You're entire arguement is based on the assumption that freewill exists you dont seem to understand sure it may feel like your choosing but your choice isn't free you here of the old debate nature vs nurture? well both of those are out of your control you dont choose your genetics and you dont choose what kind of enviroment you were raised in
Yes. And I think by assuming God exist there's a strong case to be made against free will. Because God is all-knowing so every step and decision you make is allready pre-determained in the mind of God. So he rewards or punishes you for decisions he allready knew you would make. Its so paradoxal and I think Free will somewhat shoots itself in the foot by the very definition of God. (Omnipotent,all-knowing).
If God gives us Free will that somewhat undermines his own Omnipotence. Because it must imply God doesn't allready know what decisions you're going to make in order for it to be free will.
You say: "God's not standing there with a big lightning bolt to hit me in the head and zap me if I all of a sudden say that I'm an atheist and don't believe he exists."
No, according to YOUR religion, God WILL zap you if you say you don't believe he exists! He'll be so pissed you'll suffer a much WORSE fate than mere execution by lightning. (You won't be that lucky.) Nope, your God, the very essence of LOVE, will torture you TRILLIONS of years by fire. Vindictive, hateful Love—what a joke!
Umm..Remember god created EVERYTHING so therefore god created hell. Kind of an idiot thing to do to create a place and then have some fraction of yourself tortured so people don't have to go to that place so they won't have to be tortured by a being(the devil) who you created in the first place. And remember the reason jesus came down was original sin. And what was the original sin you ask? Oh that was when god punished ALL MANKIND for something they did BEFORE they understood right and wrong...
actually hell is a place.. but its the absence of God that is what hell is more specifically. so Jesus died so people don't whave to be without him... but of course you would chose to be without him anyways... he is not SENDING you to hell for it. its your freedom of choice. you chose to be in hell (away from him).
If you can call it free will to choose not to believe, when God tortures you forever if you don't choose him, then that explains how your mind can be so deluded by religion in the first place! If your invisible deity said "Worship me or not; either way, you're fine by me!" then THAT would be free will. A robber holds a gun to your head and says it's your choice whether or not to hand over your money. No rational person would call that an honest choice. Amazing how you Christians rationalize!
Actually, I'd say it IS a choice. You are perfectly welcome to choose NOT to believe in God. In fact, if you don't believe God exists, then why are you worried about an ultimatum from a non-existent being?
1. Seems you didn't read. If you're forced to flatter someone or he'll kill you, then it is not a choice. Get real. Only a defensive religious rationale that disrespects reason would call "Worship me or DIE!" free will. 2. It is not ME who is worried about an ultimatum from an imaginary deity; that's YOUR belief, not mine. 3. I don't say there is no god, I only say the BIBLICAL God cannot possibly exist—because no being can be the very essence of goodness while doing the evil the OT God did.
Other and last thing which MANY people get so wrong. The stoning laws, such as killing disobedient children and homosexuals was MOSES law. The OLD covenant. Jesus brought forth a NEW covenant and completed the Old by being the messiah! Don't people actually read from page 1 to the end anymore, do we just pick the bits we hate and not read the whole lot. If you read just one part you are a hypocrite because your taking it out of context without knowing if its still in rule! Old covenant has ended
I agree Richard. Many Christians look at us like we are infidels for even HINTING that the Old Testament was made complete in Jesus, but it's the truth.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only son". I am fed up point blank of all these people running around, misreading and labeling christians and just grouping a huge amount of people under one faith with labels. Its very uneducated to do such a thing. Its like saying there is no free will and trying to use the bible to prove that when you have proven you have free will by choosing what to believe. God does know all he doesn't choose all. Aka he knows your faith but doesn't choose it.
I'm not sure what you don't understand about the hypocrite thing. If an atheist and a homosexual killed a homosexual, they would be equally guilty of that crime. However if neither of them killed a homosexual only the christian would be a hypocrite because only the Christian claims to be following the bible.
It's like if there was a drug dealer and a cop, and they smoked weed together, they would both be committing a crime, but only the cop, as an enforcer of the law, would be a hypocrite.
And no, a your god doesn't smite people (anymore?) but that would be a little clearer as to what he wants people to do. Other than from an ancient work of fiction.
If you choose walk into the shower, you could slip and die. If you choose to walk into the street tomorrow, you could be hit by a meteor.
