Is it possible to be an arminian Christian hedonist?

[TruthBalance]

wow, hes sincere, but wrong. interesting

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Where does it say those WHO HAVE EARS TO HEAR are those who want to hear. That statement would be senseless as you interpret it. He is calling for those who can hear,hence those who have ears.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky What about my refutation of your view of Romans 5?

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Notice you don't address the Scriptures a second time once your assumptions are refuted.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky So,Jesus calls a dude, dude ;how does that point to the assumption that if Jesus says "those who do my will are my dudes" that Judas by being an acquaintance , comrade is a friend that has a possibility of of rejecting Christ when it was foreordained in the OT?

[dougmoerhoffman]

When it comes to emphasizing Biblical doctrines, Calvinism gets closer, but the extremes of both Arminianism and Calvinism seem, at this point of my research, to be both unBiblical.

I really do want to believe in God's total sovereignty--and I do. But SOMEHOW this must be compatible with human responsibility--and the issue with that is that it's difficult or impossible to think of responsibility apart from causality--meaning that "we" could, logically (?), only be responsible for what "we" do.

[TheDav0]

Is it possible (like Piper) that your cranium bone gets so thick that you not only cannot  hear the word of God, you begin to believe your own bullshit?

[bigbadwolff1]

If we dont obey chances are we arent chosen

[patty7beth]

I respect Piper, but am weary of the foolish "Calvinist vs. Armenian" semantics. I'm sorry Piper doesn't think I can fully enjoy God's glory & that my Pentecostal aunt thinks I have no joy in my salvation because I don't speak in tongues. Wrong. I have no delusion that my "will" saves me. God's grace lets me to choose him; salvation was God's work, not mine. God choosing to save me presents no problem. But to say God chose to damn people long before creation slanders God as a capricious sadist.

[Freedomremoved]

Mans definition of God and enforcing them on others... it is fail, always has been!

[216roro]

arminian? is he saying Armenian? whats a hedonist im soooo confused

[dedred5]

I'm kind of bummed that because I'm not a Calvinist,John Piper believes I can not enjoy Gods Glory to the fullest.There is a lot of assuming being done on what a born again Christian can experience based on their view of election.Calvinism nor Arminianism has never fully clicked with me and the Spirit has not led me to fully adhere to either doctrine.How can you look at me as spiritually crippled when you know nothing of my relationship with God.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@dedred5 THat's what happens when people allow demons to influence their doctrine.

[SpaceAboveSky]

Respond to this video...  Calvinism is demonic.

[SpaceAboveSky]

According to calvinism, people can't believe unless God forces them to believe.

So, an Arminian (people can't believe unless God forces them remember?), some how dampens or weakens God's ability by their will? Sounds like this guy is teaching arminian philosophy to me! Sounds like he isn't even calvinist himself.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Are you sayimg, God forces people to believe, all the while their heart is still with sin?

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 No, that is what John Calvin and the I in TULIP teach.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky you are utterly misguided in your understanding of the "I"

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 What does it teach? Remember, no man seeks God, not one. Romans 3:10-12. Usually taken out of context, which is to show the Jews that they're guilty of law breaking as the gentiles. Also, those verses are actually a quoted pslam which says men 'eat their own flesh" but is every person a cannibal? People are quick to dismiss parables for doctrine, but open arms to emotion and poetic based psalms. I guess whatever supports their view goes.

But I'll openly consider what you can say

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea that I dismiss parables for doctrine,or how men"eat their own flesh"has anything to do with Irresistable Grace.Even though there is no other way of reading Rom3:10-12 can these verses be taken out of context?

Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled



[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky

•Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

•Romans 1:28-31 - And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were... foolish

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky

•Galatians 4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God,how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?

•Romans 7:18 - For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh.

•Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother concieve me

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 What are you trying to say? What are you saying those scriptures are saying? Psalm is poetic, but even if that was taken as a solid block in doctrine, it just shows people are sinful (which is true).

Same with Romans 7:18

Galatians 4:8-9 actually if you read what the whole book of Galatians is about, notice it ends with a "?". He's asking those christians if they have been taken out of the world, why are they wanting to be slaves once more. So I don't know what you're saying

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Now that we have established man is sinful (for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God)How much sin does it take to separate one from God? God is all Holy, completely separate from any sin. That is why we need reconciled. God made that provision for us through His Son.If you repent from your sinful lifestyle, and place your trust in Christs finished work. He paid our debt (for the wages of sin is death) so we can live

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 I never said anything opposite to that, I agree and it only takes one sin (as we see with Adam)

But what does that have to do, that we need to be forced into believing as the I in TULIP stands for? What does that have to do that God "wants" people in hell when the Bible makes it clear that He doesn't? When Jesus tells us to love our enemies when He doesn't even do that himself? That doesn't make sense.

