listen men stop commenting on this video because I wanted to read the comments and all the comments are replies from beethhovencdf and american wolves 13 and idiot della open Facebook or somethin
Bret offered to drop the belt to Shawn in Ottawa the night after. He just wanted Shawn to show him some respect by jobbing in Montreal after he made the comment to Bret that he'd never job to him.
@sahotavideosinc he didn't. There's a conspiracy that he was in the know that the ref would call it but I don't think he did. He genuinly seemed pretty shocked at the end of it all.
@ThePercyPigeon1 - The filming of Walking with Shadows is was not centred around the screwjob, it involves the lead up to it as well. Vince couldn't stop the filming of the day of the screwjob and the screwjob itself because he might have thought that doing so would have tipped Bret off that something screwy was going to go down. It could be a work, but I doubt it 'cos 14 yrs of bitching, moaning and whining about something that was a work makes Bret look even more pathetic
@ luminafire - It's easier today to sift through the bullshit, the contradictions and the lies to get closer to the truth because in today's day and age kayfabe only exists in the ring. Even so, if you were to read a few books, watch some interviews, videos and DVDs from various sources, discount the bullshit, the contradictions and the lies I think you've more of a chance of getting to the truth than just proudly announcing yourself to be a mark and just dismissing everything as 90% bullshit
Considering the wrestlers who the WWE really has screwed, several of whom are dead now due to lack of support from the business they gave everything to... it's very hard to have sympathy for someone who got "screwed" by losing a title and then getting a large pay rise.
Stop whining Bret; if anything, you screwed yourself by taking the money with the WCW circus and then losing your career at the hands of the wrestling clown that is Goldberg.
Get your facts straight... Bret was forced out of his contract and forced out of the company.. Bret did not voluntarily leave the WWE, he never wanted to leave.
@BeethovenCDF Never said he wasn't forced out. That isn't a relevant fact to what I said. Bret lost an ultimately meaningless belt and got a very large pay rise; what's incorrect about my facts?
Bret did fine out of being "screwed" and made a lot of money, but people still talk about him getting screwed. Yet I hardly ever hear about how Owen was forced into an idiotic gimmick and ultimately killed as a direct result. Bret doesn't deserve sympathy when so many people genuinely did get screwed.
consider this: bret hart being the first wrestler to get physical with vince prior to the screw job, and the screw job itself played the biggest part in the creation of the Mr. McMahon character. Then bret was the one who gave steve austin, the leader of the attitude era, his most important match in his face turn when the reversed rolls. Bret does not get nearly enough credit (in general) for the part he took in how red hot the attitude era became.
In my opinion, "Respect" is something which is earned and it will either be given or not. "Expecting" to be respected is just arrogance and Bret was that arrogant. Also in response to Shawn's lack of respect Bret reacted like an overgrown spoilt child which threatened the survival of a company he was supposedly loyal towards, threatened to ruin a man he claimed to have a father/son relationship with and also threatened the jobs of the other wrestlers. Tell me what I should respect from that?
I think the best part is when he spat on Vince. When watching, you could clearly see that he didn't tap or submit yet they quickly rang the bell. My Read: Brett's thing was he wanted the respect to be 'on top' just as Hogan got for years carrying WWF. Now he felt it was his time and being that he was a far better wrestler than Hogan ever was, he deserved it. I can't fault him for that.
Bret can say he wouldn't have taken the belt to WCW all he wants....but if Alundra Blaze could do it (and dump the WWE Women's Title belt in a garbage can), Bret could do the same thing with the WWE Championship belt -- and Vince was *NOT* going to let that happen again. (Blaze had already done it, and embarrassed WWE in the process.) And with Bret refusing to drop the belt, I think (and this is my opinion) that Vince felt he didn't have any choice *BUT* to screw Bret.
How does my thinking VKM was worried about Bret Hart trashing the WWE Championship Belt with him to WCW, and possibly disgracing it the way Blaze (aka Madusa) did with the Women's Title, sound like a PSA for the KMA Club??
Did you know that when Blaze did that the WWF sued the WCW?? Around the time of the Montreal screw job, they were still in the thick of legal actions... even if Bret wanted to take the belt to WCW there was NO WAY he could have done so. Another excuse from Vince.
I think Bret is not the kind of guy to have taken the belt with him. BUt one thing that I still have not seen an answer to, through all the interviews and the docs is why he didn't want to lose that night at Survivor Series. He says, Canada didn't matter. Didn't want to lose to Shawn maybe? The ending was set up to be double DQ with run ins by DX and the Hart Foundation. I think the consensus now is that he didn't want to lose to HBK. But that is the thing, I want an answer from Bret.
@hbk92701 I think it all goes back to Shawn being a part of the Kliq and Bret had no respect for any of them. He said in a interview by refusing to lose to a member of the Kliq he was standing up for the locker room and the others who deserved the title.
@hbk92701 I read in his book that Bret didn't want to lose against Shawn because while Bret told him that he would be ready to put all their differecies aside for what's good for the business, Shawn told him that he would never lose the title to him (and he never did... see the "I lost my smile" angle for more details... Shawn really didn't want to lose to him).
let me get this right. Hart, the champ, is not re signed by WWF (in reality) So in his last title mach he is told by Mcmahon and staff (in reality) that he is scripted to win the match, Therefore leaving WWF with the belt and dignity. But McMahon, behind hart's, micheal's, etc back, tells Ref to end the mach in a point where Hart is held in his own submission, even though hart and micheals believe they are supposed to end the match with Hart winning. ?????
@pallknowing1 no. almost. michaels was in on it, but acted confused so bret wouldn't accuse him or suspect him, although hart figured it out pretty quickly
@pallknowing1 No. Bret was told that a DQ ending would occur with Owen and Bulldog running interference. I think people should understand that all of this came about simply because Bret wouldn't "do the right thing" and the reason he wouldn't was because Shawn had said he wouldn't return the favour. In essence, when Bret refused to drop the belt to Shawn, he was willing to screw Vince, the WWF and possibly cost the remaining wrestlers their jobs just because he didn't like Shawn
@pallknowing1 almost right. Vince didn't want Bret to show up to the WCW (the rivals) with the WWF title, which is normal. The thing is that Bret agreed to forfeit the title the next day on Raw...
@BeethovenCDF And despite what I've written you still blindly churn out "Vince tried to ruin Bret's career". Face facts, Bret screwed McMahon for what he could at a time when Bret knew just about anything could be asked because the WWF was in a weak position because of the WCW. Vince screwed Bret out of a title belt that in REALITY is meaningless. Bret was risking the WWF, the boys in the back their jobs, basically he was trying to screw them out of their livelihoods, and for what?
@BeethovenCDF - All that just because he despised Shawn Michaels. Btw, I'm not American, I'm Canadian Indian and English. In truth, you can bleat all you want about how thoroughly unfair it all was, but you'll never convince me that Bret was ever the innocent party, the honest, white hat good guy doig it all for everyone else. His book gave too much of himself away for me to ever believe that. Up to you if you want to remain as blinkered as you are. Not my problem
HAHAHA What did Bret Hart do to you?? Your hatred (which btw seeps through) for a man who I assume you've never interacted with borders on being quite unstable. The way you talk one would think that Bret personally screwed you in some way... And by the way, your worship of Vince is disgusting to say the least.
@BeethovenCDF - I don't hate Bret, I just wish he'd be a bit more honest than he is about how he went about things back in those days. According to his book he respected very few of the wrestlers, there was no indication whatsoever of a father/son relationship between him and McMahon and Money always played a huge part in his decisions. I've recently posted what I thought of Vince McMahon. I don't see how that can be construed as worshipping him
You don't hate Bret?? You could have fooled me.... Wrestling is not a hobby, this is their work, their job, their profession.... GOD FORBID they make money.... Bret had four children to take care of.... this loyalty crap is exactly what it is... crap
@BeethovenCDF - As said before I have no problem in anyone making money, I just prefer them to be honest about it, which Bret isn't and hasn't ever been. Actually, he was on the Rivals DVD but you seemed to have perhaps misunderstood what he was actually saying. Well, Bret's been spouting his loyalty to the company, the boys in the back and so on for years and years and years. No wonder businesses are as they are. Once upon a time Loyalty was like gold and hugely appreciated.
First off, the whole series of events leading to Montreal is a complicated series of events and for YOU to suggest that the issue is merely black and white is foolish at best.
@BeethovenCDF - You didn't need to go to Communist China or Russia either. I guess America's Corporate way of life is bound to breed such a skanky attitude towards the workplace and such. Oh well.
@TheBC313 - Well, I spent some time having a 'discussion' with a very pleasant tuber but I know what you mean. Of the people I've spoken with most are blind/deaf staunch Bret fans who believe Bret to be almost the second son of God when it comes to wrestling and believe he didn't deserve to be treated the way he was because he was all good. However, Bret was never the Saint he painted and still paints himself to be and believe it or not but his book written by him supports that *shrug*
@IDIOTdella Bret wasn't a Saint but that really was a lack of respect. We know that he was part responsible for what happened that night but I still believe that Vince could've find another solution then to screw a longtime employee... And I still think that it all comes to shawn being a jackass at the time... Hell the guy didn't want to lose to nobody! (not even with a brocken back... that says alot about the man)
@TheBC313 - It's the only thing I try to clarify, (though my previous conversation on this vid went a little on from that), because when it all comes down to it, so what if Bret was screwed out of a title back in 1997. He went on to the WCW with 3 million dollars in his pocket, and a chance to milk the 'poor innocent victim card' which he still plays today - only Bret was never the "innocent" victim, he was just as bad as Shawn and McMahon
@IDIOTdella I couldnt agree with you more. No matter how much he plays up the fact that he was hurt by it, there's a part of me that believes deep down he actually wanted it to happen, because he knew the sympathy that would follow. Someone who REALLY didnt want to be screwed just flat out wouldnt of let himself be put in that situation (the sharpshooter spot). Its just a theory of mine, I could be wrong :)
@TheBC313 - Indeed. A couple of things though. 1 Bret has always said that Earl had sworn on his kids lives that he wouldn't screw Bret, period, but Earl has always maintained that he said he wouldn't count Bret out - "You keep your shoulders up and I won't count you out" - which I think explains why Bret allowed the Sharpshooter to be applied in the first place, because it's a submission move and not a count out... tbc...
@TheBC313 - 2 I honestly don't understand why Bret was so hurt that he'd carry such bitterness and hatred for so long because all he got screwed out of was a title that was worthless to him because he was moving on to the WCW with $3 million in his pocket. Also, because he screwed Vince out of a couple of hefty contracts (see previous convrsation) I honestly don't believe his claim that he had a father/son relationship with Vince - unless screwing a parent in such a way is a given tbc
@IDIOTdella I also think the reason Bret was so hurt and bitter is because he felt like he was being forced out, he didnt want to go, and probably thought Shawn had something to do with him being forced out. That and the fact that Bret's a complete mark for himself.