You pretty much in by your own admission claim that your beliefs are hypocritical, that's your fault and no one else's. It's like if you are using circular logic and you blame us for asking you circular questions. Of corse sense only christians can ask for forgiveness, so you can through out the whole bible anyways, it's not like you have to follow it.
Take hitler, as a Christian he likely did ask jesus for forgiveness, so he would have accepted christ and went to heaven, but all the Jews he killed would rot in hell. What kind of perfect entity would allow something like that to happen?
First few seconds into the video and I do have to call you on one thing "God knows but we still have a choice, I can choose to be this, or choose to be that" well, yes, in the time that it is occurring it will seem like choice, but if God knows the outcome, then the outcome is inevitable, and regardless of what path you choose you're still going to end in the same destination, meaning you only have the choice of how to GET there, not where you end up. There's still a hole.
Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome AIDS is cause by a virus. It has nothing to do with "moral" or "immoral" behavior. According to the UNAIDS Epidemic Report 2007 there are 2.5 million children with AIDS. There is no relationship between "sin" and disease anymore than there is between earthquakes and "sin".
"Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome AIDS is cause by a virus. It has nothing to do with "moral" or "immoral" behavior."
Ummm...what is the main way in which the virus is spread? Is it not through sexual interaction? That doesn't mean that everyone with AIDS got it because they committed sin, but promiscuous sex is the main factor in its spread.
This sort of bigotry and ignorance is why people dislike some Christians. AIDS can be transmitted sexually, through blood transfusions and people can be born with AIDS. None of this necessarily has anything to do with your concept of "sin". AIDS is a disease not some sort of magical punishment against Gays, hemophiliacs, or Africans. A lot of AIDS cases in Africa are children who got the disease from their mother or women who got the disease from their husband.
Gah! Please read what I write before you post replies:
Thorzon: "That DOESN'T mean that everyone with AIDS got it because they committed sin...."
You simply judge me and jump to conclusions, the same thing you are accusing me of. I NEVER said AIDS is nothing more than a curse from God on homosexuals! You just ASSUMED that I believe that and you called me an ignorant bigot.
Reality the highest rate of AIDS in World is in South Africa ,yes originally it was the Gays but currently there is a huge increase in unprotected sex resulting in 100% in disease in the last year apparently in the UK
God knows all our futures, our decisions, thoughts, actions - they way we will go in our lives - with or without HIm. Just because He knows all this, doesnt mean that He controls our freewill - God sees all and knows our individual destinies, because He see out futures - we dont see that, and we dont know our future - there is always opportunity for us to individually come to Christ for Salvation - while we still have the opportunity.
This argument is nothing new... the whole free will and the omniscient godhead. We choose to go to heaven, we choose to go to hell. I'm waiting for the parent/child analogy.
Please... there's a difference between the direct consequences in your examples and the "consequences" of not being a Christian. One, we see. The other... we wait on like little kids wait on Santa Claus.
Yes... but AIDS has been a demonstrated consequence of some unhealthy behaviors. Hell, on the other hand, has not.
Morality based in fear is not morality. Faith based on fear is not faith. Consequence, and the understanding of consequence (cause and effect), is a logical understanding.
If God, being omniscient, knows each of our theological beliefs or lack of at our deaths, then regardless of free will it is still wholly contradictory to an omnibenevolent deity.
You can't work your way around that by saying people send themselves to hell. If God knew prior to our creation that most of his beloved and treasured children would end up being tortured eternally then why would he create us and how can he retain his omnibenevolent title?
wait, when did we started talking whats right or wrong?
you not stoning gay people is right thing. stoning them would be wrong.
the difference is I dont stone them I dont want to(like you dont want to) and there is no holy scripture telling me to do so(but to you there is that holy scripture).
thats the difference.
about free will, I will repeat what i said in my video. yes i am on repeat when it comes to that one :)
Hi. Sin is rebellion and disobedience to God. We have all sinned against God - we are sinful by nature. The wages of sin is death - there is penalty for sin - God is Holy and completely righteous - sin to Him is unacceptable.
By sending Jesus to die for us, to take the punishment for our sins, leaves those who accept Christ as their Savior, as guiltless - totally free, without burden or shame or guilt for anything they have said or done - its all forgotten. He loved us to do that.
There is still punishment for sinners who are without Christ. The Old Testament laws demonstrated that sin is punishable by death - that has not changed. We, as sinners (rebellers against God) deserve death. But God has given us a way of escape from our sin - a perfect sacrifice was made for all our sin - Jesus bore all of it on Himself on the Cross - it was an act of love to save us from what we deserve. He has taken the punishment for us, on our behalf, so we can be free.