[Haukman66]

@SpaceAboveSky The "I" in Irrisistable grace my friend, does not state, that one is "forced" to believe. I can tell you , that no one in heaven is complaining about being there. Irresistable grace, states, that Gods grace is to the effect, that noone can resist. In other words, God changes the rebel sinners heart, and the sinner, "willingly" runs to Christ! John 6:37. And Jesus did love his enemies. He gave His life for them.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Im limited for time here, but I will address one question at a time to the best of my ability. You presuppose one has to be "forced" into believing. The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation, upon hearing the Gospel God gives the elect a new nature thereby allowing the elect to "see the Light". They can then see themselves in light of a Holy God, their sinfulness, and need of reconciliation. This allows the sinner to "will" that which is good, which he wasnt able to do before.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Ephesians 2:5 “Even when we were dead in our trespasses, [He] made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved.”

Acts 16, "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul"

Acts 13:48, "...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 Who isn't ordained to believe though? Weren't all men created to serve God?

The law sentences us to death. So many times calvinists whenever the law (which brings death) is brought up, they attach it to human spirit and make some odd connection. Or when Jews are told gentiles are accepted as well, they take it as only a specific types of gentiles are saved or persons within the gentiles, which is the same flawed logic the jews held. That they were picked to be saved.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Not all are ordained to believe or all would believe.

Q>What does the law bring death to? A> To the spirit. So why cant that connection be made, and how is it odd?

What passage are you talking about with the Jews being told the gentiles are accepted.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 There's plenty of passages through out the Bible that speak of, how the Jews rejected the message that it was brought to the gentiles. I thought mercy didn't depend on he who runneth or he who willith? Read Romans 11 it makes it pretty clear. Romans 10 does as well I believe.

Judas believed, yet he isn't saved. How do you figure that one? Being chosen doesn't mean much if we don't obey. Obeying doesn't matter if we aren't chosen. It isn't this or that, it's both.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Sorry I didnt make my question clear, "What particular passage are you talking about that the Calvinists use the same flawed logic as the Jews do when being told the gentiles are accepted."

I do understand that the Jews by and large rejected the Message.

Judas did not believe, in the Saving sense.

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky prophesied hundreds of yrs BC. Psalm 41:9Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.Zech11:12–13Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages;but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”athe lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the zthirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord, to the potter

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky

John15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain1Pet1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedienceEph 2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in themdience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 Jesus also said "Didn't I chose all of you, yet one of you is a devil?"

Being chosen only matters when it's mixed with Faith.

Of course if it's predestined its going to be that way. God never changes, so in the past, present, future, God's ultimate judgement will be what they are regardless. Predestined only matters to us in this life, that is the order of time. With God, there isn't necessarily an order. We don't understand eternity. We shouldn't say God wants people in hell,

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Do some people go to hell?

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 If I says yes, what do you suppose?

If I say no, you'd call me an unbeliever.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky If you say no, you dont believe what the Bible clearly teaches.

If you say yes, you are saying that something can happen outside of Gods will, therefore He is not omnipotent.

If you commit to neither you seem insincere,looking not for Truth but fighting against it. You are probably an open theist, that doesnt believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.

Just a guess.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 The english language version of the Bible are not perfect. The original texts don't even exist anymore. So it depends on what you consider "perfect". I believe scripture is perfected when we read it filled with the Holy Spirit. THat way it's interpreted accurately. Not of man's mind, but of the Spirit. God doesn't doom anybody to hell. Don't need to be a scholar to know that. Would you worship someone who picked babies at a hospital to be put in a oven before they did anything?

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 :For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:50

"The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever" 1 John 2:17

So, what do you figure? If everybody does God's will, that leads to universalism, which isn't what the Bible teaches right?

So you enforce limited atonement and use "died for HIs friends" for evidence, all the while Jesus called Judas friend. John 15:14 shows any1 can be friend

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Could you tell me the meaning of the word penned by John that is interpreted as "friend"?