@TheBC313 - I do understand but the problem I have it is that, IMO, it's an unjustified hurt and bitterness, simply because of what Bret was doing himself, how he went about gaining the contracts he did, using the hard times to his advantage even when other wrestlers were being let go at the time. I'm not absolving Vince for what he did, nor Shawn, and not even Earl, but I'm afraid I'm not in any way sympathetic towards Bret because as far as I'm concerned he did indeed screw himself.
@TheBC313 - 3 IMO, I think when McMahon says "Bret screwed Bret" he's alluding to the 20 Year $10 mil contract Bret screwed out of Vince when Vince could ill afford it - and the reason I believe the WWF was losing serious money is because McMahon could not match the WCW $3 mil offer, which is why he spread it over the 10 years. When Bret says he never believed Vince was struggling because he paid Tyson several million, Tyson was at a time when WCW was losing the Monday night war
@IDIOTdella Actually WCW were still winning the ratings during the whole Tyson angle. The Bret Screwed Bret was Vince saying "Bret wouldnt do business, so I did it for him, If he'd of done what I wanted, none of this would of happened" kinda thing. I do however find it hard to believe that Vince was having financial problems in 1997. The WWF were actually DRAWING in 1997, which they hadnt done since maybe 91-92.
@TheBC313 - You're right, I apologise, and yes, perhaps it was as you describe. I thought Wrestlemania 14 had been further into 1998 than it actually was. As silly as this sounds, but I'm not clued in what you mean by "Drawing" - do you mean crowds? Attendance? If so, it is true WWF was, but WCW were outdrawing them where I think it really mattered, which was the televised shows. House Shows and so forth are okay, good for promotional means but for drawing money and attendance, not so ... tbc...
@IDIOTdella Yes by Drawing i mean they were actually getting big crowds compared to the small crowds of the 92-96 era. You could tell business was on the rise. House shows, along with the PPV's, were actually WWF's main source of income back then.
@TheBC313 - ...Which up until 1998 there were only 4-5 PPV events a year for the WWF, spattered with some In Your House venues which looked like they were held at the same House Show venues, so, IMO, not a big draw but good exposure. I think the IYH series' were a bit like the Main Events, but the MEs looked like they were held at the PPV venues, so the draw would have been bigger then - and for me, that also shows signs of struggle because of where there IYHs were held *shrug* tbc
@TheBC313 -... because, as I understand it, the venues were far smaller than the televised venues. Throughout 1997 and a little way into 1998 Nitro outdrew the WWF on every occasion apart from 3, so I would say that the WWF was losing money because of this and in a big way. I think it wasn't until about March 1998 that they started to pick up a bit and then when SCSA hit and became Champion, that's when it began to make money and 1999 until it was sold in 2001 they blew Nitro out of the water.
I listed the lies from Brett that I actually had ROOM4. There are many more and any one who does the research can find them and more. Me? I did not even have to or DO research, these are just lies that slapped me in the face RIGHT there in ONE night of brushing up/catching up on old youtube vids that covered TMS.Job. I watched the vids as a Hitman fan, hoping to learn more and sympathize for one of my most admired wrestlers all over again, instead I began to uncover snakeskins similar to Vince!
@CubbieBear1980 - You are the very first Bret Hart fan I have ever encountered who has their eyes open and their ears tuned, who remembers one chat to another and sees the discrepancies, the hypocrisy and the lies. It is such a pleasure to meet you :-) I actually feel very sorry for Earl because in all of this, I think he was the only one who did what he did out of loyalty for the Company and the boys in the back. ...tbc...
@CubbieBear1980 - Yes, it was not a pleasant thing he did and apparently Earl paid for it with his guilt - and Bret simply gloated over the fact that for a while Earl turned to drinking himself ragged to try and get past that. As for JR I'm pretty much convinced he didn't know because of his reactions at the end of the match, but I think Lawler knew because he kept mentioning the planned DQ ending all the way through the match... tbc...
@CubbieBear1980 - Like yourself there are plenty of other unpleasant things about Bret that I discovered while reading the book and also watching various videos on youtube and so forth but can't comment about them all because of the character restriction on here. Suffice to say that both Shawn and Bret were shits back then, like for like and that's why the feud spilled over into their personal lives because they and Vince were very much alike when it came to money...
@CubbieBear1980 - Lastly, as for the book being the best Wrestler/Wrestling book out there. I read a lot and yet this was the hardest book I've ever had to read, because it is from such an egocentric viewpoint and at times a delusional POV where the matches he describes that he participated in was, at times, complete garbage, that it took me the longest of times to get through - and I did not have a pleasant feeling of "that was such an enjoyable read" at the end of it.
@IDIOTdella interesting. B/c some ppl say they could NOT put it down. But hey, maybe thats not necessrily in a good way. They may mean like the 'can't turn a way from school bus train wreck' sort of way. Egocentric huh? Wow, I would not have taken Bret for the type,..well certainly his TV wrestler persona but of course 90% of the guys are NOthing like their 'over blown personality' TV personas. So, are U saying U got the impression he's in love with & believes in his own hype/legend&myth type??
@CubbieBear1980 - No beating around the bush, yes I left that book with a very very strong impression that Bret did (and I think still does) indeed believe in his own hype/legend status such as being the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be - and my impression stems from his overblown descriptions of some of the matches he participated in and also his entrances, how everyone is always in tears when all they are doing is paying him a compliment... tbc
@CubbieBear1980 (cont'd)... The importance he places on himself in others lives, such as apparently the last words Kerry Von Erich said to Bret were the words in his suicide note - then goes on to say he's always believed that the Von Erich suicides were simply a way in which the brothers could outdo the other because they were so competitive in life, which I found particularly distasteful. Also, the night Joey Marella died Bret's last words were 'be careful driving'... tbc...
@CubbieBear1980 (cont'd)... He also justifies his whoring thru the territories and in other countries as not wanting to be alone, that his lust was always stronger than his guilt and that his wife was always moaning at him, not actually acknowledging the fact she was at home trying to raise 4 kids on her own. There's also how he'd trash most of the wrestlers he had no respect for and making out as tho the others were solely dependent on him and his expertise, and so on and so on
@CubbieBear1980 - But this is just my impression and I'm sure there are many who don't see it written that way at all. Some may see it as just a confirmation of how wonderful Bret is because he's written it all down on paper. I'd contest that view simply because the matches he describes and his entrances can be proven to be almost delusional and he lies and I know he lies in the book because I can prove them to be lies.*shrug*
@IDIOTdella thank for the conversation and 'tube frienship which is rare among strangers. Two questions b/c obviously you are more knowledgable in this than I. What is this song and dance about "time honored tradition" and is there anything more to it than bull @face value or at BEST 'honor' among theives? 2nd what do they mean when they talk of Vince 'orchestrating' the whole thing, so that it was not a surprise to him, its as if it was lil more than an extended writtend drama to the ppv>>??<<
@CubbieBear1980 - Though I do agree that the words used could have come from a daytime Soap Opera. Both sides made me gag at times because of how they expressed themselves and the tradition of passing the torch to the new guy. :-)
@CubbieBear1980 Cheers for the conversation too. It's been thoroughly enjoyable :-) 1. "Time Honoured Tradition" is a kind of Soap Opera way of saying that it is expected that when a new star is given the chance to lead the company, that the holder of the Championship belt drops it to the new guy, kind of "passing the torch". 2. What they mean by Vince "Orchestrating" it is that he was the central figure, the one who organised it all, tho many believe it was HHH who suggested it
@CubbieBear1980 - IMO, when it all comes down to it, Bret self-inflicted years of bitterness and hatred onto himself over a belt that in REALITY means absolutely nothing. It's not a confirmation of being the best before, or then or for the future, it is just a symbol of faith from Vince McMahon that he believed the holder of the belt would be the biggest moneymaker for him - it's why the screwjob was a business decision, because Bret wouldn't drop the belt to Shawn
@CubbieBear1980 - ... and handing the belt to Shawn would have devalued Shawn's worth as a Champion. So I think screwing Bret out of the title fitted in with the Attitude Era and also Shawn's character persona and the only unexpected thing to happen was the creation of the McMahon character, tho' most say it isn't too far from the real Vince McMahon anyway. :-)
@DJolim - Yes, I know about the "Lost His smile" incident and yes, Shawn was a bit of a shit back then also. They both were also just about as immature as you could get, tit-for-tat in trying to outdo the other on personal insults and so on. However, the "Lost his smile" incident is vastly different to the circumstances surrounding the MSJ. For one thing it has never been determined whether Shawn forfeited the title because he didn't want to relinquish the title to Bret. tbc...
@DJolim (cont'd) ...That's always been supposition. Shawn was, apparently, injured but, according to Bret, it was believed to be a fake injury, despite the fact that Shawn did have surgery on it and was out for at least a couple of months. No-one else has mentioned their suspicions concerning the injury only Bret. Having said all that though, I do think it was as convenient and Shawn should have gone on with the match at WM13, or even lost the title beforehand in a TV taping tbc...
That is a lie... I know for a fact that The Undertaker suspected that the injury was fake as well, as did many others in the locker room. Shawn was always hooked up on pills.
@DJolim - (cont'd) However, imo, the circumstances surrounding the MSJ were entirely down to Bret. The orchestration of the MSJ was not. Bret has "said" he had the greatest respect for McMahon and for the "boys in the back" and yet when a time came to "show" them that respect he didn't, and the reason he didn't was simply because of his personal feelings towards one person. All in all, imo, they were as bad as each other outside of the ring and as good as each other inside it tbc...
This entire thing was Vince's fault. The minute he agreed to Bret's contract which stated that Bret would have creative control his last 30 days with the company ... allowing Bret to keep the belt up to Survivor Series.... ALL VINCE'S fault.
@BeethovenCDF - *sigh* Bret has always maintained he was loyal to the WWF/McMahon/The boys in the back. His book says otherwise. Bret has always maintained that money never EVERRRRRR played a large part in his decisions. His book says otherwise, so does his comments on the Rivals DVD. Bret has always maintained he never purposefully hurt another wrestler, his book says otherwise, and so does an interview with Bad News Brown, a wrestler and one time friend of the Hart family
Once again, I've read Bret's book.. I have no idea what you are talking about. I have the Rivals DVD and again I don't know what you are talking about. Secondly, once again you demonize a worker for negotiating for more money. Seems silly to me.
@BeethovenCDF - Okay, in his book, Bret used an up and coming court case against VM, threatened to leave for the WCW and also the fact that the WWF was losing big time against the WCW. Despite other wrestlers being let go at the time, which Bret acknowledges, but that's all he does, Bret holds out until the deal is honoured. Does that speak of loyalty to anyone or anything? Or does that speak of someone simply out to get what he could and damn the rest of it?