The main thing is that God created us to be with Him, not against Him - for those who will not accept Jesus' sacrifice for their sin, they will burn in the lake of fire for eternity - its God's Judgement and His Just punishment for our sin. He created us and owns us - something that a lot of people just will not accept.
lol really?Ok,prove it!I want you to choose not to believe in god for ten minutes after you read this comment.Don't worry you can choose to become a Christin after the ten minutes is up.If you can do that,i will believe that believing is something you choose.
You're entire arguement is based on the assumption that freewill exists you dont seem to understand sure it may feel like your choosing but your choice isn't free you here of the old debate nature vs nurture? well both of those are out of your control you dont choose your genetics and you dont choose what kind of enviroment you were raised in
SHFUTS 3 years ago
Yes. And I think by assuming God exist there's a strong case to be made against free will. Because God is all-knowing so every step and decision you make is allready pre-determained in the mind of God. So he rewards or punishes you for decisions he allready knew you would make. Its so paradoxal and I think Free will somewhat shoots itself in the foot by the very definition of God. (Omnipotent,all-knowing).
DinkyDoeDoe 2 years ago
If God gives us Free will that somewhat undermines his own Omnipotence. Because it must imply God doesn't allready know what decisions you're going to make in order for it to be free will.
DinkyDoeDoe 2 years ago
... and it all started with CapnOAwesome
4545gino 3 years ago
You say: "God's not standing there with a big lightning bolt to hit me in the head and zap me if I all of a sudden say that I'm an atheist and don't believe he exists."
No, according to YOUR religion, God WILL zap you if you say you don't believe he exists! He'll be so pissed you'll suffer a much WORSE fate than mere execution by lightning. (You won't be that lucky.) Nope, your God, the very essence of LOVE, will torture you TRILLIONS of years by fire. Vindictive, hateful Love—what a joke!
jhfgjfdgsujh 3 years ago
no no thats not God
God is the one who DIED so YOU WONT go to hell ... remember?
miglegtr 3 years ago
Umm..Remember god created EVERYTHING so therefore god created hell. Kind of an idiot thing to do to create a place and then have some fraction of yourself tortured so people don't have to go to that place so they won't have to be tortured by a being(the devil) who you created in the first place. And remember the reason jesus came down was original sin. And what was the original sin you ask? Oh that was when god punished ALL MANKIND for something they did BEFORE they understood right and wrong...
cidvisions 3 years ago
actually hell is a place.. but its the absence of God that is what hell is more specifically. so Jesus died so people don't whave to be without him... but of course you would chose to be without him anyways... he is not SENDING you to hell for it. its your freedom of choice. you chose to be in hell (away from him).
miglegtr 3 years ago
When you figure out why you don't believe in the rest of the religions on the planet, then you'll know why I don't believe in yours either.
cidvisions 3 years ago
actually i never said i don't believe in the rest of the religions in the planet.
im not closed minded like most christians
however i do not go against the Bible
and i do not believe parts of other religions
and i do know why
miglegtr 3 years ago
If you can call it free will to choose not to believe, when God tortures you forever if you don't choose him, then that explains how your mind can be so deluded by religion in the first place! If your invisible deity said "Worship me or not; either way, you're fine by me!" then THAT would be free will. A robber holds a gun to your head and says it's your choice whether or not to hand over your money. No rational person would call that an honest choice. Amazing how you Christians rationalize!
jhfgjfdgsujh 3 years ago 2
Actually, I'd say it IS a choice. You are perfectly welcome to choose NOT to believe in God. In fact, if you don't believe God exists, then why are you worried about an ultimatum from a non-existent being?
Thorzon 3 years ago
1. Seems you didn't read. If you're forced to flatter someone or he'll kill you, then it is not a choice. Get real. Only a defensive religious rationale that disrespects reason would call "Worship me or DIE!" free will. 2. It is not ME who is worried about an ultimatum from an imaginary deity; that's YOUR belief, not mine. 3. I don't say there is no god, I only say the BIBLICAL God cannot possibly exist—because no being can be the very essence of goodness while doing the evil the OT God did.
jhfgjfdgsujh 3 years ago 2
Personally I think you are made Gay but should NOT good there because the fruits of Gay Lifestyle are terrible
wwwFamilyPrideOrg 3 years ago
God is All Knowing so He Knew that Gays would be Gay and would be going to Hell so Gays NEVER stood a chance in the first place.
