Tropes vs. Women: #4 The Evil Demon Seductress

[AlpacaNYC]

I like watching your vids, and though I don't even agree with most of your views, I like what you said near the end, we dudes DO have a perception of women being manipulative and deceitful. Maybe I think like that due to media and preconceptions, then again TV news of famous celebritie's wives divorcing for money don't help. Just wanted to point out that it was a fair point you made.

[AFLoneWolf]

I know you're focusing on supernatural characters in this vid, but you missed one of the worst characters ever conceived. Nevermind the fact that it sets back feminism about 50 years.

Jessica Simpson's Daisy Duke in the 2005 Dukes of Hazzard remake. I think she displayed all the intelligence, independence, and personallity of a cardboard cutout.... Much like Simpson herself.

[assassin6637]

I love Poison Ivy, but I see where you're coming from. I also hate the fact that Poison Ivy is the Evil Demon Seductress and the Straw Feminist in one....ugh. -__-

[bloodorangeicecream]

you showed a picture of the 'siren' from doctor who - but in doctor who she is a nurse and doesn't seduce men.

[feministfrequency]

@bloodorangeicecream That's true and was a fairly interesting twist (for an otherwise mediocre episode) but for most of the episode we *think* she is a siren and she fulfills the trope until they complicate it.

[snowheyoh321]

Oops I meant Men in Black, not Independence Day

[snowheyoh321]

Mars Attacks, Independence Day....if I recall correctly

[Jyagos1]

UGH! Transformers is a HORRIBLE series all around! Anyway, I believe this trope is older than dirt. The Iliad has the sirens who lure men away with a song. The Arthurian legends have women labeled as temptresses, troublemakers and tools. Even the Canterbury Tales has women vilified as "wanting to have the same power as men". I don't say this as a hater, but the tropes go further back than most people know.

[toychristopher]

It's really interesting that the male counterpart of this trope, like the incubus or the vampire, have been downplayed in recent years while the evil female seductress has only been on the rise. I think it's related that men expressing sexuality is regarded as weak and/or comic.

[cosmo111687]

That being said, though her cause is always depicted as sympathetic, her actions are never condoned and usually Batman and other Bat-family characters (like Batgirl in that clip) are the moral compass of the story and they usually set the standard for society. So if you ever express an interest in DC Comics, you'll find that a vast majority of feminist DC Comics fans gravitate towards the Batman (and Wonder Woman) books due to their complex and sympathetic depictions of female characters.

[cosmo111687]

depict her as a simple one-dimensional vamp. They tend to dig down and understand her motivations and how women have been rendered powerless in a patriarchal and intrinsically misogynistic society that only values women's sexuality and nothing else. In a way, it's more a comment against the frailty of men than the frailty of women, as Poison Ivy is typically cast as the victim. They take this to the extreme by having her unite herself with the environment, which is also powerless and a victim.

[cosmo111687]

I rather like Poison Ivy, actually (though not in Batman & Robin or Akrham Asylum). I think that on a basic level she does epitomize many of the qualities of this trope, but I think that's part of what makes the Batman mythos interesting; it tends to heighten classic tropes in early 20th century film-noir and pulp magazines to their extremes and then, over time, break them down and analyze them until you end up with a complex, sympathetic, and unique character. In Ivy's best stories they don't

[scottandrewhutchins]

Interestingly, when Neil Gaiman used Poison Ivy in Black Orchid, she complained that the only way Arkham's guards would judge her sane is if she would go down on them, so she chose to remain in her cell. I don't point out these counterexamples to refute your claims, just to celebrate a writer doing something right. I avoided B&R, but thousands more people have seen it than have read Black Orchid, which, according to Amazon, is now out of print.

[scottandrewhutchins]

One of the interesting things about the Sirens is that, if you read the Odyssey, the Argonautica, and the Metamorphoses, their call has nothing to to with men (they are calling to Persephone, to whom they are handmaidens), not is there any indication that they harm the men who come to their island. One non-sexist theory is that the men starve to death because the Sirens are immortal, but can't leave the island. Some books on mythology say that they commit suicide, but that's not in either poem

[Chellbaby07]

I love the music at the end of your videos. Always clever :-)

[CTMacUser]

The EDS has superpowers compared to the human(-ish) peers in other tropes. Only a few of the EDS examples have seduction as all or part of the her power set. Writers still treat sexuality as if it's any woman's main power, even in most cases here an EDS can directly crush her enemies, see them driven before her, and hear the lamentations of their loved ones!