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 I'm not going to argue semantics.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Please go look it up, you dont even have to admit to me what you learn. I will tell you what semantics is not, finding out the true meaning of a word within its context , in order to further your knowledge of God. You cannot call something semantics when the only reason you do is so that you dont have to admit your error. I have addressed everyone of your objections reasonably and thoroughly, and you havent acknowledged one of them. Kinda shows where your motives are, huh.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 Motives? What do I have to gain by speaking about this on youtube? Instead of focusing on me, focus on what you claim God is. I'm glad you can read my mind, or atleast think you can. If your points were solid I would of admitted to so. Honestly, the only thing I have difficulty understanding is acts 13:48. Other than that, what I sent to you came from Jesus's mouth. There's more verses supporting choosing God than there is God ordaining people to hell and they can't escape it.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky First of all you started speaking about this on you tube. You brought up Jesus talking about "friends" address the issue of what he meant by examining the meaning of the words He used in context. Your calling proper exigesis semantics either proves your ignorance or motives, answer me on what "friend" means and I then can rule out motive. I have taken the time to address your misconeptions, you have yet to respond to one. How am I to think any different?

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky What about Acts 13:48 do you not understand?

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 I'm not going to let one verse hand picked from the midst of a whole passage to change my whole outlook on the entire Bible. Jesus died for every being on the world. There's no arguing that. It's whether or not it's mixed with Faith that it matters. Yes Faith is a gift, but all men have capacity to believe. Good triumphs evil. I dunno why calvinists have to make evil so powerful that people can't over come it.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky I just asked you to tell me what "friend" meant in the original lang. & context of the verses YOU brought up.Where in Scripture does it say all men have the ability to believe? Evil separates man from an ALL Holy God. Evil has to be propitiated for an all just God. Evil cannot simply be ignored, that would not be just by Gods standards.Just stating something is true doesnt prove anything, show some Bible to back it.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Romans 11:32 - For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all

Mark 7:21-23 - "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

•Proverbs 28:26 - Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky •John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."

2 Peter 2:19They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.

Ephesians 2:3we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Proverbs 21:10 - The soul of the wicked desires evil

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky •Jeremiah 13:23Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.

1 Samuel 24:13"As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes wickedness.'"

Matthew 7:18"A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit."

Romans 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God

Colossians 1:21 And you,who once were alienated and hostile in mind,doing evil deeds

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Now lets examine the verses you think that all men have the capacity to believe.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 Every verse that commands man to do so.God doesn't command the sun to send ice,

He doesn't command birds to swim.

He commands what they're capable of doing.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky One verse ends calvinism. Or, atleast major portions of it. And that verse, is this. I call it, my 2nd Ace in the hole.

"9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-10.

Okay, first it says they "refused to love the truth and SO BE SAVED" meaning it was capable of them to be saved.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky Second, it says "Because they refused the truth" meaning, that's the reason why they're perishing.

So, that's the obvious or most common point someone will bring to use against the idea of limited atonement, but I'm going to take it another step further in a moment. No, not I, but what God's Word reveals itself.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky Now, what is the "truth" and so be saved? The truth is Jesus John 14:6. The Truth that He died for our sins right? Now, you're telling me what is true, is that Jesus's death was limited in atonement. Okay. So if he never died for those who aren't elect, and that's true, how does this passage make sense? If they believe that they aren't the elect, they'd be saved? That doesn't make sense because only the elect get saved right? Or is it believing that they are elect? Which is choice

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky So you're forced to admit that Jesus did die for everybody. It's whether or not it's mixed with faith. If it isn't, they perish. If it is, it's salvation. Now, this is where you might say "well Faith is sent by God" and I'd say yes. But that doesn't mean we aren't given the ability to have faith, or that even our man generated faith isn't enough for God to send more. If God didn't give man capability to have faith this passage wouldn't make sense.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky And even more so, this would be a perfect time to say "The reason why they are perishing is because God chose to damn them to hell without an escape out of it from eternity past". No, it says because they refused to love the truth. Which, you'd say will every man refuses the truth God has to override that. In aspects yes. We can see in our Christian walk we do sin. If we say we're without Sin we call God a liar 1 John 1:8-10. Christians can do wrong, heathens can do right.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky I'm not saying they don't need a savior. Job was blameless, but he wasn't perfect.

But also, my first ace in the hole would be this-

So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation[c] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[d] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. 1 Corinthians 10:12-13

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky Not only does this show that God always provides a way out, but that if there wasn't a way out responsibility wouldn't be held against you. We're charged because God provided a way out and we CHOSE to avoid it. So did God's plan for our lives fail? I think we're judged based on the fact that we didn't measure up to what God wanted us to do. What he pre determined us to do. EX.- lets say there's a book of every action God wanted us to make, and then a book of what we actually did

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky He permitted our disobedience not only because he is patient with us and loving, wanting all to be saved 2 Peter 3:9. But also because He gets glory out of placing judgement.

