Universal Healthcare Debate 6: Art Kellermann (6/12)

[moorester1010220]

Americans don't give a fuck about other Americans. If the problem isn't on their doorstep, it isn't a problem. The free market has failed, but that's blaspheme to actually admit it.

I think any of the politicians against the health care reform bill should simply give up their government health care, obviously it sucks to be fully insured by the federal government.

[alfamax4562]

Dr. Kellermann (a great Dr.) presents really good points. It is the job of the Fed. Gov. to participate as a "traffic cop" to keep Health Care Systems (Hospital owners) and Ins. Co. accountable and honest. But it is well known that many "federal officials" benefit from exchanging favors (all of them legal) with these companies to sustain the status quo. It sounds to me that there should not be health care reform, there should be GOVERNMENT REFORM. More oversight, less cronyism.

[syghur]

Okay, I've watched all of these pro-universal health care speeches and have yet to hear anything even resembling logic. They all talk about making health care more affordable, but there are no specifics as to how this is to be accomplished. Their only other argument is "Well... everyone else is doing it." So obviously we should too.

Anecdotes != evidence.

[JavaBlues]

@syghur Anecdotes does not equal evidence? Good, toss out Piper's entire lecture.

[syghur]

@JavaBlues That still leaves Cannon and Stossel.

[lucentis2]

to DJguy28 ;

this ER doc is pathetic. I've seen people on medicaid come to er because it's freee! first thing they ask about is fooood and voucher for a cab after the visit.How about brain death people in icu lingering around for weeks because someone else pays the 6-7 figure bill. health care is a business like every other one. no profits no inovations, no jobs, higher costsless afordability! period!!

[johndoe77774444]

conclusion: hospital care gets better and specialist care gets worse in universal healthcare and those middleclass uninsured ppl dont have to lose their house

[SuperGuitarman69]

@johndoe77774444 Bullshit!!!

[gunsandbullhorns]

These medical socialists are pathetic. An economist who can't defend his position on economic grounds and TWO DOCTORS (obvious vested interests).

I hope somebody on the opposition mentions the REASONS why health-care is so expensive is because of PROHIBITION and the AMA's MONOPOLY. Medicare & Medicaid are unsustainable, but they only not the biggest problem.

We are paying MONOPOLY PRICES because Government granted a MONOPOLY to the AMA and PROHIBITED drugs that ought not be prohibited.

[JugiterpetoVerum]

"The problem is not government interference with the healthcare industry, the problem is healthcare industry interference with government."

Interesting, a Doctor speaking about a change in government policy... Does this sound Ironic to anyone else?

[bobdole57]

If health insurance companies are the problem, don't buy health insurance, pay for the health care yourself.

[mangravy2000]

People on the right pick a plan and get your people moving on it. We have to change and it's going to cost money anyway you slice it. We need to decrease healthcare costs to save american businesses and this country. USA products cannot compete by paying more in healthcare coverage to their employees.

[BORNTWYCE]

Just as the FREE MARKET allows you to compete for car insurance or buying a cell phone to get the best quality & cheapest price, so the FREE MARKET will bring down the cost on health insurance if the PEOPLE ON THE LEFT would allow ACROSS STATE COMPETION, but they won't. They push Single Payer only for CONTROL & REGULATION. Conservatives have a much better plan.

[collide4scope]

the free market lets the greediest people win.

[JugiterpetoVerum]

Wrong. In a free-market system, people recieve income for helping others. A person only gets paid if someone is willing to pay them in order to recieve benefits themselves.

In a government-run system, people get paid by voting for politicians who are going to steal other people's money for them.

Free-market incentive is to help other's; government's incentive is to be greedy.

sounds like you've got it backwards buddy.

[ArgueEverything]

That's rubbish. In a free market, capitalist system, the people who earn the most (i.e. capitalists), earn money due to their ownership of capital. The vast amounts they earn are not by virtue of "helping others" (your words), but by owning capital.