[shinyalbert]

"sex appeal" as power is a kind of "power" that is dependent on MALE VALIDATION IN THE FIRST PLACE. There....fallacy sorted.

[tearsofcrocodiles]

@billythehick

Yes, male characters sometimes use sexuality as a weapon. The difference here is that it is way more common for female characters. Additionally, it is often depicted as women's ONLY weapon. Dracula has more powers than sexuality. His brides do not.

Also, like the video said, this trope for women reflects a real life viewpoint: that women use their sexuality to manipulate. Who thinks that about men?

[alliahllanas95]

You forgot one: Ruby from Supernatural(season 4)

[billythehick]

I was on board until you mentioned the brides of Dracula. What about Dracula, y'know the ULTIMATE DISTILLATION OF THIS TROPE, to the OPPOSITE end? This isn't cherry-picking examples, but is outright ignoring a directly-tangential and incredibly obvious rebuttal to the perceived double standard.

[TFYFWYA]

@billythehick

The evil seduction trope exists for men as well, that fact is true enough, but this video is not discussing man tropes. It's discussing woman tropes.

[Gilgamesh320]

@TFYFWYA .....what? The entire point of the video/opinion is that the trope is almost exclusive to women, else it wouldn't be unfair to women as exactly the same fallacies often exist when men are portrayed.

[battybuddy]

@billythehick HECK vampires as a WHOLE are kind of a tounge and cheek "using sex appeal as a weapon" thing going. And that's reguardless of gender. Practically one of the few things about vampires Twilight got RIGHT, even if they still managed to botch it.

[SazzyIsSnazzy]

Thank you so much for this. You make so many great points that I never even think about. I used to this that these women were badass or whatever when I was younger because they were using their femininity to their advantage. As I got older, I got really sick of seeing this character in movies/TV/etc. It's frustrating that turns sexuality into a weapon and that women are portrayed, as you said, as manipulative. I also know men who argue that women have more power due to their sexuality...ugh.

[mzzzhedison]

Can you imagine the uproar among men if every seductress character on TV were male instead of a female? I feel like all the characters in these movie mentions should have been men because I think a lot of them use their looks as a way to get into a girls pants, drop them, and then get the hell out of there...I know that's generalizing, but they do it all the time with females.

[patsybob]

I agree, even in the classic book "The Great Gatsby" the character Daisy the main female lead is a femme fatale although she is a horrible image of womanhood she is more complex and we do feel sympathetic for her as she is a victim of her own cowardice and lacks happiness in her own life.

[cafeterialoca]

I usually agree with your videos, but some of these I disagree with.

For example, Mystique, or comic Mystique to be precise, is actually Rogue's and Nightcrawler's mother. So there's more to her than just the seduction role.

[Ocker3]

In BSG, the first female cylon gets a Lot of character development, even having at one point another version of herself who criticizes the first version's decisions.

[MarianaPall]

Id like to know your opinion on American Mc Gee's Alice(I and II), Portal, and The Path. In fact I'd like an video about women in video games.

[patsybob]

@MarianaPall "The path" is definetly a feminist topic, I think its interesting having a whole female cast and how each have different experiences of womanhood (positives but mostly negatives). Alice (II) isnt really interesting, she just borders on insanity,denial and a very narrow glimpse of women in victorian life and attitudes. Portal again least interesting, does being a female have any significance in the game - theres no character development and no female perspective.

[RagingBear101]

I actually *LOVE* Poison Ivy. Not so much in the movies and sure as hell not in the games. In Arkham Asylum, when Batman fights her, her supposed screams of pain sounds just like something they ripped from a porn movie. I hated it and they just did that to satisfy the dudes who want to think Poison Ivy is straight.

In the comics, her whole purpose is to save the enviroment and she's willing to kill people for it. Actually, she's more plant than human and she hates ALL humans except for Harley.