Up and coming court case???? Oh you mean the court case that correctly held Vince and the WWE accountable for the DEATH of Owen Hart?? You're a sick man. BTW Vince and Russo and the WWE KILLED Owen Hart. Number 2, Bret was FORCED to leave the company. When someone kicks you out and your back is against the wall you DO BUSINESS FOR YOURSELF!!!!!!!
@BeethovenCDF - Sheesh! For someone so blatantly pro Bret regardless, you sure know little of time frames. Owen died AFTER Bret had left, remember? Bret left in 1997 Owen died in 1999. Yes, I agree the WWE were responsible for Owen's death, in that they were negligent. As for guilty of murdering him, no. According to Bret's book McMahon advised Bret to seek out the WCW offer because he would not be able to honour their previous contract.
First of all I'm not pro Bret I'm pro WRESTLER.. I'm pro worker's rights. Secondly I am VERY aware that Owen died in '99.. you're the one who brought up an "up coming court case" . Number three, I said the WWE Killed Owen Hart, I did not say Murder.... Vince not being able to honor the contract yet was able to pay Mike Tyson 5 million dollars 5 months later.
@BeethovenCDF It was all amicable until McMahon would not agree to the DQ ending and forfeiting the title the next night on RAW, something which would only have benefited Bret, not Shawn or the WWF. I imagine you're not familiar with the word LOYALTY then? Something Bret professes to this day to have had, and yet to do business for yourself is not loyalty, that's selfishness. 3 people doing business for themselves, and one ref who apparently did what he did for the boys in the back
I DO NOT believe in loyalty to a company.... sorry this is not communist china.... That's absolutely ridiculous... I believe in worker's rights... I also respect Bret Hart because he's pro union...
@BeethovenCDF - I've never said they shouldn't be able to do business for themselves, my argument is to say that Bret apparently doesn't recognise the meaning of doing business for yourself. According to Bret's book he seems to think that that's a showing of loyalty simply because he stayed at the WWF, but only AFTER he'd procured the deal he'd been holding out for. As said before it should be recognised as selfishness, not loyalty.
@BeethovenCDF - Bret had "Reasonable" control of his character (he says so on his Walking with Shadows dvd) which gave him the power to nix any storyline he felt would be detrimental to his character. He never did that. Reasonable control did NOT give him the power to pick and choose who he dropped the belt to or where and when, that is a business decision, which would have been McMahon's since he was the owner of the WWF.
Well lets not kid ourselves.... we BOTH know why Bret put that clause in his contract. It was obviously put there to protect himself on the way out of the company. If that is not "reasonable" then I don't know what is.
@BeethovenCDF - Bret has said that he held out on dropping the belt to Shawn as a show of respect for the boys in the back which is bullshit. Dropping the belt would have shown that respect and also gratitude towards those who'd put him over on his way to the top. Dropping the belt would have also shown respect and gratitude towards McMahon for giving him the platform in which to shine and also for showing he had faith in him (Bret) to lead the company. But no Bret couldn't do that
@BeethovenCDF - Here we go again, the showed no respect argument again. Respect is earned and it's up to other individuals if they give it or not, Expecting respect is arrogance and Bret reacting the way he did to Shawn's lack of respect is an indication of just how large an ego Bret had. So what if someone disrespects you. What makes you the better person by deciding to stoop to their level in response? No matter how loudly you shout, my opinion hasn't changed.
@BeethovenCDF - Okay, my final words on this because you're beginning to piss me off now what with your deaf ears and your blindness to the facts, and one thing I hate doing is reiterating myself because someone is either too dumb or too stupid to understand what I'm saying.
No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it's up to OTHERS whether they give respect or not. EXPECTING respect is just arrogance. Okay, now I'm finished. Have a nice day and try not to blow a blood vessel
@BeethovenCDF By not dropping the belt Bret decided to risk the WWF he was supposedly have been loyal to, risk ruining a man he supposedly had regarded as a Father Figure and also the jobs of the boys in the back. Bret's decision had nothing to do with anything or anyone other than his own personal feelings toward Shawn Michaels. He had the perfect opportunity to show his loyalty and his respect but he chose not to.
@DJolim - Imo, both deserve all the respect that can be given for their expertise and work rate inside the ring, but their attitude outside of the ring, well, both were the height of selfishness, adolescent, jackasses back then, and if Bret's book can be believed, possibly a whole other negative adjectives as well.
@DJolim - I think Bret's book was an eye-opener and not in a complimentary sense. It basically debunks many of Bret's holier-than-thou stances he's made before and since the MSJ, especially the money not playing a big part in things. It also shows that Bret was not as loyal as he claimed to be, not towards McMahon, the company or the majority of the boys in the back. Nor was he loyal towards his family or his wife. Also, given his 2 previous contract dealings, Bret really did screw Bret
@IDIOTdella I agree that Bret wasn't a saint in this MSJ incident but Bret left the wwf because Shawn (scumbag back then) was running the show and Vince was very supportive towards him. It's not a question of being loyal but he didn't like the product enough to stay and you can't blame him for that. But yet again, his attitude was really childish and he should've act another way and leave the company like the legend he is. Bret did screw Bret, with alot of help from Vince Mcmahon and HBK.
@DJolim - Shawn running the show or the Klique running the show has pretty much been debunked by both Bret and Shawn who have said that the storylines and the promos were scripted and talked amongst themselves. You even get to hear about that in Bret's WWS Vid and on the Rivals DVD. You also get to read in BRET'S book how Shawn and the others went to Bret with the idea of the Klique and wanting him to lead it, but he turned them down because of the level of pills they were allegedly taking tbc..
HAHAHA you are living in fantasy world.... Shawn's drug abuse problem was not something that was alleged. Shawn Michaels WAS A DRUG ADDICT!! Period!! Everyone knows this
@DJolim - Imho, I think Bret didn't want to stay because the WWF was handing over the reigns to someone he personally detested and someone he, rather arrogantly, felt was not deserving of being in the top spot. Imo, regardless of what was going on behind the scenes, Shawn Michaels was putting arses on the seats and whether he was a heel or a face he was getting good reactions from the crowds - which further incensed Bret because he regarded Michaels' character as just a pimp/male whore.
@DJolim - Hmm, legend. Are either of them legends? Of Wrestling, perhaps, but for me a true wrestling LEGEND is someone who can be respected inside the ring as well as outside of it, and, for me, in semi-recent years only three fit that category which are Mark Calaway, Dwayne Johnson and Earl Hebner - with SCSA on the cusp but not quite there because of his roid rage incident with his wife.
@luminafire - ALLEGEDLY selling merchandise without permission. It was never proven and never went to court. Not only that, Earl had INVESTED in the T-Shirt shop but he didn't run it. They also fired Dave Hebner for the alleged same thing even though he had nothing whatsoever to do with the shop. So, you were saying?
@IDIOTdella lol okay bro. I'm sure there were more than murmurs about Hebner doing this for WWE to fire its senior-most and most experienced referee. 90% of everything in wrestling including all this crap about the Montreal Screwjob is "alleged" -- fact is, none of us marks have any idea what happened
@luminafire - Stephanie McMahon used the shop to produce the shirts and badges for the referees, so she knew all about it, and then all of a sudden it's selling merchandise without WWF permission and Earl is being fired because of that? And Dave as well, who had nothing to do with the shop. You want me to repeat that for you so it registers? Firing Dave Hebner for the same alleged thing when he had nothing to do with the shop. Want me to say it again?
@IDIOTdella Where is the proof? Why did they get fired "all of a sudden"? I'm not saying it didn't go down like that but there's about as much proof that it did as there is the official story -- none. At least the official story sounds more complete than that alleged conspiracy but the only people who know what really happened are the WWE and Earl Hebner. We marks are all just taking guesses one way or another-- the business is very secretive. Again, neither of us have any proof.
@luminafire - Go watch the Hebner Brothers Shoot interview. Okay? Logically you'd think they would shit all over Vince and the WWF, but they didn't, and they still didn't when they explained their firings. They actually allow the viewer to form their own opinion - and the interview can't have been that long after their firings because Earl was not working for TNA at the time - and he started there about 6 months after he was fired from the WWE.
@luminafire It happened suddenly because Earl was getting ready to go to Philly for the next Raw only he got fired the day before and Dave got fired a couple of days later. You also know it was sudden because Earl was in the RAW the week before. The official story stinks and if you read my previous post you'd know why. Also no one in their right mind would jeopardise their job over a $12 shirt especially when one of the owners where you worked knew about the shop in the first place.
@IDIOTdella I mean, I understand that that's what they say, but that's still not concrete proof anymore than the WWE saying they did something wrong. I'll look into it-- admittedly, I hadn't heard this story until you mentioned it in your reply, but it's still he-said she-said. If they were really wronged, wouldn't that be all the MORE reason for them talk shit on the WWE?
@luminafire - Not if you know the true meaning of loyalty, and they did, and I know what loyalty is too, because no matter how much you want to rant, rave and rage about how shitty you've just been treated, it's hard to because you know that ultimately they did far more for you than the shitty ending they gave to your time there. The only thing they say is that Vince McMahon is not the same man they worked for before WWF went public and changed to the WWE.
Loyalty to a company???? Absurd!!! These men and women are suppose to be independent contractors. Why Americans are so obsessed with protecting the powerful is beyond me.
@luminafire - In all honesty, I hope you do look into it because Bret Hart spent 14 effing years whining, bitching and moaning about being cheated out of a title that was completely and utterly worthless to him, risked ruining a company he says he was loyal to and jeopardise wrestlers jobs their job and yet there are wrestlers, road agents and the like who've been cheated out of their livelihoods - something far worse than what happened to Bret.
@IDIOTdella I'll look into it. The only thing I can really say is that it was probably unwise and unprofessional to embarrass Bret on live PPV like that in his home country. I never understood why they didn't just tell him to lay down or just strip him of the title. Seems like there are just better ways it could have been done. Even if Bret was dead wrong and he just didn't want to give Shawn the title, why stoop to his level the way they did?
@luminafire - McMahon wasn't thinking in terms of how to make the best of it for Bret Hart, he was thinking of what woudleb teh best bet for his next best moneymaker in company, which was Shawn.The DQ ending and the forfeiting of the tile the next day on RAW only benefited Bret because the WWF would ultimately have a Champion who'd just been gifted the title. A screwjob was more in keeping with how Shawn's character was perceived in Canada and it also insured that the title stayed at the WWF
Here is some facts for you. Bret offered to drop the belt to Steve Austin, The Undertaker, Mick Foley, even Ken Shamrock... He even agreed to drop the belt to Shawn another night... This was about nothing more than trying to humiliate Bret Hart... simple as that.
