Justice and Mercy!!! Why Believe in Religion (5 of ...)

[hofisito]

lol ok, so one last post to wrap things up. I'll prolly stop here so you can get the last word I guess if you'd like.

The Bible says that Jesus "bore our sins" when He died on the cros. Therefore Jesus carried the sins that we did, so it's as if Jesus did the sins and not us. hope that helps??? God couldn't just forgive everyone without that sacrifice, cuz then He wouldn't be just anymore.

[hofisito]

So the flood??? well... in theory, our actions brought "sin into the world" and everything became sinful because of it. I see animals being selfish or murdering all the time (given even the possibility that they're moral beings, which isn't necessarily true so justice wouldn't even apply to them).

And lastly... ppl can be wrong about their moral intuitions. Hitler was wrong...

Just cuz you intuit something doesn't make it right. It's right cuz it's right, hopefully you'll intuit right.

[hofisito]

And How can you be blamed by "intuiting wrongly"?

Well when you're bad, it can distort your moral intuition compass. The bible calls this a "depraved mind."

Rom 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

That's also why there's direct revelation from God in the Bible to guide our moral intuitions from going astray.

of course, that's in theory...

[Woootloops]

If people are born in sin, then there compass is distorted form the start. Therefore, they cannot be blamed for their actions, and cannot be sent to Hell.

Also, if a God exists and is omniscient, omnipotent, and all good, then the Bible isn't the way God would have revealed himself. I would be talking to him right now. He would appear before me every time I needed him. No one would disbelieve. The fact that this isn't the case in the world, refutes Christianity.

[Woootloops]

Animals murder each other because they have to eat. Why don't you ask God why he created a world where living beings have to devour each other to survive.

[Woootloops]

And on intuit, you say Hitler was wrong, but how do you know? How do you know that he is wrong and that you are right? How do you know that I am wrong and you are right. You don't know. You have no way of knowing. All you have is a feeling that is contradicted by other people's feelings.

[Woootloops]

What you just said, is the definition of vicarious redemption; of scapegoating. Jesus took the blame so we didn't have to. That is injustice. We didn't get what we deserved according to God. It looking like Jesus committed the sins and not us is irrelevant. He didn't, we did. Us not being punished for them, would be injustice, and God forgiving us after Jesus's scapegoat is not mercy.

There is no mercy, there is no justice, and God's versions of mercy and justice are on par with Hitler's.

[hofisito]

Lol again... justice and mercy are LOGICALLY EXCLUSIVE. That means it can't logically make sense for them to both happen at the same time.

ie how can someone get something he deserves and not at the same time?

So it might appear logically off, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

The Christian idea is the only religion that offers the possibility of both being true

[Woootloops]

No, it might not appear logically off, it appears logically impossible. And "that doesn't mean it isn't true" is your response.

The Christian religion doesn't offer the possibility of justice and mercy happening at the same time. It doesn't work.

What you should be saying is that the Christian religion is the only religion to be stupid enough to propose that because everything about it is logically impossible or empirically wrong or non-existent, that it is therefore true...

[hofisito]

lol hey my old friend... :)

well... again I'm not gonna argue TOO much but....

Basically I don't think God could be anything. God is good and that's objective, so in any possible universe, God couldn't have been different (at least that's what I believe). God, in any universe, could never do a holocaust cuz well... that's evil! and not good...

and lastly... I guess you can disagree but I think Justice and Mercy are good things that and "all good" God should have.

[hofisito]

Well here's the thing about being justice and mericiful at the same time.

Justice and Mercy are logically mutually exclusive. so... in order for them to co-exist, they have to in sort of a paradox (which pans out to something not being logical in the Aristotilian sense)

But... if you study eastern philosophies where paradoxic logic (non-Aristotle) is possible AND rational, then it can um... make "sense"

Here's a quote from Taoism "the Tao does nothing, yet leaves nothing undone."

[Woootloops]

"The Tao does nothing, yet leaves nothing undone."

This is not a paradox. The Tao leaves nothing undone, because he never had anything to do.