[anitasseo]

excellent, as usual. dude i don´t wanna "use my sexuality" to win anything in life; i don´t want to show it off like that... besides, as you say, what they show isn´t OUR sexuality, but the female sexuality the male imaginary has created (and women approved)... so, it´s fake, it´s phony, i don´t ever believe those movie goddesses are feeling really sexual; we know that as a fact. but we keep consuming, and accepting. then we cry, cause our intimate partner won´t wait for us to come... fuck us!

[junkietomato]

You do know that most of these "Demonic seductress" characters are inspired by various ancient legends from all over the world, right? There's many legends and folklore about demons who take the form of women to seduce men and take advantage of them.

[Rion032]

@junkietomato yup, which does show that this goes beyond religion and way back to ancient times.

[fishspawned]

i also would be interested in a discussion of strong female types. i'd be interested what criteria is looked for. this may sound strange - but i highly suggest the original 'conan the barbarian'. i always thought it was incredible that the main female character seems stronger, smarter, more skillful, and in many scenes takes the role of the leader rather then the other way around. i would be curious as to your views of this film. i view it as a feminist flick. [also - james earl jones!]

[Xenomorphine]

I feel it's unfair to put the Borg Queen in this category. A portion of her introductory film made her seem that way, but it seemed accidental that Data was a male character. She was more interested in his android potential, than anything else. While 'Voyager' had her seducing Seven Of Nine back to the Collective, with some heavy subtext. Considering her dialogue over the years, She should be seen as an omnisexual character, who only (and RARELY) uses seduction when it suits her purposes.

[janeeyre1990]

Yeah, I think it goes back further than Howard, too. I can't remember in which specific essay it was, but somewhere in "The Madwoman in the Attic", Gilbert and Gubar create a catalog of the "woman as monster" trope throughout history.

[0cinatty0]

Nice one! Thanks! :) 

[squirrelspown]

(I'm male) I have watched all 4 of these things currently out

i wouldn't say I'm a feminist, but i would like to believe I treat women well, and to a certain extent believe woman are superior in most ways

I agree almost quite fully with all 4 of these things

and thank you for bringing me on to these things

however, the way you portray the people doing these things portrays ALL men as doing them

intended or not

this seems sexist within itself

I like the topics but please not all men do this

[maiafleur]

- and stereotypes. The idea that women ony use sex to get what they want is one idea that doesn't seem to go away. I will say though that SOME women do use sex as a weapon. Women who use their sexuality to make false rape accusaions and get away with it, who get child support for raping 13-year-old boys - these are women who do indeed use sex as a power tool. But of course, this doesn't make it right to sterotype all women as manipulative and dangerous.

[feministfrequency]

@maiafleur I don't think the example of the false rape accusation is a good one because it's SUCH a rare occurrence and furthermore the media in addition to victim blaming perpetuates the myth that women are *always* lying about rape in order to deceive, manipulate and punish.

[maiafleur]

I like your channel, glad to see you making more videos. I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist and for myself, I must say that I prefer fitting the traditional gender role - I think it's just my personality - but I like hearing people voice their opinion intelligently. There are a few things I agree with you about. It's true that the movies that sell are the ones that reinforce the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves. These movies appeal to people because they fit their worldview

[blythe06]

I really like the trope series you have going here. Incidentally, though, I find the term 'coed' as used to indicate a female student (as you do here referring to the Transformers movie) to be kind of sexist and offensive. It posits men as the 'normal' student, while it's the addition of women that makes an environment 'coed', rather than it simply being the presence of both genders that makes a school 'coed.' It seems very 'look how cute--girls being educated right alongside the guys!'

[feministfrequency]

@blythe06 I used co-ed intentionally because it's apart of the language of porn culture and fits right into the story of the evil seductress college student manipulating the "innocent" male student with her "hotness"

[scottandrewhutchins]

@feministfrequency I always get annoyed when journalists use the term. That was on a list of taboo sexist terms not to use when I was in school. I am so glad I didn't watch that film: the Decepticon disguised as a "co-ed" is a total rape of my childhood. In my Monster in my Pocket screenplay, none of the women among the bad monsters used their sexuality this way, and I followed Ovid in portraying Medusa as a rape victim, even though I still had her allied with the villains, as per the source.

