen practising ignoramaus, I say someone should very Zen-fully kick him in his Dharma nuts.

I understand all too well his wanting to get away from the Asian trappings and thinking "It" has to be on cushions and what not. But I've seen him in action, and he has some real inflation issues going on. Isn't the creepy Wilber association a dead giveaway?

[taolad]

I read your SG post. I'm really surprised that you kinda miss the mark as much as he does. A skillful teacher CAN bring an awareness of "Big Mind". Egregious to BRAND it.

Zen teachers have talked about this for centuries, compassionately cutting through our entanglements. You can wake up quickly to the truth, and spend a lifetime refining that awareness. "Enlightenment after Enlightenment."

Say there is enlightenment - huge mistake. Say there isn't - ditto.

No sudden, no gradual schools!!!

[MaBu888]

Big Mind was a term used before Genpo Roshi.

[CleverDjembe]

HA.

ha.

[creationofself]

"enlightenment" What is that? I agree and disagree with both you - Brad - and BigMInd. To think anyone of you are valid...perhapes valid to those who agree with you. Every night as I am dozing off I know the awnser to ultimate reality. A corbinemonoxide woodchuck tells me. He's such a swell chum. To bad I wake up and he's gone. None of it makes any sense so all of it makes perfect sense. Unfortantly you got to do this and mus'ent ever do that but if you do always make up for it by reading this.

[sanlascur]

This is really just you showing your dislike and making fun of something you disagree with. It would be interesting to see a real debate since you do seem to have arguments against this approach.

[aspiringbodhisattva]

OMG you're SOOOO funny. LOL.

[SecondLotus]

Awesome, Brad! Keep it up. I love you and your books. It is nice to have someone cut the crap like you and Noah do. Rock on.

[strangerthananything]

you are so freaking great. I love how you do your thing!

[JishinShugyosha]

You can not trade mark and sell Dharma. I missed meeting you at the Great Sky Sesshin at Hokyoji, But my teacher Zuiko got a kick out of you! Any way, I read your books and enjoyed them. -Deep Gassho :)<

[TasiaBrooklyn]

50 grand...WTF, Genpo Roshi?

[messner1967]

Big Mind, Big Wallet.

Rock on, Brad.

[cwalwanis]

I've just read your blog as I haven't heard of all of this that is going on with you and him and it sickens me that there is now get enlightened quick schemes just like all of the two minute meditation or no meditation at all ones that I've seen. On a positive note, this strengthens my desire to become a monk so that I can share the TRUE dharma with all beings.

[endesigner]

Lovely voice during intro

[teletubeyagain]

Note perfect, sheer genius. The definition of it, frankly.

[Araqnidm]

awesome!! you should totally keep this up, make it a weekly thing!

[tearjohndown]

This absolutely made my freakin' day. Great video, Noah... er... I mean Brad...

[MrG00dbytes]

LOL! I guess you're not a fan of Big Mind.

Now where's that damn TM symbol on my keyboard, it's not Big Mind without the TM symbol...

[Raphneckone]

hardcore zen tv...fuck yeah!

[200lbsGorilla]

Your Books are better...

End of debate!