@luminafire The screwjob was also in keeping with the Attitude Era, which had begun in 1996. So business wise there were far more pros for the screwjob and its success than there would have been if McMahon had gone with Bret's suggestion. All in all McMahon made a business decision Bret took it personally, pure speculation, maybe because he was trying to with screw Michaels' drawing power and then we have 14ys of bitching and whining about it all being unfair it and how Bret was the innocent
@luminafire - Believe it or not but Bret's book (the cartoon world one) is a very good source on what Bret's state of mind was during this period, and basically he's not the loyalist he claimed to be, not towards McMahon or the company or towards most of the boys in the back, neither was he as innocent as he claims and his claim that money never played a huge part in things is completely and utterly debunked in the book *shrug*
@IDIOTdella I grew up a huge Bret Hart fan, and also being a Shawn Michaels fan, and I always felt that Bret was in the wrong. Ironically Vince delivers the line that sums it all up: Bret didn't do the right thing for the business that made him. Regardless of personal vendetta, he was leaving the company, you drop the belt before you leave. Bret needed to realize that you lose to who they to you to. And I know Shawn refused to lose to others and I don't condone that either.
@AmericanWolves13 - Exactly. I mean, I know I come over as simply anti-Bret and that's about it, but I'm not. Shawn was a shit back then too, he knows it and acknowledges it, his fans know it too. I just get extremely pissed off when there's such a hate on Shawn and yet Bret is revered as almost a heavenly body - when there is so much material out in the real world that says something completely different.
I don't think that Shawn has truly and fully embraced the person he was back then. I give him a world of credit for turning his life around. That is commendable, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. BTW I LOVE Bret Hart, and nor I nor anyone I know thinks Bret is a "heavenly body"... that seems a bit extreme.
@AmericanWolves13 - If there was an even balance going on, with Bret's fans acknowledging the fact their hero wasn't as squeaky clean or as noble and honest as Bret wants them to believe, I'd have no problem at all. What respect I do have for either of them OUTSIDE the ring, it will always be for Shawn because he at least has the humility to admit he was a shit back then. Bret just continues to whine offering token apologies but laying the bulk of the problems at Shawn's door
No one has ever implied that Bret was squeaky clean. That's too simplistic. However we do believe in worker's rights. We believe that a wrestler, a supposed independent contractor, has the right to protect him or herself especially when they have creative control their last 30 days with the company.
Number 1, Bret had creative control his last 30 days with the company... a clause that was written into his contract that Vince signed and agreed to.
Number 2, a wrestler has a right to protect him or herself and it is not selfish to do so. Bret did the RIGHT thing. Let me put it to you this way... Shawn put the office before the boys.... Bret put the boys before the office. Which side are you on?
@BeethovenCDF I blame all three. I blame Vince, Shawn and Bret. But Shawn admits he was wrong. He admits he was a piece of shit. But I hold Bret most accountable. Yes a wrestler has a right to protect himself, but Bret was leaving. Refusing to put over the guy who YOUR BOSS tells you to put over is Wrong. It's wrong for anyone to do. And for Bret, someone who claims to do what's right for the business and being a traditionalist, he should have put his ego and done the right thing and drop the
Wrestling fans are such cowards... Everyone LOVED Steve Austin because he spit in the face of authority and challenged the establishment... but this was a STORYLINE.... But when in reality a Wrestler is ACTUALLY doing that no one has the guts to stand by the wrestler, the worker, the independent contractor... it's hypocrisy. I support the BOYS over the company, I support the BOYS over the office and always will. I believe in worker's rights.
@BeethovenCDF title on the way out. It's not like they were burying him on his way out. Hell, in the year before he left he beat Austin TWICE, Undertaker twice. Having him lose to Shawn in Canada was less than ideal but its not like they were jobbing him out to the Brooklyn Brawler, he was losing to Shawn Michaels someone pushed as the best. Montreal just proved that Bret is immensely egotistical and it led to his downfall. In wrestling you LOSE to who your told to LOSE to. And I love Bret, but
@AmericanWolves13 - Can't say I love any of the three. Not that hot for such huge egos, but I do respect Bret and Shawn for what they accomplished, for their in-ring abilities and creating characters you could love and hate - sometimes at the same time. As for McMahon when it comes to business, he's, in my opinion, the definition of a businessman, and not in a complimentary sense, but outside of that well there's been many who've remained ever so been loyal to him so who knows.
@IDIOTdella Unfortunately in this business it's damn near impossible to find someone who doesn't have a huge ego. Montreal was just a situation that showed the worst of Shawn Michaels, Vince McMahon, Bret Hart and the Wrestling Business itself. And I'm glad that everyone has been able to bury the hatchet.
@AmericanWolves13 - Indeed. In all honesty, though it's about blooming time. In truth I think it should have been buried along time ago.
To be honest, the only truly unattractive thing associated with a man for me is a whiner. It was something I didn't like about Bret's Hitman character nor of Jericho's and others, including SCSA when he hooked up with McMahon's character. Makes me grind my teeth to pulp at times - chuckle.
Creative Control in his contract his last 30 days with the company...... Montreal was about Vince's ego.... I support a wrestlers right to do business for HIMSELF or HERSELF.... Bret offered to drop the belt Steve Austin, The Undertaker, Mick Foley, even Ken Shamrock. He even agreed to drop the title to Shawn on another night. This had nothing to do with business, this was all about the systematic humiliation and dehumanization of another human being.
@BeethovenCDF - Are you listening to me? Or have you just gone into a red-rage zone and just spouting the first thing that comes to mind? Have you seen Bret's Walking With Shadows? He states on there he had REASONABLE creative control over his CHARACTER. The MSJ was a business decision. That's it. That;s all it was, is and ever will be. Bret wa sthe one whom decided it was something more and you believe him. Good for you.
First of all it's "WRESTLING with Shadows"...... Reasonable is relative to the person, second of all.... and as I said before... from the moment Bret turned heel, it was sabotage all the way.
@BeethovenCDF - My apologies, Wrestling with Shadows. Well, okay, so reasonable is relative to the person. Well, McMahon was informing Bret that his version of reasonable was different to Vince's and what Vince wanted was Bret to drop the belt to Shawn at Montreal. End of. Vince being the Boss, the head honcho, the man in charge, the OWNER of the WWF.
AS I said before... we BOTH know why Bret put that clause in the contract... to protect himself on the way out. Vince has masterfully convinced people that wrestling is his business... it's not HIS business, it's the wrestler's business.. I don't protect the powerful... I protect the worker....
@BeethovenCDF It doesn't matter who they ask you to lose to, or when or where. It's not like they wanted him to lose in a minute to The Patriot and then have him burn the canadian flag. And trust me, this isn't just a Bret Hart thing, I think it was selfish of Shawn Michaels to throw a fit and screw Vader out of the title. As for the point about cheering Austin but not cheering Bret for doing the same thing in real life: Well I cheer Undertaker for being a zombie mortician but if someone was
@BeethovenCDF a zombie mortician in real life I sure as hell wouldn't cheer him. What your doing is trying to turn Bret Hart into a martyr, who stood up because he wanted to prove a point for every wrestler so that they wouldn't be embarrassed, when he's said multiple times that he didn't wanna do it because it would hurt HIS character. Because HE thought he was a hero in Canada. Shawn's not innocent; Bret's hands are FAR from clean in this and people who act as if he's a saint need to wake up
No one is trying to make Bret into a martyr, and no has ever claimed he was a saint.... Secondly, him standing up for HIMSELF was in fact standing up for the boys. When Rosa Parks refused to move and sit in the back of the bus she was standing up for HERSELF, but by standing up for herself she was standing up for all blacks in the country... not that i'm equating the two.. just an example.
@BeethovenCDF Well then Bret should thank guys like Hogan and Nash for Creative Control because they had that long before this incident. This whole Montreal Incident I believe, besides the Benoit incident and the Owen Hart accident, is one of the lowpoints of Professional Wrestling, where you could see just how selfish and childish your childhood heroes could be.
listen men stop commenting on this video because I wanted to read the comments and all the comments are replies from beethhovencdf and american wolves 13 and idiot della open Facebook or somethin
OmarWWERKO 1 day ago
Do you guys only care that much about the " mjs " that much lol. Its not even that big of a deal its something that happened that ur stuck on
TheRobertox6x 1 day ago
Bret offered to drop the belt to Shawn in Ottawa the night after. He just wanted Shawn to show him some respect by jobbing in Montreal after he made the comment to Bret that he'd never job to him.
Showman786 1 day ago
I never get to c this but did bret tap r not
sahotavideosinc 3 days ago
@sahotavideosinc are you fucking kiddin' me
HardysLukas 1 day ago
@sahotavideosinc he didn't. There's a conspiracy that he was in the know that the ref would call it but I don't think he did. He genuinly seemed pretty shocked at the end of it all.
gregsky01 1 day ago
at the end of the day vince. screw give at wrestlemania 27
dankill1998 4 days ago
If he felt that strong about it all then he wouldnt be appearing on a wwe docu which will make him and vince money!!
jameswickes 4 days ago
FUCK VINCE
MrRyderOrRiot 6 days ago
I always found it a work, bret have his own camera crew at SS 97.
ThePercyPigeon1 6 days ago
@ThePercyPigeon1 - The filming of Walking with Shadows is was not centred around the screwjob, it involves the lead up to it as well. Vince couldn't stop the filming of the day of the screwjob and the screwjob itself because he might have thought that doing so would have tipped Bret off that something screwy was going to go down. It could be a work, but I doubt it 'cos 14 yrs of bitching, moaning and whining about something that was a work makes Bret look even more pathetic
IDIOTdella 4 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ luminafire - It's easier today to sift through the bullshit, the contradictions and the lies to get closer to the truth because in today's day and age kayfabe only exists in the ring. Even so, if you were to read a few books, watch some interviews, videos and DVDs from various sources, discount the bullshit, the contradictions and the lies I think you've more of a chance of getting to the truth than just proudly announcing yourself to be a mark and just dismissing everything as 90% bullshit
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
Comment removed
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
Comment removed
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
Considering the wrestlers who the WWE really has screwed, several of whom are dead now due to lack of support from the business they gave everything to... it's very hard to have sympathy for someone who got "screwed" by losing a title and then getting a large pay rise.
Stop whining Bret; if anything, you screwed yourself by taking the money with the WCW circus and then losing your career at the hands of the wrestling clown that is Goldberg.
Surlish 1 week ago
@Surlish
Get your facts straight... Bret was forced out of his contract and forced out of the company.. Bret did not voluntarily leave the WWE, he never wanted to leave.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF Never said he wasn't forced out. That isn't a relevant fact to what I said. Bret lost an ultimately meaningless belt and got a very large pay rise; what's incorrect about my facts?
Bret did fine out of being "screwed" and made a lot of money, but people still talk about him getting screwed. Yet I hardly ever hear about how Owen was forced into an idiotic gimmick and ultimately killed as a direct result. Bret doesn't deserve sympathy when so many people genuinely did get screwed.