[seanchrishayes]

I loved Mystique. I viewed her as an ass-kicking lesbian in the best possible sense. That triology was such a gay rights metaphor and she would not take second class citizenship. So what with the sexy outfit, she could imitate anything she liked.

Poison Ivy was also a PhD, who has passion for the Earth knew no bounds. She wanted to kill off people to save plant life. If done better, I think progressives would enjoy her character. It could have been good camp.

[feministfrequency]

@seanchrishayes There was nothing in the films that insinuates that Mystique is a lesbian, so although that might be included in some of the comics it didn't make it into the films. Also, Poison Ivy's environmentalism was completely villanized in the films and made it seem like caring about the environment is totally insane... It is incredibly frustrating.

[ironpatriot6]

@feministfrequency Mystique as a lesbian is a fairly recent development in comics, but I do have to add that Poison Ivy's environmentalism is demonized because she does wish to eradicate humanity. Also, the Borg Queen was not seducing Data, she was showing him she could give him a sense of touch.

[DoctorKandosii]

@ironpatriot6 Actually, nerd fact: Mystique had a female alien partner back in the comics in 1980, but the censors insisted that her lesbian side was toned down. It seemed that the comic book code demanded that lesbian, gay, bi, anti government and mixed race relationships should not be featured, or at least be played down.

[tedatlas]

@feministfrequency

No, it made it seem crazy that you would want to kill people to save the environment.

[TheInkySea]

@seanchrishayes

If you only went on the films and NEVER read any of the comics, you would have never known that Mystique was a lesbian because she was played as EYE-CANDY throughout the entire film series.

Ivy is shown as an EXTREMEST in its fullest extent; if anyone thinks her messages are what real life environmentalist want....then they are sadly mistaken...and need to meet more environmentalist. O_o

[SmileyIfSinging]

Aww....Buffy... :/ I still love it.

[RhydosTheBrowncoat]

An interesting point of view, but I have a question. Would it be any less sexist if the roles were reversed and it was the evil male doing the seducing? We've got Ted (from Buffy) as a dark father figure-type predator, the male alien in Species 2, Dracula himself, and so on and so forth. There are incubi and succubi as classic monsters of horror because they prey on trust and vulnerability. What I wonder is if it is possible to explore either without there being accusations of a sexist agenda.

[feministfrequency]

@RhydosTheBrowncoat These women are using sexuality as a weapon and it is their primary defining characteristic. If you want to use Ted from Buffy, his defining characteristic was not his sexuality at all and doesn't compare to this trope in anyway really. When men are put in the "seducing" position, their sexuality is not demonized. Plus by attempting to reverse the genders you are ignoring the fact that women's sexuality is demonized in the real world and this trope reflects that.

[fagbert]

@feministfrequency

I'm not so sure I agree with the notion that when men are put in the "seducing" position, that their sexuality isn't being demonized. Dracula certainly seems to be presented as a malevolent sexual figure.

[johnman1911]

@feministfrequency In what ways are women's sexuality demonized when they are put in the "seducing position"? Pretend for a moment that we are only talking about tropes and not the real world.

[Gilgamesh320]

@feministfrequency In almost every film that features a male vampire, any interactions with women throughout one of these films features the vampire primarily using overpowering sexuality as a tool, and it is entirely demonised. Sexually, males in high school films and many other genres are usually portrayed as desperate and pathetic, and willing to go to any lengths to win the independent and sexually in-control girl. That's pretty sexist, and a crass and distorted reflection of reality

[Lolagoestohollywood]

@RhydosTheBrowncoat Dracula in fact enjoys the *cough* wild time he has with the women he seduces, while the Evil Demon Seductress only, if anything, enjoys her power.

[gengigloves]

@PetiteOzma I think you've got a point with these specific characters in the comic book medium. However, movies (which are much more popular and reach a much wider audience than comic books) are taking more developed female characters from other mediums and applying the trope-machine to them. This is scary to a lot of people.

[spankmecold]

This trope goes waaay back, as far as the "Garden of Eden" I'd venture. Since then, women have been seen as inherently weak moralistically, seductive and manipulative. Even today, you find a surprising number of Christians, mostly straight virgin males, who have an ingrained fear of women, thinking them all secret succubi.

[TRyanArnold]

The Starbucks logo features a Siren.  It's a cheeky reference to the seductive (addictive) properties of coffee.

