The Queen Mary is barely making it, and even what's left of her grand public spaces makes her far superior to anything afloat today. It costs a bloody fortune to keep a ship as a museum, and this ship is modified in the extreme--and badly so. It's sad to see so many old ships go to the wreckers these days, but the France/Norway was finished, and by this posting, is but a memory and who only knows how many Indian workers were injured or killed in her dismantling.
Feh, repainted and Renamed in a failed attempt to hide the truth. NCL was too cheap to rebuild her and didn't even give anyone a chance to save her to become a museum ship like she truly deserved. NCL's top execs pissed all over history just to save their more than high enough profit margins so they can all buy themselves Yachts and Bentleys.
What a horrible ending for a ship. Nothing like her will ever be forged again. Don't bother comparing her with these modern floating shoeboxes, it will never be the same.
Actually this Homeric guy is rumoured to be an NCL subversive. He's one of Veitch's crew. Goosens warned about these people who caused massive virus attacks on his website and emails, to suppress the truth about the Norway.
Notice how Homeric professes knowledge about the ships but has no channel or website of his own to back it all up. It's all part of his "cover".
Hahaha, I bet you're a virgin, you seem to spend all your time on here commenting about ships when it's obvious you know nothing at all. I bet you haven't given any maritime history lectures like Rueben Goosens - someone you might learn a few things of - but that wouldn't be too difficult in your case considering your complete lack of knowledge!
And you spend a great deal of time ignoring how other maritime historians completely ignore poor Rueben. an instigator, a provocateur..who gets off on being heard than on what he is saying. Doesn't say much for you listening to him. But you certainly have taken his lead. Your homemade video is right up there with his usually disproven rants.
You did no favors for the Norway..you only made a bad situation worse.
So where is your website discussing maritime history if you are not an NCL plant, then prove it. I have documented the destruction of the Norway with nearly 200,000 views on my videos. You have done....... what ?
They're doing a great job. The Indian breakers are a class act. They're slicing that junk up like a joint of meat.
Has anyone got some more scrapping pics? There's only one You Tube Channel posting them... loads of "tribute" slide shows but not enough breakers yard action.
Not nice slicing a ship like the France, but the ones acting are not DIRTY BROWN people but employes of DIRTY BLONDE people who use POOR people in dark places like this one for their own dirty purposes. Best regards, Heil ADOLF. ALEC
I need to warn all you tube viewers about a guy calling himself Homeric9. He poses as a maritime expert or amateur ship enthusiast, but he doesn't have any videos of his own or websites to back that up.
Instead it is believed that he may be a plant from NCL/Star/Alang Scavenger organizations spreading propaganda to counter the illegal disposal of the SS Norway-Indy-United states etc etc. MASSIVE virus attacks have been made on websites trying to tell people the truth about these ships.
@titanastic shut up dude. if your guna have a debate with someone then have your debate. but dont try to use propoganda on us. ya know who used propoganda? hitler...lol
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Yes, they are really beginning to torch the crap out of her now. There are some good scrapping pictures on You Tube.
Good riddance, I say. The Indian breakers are doing a fine job.
I can't wait till they make some really big cuts, like demolish the bridge or slice the bow off. It will keep us all in masturbation material for weeks!
jeesus, if you masturbate over cut up ships then you need alot of help (apart from the psychiatric treatment you're currently undergoing for having a tiny dick), although I can understand how a kid could turn to other sources of pleasure when he cant satisfy a woman...
You're actually showing your own immaturity by stooping to the level of personal attacks.
If you disagree with a comment then you have the choice of saying nothing or presenting a reasoned opposing argument if you want to maintain your own credibility.
"immaturity" ? coming from some sad little bastard who pulls his 3 incher over some asians dismantling a ship.... I could stoop any lower than that pal... IDIOT!
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
I like asians trashing ships. So what.
You appear to have an obsession with penis size. That's totally unrelated to the discussion, yet you've brought it up twice already. Enjoy your penis fetish.
I think I'd rather have an obsession with ship destruction than a penis fetish. Hope you can control it.