Surlish 13 hours ago
This has been flagged as spam show
consider this: bret hart being the first wrestler to get physical with vince prior to the screw job, and the screw job itself played the biggest part in the creation of the Mr. McMahon character. Then bret was the one who gave steve austin, the leader of the attitude era, his most important match in his face turn when the reversed rolls. Bret does not get nearly enough credit (in general) for the part he took in how red hot the attitude era became.
wjsoares03 1 week ago 2
good thing killbane told me about this,
ADAMTHEKILLJOY 2 weeks ago 2
HBK and Bret Hart would have been a great rivalry.
StrykerMan81 2 weeks ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
In my opinion, "Respect" is something which is earned and it will either be given or not. "Expecting" to be respected is just arrogance and Bret was that arrogant. Also in response to Shawn's lack of respect Bret reacted like an overgrown spoilt child which threatened the survival of a company he was supposedly loyal towards, threatened to ruin a man he claimed to have a father/son relationship with and also threatened the jobs of the other wrestlers. Tell me what I should respect from that?
IDIOTdella 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
IDIOTdella 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
IDIOTdella 3 weeks ago
I think the best part is when he spat on Vince. When watching, you could clearly see that he didn't tap or submit yet they quickly rang the bell. My Read: Brett's thing was he wanted the respect to be 'on top' just as Hogan got for years carrying WWF. Now he felt it was his time and being that he was a far better wrestler than Hogan ever was, he deserved it. I can't fault him for that.
NormanRB 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
takisguy7 3 weeks ago
My take on this --
Bret can say he wouldn't have taken the belt to WCW all he wants....but if Alundra Blaze could do it (and dump the WWE Women's Title belt in a garbage can), Bret could do the same thing with the WWE Championship belt -- and Vince was *NOT* going to let that happen again. (Blaze had already done it, and embarrassed WWE in the process.) And with Bret refusing to drop the belt, I think (and this is my opinion) that Vince felt he didn't have any choice *BUT* to screw Bret.
knightryderrwn 3 weeks ago
@knightryderrwn You sound like a PSA for the VKM KMA Club
IsHeDied 3 weeks ago
@IsHeDied,
How does my thinking VKM was worried about Bret Hart trashing the WWE Championship Belt with him to WCW, and possibly disgracing it the way Blaze (aka Madusa) did with the Women's Title, sound like a PSA for the KMA Club??
knightryderrwn 3 weeks ago
@knightryderrwn
Did you know that when Blaze did that the WWF sued the WCW?? Around the time of the Montreal screw job, they were still in the thick of legal actions... even if Bret wanted to take the belt to WCW there was NO WAY he could have done so. Another excuse from Vince.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF,
No, I did not know that the WWF sued the WCW in the aftermath of what Blaze did...although it doesn't surprise me.
knightryderrwn 1 day ago
I think Bret is not the kind of guy to have taken the belt with him. BUt one thing that I still have not seen an answer to, through all the interviews and the docs is why he didn't want to lose that night at Survivor Series. He says, Canada didn't matter. Didn't want to lose to Shawn maybe? The ending was set up to be double DQ with run ins by DX and the Hart Foundation. I think the consensus now is that he didn't want to lose to HBK. But that is the thing, I want an answer from Bret.
hbk92701 3 weeks ago
@hbk92701 I think it all goes back to Shawn being a part of the Kliq and Bret had no respect for any of them. He said in a interview by refusing to lose to a member of the Kliq he was standing up for the locker room and the others who deserved the title.
thebus4836 3 weeks ago
@hbk92701 I read in his book that Bret didn't want to lose against Shawn because while Bret told him that he would be ready to put all their differecies aside for what's good for the business, Shawn told him that he would never lose the title to him (and he never did... see the "I lost my smile" angle for more details... Shawn really didn't want to lose to him).
DJolim 3 weeks ago
let me get this right. Hart, the champ, is not re signed by WWF (in reality) So in his last title mach he is told by Mcmahon and staff (in reality) that he is scripted to win the match, Therefore leaving WWF with the belt and dignity. But McMahon, behind hart's, micheal's, etc back, tells Ref to end the mach in a point where Hart is held in his own submission, even though hart and micheals believe they are supposed to end the match with Hart winning. ?????
pallknowing1 1 month ago
@pallknowing1 no. almost. michaels was in on it, but acted confused so bret wouldn't accuse him or suspect him, although hart figured it out pretty quickly
MikeDelcanho 1 month ago
@pallknowing1 No. Bret was told that a DQ ending would occur with Owen and Bulldog running interference. I think people should understand that all of this came about simply because Bret wouldn't "do the right thing" and the reason he wouldn't was because Shawn had said he wouldn't return the favour. In essence, when Bret refused to drop the belt to Shawn, he was willing to screw Vince, the WWF and possibly cost the remaining wrestlers their jobs just because he didn't like Shawn
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@pallknowing1 couldnt b more wrong lol
pdotology 1 month ago
@pallknowing1 almost right. Vince didn't want Bret to show up to the WCW (the rivals) with the WWF title, which is normal. The thing is that Bret agreed to forfeit the title the next day on Raw...
DJolim 3 weeks ago
that's bullshit. why did earl hebner tell them to ring the bell if he was apparently gonna make sure that brett didn't lose?
elrifle24 1 month ago
@elrifle24 - Earl Hebner assured Bret that he wouldn't count him out. He told him "You keep your shoulders up and I won't count you out".
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
Probably the most significant moment in Pro Wrestling history. The single moment changed wrestling history FOREVER.
jghor23 1 month ago
i dont get how he got screwed :S
Vercetti44133 1 month ago
@Vercetti44133 what? Vince ruined his career as a wrestler that's how he got screwed
coolkid521xDx3 1 month ago
@coolkid521xDx3 - Vince did not ruin Bret's career as a wrestler. But let me ask you a question, how did Vince ruin Bret's career as a wrestler?
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@IDIOTdella
It is VERY obvious.... Vince was trying to sabotage Bret's career.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF And despite what I've written you still blindly churn out "Vince tried to ruin Bret's career". Face facts, Bret screwed McMahon for what he could at a time when Bret knew just about anything could be asked because the WWF was in a weak position because of the WCW. Vince screwed Bret out of a title belt that in REALITY is meaningless. Bret was risking the WWF, the boys in the back their jobs, basically he was trying to screw them out of their livelihoods, and for what?
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
You have NO idea of what you are talking about and your revisionist history is frightening indeed.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - Wow! LOL! You've left me truly gobsmacked LOL! Well other than finding myself laughing my arse off of course.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - All that just because he despised Shawn Michaels. Btw, I'm not American, I'm Canadian Indian and English. In truth, you can bleat all you want about how thoroughly unfair it all was, but you'll never convince me that Bret was ever the innocent party, the honest, white hat good guy doig it all for everyone else. His book gave too much of himself away for me to ever believe that. Up to you if you want to remain as blinkered as you are. Not my problem
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
HAHAHA What did Bret Hart do to you?? Your hatred (which btw seeps through) for a man who I assume you've never interacted with borders on being quite unstable. The way you talk one would think that Bret personally screwed you in some way... And by the way, your worship of Vince is disgusting to say the least.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - I don't hate Bret, I just wish he'd be a bit more honest than he is about how he went about things back in those days. According to his book he respected very few of the wrestlers, there was no indication whatsoever of a father/son relationship between him and McMahon and Money always played a huge part in his decisions. I've recently posted what I thought of Vince McMahon. I don't see how that can be construed as worshipping him
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
You don't hate Bret?? You could have fooled me.... Wrestling is not a hobby, this is their work, their job, their profession.... GOD FORBID they make money.... Bret had four children to take care of.... this loyalty crap is exactly what it is... crap
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - As said before I have no problem in anyone making money, I just prefer them to be honest about it, which Bret isn't and hasn't ever been. Actually, he was on the Rivals DVD but you seemed to have perhaps misunderstood what he was actually saying. Well, Bret's been spouting his loyalty to the company, the boys in the back and so on for years and years and years. No wonder businesses are as they are. Once upon a time Loyalty was like gold and hugely appreciated.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
First off, the whole series of events leading to Montreal is a complicated series of events and for YOU to suggest that the issue is merely black and white is foolish at best.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - You didn't need to go to Communist China or Russia either. I guess America's Corporate way of life is bound to breed such a skanky attitude towards the workplace and such. Oh well.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
I love how people (including myself) still argue about this. It will NEVER die :)
TheBC313 1 month ago
@TheBC313 - Well, I spent some time having a 'discussion' with a very pleasant tuber but I know what you mean. Of the people I've spoken with most are blind/deaf staunch Bret fans who believe Bret to be almost the second son of God when it comes to wrestling and believe he didn't deserve to be treated the way he was because he was all good. However, Bret was never the Saint he painted and still paints himself to be and believe it or not but his book written by him supports that *shrug*
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@IDIOTdella Bret wasn't a Saint but that really was a lack of respect. We know that he was part responsible for what happened that night but I still believe that Vince could've find another solution then to screw a longtime employee... And I still think that it all comes to shawn being a jackass at the time... Hell the guy didn't want to lose to nobody! (not even with a brocken back... that says alot about the man)
DJolim 3 weeks ago
@IDIOTdella
Once again.. not sure where you are getting all this "Bret Hart is a saint nonsense"
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@TheBC313 - It's the only thing I try to clarify, (though my previous conversation on this vid went a little on from that), because when it all comes down to it, so what if Bret was screwed out of a title back in 1997. He went on to the WCW with 3 million dollars in his pocket, and a chance to milk the 'poor innocent victim card' which he still plays today - only Bret was never the "innocent" victim, he was just as bad as Shawn and McMahon
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@IDIOTdella I couldnt agree with you more. No matter how much he plays up the fact that he was hurt by it, there's a part of me that believes deep down he actually wanted it to happen, because he knew the sympathy that would follow. Someone who REALLY didnt want to be screwed just flat out wouldnt of let himself be put in that situation (the sharpshooter spot). Its just a theory of mine, I could be wrong :)
TheBC313 1 month ago
@TheBC313 - Indeed. A couple of things though. 1 Bret has always said that Earl had sworn on his kids lives that he wouldn't screw Bret, period, but Earl has always maintained that he said he wouldn't count Bret out - "You keep your shoulders up and I won't count you out" - which I think explains why Bret allowed the Sharpshooter to be applied in the first place, because it's a submission move and not a count out... tbc...
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@TheBC313 - 2 I honestly don't understand why Bret was so hurt that he'd carry such bitterness and hatred for so long because all he got screwed out of was a title that was worthless to him because he was moving on to the WCW with $3 million in his pocket. Also, because he screwed Vince out of a couple of hefty contracts (see previous convrsation) I honestly don't believe his claim that he had a father/son relationship with Vince - unless screwing a parent in such a way is a given tbc
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@IDIOTdella I also think the reason Bret was so hurt and bitter is because he felt like he was being forced out, he didnt want to go, and probably thought Shawn had something to do with him being forced out. That and the fact that Bret's a complete mark for himself.