[CaptainWonderbra]

Not only is this trope insulting to women, it's insulting to men by constantly reaffirming the idea that men are slaves to their sexual impulses--that strong protagonists still must follow their boners.

[ohthesovietkitsch]

@CaptainWonderbra HA. Wow, well. It's certainly one kind of 'moral' compass...

[giantsfanman11]

I realize that you don't want to be biased when choosing your trope examples, but I think it's somewhat of a shame that "Buffy" is showcased so many times in this video considering how much it celebrates strong female characters much more than most shows on TV. I'd say it broke way more female stereotypes than it reinforced.

[Shenjin00]

It's unfortunate that last quote came from a horrid movie. lol

[lateralpazwalk]

I think this one qualifies for a cliché, it's way too overused.

[duckiesgoqu4ck]

I love your point on how women are taught about their sexuality. We're never told that our sexuality is our own to enjoy, we're told how we must hide it from men or use it against men or hold it as relationship collateral or something. I think it messes with a lot of women's ability to have a happy sex life.

[bmh4d0k3n]

As much as I want to mansplain away the Buffy examples (since I'm a huge fan of the show) by saying that they dealt with demons of all kinds and guises and that in the Dracula episode they were incorporating as much of the mythos from the movie they could, they're all straightforward examples that aren't subverted or anything.

[PetiteOzma]

I don't think you do justice to Poison Ivy lumping her into this trope, yes she is sometimes used this way but there's a lot more to the character then that... she's also an enviormental activist and a scientist... There have been a lot of really good stories that don't revolve around her pheremone control of men... she's a much more intetersting and nuanced character then that (in the comics and the Bruce Timm series anyway).

[PetiteOzma]

Likewise Mystique is also more complicated, as both a mutants right champion, and a woman who legititimatly explores her sexuality... (she had a long relationship with a blind woman called Desitiny and her own solo book showed her sexuality in a more balanced way), in an inversion she's also been manipulated by men seducing her for their own gain. Totally demonizing a female character because there is a flaw in how she's sometimes written doesn't do anyone any favours.

[rebelliouspixels]

@PetiteOzma -Just because a character might be "complected" does not mean they are somehow exempt from this trope. A character can embody many tropes. Mystique and Ivy, for example, are drawn (or rendered) as the evil daemon seductress countless times in many formats. On some occasions writers in the comics give them characteristics, stories and tropes in addition to this one.

[PetiteOzma]

I'm not saying it exempst them from criticism but I tend to look at and review comic books on an arc by arc basis because different creators do different things with the characters. Unlike the monster in Speicies who only exists for this trope, coming from one movie. Ivy and Mystique are not always used this way I wouldn't even say are mostly used this way in modern comics. I'm not saying it's not worth bringing up. Just that the characters shouldn't be soley judged on this aspect.

[squeakthefreak]

The thing that really freaks me out about this trope is how rapey it is. If you had a similar scene between a male 'seducer' and female 'victim' [which almost never happens], it would indubitably play out with undertones of rape.

Just another way the patriarchy hurts dudes too. Really, the idea that men are so DUMB pisses me off almost as much as the 'destructive lady sexuality thing' does.

[EvilgnomeTV]

Keep these up, I'm really enjoying this series.

[melloe]

:O everything I've ever believed about praying mantises has been a lie....

loljk but seriously makes them less interesting. great video :)

[RosefulEvelyns]

I think what bothers me most about these tropes is that they're tropes. All of the things you are mentioning could make great situations and plot lines in stories. Because they are EVERYWHERE they not only make dangerous thinking patterns but become boring and almost sickening. Using these tropes over and over just ruins it for the stories that could really do something interesting with them. It makes them unusable without ruining the story. I think that's awful.

[gengigloves]

Did you notice Ben Stein's reaction to the head of the IMF's arrest for sexual assault. He basically says, "Rich men don't commit violent crimes, and housekeepers tend to steal stuff. So, she's probably lying." Then, in a comment below, one person says that they "know" too many women, especially immigrants, who pleasure powerful men, then call it rape later. It's a human version of the praying mantis, and it pervades our society.

[kevonmartini10]

You should do a video on the harmful Madonna/Whore dichotomy, with Black Swan as a central example.