wwwFamilyPrideOrg 3 years ago
Other and last thing which MANY people get so wrong. The stoning laws, such as killing disobedient children and homosexuals was MOSES law. The OLD covenant. Jesus brought forth a NEW covenant and completed the Old by being the messiah! Don't people actually read from page 1 to the end anymore, do we just pick the bits we hate and not read the whole lot. If you read just one part you are a hypocrite because your taking it out of context without knowing if its still in rule! Old covenant has ended
RichardE40K 3 years ago
I agree Richard. Many Christians look at us like we are infidels for even HINTING that the Old Testament was made complete in Jesus, but it's the truth.
Thorzon 3 years ago
watch?v=K-ZIV2FrHQI
Kyberspawn 3 years ago
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only son". I am fed up point blank of all these people running around, misreading and labeling christians and just grouping a huge amount of people under one faith with labels. Its very uneducated to do such a thing. Its like saying there is no free will and trying to use the bible to prove that when you have proven you have free will by choosing what to believe. God does know all he doesn't choose all. Aka he knows your faith but doesn't choose it.
RichardE40K 3 years ago
I'm not sure what you don't understand about the hypocrite thing. If an atheist and a homosexual killed a homosexual, they would be equally guilty of that crime. However if neither of them killed a homosexual only the christian would be a hypocrite because only the Christian claims to be following the bible.
It's like if there was a drug dealer and a cop, and they smoked weed together, they would both be committing a crime, but only the cop, as an enforcer of the law, would be a hypocrite.
Kyberspawn 3 years ago
Oops, by the first homosexual, I meant christian.
And no, a your god doesn't smite people (anymore?) but that would be a little clearer as to what he wants people to do. Other than from an ancient work of fiction.
If you choose walk into the shower, you could slip and die. If you choose to walk into the street tomorrow, you could be hit by a meteor.
Also, free will doesn't exist.
Kyberspawn 3 years ago
You pretty much in by your own admission claim that your beliefs are hypocritical, that's your fault and no one else's. It's like if you are using circular logic and you blame us for asking you circular questions. Of corse sense only christians can ask for forgiveness, so you can through out the whole bible anyways, it's not like you have to follow it.
Kyberspawn 3 years ago
Take hitler, as a Christian he likely did ask jesus for forgiveness, so he would have accepted christ and went to heaven, but all the Jews he killed would rot in hell. What kind of perfect entity would allow something like that to happen?
Kyberspawn 3 years ago
if bella or i choose not to stone homosexuals it just makes us human, with no divine moral guidelines.
if you choose to not stone homosexuals it makes you a human, who is going against the will of god, and who still belives in his existence.
again, let the bible go and hold on to jesus. that way you stop being hypocritical, and still have a spiritual teacher to guide you.
gautamagaroo 3 years ago
First few seconds into the video and I do have to call you on one thing "God knows but we still have a choice, I can choose to be this, or choose to be that" well, yes, in the time that it is occurring it will seem like choice, but if God knows the outcome, then the outcome is inevitable, and regardless of what path you choose you're still going to end in the same destination, meaning you only have the choice of how to GET there, not where you end up. There's still a hole.
WW3 3 years ago
Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome AIDS is cause by a virus. It has nothing to do with "moral" or "immoral" behavior. According to the UNAIDS Epidemic Report 2007 there are 2.5 million children with AIDS. There is no relationship between "sin" and disease anymore than there is between earthquakes and "sin".
happyjesus123 3 years ago
"Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome AIDS is cause by a virus. It has nothing to do with "moral" or "immoral" behavior."
Ummm...what is the main way in which the virus is spread? Is it not through sexual interaction? That doesn't mean that everyone with AIDS got it because they committed sin, but promiscuous sex is the main factor in its spread.
Thorzon 3 years ago
This sort of bigotry and ignorance is why people dislike some Christians. AIDS can be transmitted sexually, through blood transfusions and people can be born with AIDS. None of this necessarily has anything to do with your concept of "sin". AIDS is a disease not some sort of magical punishment against Gays, hemophiliacs, or Africans. A lot of AIDS cases in Africa are children who got the disease from their mother or women who got the disease from their husband.
happyjesus123 3 years ago
Gah! Please read what I write before you post replies:
Thorzon: "That DOESN'T mean that everyone with AIDS got it because they committed sin...."