TheBC313 1 month ago
@TheBC313 - I do understand but the problem I have it is that, IMO, it's an unjustified hurt and bitterness, simply because of what Bret was doing himself, how he went about gaining the contracts he did, using the hard times to his advantage even when other wrestlers were being let go at the time. I'm not absolving Vince for what he did, nor Shawn, and not even Earl, but I'm afraid I'm not in any way sympathetic towards Bret because as far as I'm concerned he did indeed screw himself.
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@IDIOTdella well let's say that it all comes to Shawn really being a dick at this time
DJolim 3 weeks ago
@TheBC313 - 3 IMO, I think when McMahon says "Bret screwed Bret" he's alluding to the 20 Year $10 mil contract Bret screwed out of Vince when Vince could ill afford it - and the reason I believe the WWF was losing serious money is because McMahon could not match the WCW $3 mil offer, which is why he spread it over the 10 years. When Bret says he never believed Vince was struggling because he paid Tyson several million, Tyson was at a time when WCW was losing the Monday night war
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@IDIOTdella Actually WCW were still winning the ratings during the whole Tyson angle. The Bret Screwed Bret was Vince saying "Bret wouldnt do business, so I did it for him, If he'd of done what I wanted, none of this would of happened" kinda thing. I do however find it hard to believe that Vince was having financial problems in 1997. The WWF were actually DRAWING in 1997, which they hadnt done since maybe 91-92.
TheBC313 1 month ago
@TheBC313 - You're right, I apologise, and yes, perhaps it was as you describe. I thought Wrestlemania 14 had been further into 1998 than it actually was. As silly as this sounds, but I'm not clued in what you mean by "Drawing" - do you mean crowds? Attendance? If so, it is true WWF was, but WCW were outdrawing them where I think it really mattered, which was the televised shows. House Shows and so forth are okay, good for promotional means but for drawing money and attendance, not so ... tbc...
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@IDIOTdella Yes by Drawing i mean they were actually getting big crowds compared to the small crowds of the 92-96 era. You could tell business was on the rise. House shows, along with the PPV's, were actually WWF's main source of income back then.
TheBC313 1 month ago
@TheBC313 - ...Which up until 1998 there were only 4-5 PPV events a year for the WWF, spattered with some In Your House venues which looked like they were held at the same House Show venues, so, IMO, not a big draw but good exposure. I think the IYH series' were a bit like the Main Events, but the MEs looked like they were held at the PPV venues, so the draw would have been bigger then - and for me, that also shows signs of struggle because of where there IYHs were held *shrug* tbc
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@TheBC313 - I could be way off base here but it's jsut how it all seemed to me that's all :-)
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@TheBC313 -... because, as I understand it, the venues were far smaller than the televised venues. Throughout 1997 and a little way into 1998 Nitro outdrew the WWF on every occasion apart from 3, so I would say that the WWF was losing money because of this and in a big way. I think it wasn't until about March 1998 that they started to pick up a bit and then when SCSA hit and became Champion, that's when it began to make money and 1999 until it was sold in 2001 they blew Nitro out of the water.
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
Comment removed
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
I listed the lies from Brett that I actually had ROOM4. There are many more and any one who does the research can find them and more. Me? I did not even have to or DO research, these are just lies that slapped me in the face RIGHT there in ONE night of brushing up/catching up on old youtube vids that covered TMS.Job. I watched the vids as a Hitman fan, hoping to learn more and sympathize for one of my most admired wrestlers all over again, instead I began to uncover snakeskins similar to Vince!
CubbieBear1980 1 month ago
@CubbieBear1980 - You are the very first Bret Hart fan I have ever encountered who has their eyes open and their ears tuned, who remembers one chat to another and sees the discrepancies, the hypocrisy and the lies. It is such a pleasure to meet you :-) I actually feel very sorry for Earl because in all of this, I think he was the only one who did what he did out of loyalty for the Company and the boys in the back. ...tbc...
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@CubbieBear1980 - Yes, it was not a pleasant thing he did and apparently Earl paid for it with his guilt - and Bret simply gloated over the fact that for a while Earl turned to drinking himself ragged to try and get past that. As for JR I'm pretty much convinced he didn't know because of his reactions at the end of the match, but I think Lawler knew because he kept mentioning the planned DQ ending all the way through the match... tbc...
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@CubbieBear1980 - Like yourself there are plenty of other unpleasant things about Bret that I discovered while reading the book and also watching various videos on youtube and so forth but can't comment about them all because of the character restriction on here. Suffice to say that both Shawn and Bret were shits back then, like for like and that's why the feud spilled over into their personal lives because they and Vince were very much alike when it came to money...
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@CubbieBear1980 - Lastly, as for the book being the best Wrestler/Wrestling book out there. I read a lot and yet this was the hardest book I've ever had to read, because it is from such an egocentric viewpoint and at times a delusional POV where the matches he describes that he participated in was, at times, complete garbage, that it took me the longest of times to get through - and I did not have a pleasant feeling of "that was such an enjoyable read" at the end of it.
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@IDIOTdella interesting. B/c some ppl say they could NOT put it down. But hey, maybe thats not necessrily in a good way. They may mean like the 'can't turn a way from school bus train wreck' sort of way. Egocentric huh? Wow, I would not have taken Bret for the type,..well certainly his TV wrestler persona but of course 90% of the guys are NOthing like their 'over blown personality' TV personas. So, are U saying U got the impression he's in love with & believes in his own hype/legend&myth type??
CubbieBear1980 1 month ago
@CubbieBear1980 - No beating around the bush, yes I left that book with a very very strong impression that Bret did (and I think still does) indeed believe in his own hype/legend status such as being the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be - and my impression stems from his overblown descriptions of some of the matches he participated in and also his entrances, how everyone is always in tears when all they are doing is paying him a compliment... tbc
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@CubbieBear1980 (cont'd)... The importance he places on himself in others lives, such as apparently the last words Kerry Von Erich said to Bret were the words in his suicide note - then goes on to say he's always believed that the Von Erich suicides were simply a way in which the brothers could outdo the other because they were so competitive in life, which I found particularly distasteful. Also, the night Joey Marella died Bret's last words were 'be careful driving'... tbc...
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@CubbieBear1980 (cont'd)... He also justifies his whoring thru the territories and in other countries as not wanting to be alone, that his lust was always stronger than his guilt and that his wife was always moaning at him, not actually acknowledging the fact she was at home trying to raise 4 kids on her own. There's also how he'd trash most of the wrestlers he had no respect for and making out as tho the others were solely dependent on him and his expertise, and so on and so on
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@CubbieBear1980 - But this is just my impression and I'm sure there are many who don't see it written that way at all. Some may see it as just a confirmation of how wonderful Bret is because he's written it all down on paper. I'd contest that view simply because the matches he describes and his entrances can be proven to be almost delusional and he lies and I know he lies in the book because I can prove them to be lies.*shrug*
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@IDIOTdella thank for the conversation and 'tube frienship which is rare among strangers. Two questions b/c obviously you are more knowledgable in this than I. What is this song and dance about "time honored tradition" and is there anything more to it than bull @face value or at BEST 'honor' among theives? 2nd what do they mean when they talk of Vince 'orchestrating' the whole thing, so that it was not a surprise to him, its as if it was lil more than an extended writtend drama to the ppv>>??<<
CubbieBear1980 1 month ago in playlist Favorite videos
@CubbieBear1980 - Though I do agree that the words used could have come from a daytime Soap Opera. Both sides made me gag at times because of how they expressed themselves and the tradition of passing the torch to the new guy. :-)
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@CubbieBear1980 Cheers for the conversation too. It's been thoroughly enjoyable :-) 1. "Time Honoured Tradition" is a kind of Soap Opera way of saying that it is expected that when a new star is given the chance to lead the company, that the holder of the Championship belt drops it to the new guy, kind of "passing the torch". 2. What they mean by Vince "Orchestrating" it is that he was the central figure, the one who organised it all, tho many believe it was HHH who suggested it
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@CubbieBear1980 - IMO, when it all comes down to it, Bret self-inflicted years of bitterness and hatred onto himself over a belt that in REALITY means absolutely nothing. It's not a confirmation of being the best before, or then or for the future, it is just a symbol of faith from Vince McMahon that he believed the holder of the belt would be the biggest moneymaker for him - it's why the screwjob was a business decision, because Bret wouldn't drop the belt to Shawn
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@CubbieBear1980 - ... and handing the belt to Shawn would have devalued Shawn's worth as a Champion. So I think screwing Bret out of the title fitted in with the Attitude Era and also Shawn's character persona and the only unexpected thing to happen was the creation of the McMahon character, tho' most say it isn't too far from the real Vince McMahon anyway. :-)
IDIOTdella 1 month ago
@IDIOTdella well Bret did this because Shawn had previously "lost his smile". Check it up if you don't know what I'm talking about.
DJolim 3 weeks ago
@DJolim - Yes, I know about the "Lost His smile" incident and yes, Shawn was a bit of a shit back then also. They both were also just about as immature as you could get, tit-for-tat in trying to outdo the other on personal insults and so on. However, the "Lost his smile" incident is vastly different to the circumstances surrounding the MSJ. For one thing it has never been determined whether Shawn forfeited the title because he didn't want to relinquish the title to Bret. tbc...
IDIOTdella 3 weeks ago
@DJolim (cont'd) ...That's always been supposition. Shawn was, apparently, injured but, according to Bret, it was believed to be a fake injury, despite the fact that Shawn did have surgery on it and was out for at least a couple of months. No-one else has mentioned their suspicions concerning the injury only Bret. Having said all that though, I do think it was as convenient and Shawn should have gone on with the match at WM13, or even lost the title beforehand in a TV taping tbc...
IDIOTdella 3 weeks ago
@IDIOTdella
That is a lie... I know for a fact that The Undertaker suspected that the injury was fake as well, as did many others in the locker room. Shawn was always hooked up on pills.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@DJolim - (cont'd) However, imo, the circumstances surrounding the MSJ were entirely down to Bret. The orchestration of the MSJ was not. Bret has "said" he had the greatest respect for McMahon and for the "boys in the back" and yet when a time came to "show" them that respect he didn't, and the reason he didn't was simply because of his personal feelings towards one person. All in all, imo, they were as bad as each other outside of the ring and as good as each other inside it tbc...