[drew335533]

I like how pretty much every problem we talk about in this conversation can be applied to the movies Transformers 1 and Transformers 2.

[feministfrequency]

@drew335533 It really does just keep popping up over and over again, it is one of the most all around racist and sexist movies ever. I was pretty horrified watching it.

[cuntscab555]

standard metaphor for being wiled into getting a girl pregnant. they don't actually kill but i suppose the fear is similar. good trope

[KamarovIK]

Of course there's also the fact that the trope portrays men as weak-willed, single-minded, and, let's face it, just plain foolish. The demon seductress is always in control of the situation, until the inevitable moment when they turn into some abomination and get hacked to pieces. I'm certainly not claiming that the trope is empowering, but it doesn't reserve the perpetuation of stereotypes for the women alone.

[demiser21]

It didn't help that you picked 2 bugs that are famous because of their females. The venus fly trap didn't cause me to think female though because it's a plant.

[lasse4eva]

@demiser21

"Venus"

named after the Goddess of Love

[jaszlesnazzle]

It irritates me that she called a black widow (an arachnid) and a venus flytrap (a PLANT!) insects.

[sleepswthghosts]

I really love this series you're doing.

[friendlysoviet]

I would also like to venture back and point out that you forgot to mention one of the other possible origins, Homer's "The Odyssey" and it's Sirens.

[lamenzies]

Have you ever noticed that movie heroes are reluctant to kill female assailants UNTIL they attempts to use their sexuality or seductive powers to put one over on them?

Says a lot about male fears I think.

[StJamesJr]

[Part 1/2] She raises some excellent points with which I fully agree. However, for every successful seductress, there is a man who is derailed by her wiles due to his loss (or lack) of intellect. The portrayal of men led around by their...hormones is essential to these plots. Seductresses almost always win in the short term (since villains rarely win in the long term).

[anarrei]

@StJamesJr That's true, and is an example of how patriarchal thinking can hurt men as well, but I think it's worth noting that the men being seduced are usually sympathetic characters, or even protagonists/heroes, while the seductress is the hated villain. It seems to be another way of dismissing constructed male-centric "flaws", i.e., "boys will be boys". Also, unlike the seductress, the whole identity of the man doesn't usually revolve around this. He is usually a full, complex character.

[StJamesJr]

[Part 2/2] As a gay man looking into the straight community, I have to add that many women DO seem to use sexual attraction as a weapon/tool. I guess I question whether this is art imitating life or vice versa. I imagine these themes existed before movies.

[suburbaknght]

@StJamesJr Shakespeare's Anthony and Cleopatra, Homer's Illiad, the Old Testament's Samson and Delilah... the theme's been here for awhile.

[suburbaknght]

Normally I love Ms. Sarkeesian's pieces, but while nothing she said here is wrong, she misses the point, hence she misses the real problem. These are stories written largely by and for men and so they explore male concerns, including a fear of female sexuality. There are many stories which distort male sexuality (the whole of female-written Gothic rape fiction, i.e. Clarissa) but they mostly been done away with. We should really be asking, "Why are so many men still afraid of female sexuality?"

[geoffr111]

@suburbaknght Clarissa is not a gothic novel. It uses melodrama to much the same effect as the gothic, but that isn't the same thing. And it was written by a man.

[latieplolo]

I'm a big horror movie buff, and this trope is EVERYWHERE. Women who use their sexuality to use or kill men are in just about every genre of horror films. I just watched "I Spit on Your Grave" and was disgusted when the main female, who was horribly raped (for about 2/3 of the movie) gets revenge on her rapists not by killing them (or putting them in jail) like a normal person, but by seducing and even going as far as to have sex with some of them. After being raped!!

[Skyzeta]

It actually goes back farther even than Tiger74147 describes, the succubus legend is one of the oldest in human history, as is the petty and vindictive love goddess (Ishtar, Aphrodite etc). Lilith is actually a translation of the Litu, servants of said goddess who in some interpretations are the sacred prostitutes of Innana who sow chaos and confusion. The succubus has been around in one form or another for the duration of recorded history. Plus consider Ishtar's portrayal in Gilgamesh.