[Cdrillkill]

Wat he a;so did not tell USE .. is those poor ppl could apply 4 help paying those bills n probly did ... sick of ppl talking out their asses!

[Craftz16]

lol and ill enjoy me restrict less government held medicare

[Craftz16]

dont treat your government like a corporation.if you want to be left alone go live on a fucking island. humanity cant sustain itself with everyone defending for themselves. thats why you guys had the cold war and any other wars. conservative minded people like you should just shutup before you cause more harm with your absent minded ideology.

[Questfortruth86]

There's no getting through to you socialist tyrants. You guys just want to control and regulate every part of everyone's lives. Do me a favor, stay the fuck in Canada.

[bobdole57]

Doing whats best for me usually involve doing whats best for you.

If I am selling a product, it is in my best interest to sell it at a reasonable price.

[Craftz16]

well you expect every person in America be as rational as you? there are going to be in trouble beyond their control and will need fortunate people like you to help them. Stop being a fucking selfish prick and care about someone else.

[Questfortruth86]

"Well you expect every person in America be as rational as you?"

So what should we do? Have the government enforce "rationality"? So if the government deems smoking "irrational" they should fine them, or even imprison them? What if the government decides that making profit is "irrational," should they imprison entrepreneurs?

My definition of caring about someone is respecting them enough to make their own decisions, and not treating them like retarded children.

[Questfortruth86]

Hey, I think you're being irrational; I think you should be fined and silenced immediately.

[Craftz16]

well why dont you drive on the left hand side of teh road? or carry a gun to school? really theres things you have to follow which many of you complain about and theres things where you can do on your own but just take advantage of it.

[Questfortruth86]

"or carry a gun to school?"

What an absurd strawman, I'm not even going to waste time trying to explain the difference between the freedom to smoke and the "freedom" to bring a gun to a school.

"your telling me that your just lazy and do not want to be responsible to take care of yourself."

I'm telling you to fucking worry about yourself, and leave me the fuck alone. Why is this so complicated for you socialist lunatics? Honestly, I have parents, and they're not the government.

[Craftz16]

really is any scenario hypothetical?people setting up mock lynchings in protest of a black president would be hypothetic scenario to eh? oh wait it did happen. You forget that your supporting a corporation that is in charge of your health. Will you learn after you are denied medical attention from a "history of medical problems"? i rather be insured than be "HMS insured" because i know i will never be denied.

[Questfortruth86]

In England and Canada they have lotteries. NICE, the English healthcare service, measure the "value" of an individual's life, and then determines what treatment is "appropriate." If you're a smoker, over-weight, old, you get denied medical treatment. I'd rather have a corporation in charge of my health over the government any day. The government can't even run the mail/school systems.

What do a couple of idiot racists have to do with this conversation whatsoever?

[Craftz16]

lotteries really? im canadian and i dont seem to have won any lottery to get an arthoscopic surgery? maybe you should get your facts straight. and about all those conditions you listen.. any type of surgery that would need to be done to fix those illnesses would mean you would get denied.. why because it costs too much money for them. So get your facts straight

[Questfortruth86]

Half my family lives in Canada, near Ontario; but thank you for your "facts."

"Why would you want to pay for someone who is lazy and hurt their own lives?"

Exactly, I don't. But at the same time, that person, who has freely chosen to smoke, should be able to get healthcare, and should not be sentenced to death by government bureaucrats. People should be free to kill themselves, and free to save themselves. I don't want the government forcing me not to smoke. Why is this so hard for you libs?

[Craftz16]

the ontario government is still providing healthcare to smokers living in the province, but they are now looking at charging the tobacco comapnies with the cost of treating these people smoking. smoking leads to second hand smoking. Yes theres pollution around the world but what causes less devastation to the economy? destroying every truck and car or not smoke a cigarette? your telling me that your just lazy and do not want to be responsible to take care of yoruself and others.

[Craftz16]

the first two examples you gave made you very hypocritcal. Why would you want to pay for someone who is lazy and hurt their own lives? smoking and being over (for the most part) is their own decision and lifestyle and we should offer them any sort of healthcare at all but the companies who made them sick should be accoutable for.