Sad to see the end for a fine ship. I saw it a few times at Southampton in the 'Sixties, and then for the last time maybe five years ago, same place. Bye Bye 'France'
In spite of an Indian Supreme Coourt order that the "Blue Lady" not be touched... they are obviously looking the other way as the leacherous scrappers tear the ship apart. Already they have removed her magnificent mast... and the added Presidential Suites/and upper suites built on top of her deck. Corruption, Greed, and Destruction of the enviroment run rampant in India.
I don't think anyone with a respect for history likes to see a grand ship succumb like this. But these vessels are hideously expensive to maintain - and they often fall victim to tacky post-operational schemes. Ocean liners were never destined to survive after their service lives ended. The money just isn't there.
And what money is offered to 'save' ships such as these is often linked to economically dubious leisure schemes that fall apart soon enough - and prolong the indignity.
The Queen Mary richly deserved to be saved, and those concerned cannot be praised too highly. But this ship was exceedingly fortunate. The Japanese have also done well to preserve the Hikawa Maru at Yokohama. The ex-France is impressive, but does not represent a classic - from either a structural, artistic or engineering standpoint. She has been barely surviving since 1973 (and much altered since her heyday - not for the better).
LOL. You obviously do not know your ship history. The ship, despite her changes, is still a classic. Barely surviving since 1973? Good grief. She is the absolute reason for the modern cruise era, and she is also the most successful ship ever sailed. No ship has had her history with such success. Go read up on your maritime history.
Interesting viewpoint. If the modern 'cruise era' is your bag, then fine. Let's build more of these square -box floating amusement parks. However as an enthusiast of dedicated ocean-liners I do not see their tacky conversions as any 'success'. The old Queen Elizabeth mercifully succumbed before this fate fully overtook her. I would dearly like to see the old France saved - but only to be restored as a monument to her pre-1974 heyday.
Even with her last refit, I'd hardly call the SS Norway a square-box floating amusement park. Having sailed on her twice, she would hardly fall into the category of any of the cruise ship I've sailed on since. There is hardly any comparission. Although I will agree her first refit was better than the second, she still did not resemble your modern day cruise ship.
Agreed. I was applying the 'box' tag only to some modernistic cruise ship styles, not the France's original lines. My major dislike was the conversion of true 'liners' into cruise ships; I feel this tarnished their historical image. I feel a famous liner should remain intact (even if preserved as a museum/hotel). Ironically though the 'Norway' era did save the ex-France from the scrapyard. After the cutting torches have done their worst at Alang, I personally will only mourn what ended in 1974.
The cutting has begun on the Norway, most fittings are now removed, and the QE2 will be a floating hotel from 2009 in Dubai. A new Queen Elizabeth has been ordered for delivery in 2010.
Thank you for the update, reference the Norway scrapping, and QE2. I'm saddened but also ambivalent about the Norway. From a present viewpoint it would be truly wonderful to have a veteran preserved 'steamer'like an Aquitania or an unaltered Ille de France - or anything from the first quarter of the 20th century. But alas...
Does anybody know about the status of the SS United States. They really need to preserve that ship and restore her for a museum. Other than the QE2, that seems to be the last of the old days.
Most people who know anything about art and the importance of it would have "expected" her to be saved. Some ships, ocean liners go, but the best ones, such as the SSUS and SS France/Norway, should have been repaired as structures of the grandeur they once were.
So who is going to pay to save this rusting pile of crap? If Dubai had wanted it they would have paid the going rate. All the people saying it should be saved, are you prepared to pay for it with your own money? Someone has to pay for these things. The sooner it gets dismantled the better. Let's recycle the metal and build something useful for 2007, as opposed to what was useful in 1967.
NCL were losing £10,000 a day until they could sell it.
If most people here had a car on their drive which was costing them £10,000 a day they would sell it to stop their losses. You have to get real on this one.
NCL were in the cruising business, not throwing wads of banknotes on the fire.
These comments are so wrong $45m has been offerd to save her.she is a queen and classic, you dont know what your talking about. Let her go to dubai to be with the qe2 to queens together for ever
Quoting Rueben Goossens is not a way to build creditability ont he subject. Like so many od Rueben's proclomations he never once offered an iota of evidence to prove anything ever existed about an offer. What happened to "Project Bleu Ribband"? Reub was warned those backers were a fraud but he persisted and asked everyone to believe and follow. When it all fell apart no explanation nor apology. With so many maritime authors/speakers out there why isReub mentioned barely at all? Think about it.