[death2sequins]

The mermaids seemed to be protecting themselves and their territory in the trailers. Granted, the movie hasn't come out yet, but I that's how I registered it because one needs a mermaid to go to the fountain of youth, and the mermaids, do not seem keen on the idea.

[pureevilfnord]

Have you ever done a video about female characters that got it right? I would like to see at some point some examples of fully formed, three dimensional female characters.

[aboutagirl113]

(2/2) I do, however, see your point that the writers' decision to use the character in that way can be problematic. I still feel that Caprica Six's actions also reflect Baltar's character, not just her's. Also, the Six on the Armistice Station also didn't seduce the Human officer aboard in order to kill him, (the other Cylons destroyed the station) I think she was just curious about Humans. Again, I understand how the writers' decision to have her in that scene plays into the trope, though.

[ohallorandeirdre]

Good point. Although I would stress that BSG is one of the most gender equal shows I know of. Yes there are issues like that trope being used, but for the most part women and men interact in that society in a very equal way. In some very subtle way, we're introduced into a society where feminism has left its mark in a big way and does not really need to be mentioned any longer. (One day!)

[aboutagirl113]

(1/2) I'm not entirely sure if Number Six (from Battlestar Galactica) entirely fits this trope. She is the most sexual of the Cylon models, true, but I think that she's less interested in seducing men to destroy them, and more interested in experiencing human sexuality. Baltar's own sexuality had a lot to do with her being able to trick him into letting her into the Defense Mainframe; if he'd been a different man, a different approach, a different Model, would have been called for.

[superbatgirl44]

batman&robin is like one of my favourite movies because of Alicia Silverstone and her vegan/batgirl epicness

AND i love poison ivy for playing for the enviro team :)

but other than that, love the vid.

[3ssay]

Good points, though I don't think vampires are exactly a legit examples, as all vampires, male or female, are equally depicted as monsters who use their sexuality to seduce and kill humans if they do at all.

All that said, the real sexist thing about Arkham Asylum, aside from the female costumes, is that none of the female characters can defend themselves. They are rely on men (or giant phallic plants) to do the fighting for them, but they get quickly defeated when fighting for themselves.

[NethDugan]

I think if a show does this trope in isolation, or amidst a ton of sexist portrayals of women then that's a bad thing. But if you have a show with a wide range of women of all sorts, good and bad? I don't have as big a problem with it. In BSG yes Number Six did embody this trope a lot. And it can be annoying. But there was also Starbuck who was female, sexual but not a man eater. She was flawed, but so was everyone in that show. And Roslin who is bloody awesome ad a ton of others.

[MirandaZ2000]

I wonder if one of the problems is that men never seem to fully understand what is offensive about objectification. How many times have you heard a man say, "I WISH I could be a sexual object," or make a similar comment about rape? Maybe this is something with which they just cannot identify. I hope I am wrong about this.

[acf870]

@MirandaZ2000 I think in bondage men are often willing and desire to be objects.

[theowlsarefun]

I'm so happy you uploaded something new! :D

[SeanGatchell]

I've been really enjoying this series, the format you've chosen is accessible and the commenting is perfectly succinct and informative. As a male writer, I've really enjoyed seeing how to push my abilities outside the realm of the cliche, and having a voice guide my decisions in a quietly informed way. So thank you.

[jumpoutatree]

I really enjoy your videos... keep them coming.

[babileilei]

I'm reminded of this book we read in high school, Sister of My Heart, where the father tells his son (while the wife is serving him tea) that money and women are the root of all evil. It stuck with me because I didn't think at the time that any person could think that way, but of course you grow up and realize how the world can be. *sigh* Thank you, Hollywood. -_-

[invisigoth841]

Another excellent video. Xander was the first thought that popped into my head when I read the title.

I believe the use of this trope in the BtVS episode with the praying mantis lady was both purposeful and justified. She was his teacher, so that relationship was actually predatory, in contrast to the way such relationships are commonly portrayed and the way they are often perceived in real life.

[baragokuotome]

Oh of course this trope is overdone. However I would recommend the poem "Siren Song" by Margaret Atwood. It's pretty good in describing the disgust of the siren role.

[cho474chang]

I immediately thought of those exact Buffy examples when this video started.