[Questfortruth86]

It's really not complicated at all. I want to be able to do whatever I want, without the government telling what I can, or cannot do. And at the same time, I don't want to pay for other people's lifestyles. The greatest freedom in the world is the freedom to be left alone.

[Craftz16]

that same mother could deny you of medical attention for your leukemia and decide a magical figure should cure you of yuor illness. Does that sound fair to you as the child?

[Questfortruth86]

Oh, a completely hypothetical situation made up by your own imagination, where you try to prove that governments must save us from ourselves. If the child and parents want to pursue another approach, they should be free to do so. However, if the child doesn't agree, then the authorities should step in. If a person in this country wants to kill themselves, it's not my responsibility to save them, nor should the government take from me in order to save that lunatic.

[Craftz16]

really you tell that to all those foreign doctors and engineers who have to spend thousands up thousands of dollars who to get the same or lower degree that they already got. This country you are forced to take a job not directly but by means of hunger for wealth and fame. That is why you got these drug dealers, ponzi schemers, big bonus excutives and politicians.

[Craftz16]

but in this case when i think i deserve more to get an MRI done because i broke my back from skateboarding than a 50 year old man who sick from the pollutants from the factory and will get it because i have more money. Is that sound fair to you? A guy is forced to work in minimum wage and works hard while im a well off son who can do whatever i want knowing money will protect me. Who will regulate these health insurance companies. i do not want ANY company to profit from my health or others.

[Craftz16]

im flattered that you take me as an elitist where I am really a blue collar civilian who does not have the aquired knowledge to completley cure myself and also take care of the enviornemnt as well. That is why the government spend money on research to find ways to protect their citizens.

[Questfortruth86]

What should I think? You claim that people don't know what's in their best interest, so government should force them into action. Like the mother who forces us to eat our peas.

[Craftz16]

I am saying quite a bit of people dont know what is for their own good. Like criminals, like abusive spouses and especially abusive parents. For us it is difficult for us as individuals to stop it because we do not hold the law but the government can use their power to stop this abuse, which is more common than you think.

[Questfortruth86]

"I am saying quite a bit of people dont know what is for their own good."

Oh, I see, you and like-minded people should decide what's best for us simpletons. No thanks buddy.

[Craftz16]

what would be worse having to survive a fatal disease and live the rest of your life homeless (dont think the lady will win the mother of the year for that one) or just fight till you yuo cannot. I understanda mother will do anything for a child but having a child stay alive to live the rest of their lives in misery is not what she rreally wants. You are just thinking short term and i apologize for ridiculing your argument but lol i would not want you as my RRSP advisor:P

[Questfortruth86]

We all agree that our healthcare system needs to improve; but we disagree on how it should improve. Do we want move government? Do we want government decided who lives and who dies? Do we want medical innovations to slow down, or stop entirely? Medicaid is 85 trillion dollars in the hole. Or do we believe that costs are high because of the government, and therefore believe we should cut them out entirely. This is what we're debating; no one is saying that our healthcare system is good.

[Craftz16]

Then what is the difference between having the canadian government and our citizens than then american counterpart? is it really fair to let parents decide all do proper medication needed for their kids? is it their right to deny their kids medication on the belief that god is going to take care of them. When will we draw the link of fantasy and reality?

[Questfortruth86]

I don't know what you're getting at.

[Craftz16]

yeah but if your a father at age 50 with 2 kids and an umemployed wife. This situation is common for most americans because of the aging baby boomers ontop of the fat diet americans eat which means my argument would be more persistent. You as a single person can afford a private healthcare but hte families can only wish they had a government who can protect them from not just terrorist but also illnesses and diseases.

[Questfortruth86]

Do you think that mother gives a fuck about the bill? When her son's about to die does she consider the fact that she may lose her house? What would that mother say if she lived in Canada, and they told her that her son must wait for treatment; or that they don't have the required technology to save him. Such an absurd argument.