She is being scrapped but the demo has not gotten this far, the pic is Photoshopped. You've chosen to believe what you want in spite of the fact there are several sources of information (the NTSB report for one) that say otherwise. Rueben's crusade against NCL has not been supported by any maritme authors or historians because Rueben's positions are full of holes. The "50m" he claims support him are #s from his combined webpages..another little fact he doesn't disclose. Think for yourself
@shahmiteshp Nothing shameful, this was the SS France one of the most famous liner's in the world and this was a crime to do this to her, no wonder there is still debate over whether it was legal.
Welcome to the Alang,where our waters are yellow,women are radiactive and metal is cheap.
emriaco 1 year ago
The Queen Mary is barely making it, and even what's left of her grand public spaces makes her far superior to anything afloat today. It costs a bloody fortune to keep a ship as a museum, and this ship is modified in the extreme--and badly so. It's sad to see so many old ships go to the wreckers these days, but the France/Norway was finished, and by this posting, is but a memory and who only knows how many Indian workers were injured or killed in her dismantling.
hedablinka 1 year ago
@hedablinka i love dead indians
MediaMisDirected 1 year ago
Feh, repainted and Renamed in a failed attempt to hide the truth. NCL was too cheap to rebuild her and didn't even give anyone a chance to save her to become a museum ship like she truly deserved. NCL's top execs pissed all over history just to save their more than high enough profit margins so they can all buy themselves Yachts and Bentleys.
Scioneer 1 year ago
What a horrible ending for a ship. Nothing like her will ever be forged again. Don't bother comparing her with these modern floating shoeboxes, it will never be the same.
gdcat777 1 year ago
@gdcat777 shes gone like a fart in the wind
MediaMisDirected 1 year ago
The water is orange with iron oxide...
TSM8088 2 years ago
And SS France.
sweetnessboy1 2 years ago
this makes me sad to see anyship like this!!
WamsWarrior 2 years ago
Yes, the Norway has been broken now. Check my channel for the actual scrapping pictures.
lightening777 2 years ago
Lightening is a well documented crack pot...he loves attention by passing off his videos as reality...he's not worth the time.
homeric9 2 years ago
Actually this Homeric guy is rumoured to be an NCL subversive. He's one of Veitch's crew. Goosens warned about these people who caused massive virus attacks on his website and emails, to suppress the truth about the Norway.
Notice how Homeric professes knowledge about the ships but has no channel or website of his own to back it all up. It's all part of his "cover".
lightening777 2 years ago
Yes..I should have the homemade videos like you have to back myself up.
Idiot..you really need attention that much you stoop to this shit?
Get a life..or just get laid.
homeric9 2 years ago
Hahaha, I bet you're a virgin, you seem to spend all your time on here commenting about ships when it's obvious you know nothing at all. I bet you haven't given any maritime history lectures like Rueben Goosens - someone you might learn a few things of - but that wouldn't be too difficult in your case considering your complete lack of knowledge!
lightening777 2 years ago
And you spend a great deal of time ignoring how other maritime historians completely ignore poor Rueben. an instigator, a provocateur..who gets off on being heard than on what he is saying. Doesn't say much for you listening to him. But you certainly have taken his lead. Your homemade video is right up there with his usually disproven rants.
You did no favors for the Norway..you only made a bad situation worse.
homeric9 2 years ago
So where is your website discussing maritime history if you are not an NCL plant, then prove it. I have documented the destruction of the Norway with nearly 200,000 views on my videos. You have done....... what ?
lightening777 2 years ago
wooooo weee look at the color of that water
SRV24243 2 years ago
Hello is Abdar there? This is Kurpal....ur daughter she come to my house and she beach my and now it be scraped
XXformula 3 years ago
WARNING WARNING WARNING
NCL trolls are posting in this thread.
Report any TOS violations to YT.
Lets get this situation under control.
titanastic 3 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Dinnarint, Dinnarint, Dinnarint, Dinnarint, torch that mutha f'cka!
Dinnarint, Dinnarint, Dinnarint, Dinnarint, breakin' up that sucker!
Nillna, nillna, nillna, Let's scrap that Norway shite, Woot!
pretendmosquito 3 years ago
I can't believe we're letting those dirty brown people cut up this work of art.
plotchickens 3 years ago
They're doing a great job. The Indian breakers are a class act. They're slicing that junk up like a joint of meat.