[DWinch]

Well what about Mystique trying to get with Wolverine in X2? She's doing that because she wants some Wolverine, not because she wants to kill him or get something from him. He challenged her in the first one and she liked it. I don't think they developed that enough.

[Maverynthia]

@DWinch I think that goes on the "No Guy Wants An Amazon" Trope and a bit of the "Hot Amazon Trope" from TVTropes, which is still a bit degrading that Mystique can't stand on her own legs and thus has to fall in love with Wolverine, Klingon style.

[ohthesovietkitsch]

Slightly OT, but - it's a myth-trope that seems to crop up everywhere - where a semi-human female is caught by/falls in love with a man (she may stay and have children) but ultimately leaves as soon as she can, presented in the end as selfish/opportunistic/feeble (despite their mythical qualities)/Bad Mothers, that this trope reminds me of. Stories like The Selkie (Scottish), Hagoromono (Japanese), The She-Wolf (Croatian(?)) etc. Interested whether exact male counterparts to either trope exist?

[matrixegg]

I think this trope is not actually grounded in those insects; in times when women were even more oppressed than today, they maybe really had to use their sexuality as some kind of "weapon" not necessarily to do something evil but to get what they wanted. Anyways, your essential point is how this trope is displayed in today's media and what its effects are and you're totally right about it. There are really quite a few guys who are afraid of "dangerous, manipulative" hot girls.

[yammerz]

This trope has existed for millennia. Everything from Pandora and her box, onwards.  It's a way to demonize female sexuality, pun intended.

[Tiger74147]

Not to complicate the matter, but I'd venture to say that it goes back long before Mr. Howard. Lilith, in Hebrew mythology, is the first wife of Adam whose unwillingness to subject her will/sexuality to Adam's literally demonifies her. This is significant given how much of Western thought is predicated on ancient Hebrew/Old Testament Biblical social rules. Hell, it's still used today to justify the Christian anti-gay movement (which is ironic, considering Jesus renounced the Old Testament).

[inbach]

@Tiger74147 Right. And some people says that the snake was also a woman, but I can't remember at this moment if it's an official interpatation of the bible or not.

[PetiteOzma]

@Tiger74147 Wel Paul prepetuated the anti-gay thought in the new testement but thankfully there's a growing number of Christians who are realizing that Paul's teachings and Jesus' teachings are pretty well incompatible.

[Fallkad]

@Tiger74147 also lorelei in the german rhein mythology... and the sirens who try to lore in Odysseus... the fear of female sexuality is as old a human kind

[VigilanteNighthawk]

@Tiger74147

I'd agree. I'd also suggest reading some of the writing of the fathers of the early and middle Christian church. It's clear that they were terrified of sexuality, and many of them were terrified of women and the effect exposure to women would have on them.

[xxLilJXxX]

you forgot about succubus hell bent

[Jessethegoodwitch]

I think Buffy used the trope effectively without promoting it as the only tool that was left to women. However you are completely right, this trope is used way too much, Hollywood needs to cut back on this role.

[n1n3f0ur]

ITT: vote this comment up if you are male and like these videos.

[GinPrincess3931]

Can I be geeky and point out that the Siren you show from Dr Who isn't actually an evil seductress but an automated doctor who is healing patients?

[feministfrequency]

@GinPrincess3931 ya, absolutely, she is a play on the mythology, but it's worth mentioning that for the vast majority of the episode she fulfills the trope and it's not until the end that it's subverted.

[Nightmare060]

@feministfrequency Which is a nice twist from a storytelling perspective if you ask me.

[PetiteOzma]

@feministfrequency Isn't that a good thing then? Playing on our expectations and showing how wrong we are? I haven't seen that episode of Doctor Who but that sounds like a positive. And that's what Doctor Who often does... like in the episode with starship Britian, the humans are the real monsters not the tenticals that are attacking people. So here it sounds quite positive.

[CorianderCivar]

I get super happy every time one of your vids shows up in my sub box! Even though the content is a little depressing sometimes :/

[inbach]

Okay, after watching it: It goes way back to the greek mythology. When you talked about the mermaid in POTC it remind me of the sirens: They seduced sailor-men with their beautiful voices and made their ships crash into the rocks.

[inbach]

Just did a little "yay" when I saw you uploaded. It's not fair to leave us in this intelectual drought...:)