Jesus's death on the cross was not an act of mercy, it was a vicarious redemption; a scapegoat. Mercy would have been God simply saying that he forgives us. There was also no justice in Jesus's death because he was being punished for crimes he had not committed. In fact, his death was an example of injustice.

There is neither mercy nor justice in God.

[hofisito]

idk, that Tao quote seems like a paradox to both me and my east asian philosophy professor. I guess look up other eastern philosophy quotes?

[Woootloops]

You only have something to "get done" when you want to do something. If the Tao didn't want to do anything, then he never had anything to get done, and hence, he never left anything undone.

[hofisito]

And well... how do I KNOW that justice and mercy are good??? and therefore necessary of God...

again... that brings me back to non-natural intuitionism.

I "intuit" the nature of mercy and justice as good cuz God gave me this intuition to know what is good and evil (I think this sense of intuition is necessary if He's going to punish us for doing evil). We have to have a way to know what's evil if we're going to get blamed for it!

[Woootloops]

Hitler didn't know that killing all of the Jews was evil when he did it. He thought it was righteous. How can he be punished? He didn't know.

My intuit tells me that the Flood was wrong. Either I am right because this intuition is coming from God (Which contradicts you) or I am wrong and I do not have a way of knowing good from bad, and I cannot go to Hell because I didn't know what I was doing was wrong.

[Woootloops]

When you say that God could never do a holocaust because that's evil and not good, you are right there, saying that morality is independent and above God. You have redefined morality with that. God is no longer the standard, he is obeying the standard.

You can't have it both ways. If God is the objective standard of morality, then he may commit a holocaust if he likes, and it would be good, simply because he thinks it is. In fact, he already has: The Flood, something worse than the holocaust.

[hofisito]

pretty valid point

but... there's possibly a third alternative???

It might be that God and morals are interdependent? I could expand on that later. Refering to ideas by ppl like Kant or C.S. Lewis

lol and the flood is NOTHING like the holocaust. The flood was a punishment for our sins. the flood was justice and not a moral crime

Is prison an evil practice? no... it's justice. A judge isn't evil for administering a punishment and God isn't evil to flood the earth if it deserves it.

[Woootloops]

God said it was a just punishment for every living creature on Earth to drown and die because humans were ignoring God.

Hitler said it was just punishment for the Jews to be gassed and killed for being Jews.

My moral intuit, which is just my opinion, says that both are immoral. However, to both Hitler and God, there is justice.

But oh wait, my moral intuit is really objective morality. I'm right then. You're wrong. I felt it in my intuit, it is therefore true. (See a problem there?)

[hofisito]

In the mean time... the interdependent idea thing might make more sense with the Bible's idea that God is never changing in His being.

If morals weren't interdependent with God, then God COULD change.

Or... I guess you could come up with a fourth alternative where morals are still completely dependent on God's actions but since God can only be a certain way by His own definition (not changing), then morals can only be one way in any universe (objective again)

[Woootloops]

If I am understanding what you mean by interdependent, which is that morals and God depend on each other, but are still separate, then this idea is not compatible with the Christian God.

By saying that morality is interdependent with God, you are saying that morality has power over God, you are saying that God is not omnipotent. It doesn't work.

[hofisito]

that's the age old question... can God create a rock He can't lift???

another nice thought experiment is... can something be unlimited without being limited? cuz if something unlimited couldn't be limited, then there's something it couldn't do (be limited), and it therefore couldn't be unlimited.

ie... I think you're going into a realm of logical "nonsense." in the strict philosophical definition of the worse "nonsense." something easy to do with a subject like God

[hofisito]

I think the fourth alternative is a better explanation that I have to study more.

God doesn't change so neither does morality.

[Woootloops]

Yes I would agree that terms like unlimited and all knowing are nonsensical, but that's not a problem for me. It's a problem for you because you believe in a God who is defined with these qualities.

[Woootloops]

So someone else being punished for a crime you committed is justice? WHAT!? Isn't that the antithesis of justice?

And besides that, on what basis can you say that in order for God to be all good he HAS to show justice and mercy? Once you define good as what God says, which you have done by making him the objective standard, your definition of good is simply God's will. Justice and mercy are irrelevant. God could have committed the holocaust and it would therefor by your definition be good.