Has anyone got some more scrapping pics? There's only one You Tube Channel posting them... loads of "tribute" slide shows but not enough breakers yard action.
CaraBrimleyRules 3 years ago
oh ever so subtlety racist aren't you, plotchickens?
well India is the economy of tomorrow unlike the west which was the economy of yesterday.
it looks like the blue lady is out of luck, they're gonna cut that crap to fcuk.
pretendmosquito 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
India the economy of tomorrow? Ha-ha, that's rich.
More like the Clusterfuck of tomorrow. It'll boom with telemarketers and whatnot, and then once they can't sustain the sudden upsurge, it'll implode.
I can't wait to see that happen, because then I'll remember your comment. It will be a big laugh.
plotchickens 3 years ago
Not nice slicing a ship like the France, but the ones acting are not DIRTY BROWN people but employes of DIRTY BLONDE people who use POOR people in dark places like this one for their own dirty purposes. Best regards, Heil ADOLF. ALEC
virbastin 3 years ago
I agree with you, actually.
Even worse are those idiots selling the QE2 to Dubai.
Those greedy money-grubbing jerks in the desert.. they do not deserve a beautiful ship that's probably never even BEEN to Dubai.
It should be in a port that it saw regularly. New York, Southampton, even an Australian or an Asian port.
Somewhere that will appreciate it, instead of those arabs.
plotchickens 3 years ago
I need to warn all you tube viewers about a guy calling himself Homeric9. He poses as a maritime expert or amateur ship enthusiast, but he doesn't have any videos of his own or websites to back that up.
Instead it is believed that he may be a plant from NCL/Star/Alang Scavenger organizations spreading propaganda to counter the illegal disposal of the SS Norway-Indy-United states etc etc. MASSIVE virus attacks have been made on websites trying to tell people the truth about these ships.
titanastic 3 years ago 3
@titanastic ya those are the same ppl spraying chemtrails.wackjob
MediaMisDirected 1 year ago
@titanastic shut up dude. if your guna have a debate with someone then have your debate. but dont try to use propoganda on us. ya know who used propoganda? hitler...lol
MediaMisDirected 1 year ago
@MediaMisDirected OK you have just LOST the argument. Google Godwins Law Wikipedia and you'll see what I mean.
en(dot)wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I can't believe you fell for it !!!
titanastic 1 year ago
Yes we now have some more exclusive scrapping videos from our man on site Vikas Patil at Alang, India.
See my profile vid and channel
watch?v=7bt7yCTGLt8
lightening777 3 years ago
This is a great video. It shows them really smashing the crap out of that rusty old mutha f'er.
CaraBrimleyRules 3 years ago
sad man...
mickeymoose76 3 years ago
I agree with colinbull. However, the ship once was a real beauty and it's a shame that it has to end like that.
Travianwinner 3 years ago
There is a lot of asbestos insulating board on this ship. It will kill the unprotected workers at Alang
colinbull 3 years ago 2
Already ripped off part of top deck, the front mast and 18 massive holes in her side. Shes a goner. Sad.
taff622 3 years ago
its not fake and it IS too late...demolition is under way. We sailed on this ship when I was 8; its really sad...waste and insanity
forestghost7 3 years ago
it looks fake
maplemanz 3 years ago
We have to do somthing NOW! before it`s to late!
aek13 3 years ago
dear,m telling u ...wt u cn do is ... come to India &
shahmiteshp 3 years ago
the norway is a fine ship cant we do anything to save her? we cant let her go like this
EVILDALEK 4 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Yes, they are really beginning to torch the crap out of her now. There are some good scrapping pictures on You Tube.
Good riddance, I say. The Indian breakers are doing a fine job.
I can't wait till they make some really big cuts, like demolish the bridge or slice the bow off. It will keep us all in masturbation material for weeks!
CaraBrimleyRules 4 years ago
jeesus, if you masturbate over cut up ships then you need alot of help (apart from the psychiatric treatment you're currently undergoing for having a tiny dick), although I can understand how a kid could turn to other sources of pleasure when he cant satisfy a woman...
mickeymoose76 3 years ago
You're actually showing your own immaturity by stooping to the level of personal attacks.