[Craftz16]

wtf? what if this women does lose her house and the son survives. Who the fuck is going to pay for the food, shelter, medicare, and education for the rest of their lives? Your argument just makes me laugh

[Questfortruth86]

What happens when that mother is insured by the state and her son dies needlessly?

I'm glad my arguments make you laugh.

[machngunjoe]

THis guy is right... I broke my arm got and bill for $5,000. I will never pay that bill thats for damn sure.

[TimeWarp66]

The reason prices are so high is because we don't have a free market.

[DJguy28]

Wrong! The reason why prices are so high is because there is no Universal Health Care for all citizens. A free market is about greed and profit, not healthcare.

[TimeWarp66]

Spare me your marxist slogans you stupid little know-nothing. You know nothing about free markets and the profit motive. You're just babble bullshit from a Michael Moore movie.

[davids2244]

Lets say you are correct. do you beleive that modern technolgy was produced here for noble causes or for profit? Research what you are saying on universal, 90% of most countries that have universal health care are close to bankrupt ,if not bankrupt due to the burden and poorly ran sytems in place.

[Sivels]

lold, you have no understanding of prices, that is the most idiotic commeny I've seen in a long time

[Psychosmurf547]

@DJguy28 What's wrong with greed and profit?

[bluefootedpig]

@machngunjoe Glad to know that you value your arm for less than 5,000 dollars.

[ehsanul]

"Would you rather be in debt and alive or insured and dead?"

I'm looking to be alive and not in debt. That's my whole point. I'm not saying that emergency care should be done away with, that's stupid. Obviously people would rather be in debt and alive than dead. But as obvious is the fact that they would rather not be in debt, and stay alive. Which is what would be the case with universal healthcare.

[TimeWarp66]

Your right to a waiting list is NOT a right to healthcare.

[ab1tchslap]

Did you guys know that recycling is actually bad for the environment?

[1Natecore]

wait...this guy starts off saying he treated uninsured patients, but all I keep hearing is that the gov't needs to run health care b/c the uninsured can't get help.

[ehsanul]

Well, the point is that when someone is dying, hospitals HAVE to provide care, in the case of an emergency. But, the uninsured people then have to pay for it, and it ruins their lives. That's just one point of course, there's also the fact that you only give health care to the uninsured in emergency, but otherwise, they are denied.

[TracyII77]

As an army brat at the age of 20 with government isurance, I was denied coverage except in an emergency, because the only "military" or approved doctors in the state of Michigan work at the VA hospitals which are overrun with veterans who get access before dependents. I am now without insurance for the second time in my life and spending less on my healthcare than when I had private insurance. And I have several chronic conditions.

[TimeWarp66]

You have to be aware of the fact that the reason so many people are uninsured in the first place is because government steps in and prevents competition, thus eliminating almost all means of cost control. If we had a truly free market healthcare system, very few would go uninsured.

[ab1tchslap]

This guy is an idiot. Has anyone noticed that the people who support universal health care only use rare horror stories and false statistics to persuade people. It's ridiculous. The government already has too much control as it is.

[Chainedorlo]

It's gotten funny, now.

[hiredhelp]

Brilliantly put especially in comparison with the previous robotic-like joke of a speaker. Everybody are using way to much anecdotal evidence though.

[OgLoC2]

he just used rhetoric and rare emotional circumstances to move people into thinking that government power hungry politicians can run Health Care. How is that when certain new methods to improve diseases by drug companies are rejected. BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT INTERFERES...not the other way around

[girzwald3]

The caring side of medicine is failing because its all about money. A free government run clinic will have more reason to treat you for things that you don't need or run unnecessary expensive tests to make more money. Or fraudulent tests and procedures. its already happening now.

And will the government check for this sort of thing? They might nab a few people....spending more tax dollars in the process. But most will go unchecked.

[scj16]

Sooo right. wow.

[gloryoski]

This guy is great. He needs to go speak all over the country.