You simply judge me and jump to conclusions, the same thing you are accusing me of. I NEVER said AIDS is nothing more than a curse from God on homosexuals! You just ASSUMED that I believe that and you called me an ignorant bigot.
Thorzon 3 years ago
Reality the highest rate of AIDS in World is in South Africa ,yes originally it was the Gays but currently there is a huge increase in unprotected sex resulting in 100% in disease in the last year apparently in the UK
wwwFamilyPrideOrg 3 years ago
God knows all our futures, our decisions, thoughts, actions - they way we will go in our lives - with or without HIm. Just because He knows all this, doesnt mean that He controls our freewill - God sees all and knows our individual destinies, because He see out futures - we dont see that, and we dont know our future - there is always opportunity for us to individually come to Christ for Salvation - while we still have the opportunity.
xenewarrior 3 years ago
You're making me want to respond in a video...
just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in. :)
thebuzzmonkee 3 years ago
This argument is nothing new... the whole free will and the omniscient godhead. We choose to go to heaven, we choose to go to hell. I'm waiting for the parent/child analogy.
Please... there's a difference between the direct consequences in your examples and the "consequences" of not being a Christian. One, we see. The other... we wait on like little kids wait on Santa Claus.
thebuzzmonkee 3 years ago
Some consequences are not immediate...AIDS for example. It can take a long time for symptoms to appear, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
Thorzon 3 years ago
Yes... but AIDS has been a demonstrated consequence of some unhealthy behaviors. Hell, on the other hand, has not.
Morality based in fear is not morality. Faith based on fear is not faith. Consequence, and the understanding of consequence (cause and effect), is a logical understanding.
thebuzzmonkee 3 years ago
If God, being omniscient, knows each of our theological beliefs or lack of at our deaths, then regardless of free will it is still wholly contradictory to an omnibenevolent deity.
You can't work your way around that by saying people send themselves to hell. If God knew prior to our creation that most of his beloved and treasured children would end up being tortured eternally then why would he create us and how can he retain his omnibenevolent title?
idroppedoutofcollege 3 years ago
wait, when did we started talking whats right or wrong?
you not stoning gay people is right thing. stoning them would be wrong.
the difference is I dont stone them I dont want to(like you dont want to) and there is no holy scripture telling me to do so(but to you there is that holy scripture).
thats the difference.
about free will, I will repeat what i said in my video. yes i am on repeat when it comes to that one :)
BellaTheHappyLoser 3 years ago 2
It's really more about hyporcisy. It's wrong to be a hypocrite, right?
So, because i am a Christian, I am wrong either way, stoning or not stoning. That was my point...in your eyes I would be wrong either way. :)
Thorzon 3 years ago
''It's wrong to be a hypocrite, right?''
as long as you call yourself christian and you do not stone gay people, its a good thing to be :)
BellaTheHappyLoser 3 years ago
Hi. Sin is rebellion and disobedience to God. We have all sinned against God - we are sinful by nature. The wages of sin is death - there is penalty for sin - God is Holy and completely righteous - sin to Him is unacceptable.
By sending Jesus to die for us, to take the punishment for our sins, leaves those who accept Christ as their Savior, as guiltless - totally free, without burden or shame or guilt for anything they have said or done - its all forgotten. He loved us to do that.
xenewarrior 3 years ago
There is still punishment for sinners who are without Christ. The Old Testament laws demonstrated that sin is punishable by death - that has not changed. We, as sinners (rebellers against God) deserve death. But God has given us a way of escape from our sin - a perfect sacrifice was made for all our sin - Jesus bore all of it on Himself on the Cross - it was an act of love to save us from what we deserve. He has taken the punishment for us, on our behalf, so we can be free.
xenewarrior 3 years ago
The main thing is that God created us to be with Him, not against Him - for those who will not accept Jesus' sacrifice for their sin, they will burn in the lake of fire for eternity - its God's Judgement and His Just punishment for our sin. He created us and owns us - something that a lot of people just will not accept.
xenewarrior 3 years ago
Nobody chooses what they believe and don't believe.
worldlystone 3 years ago
worldlystone: "Nobody chooses what they believe and don't believe."
Oh yes, being a Christian is very much a choice I have made consciously, 33 years ago.
Thorzon 3 years ago
lol really?Ok,prove it!I want you to choose not to believe in god for ten minutes after you read this comment.Don't worry you can choose to become a Christin after the ten minutes is up.If you can do that,i will believe that believing is something you choose.
worldlystone 3 years ago