If you disagree with a comment then you have the choice of saying nothing or presenting a reasoned opposing argument if you want to maintain your own credibility.
CaraBrimleyRules 3 years ago
"immaturity" ? coming from some sad little bastard who pulls his 3 incher over some asians dismantling a ship.... I could stoop any lower than that pal... IDIOT!
mickeymoose76 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I like asians trashing ships. So what.
You appear to have an obsession with penis size. That's totally unrelated to the discussion, yet you've brought it up twice already. Enjoy your penis fetish.
I think I'd rather have an obsession with ship destruction than a penis fetish. Hope you can control it.
CaraBrimleyRules 3 years ago
Sad to see the end for a fine ship. I saw it a few times at Southampton in the 'Sixties, and then for the last time maybe five years ago, same place. Bye Bye 'France'
SteffanLlwyd 4 years ago
In spite of an Indian Supreme Coourt order that the "Blue Lady" not be touched... they are obviously looking the other way as the leacherous scrappers tear the ship apart. Already they have removed her magnificent mast... and the added Presidential Suites/and upper suites built on top of her deck. Corruption, Greed, and Destruction of the enviroment run rampant in India.
cubantoro 4 years ago
I Agree, someone should re-store it, Then put it up for looking.
itisian 4 years ago 2
We'd buy the thing any time.. only thing is.. no $20m available at the time.
(still what would you rather have, a crappy house or a whole cruiseship to yourself nicely parked somewhere where it's warm with no laws ;)
add a couple of helicopters to do the shopping and you're all set to go.
hell you could even finance it by running some offshore casino for exclusive clientele in there
hugerecords 4 years ago
I don't think anyone with a respect for history likes to see a grand ship succumb like this. But these vessels are hideously expensive to maintain - and they often fall victim to tacky post-operational schemes. Ocean liners were never destined to survive after their service lives ended. The money just isn't there.
And what money is offered to 'save' ships such as these is often linked to economically dubious leisure schemes that fall apart soon enough - and prolong the indignity.
HermannBoering 4 years ago
You don't know what you are talking about. Look at what was done to save the Queen Mary.
pembroke2 4 years ago
The Queen Mary richly deserved to be saved, and those concerned cannot be praised too highly. But this ship was exceedingly fortunate. The Japanese have also done well to preserve the Hikawa Maru at Yokohama. The ex-France is impressive, but does not represent a classic - from either a structural, artistic or engineering standpoint. She has been barely surviving since 1973 (and much altered since her heyday - not for the better).
HermannBoering 4 years ago
LOL. You obviously do not know your ship history. The ship, despite her changes, is still a classic. Barely surviving since 1973? Good grief. She is the absolute reason for the modern cruise era, and she is also the most successful ship ever sailed. No ship has had her history with such success. Go read up on your maritime history.
ssnorwaygirl 4 years ago
Interesting viewpoint. If the modern 'cruise era' is your bag, then fine. Let's build more of these square -box floating amusement parks. However as an enthusiast of dedicated ocean-liners I do not see their tacky conversions as any 'success'. The old Queen Elizabeth mercifully succumbed before this fate fully overtook her. I would dearly like to see the old France saved - but only to be restored as a monument to her pre-1974 heyday.
HermannBoering 4 years ago
Even with her last refit, I'd hardly call the SS Norway a square-box floating amusement park. Having sailed on her twice, she would hardly fall into the category of any of the cruise ship I've sailed on since. There is hardly any comparission. Although I will agree her first refit was better than the second, she still did not resemble your modern day cruise ship.
ssnorwaygirl 4 years ago
Agreed. I was applying the 'box' tag only to some modernistic cruise ship styles, not the France's original lines. My major dislike was the conversion of true 'liners' into cruise ships; I feel this tarnished their historical image. I feel a famous liner should remain intact (even if preserved as a museum/hotel). Ironically though the 'Norway' era did save the ex-France from the scrapyard. After the cutting torches have done their worst at Alang, I personally will only mourn what ended in 1974.
HermannBoering 4 years ago
Your'e Right!
itisian 4 years ago
Hi. Does anybody out there know the present status of the Norway/France? And any future plans for the soon to be retired (I think)QE2?