IDIOTdella 3 weeks ago
@IDIOTdella
This entire thing was Vince's fault. The minute he agreed to Bret's contract which stated that Bret would have creative control his last 30 days with the company ... allowing Bret to keep the belt up to Survivor Series.... ALL VINCE'S fault.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - *sigh* Bret has always maintained he was loyal to the WWF/McMahon/The boys in the back. His book says otherwise. Bret has always maintained that money never EVERRRRRR played a large part in his decisions. His book says otherwise, so does his comments on the Rivals DVD. Bret has always maintained he never purposefully hurt another wrestler, his book says otherwise, and so does an interview with Bad News Brown, a wrestler and one time friend of the Hart family
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
Once again, I've read Bret's book.. I have no idea what you are talking about. I have the Rivals DVD and again I don't know what you are talking about. Secondly, once again you demonize a worker for negotiating for more money. Seems silly to me.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - Okay, in his book, Bret used an up and coming court case against VM, threatened to leave for the WCW and also the fact that the WWF was losing big time against the WCW. Despite other wrestlers being let go at the time, which Bret acknowledges, but that's all he does, Bret holds out until the deal is honoured. Does that speak of loyalty to anyone or anything? Or does that speak of someone simply out to get what he could and damn the rest of it?
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
Up and coming court case???? Oh you mean the court case that correctly held Vince and the WWE accountable for the DEATH of Owen Hart?? You're a sick man. BTW Vince and Russo and the WWE KILLED Owen Hart. Number 2, Bret was FORCED to leave the company. When someone kicks you out and your back is against the wall you DO BUSINESS FOR YOURSELF!!!!!!!
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - Sheesh! For someone so blatantly pro Bret regardless, you sure know little of time frames. Owen died AFTER Bret had left, remember? Bret left in 1997 Owen died in 1999. Yes, I agree the WWE were responsible for Owen's death, in that they were negligent. As for guilty of murdering him, no. According to Bret's book McMahon advised Bret to seek out the WCW offer because he would not be able to honour their previous contract.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
First of all I'm not pro Bret I'm pro WRESTLER.. I'm pro worker's rights. Secondly I am VERY aware that Owen died in '99.. you're the one who brought up an "up coming court case" . Number three, I said the WWE Killed Owen Hart, I did not say Murder.... Vince not being able to honor the contract yet was able to pay Mike Tyson 5 million dollars 5 months later.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF It was all amicable until McMahon would not agree to the DQ ending and forfeiting the title the next night on RAW, something which would only have benefited Bret, not Shawn or the WWF. I imagine you're not familiar with the word LOYALTY then? Something Bret professes to this day to have had, and yet to do business for yourself is not loyalty, that's selfishness. 3 people doing business for themselves, and one ref who apparently did what he did for the boys in the back
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
I DO NOT believe in loyalty to a company.... sorry this is not communist china.... That's absolutely ridiculous... I believe in worker's rights... I also respect Bret Hart because he's pro union...
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
WRESTLERS HAVE A RIGHT TO DO BUSINESS FOR THEMSELVES!!!!! FUCK this being loyal to a company bullshit!! What is this?? Communism???
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - I've never said they shouldn't be able to do business for themselves, my argument is to say that Bret apparently doesn't recognise the meaning of doing business for yourself. According to Bret's book he seems to think that that's a showing of loyalty simply because he stayed at the WWF, but only AFTER he'd procured the deal he'd been holding out for. As said before it should be recognised as selfishness, not loyalty.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
..... and I disagree with you...
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - Bret had "Reasonable" control of his character (he says so on his Walking with Shadows dvd) which gave him the power to nix any storyline he felt would be detrimental to his character. He never did that. Reasonable control did NOT give him the power to pick and choose who he dropped the belt to or where and when, that is a business decision, which would have been McMahon's since he was the owner of the WWF.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
Well lets not kid ourselves.... we BOTH know why Bret put that clause in his contract. It was obviously put there to protect himself on the way out of the company. If that is not "reasonable" then I don't know what is.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - Bret has said that he held out on dropping the belt to Shawn as a show of respect for the boys in the back which is bullshit. Dropping the belt would have shown that respect and also gratitude towards those who'd put him over on his way to the top. Dropping the belt would have also shown respect and gratitude towards McMahon for giving him the platform in which to shine and also for showing he had faith in him (Bret) to lead the company. But no Bret couldn't do that
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
Dropping a title to someone who showed NO respect to the champion is NOT looking out for the boys. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - Here we go again, the showed no respect argument again. Respect is earned and it's up to other individuals if they give it or not, Expecting respect is arrogance and Bret reacting the way he did to Shawn's lack of respect is an indication of just how large an ego Bret had. So what if someone disrespects you. What makes you the better person by deciding to stoop to their level in response? No matter how loudly you shout, my opinion hasn't changed.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
Are you trying to tell me that Bret had not EARNED respect during his career?!?!?!?!?!?! You're crazy!!
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - Okay, my final words on this because you're beginning to piss me off now what with your deaf ears and your blindness to the facts, and one thing I hate doing is reiterating myself because someone is either too dumb or too stupid to understand what I'm saying.
No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it's up to OTHERS whether they give respect or not. EXPECTING respect is just arrogance. Okay, now I'm finished. Have a nice day and try not to blow a blood vessel
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
Ok, first of all fuck you.... second of all seek professional help for your seemingly sick obsession with Bret Hart.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - LOL!
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF By not dropping the belt Bret decided to risk the WWF he was supposedly have been loyal to, risk ruining a man he supposedly had regarded as a Father Figure and also the jobs of the boys in the back. Bret's decision had nothing to do with anything or anyone other than his own personal feelings toward Shawn Michaels. He had the perfect opportunity to show his loyalty and his respect but he chose not to.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
BULLSHIT!! You're full of shit!
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@DJolim - Imo, both deserve all the respect that can be given for their expertise and work rate inside the ring, but their attitude outside of the ring, well, both were the height of selfishness, adolescent, jackasses back then, and if Bret's book can be believed, possibly a whole other negative adjectives as well.
IDIOTdella 3 weeks ago
@DJolim - I think Bret's book was an eye-opener and not in a complimentary sense. It basically debunks many of Bret's holier-than-thou stances he's made before and since the MSJ, especially the money not playing a big part in things. It also shows that Bret was not as loyal as he claimed to be, not towards McMahon, the company or the majority of the boys in the back. Nor was he loyal towards his family or his wife. Also, given his 2 previous contract dealings, Bret really did screw Bret
IDIOTdella 3 weeks ago
@IDIOTdella I agree that Bret wasn't a saint in this MSJ incident but Bret left the wwf because Shawn (scumbag back then) was running the show and Vince was very supportive towards him. It's not a question of being loyal but he didn't like the product enough to stay and you can't blame him for that. But yet again, his attitude was really childish and he should've act another way and leave the company like the legend he is. Bret did screw Bret, with alot of help from Vince Mcmahon and HBK.
DJolim 2 weeks ago
@DJolim - Shawn running the show or the Klique running the show has pretty much been debunked by both Bret and Shawn who have said that the storylines and the promos were scripted and talked amongst themselves. You even get to hear about that in Bret's WWS Vid and on the Rivals DVD. You also get to read in BRET'S book how Shawn and the others went to Bret with the idea of the Klique and wanting him to lead it, but he turned them down because of the level of pills they were allegedly taking tbc..
IDIOTdella 2 weeks ago
@IDIOTdella
HAHAHA you are living in fantasy world.... Shawn's drug abuse problem was not something that was alleged. Shawn Michaels WAS A DRUG ADDICT!! Period!! Everyone knows this
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@DJolim - Imho, I think Bret didn't want to stay because the WWF was handing over the reigns to someone he personally detested and someone he, rather arrogantly, felt was not deserving of being in the top spot. Imo, regardless of what was going on behind the scenes, Shawn Michaels was putting arses on the seats and whether he was a heel or a face he was getting good reactions from the crowds - which further incensed Bret because he regarded Michaels' character as just a pimp/male whore.
IDIOTdella 2 weeks ago
@DJolim - Hmm, legend. Are either of them legends? Of Wrestling, perhaps, but for me a true wrestling LEGEND is someone who can be respected inside the ring as well as outside of it, and, for me, in semi-recent years only three fit that category which are Mark Calaway, Dwayne Johnson and Earl Hebner - with SCSA on the cusp but not quite there because of his roid rage incident with his wife.
IDIOTdella 2 weeks ago
@IDIOTdella You mean Earl Hebner who got fired for selling WWE merchandise on the side? lol how is he a legend
luminafire 1 week ago
@luminafire - ALLEGEDLY selling merchandise without permission. It was never proven and never went to court. Not only that, Earl had INVESTED in the T-Shirt shop but he didn't run it. They also fired Dave Hebner for the alleged same thing even though he had nothing whatsoever to do with the shop. So, you were saying?
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
@IDIOTdella lol okay bro. I'm sure there were more than murmurs about Hebner doing this for WWE to fire its senior-most and most experienced referee. 90% of everything in wrestling including all this crap about the Montreal Screwjob is "alleged" -- fact is, none of us marks have any idea what happened
luminafire 1 week ago
@luminafire - Stephanie McMahon used the shop to produce the shirts and badges for the referees, so she knew all about it, and then all of a sudden it's selling merchandise without WWF permission and Earl is being fired because of that? And Dave as well, who had nothing to do with the shop. You want me to repeat that for you so it registers? Firing Dave Hebner for the same alleged thing when he had nothing to do with the shop. Want me to say it again?
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
@IDIOTdella Where is the proof? Why did they get fired "all of a sudden"? I'm not saying it didn't go down like that but there's about as much proof that it did as there is the official story -- none. At least the official story sounds more complete than that alleged conspiracy but the only people who know what really happened are the WWE and Earl Hebner. We marks are all just taking guesses one way or another-- the business is very secretive. Again, neither of us have any proof.
luminafire 1 week ago
@luminafire - Go watch the Hebner Brothers Shoot interview. Okay? Logically you'd think they would shit all over Vince and the WWF, but they didn't, and they still didn't when they explained their firings. They actually allow the viewer to form their own opinion - and the interview can't have been that long after their firings because Earl was not working for TNA at the time - and he started there about 6 months after he was fired from the WWE.
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
@luminafire It happened suddenly because Earl was getting ready to go to Philly for the next Raw only he got fired the day before and Dave got fired a couple of days later. You also know it was sudden because Earl was in the RAW the week before. The official story stinks and if you read my previous post you'd know why. Also no one in their right mind would jeopardise their job over a $12 shirt especially when one of the owners where you worked knew about the shop in the first place.
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
@IDIOTdella I mean, I understand that that's what they say, but that's still not concrete proof anymore than the WWE saying they did something wrong. I'll look into it-- admittedly, I hadn't heard this story until you mentioned it in your reply, but it's still he-said she-said. If they were really wronged, wouldn't that be all the MORE reason for them talk shit on the WWE?
luminafire 1 week ago
@luminafire - Not if you know the true meaning of loyalty, and they did, and I know what loyalty is too, because no matter how much you want to rant, rave and rage about how shitty you've just been treated, it's hard to because you know that ultimately they did far more for you than the shitty ending they gave to your time there. The only thing they say is that Vince McMahon is not the same man they worked for before WWF went public and changed to the WWE.