HermannBoering 4 years ago
The cutting has begun on the Norway, most fittings are now removed, and the QE2 will be a floating hotel from 2009 in Dubai. A new Queen Elizabeth has been ordered for delivery in 2010.
Creanda 4 years ago
Thank you for the update, reference the Norway scrapping, and QE2. I'm saddened but also ambivalent about the Norway. From a present viewpoint it would be truly wonderful to have a veteran preserved 'steamer'like an Aquitania or an unaltered Ille de France - or anything from the first quarter of the 20th century. But alas...
HermannBoering 4 years ago
FRANCE/NORWAY has been scrapped. QE2 will be permanently moored in Dubai.
burntisland1 4 years ago
Does anybody know about the status of the SS United States. They really need to preserve that ship and restore her for a museum. Other than the QE2, that seems to be the last of the old days.
ShortyC40 4 years ago
SS UNITED STATES was "rescued" from a Turkish owner and is now rotting away tied up in Philadelphia.
burntisland1 4 years ago
A big shame to see the vessel like this. she used to be a beauty and a proud member of the Norwegian Merchant fleet.
beddymann 4 years ago 4
pooe comment
shahmiteshp 4 years ago
Most people who know anything about art and the importance of it would have "expected" her to be saved. Some ships, ocean liners go, but the best ones, such as the SSUS and SS France/Norway, should have been repaired as structures of the grandeur they once were.
ssnorwaygirl 4 years ago
So who is going to pay to save this rusting pile of crap? If Dubai had wanted it they would have paid the going rate. All the people saying it should be saved, are you prepared to pay for it with your own money? Someone has to pay for these things. The sooner it gets dismantled the better. Let's recycle the metal and build something useful for 2007, as opposed to what was useful in 1967.
zenimator 4 years ago 3
You are entitled to your opinion; that's what makes freedom of speech so nice.
ssnorwaygirl 4 years ago
NCL were losing £10,000 a day until they could sell it.
If most people here had a car on their drive which was costing them £10,000 a day they would sell it to stop their losses. You have to get real on this one.
NCL were in the cruising business, not throwing wads of banknotes on the fire.
lightening777 4 years ago
Dubais shippin compny has offered less thn $20m for her. I know the histry
shahmiteshp 4 years ago
These comments are so wrong $45m has been offerd to save her.she is a queen and classic, you dont know what your talking about. Let her go to dubai to be with the qe2 to queens together for ever
titchfield9 4 years ago
Quoting Rueben Goossens is not a way to build creditability ont he subject. Like so many od Rueben's proclomations he never once offered an iota of evidence to prove anything ever existed about an offer. What happened to "Project Bleu Ribband"? Reub was warned those backers were a fraud but he persisted and asked everyone to believe and follow. When it all fell apart no explanation nor apology. With so many maritime authors/speakers out there why isReub mentioned barely at all? Think about it.
homeric9 4 years ago
The Norway is being scrapped now though, See my channel for pictures and discussion.
Boycott NCL, and follow Reuben Goosen's lead, following her illegal sale to Alang.
lightening777 4 years ago 2
She is being scrapped but the demo has not gotten this far, the pic is Photoshopped. You've chosen to believe what you want in spite of the fact there are several sources of information (the NTSB report for one) that say otherwise. Rueben's crusade against NCL has not been supported by any maritme authors or historians because Rueben's positions are full of holes. The "50m" he claims support him are #s from his combined webpages..another little fact he doesn't disclose. Think for yourself
homeric9 4 years ago
Do not listen to this person, he is likely part of the NCL team who are in league with the Alang scavengers and the illegal breaking of the Norway.
titanastic 4 years ago
what the hell you on about?
mickeymoose76 3 years ago
Dear All,
This is my answer to waltercapt.
Dear Sir,
The place where I shot this clip is Alang Ship Breaking Yard, Alang, India.
& Blue Lady is waiting to be dismantelled there.
Nothing is shamefull about her.Afterall, one day every ship is to come here to be scraped.
What else did u expect???
Best Regards,
Mitesh Shah
shahmiteshp 4 years ago
@shahmiteshp Nothing shameful, this was the SS France one of the most famous liner's in the world and this was a crime to do this to her, no wonder there is still debate over whether it was legal.
andyman2461 8 months ago
Such a shame to see her like this! She deserves better than this...
waltercapt 4 years ago