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
@IDIOTdella I can believe that. Money changes everyone
luminafire 1 week ago
@luminafire - All in all, I'm sorry I lost my rag for a minute there, but some shit just pisses me off quicker than a firecracker. Sorry.
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
@IDIOTdella
Loyalty to a company???? Absurd!!! These men and women are suppose to be independent contractors. Why Americans are so obsessed with protecting the powerful is beyond me.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@luminafire - In all honesty, I hope you do look into it because Bret Hart spent 14 effing years whining, bitching and moaning about being cheated out of a title that was completely and utterly worthless to him, risked ruining a company he says he was loyal to and jeopardise wrestlers jobs their job and yet there are wrestlers, road agents and the like who've been cheated out of their livelihoods - something far worse than what happened to Bret.
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
@IDIOTdella I'll look into it. The only thing I can really say is that it was probably unwise and unprofessional to embarrass Bret on live PPV like that in his home country. I never understood why they didn't just tell him to lay down or just strip him of the title. Seems like there are just better ways it could have been done. Even if Bret was dead wrong and he just didn't want to give Shawn the title, why stoop to his level the way they did?
luminafire 1 week ago
@luminafire - McMahon wasn't thinking in terms of how to make the best of it for Bret Hart, he was thinking of what woudleb teh best bet for his next best moneymaker in company, which was Shawn.The DQ ending and the forfeiting of the tile the next day on RAW only benefited Bret because the WWF would ultimately have a Champion who'd just been gifted the title. A screwjob was more in keeping with how Shawn's character was perceived in Canada and it also insured that the title stayed at the WWF
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
@IDIOTdella
Here is some facts for you. Bret offered to drop the belt to Steve Austin, The Undertaker, Mick Foley, even Ken Shamrock... He even agreed to drop the belt to Shawn another night... This was about nothing more than trying to humiliate Bret Hart... simple as that.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@luminafire The screwjob was also in keeping with the Attitude Era, which had begun in 1996. So business wise there were far more pros for the screwjob and its success than there would have been if McMahon had gone with Bret's suggestion. All in all McMahon made a business decision Bret took it personally, pure speculation, maybe because he was trying to with screw Michaels' drawing power and then we have 14ys of bitching and whining about it all being unfair it and how Bret was the innocent
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
@luminafire - Believe it or not but Bret's book (the cartoon world one) is a very good source on what Bret's state of mind was during this period, and basically he's not the loyalist he claimed to be, not towards McMahon or the company or towards most of the boys in the back, neither was he as innocent as he claims and his claim that money never played a huge part in things is completely and utterly debunked in the book *shrug*
IDIOTdella 1 week ago
@IDIOTdella I grew up a huge Bret Hart fan, and also being a Shawn Michaels fan, and I always felt that Bret was in the wrong. Ironically Vince delivers the line that sums it all up: Bret didn't do the right thing for the business that made him. Regardless of personal vendetta, he was leaving the company, you drop the belt before you leave. Bret needed to realize that you lose to who they to you to. And I know Shawn refused to lose to others and I don't condone that either.
AmericanWolves13 2 days ago
@AmericanWolves13 - Exactly. I mean, I know I come over as simply anti-Bret and that's about it, but I'm not. Shawn was a shit back then too, he knows it and acknowledges it, his fans know it too. I just get extremely pissed off when there's such a hate on Shawn and yet Bret is revered as almost a heavenly body - when there is so much material out in the real world that says something completely different.
IDIOTdella 2 days ago
@IDIOTdella
I don't think that Shawn has truly and fully embraced the person he was back then. I give him a world of credit for turning his life around. That is commendable, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. BTW I LOVE Bret Hart, and nor I nor anyone I know thinks Bret is a "heavenly body"... that seems a bit extreme.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@AmericanWolves13 - If there was an even balance going on, with Bret's fans acknowledging the fact their hero wasn't as squeaky clean or as noble and honest as Bret wants them to believe, I'd have no problem at all. What respect I do have for either of them OUTSIDE the ring, it will always be for Shawn because he at least has the humility to admit he was a shit back then. Bret just continues to whine offering token apologies but laying the bulk of the problems at Shawn's door
IDIOTdella 2 days ago
@IDIOTdella
No one has ever implied that Bret was squeaky clean. That's too simplistic. However we do believe in worker's rights. We believe that a wrestler, a supposed independent contractor, has the right to protect him or herself especially when they have creative control their last 30 days with the company.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella Shawn basically admitted that most of it was his fault, for being such a douchebag back then.
Showman786 1 day ago
@AmericanWolves13
Number 1, Bret had creative control his last 30 days with the company... a clause that was written into his contract that Vince signed and agreed to.
Number 2, a wrestler has a right to protect him or herself and it is not selfish to do so. Bret did the RIGHT thing. Let me put it to you this way... Shawn put the office before the boys.... Bret put the boys before the office. Which side are you on?
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF I blame all three. I blame Vince, Shawn and Bret. But Shawn admits he was wrong. He admits he was a piece of shit. But I hold Bret most accountable. Yes a wrestler has a right to protect himself, but Bret was leaving. Refusing to put over the guy who YOUR BOSS tells you to put over is Wrong. It's wrong for anyone to do. And for Bret, someone who claims to do what's right for the business and being a traditionalist, he should have put his ego and done the right thing and drop the
AmericanWolves13 1 day ago
@AmericanWolves13 - Exactly.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@AmericanWolves13
Wrestling fans are such cowards... Everyone LOVED Steve Austin because he spit in the face of authority and challenged the establishment... but this was a STORYLINE.... But when in reality a Wrestler is ACTUALLY doing that no one has the guts to stand by the wrestler, the worker, the independent contractor... it's hypocrisy. I support the BOYS over the company, I support the BOYS over the office and always will. I believe in worker's rights.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF title on the way out. It's not like they were burying him on his way out. Hell, in the year before he left he beat Austin TWICE, Undertaker twice. Having him lose to Shawn in Canada was less than ideal but its not like they were jobbing him out to the Brooklyn Brawler, he was losing to Shawn Michaels someone pushed as the best. Montreal just proved that Bret is immensely egotistical and it led to his downfall. In wrestling you LOSE to who your told to LOSE to. And I love Bret, but
AmericanWolves13 1 day ago
@AmericanWolves13 He was in the wrong here as much as anyone.
AmericanWolves13 1 day ago
@AmericanWolves13 - Can't say I love any of the three. Not that hot for such huge egos, but I do respect Bret and Shawn for what they accomplished, for their in-ring abilities and creating characters you could love and hate - sometimes at the same time. As for McMahon when it comes to business, he's, in my opinion, the definition of a businessman, and not in a complimentary sense, but outside of that well there's been many who've remained ever so been loyal to him so who knows.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella Unfortunately in this business it's damn near impossible to find someone who doesn't have a huge ego. Montreal was just a situation that showed the worst of Shawn Michaels, Vince McMahon, Bret Hart and the Wrestling Business itself. And I'm glad that everyone has been able to bury the hatchet.
AmericanWolves13 1 day ago
@AmericanWolves13 - Indeed. In all honesty, though it's about blooming time. In truth I think it should have been buried along time ago.
To be honest, the only truly unattractive thing associated with a man for me is a whiner. It was something I didn't like about Bret's Hitman character nor of Jericho's and others, including SCSA when he hooked up with McMahon's character. Makes me grind my teeth to pulp at times - chuckle.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@AmericanWolves13
Creative Control in his contract his last 30 days with the company...... Montreal was about Vince's ego.... I support a wrestlers right to do business for HIMSELF or HERSELF.... Bret offered to drop the belt Steve Austin, The Undertaker, Mick Foley, even Ken Shamrock. He even agreed to drop the title to Shawn on another night. This had nothing to do with business, this was all about the systematic humiliation and dehumanization of another human being.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - Are you listening to me? Or have you just gone into a red-rage zone and just spouting the first thing that comes to mind? Have you seen Bret's Walking With Shadows? He states on there he had REASONABLE creative control over his CHARACTER. The MSJ was a business decision. That's it. That;s all it was, is and ever will be. Bret wa sthe one whom decided it was something more and you believe him. Good for you.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
First of all it's "WRESTLING with Shadows"...... Reasonable is relative to the person, second of all.... and as I said before... from the moment Bret turned heel, it was sabotage all the way.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF - My apologies, Wrestling with Shadows. Well, okay, so reasonable is relative to the person. Well, McMahon was informing Bret that his version of reasonable was different to Vince's and what Vince wanted was Bret to drop the belt to Shawn at Montreal. End of. Vince being the Boss, the head honcho, the man in charge, the OWNER of the WWF.
IDIOTdella 1 day ago
@IDIOTdella
AS I said before... we BOTH know why Bret put that clause in the contract... to protect himself on the way out. Vince has masterfully convinced people that wrestling is his business... it's not HIS business, it's the wrestler's business.. I don't protect the powerful... I protect the worker....
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF It doesn't matter who they ask you to lose to, or when or where. It's not like they wanted him to lose in a minute to The Patriot and then have him burn the canadian flag. And trust me, this isn't just a Bret Hart thing, I think it was selfish of Shawn Michaels to throw a fit and screw Vader out of the title. As for the point about cheering Austin but not cheering Bret for doing the same thing in real life: Well I cheer Undertaker for being a zombie mortician but if someone was
AmericanWolves13 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF a zombie mortician in real life I sure as hell wouldn't cheer him. What your doing is trying to turn Bret Hart into a martyr, who stood up because he wanted to prove a point for every wrestler so that they wouldn't be embarrassed, when he's said multiple times that he didn't wanna do it because it would hurt HIS character. Because HE thought he was a hero in Canada. Shawn's not innocent; Bret's hands are FAR from clean in this and people who act as if he's a saint need to wake up
AmericanWolves13 1 day ago
@AmericanWolves13
No one is trying to make Bret into a martyr, and no has ever claimed he was a saint.... Secondly, him standing up for HIMSELF was in fact standing up for the boys. When Rosa Parks refused to move and sit in the back of the bus she was standing up for HERSELF, but by standing up for herself she was standing up for all blacks in the country... not that i'm equating the two.. just an example.
BeethovenCDF 1 day ago
@BeethovenCDF Well then Bret should thank guys like Hogan and Nash for Creative Control because they had that long before this incident. This whole Montreal Incident I believe, besides the Benoit incident and the Owen Hart accident, is one of the lowpoints of Professional Wrestling, where you could see just how selfish and childish your childhood heroes could be.
AmericanWolves13 1 day ago
@AmericanWolves13
I don't believe Bret was being selfish... sorry