He also gets glory if we Obey Him and follow the plan of which He had intended us to follow. If one person won't Obey, He'll find another. Look at Onan as an example, all of those men. God still succeeds even when we fall. to claim every time I pick my nose God destined basically justifies any action I make.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky that isn't true. Although Jesus and God are the one's who justify and can justify anything. Even if it meant all to be saved, it is God who justifies. Even if none, God is right in doing so. However, He made a promise and He can't lie so those who believe in the promise (the seed, which is Christ) will be saved. THis makes sense in election. Ephesians 1 says In Christ, through Christ, By Christ, of Christ, how do we get in? By grace through faith of course.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky So the fact that Jesus is predestined, and if we're in Him, we become predestined. Romans 10 it's with the heart that we believe and with our mouth that we confess. Adoption into sonship. We all once walked according to the ways of the world, that means we WERE NOT saved at some point. But Jesus is eternal, and once we're IN HIM, we're of HIM. Romans 11 being grafted in. John 15 same. John 1 1-2 shows Jesus's eternal nature, If we're one with HIm and He the Father we're elected

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky •1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 Are you really going to disregard everything I wrote because you feel like your interpretation of that verse means what you want it to mean? Really?

You made it clear no matter how I respond, you won't shift your lens from your eyes no matter what. I know God can, but I don't know if He will.

God bless.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 So tell me what your interpretation of Hebrews 6:3-7 then?

If they're spiritually discerned, how did these people who "never had it" and "unregenerate" do all of those things? Or, do you suppose people can lose their salvation?

WHich way is it? YOu see, calvinism forces HUGE generalizations that just can't be true. Judas, Job, Solomon, Jesus, all show this is not the case. You can't have it one way here, and another there. See Scripture as truth. Please, open your eyes. Take care

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky That can be explained very easily. I will be more than happy to show you what that passage means. But, please show me your sincere by telling me what the word "friend" means in the lang penned by John, when you brought up Jesus calling Judas "friend". Believe me this isnt "semantics".

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 Matthew 26:50 uses Friend as Hetairos, and John 15:13 uses it as Philos.

The Definitions change a bit here and there depending on the sources I've looked into. However the fact that it's not the exact word is enough for you. However, I'm sure you weren't convinced in Romans 5 where "world" is the same greek word for those condemn, and those whom Christ died for. You'd limit that to mean "people of the world" as in all kinds of people.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@SpaceAboveSky Also, Romans 5 clearly says while we were enemies for God, Christ died for us. How can we be enemies and friends of Christ?

Also, if the enemies mean "non elect" that means Jesus died for the non elect? That's backwards. So the usage of "friends" according to your doctrine, makes no sense. Because "all have fallen short" right? Thus we're all enemies. Thus Jesus died for the World as Romans 5 clearly says.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Romans 5 simply states that while WE (Pauls writings and the whole of Scripture is written for the benifit of Gods children {elect = we}) were yet enemies, YET indicates that the WE before conversion were children of wrath, because logically, being born into sin there was a point in time we become born of the Spirit. You either assume out of ignorance elect means a person is saved before they are converted INCONCIEVABLE, or are purposely misrepresenting the Biblical position.

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 Doesn't change the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ died for the ungodly.

Are the elect only the ungodly? No. Makes no sense right?

I don't know why anybody would believe calvinism, on any level. It's a far miss from the scripture, and completely misses the nature of God and everything Jesus taught. except when you pull John 6:39, 44, and 65. Yet ignoring verses 45, and 64 Lol.

Either accept it all, or reject it all. Half truths are only effective in deception.

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Im glad we have established the fact that you were wrong about Jesus use of friend for Judas , thanks. Now that you bring up John 6:45, Notice ,Jesus says ""Every man that has HEARD and LEARNED"What is Jesus implying when He says "he who has ears let him hear"? Is that maybe the those who have heard? Or is there a possibility that some dont have ears? Before going down a rabbit trail again please address Is 6:10,Jer 5:21,Ezek12:2,Matt 13:15,Acts 28:27

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 and I'm not wrong, it's just a different word for friend, dude. The definitions are almost parallel.

I didn't copy and paste anything, it's what I wrote. Stop using lenses to read scripture. Those who have an ear to hear, are those who are willing to hear the message. That's all. Verse 45 says "and all were taught of God". Don't forget multitudes were there when he taught them, and what did they do? They walked away right after dude. Scriptures don't end whenever you feel like it

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 Like any calvinist, you have to pervet scripture, cut out segments, and stop and start wherever you please. It's not your fault, it's the doctrine's fault. Heavily influenced by the gnostics, who were rebuked for trying to PERVERT the Gospel in the early church. Augustine was a heretic, infant baptism counter original sin is a joke. maybe in another 1500 years calvinst will let go of another heresy. Jesus will be back before then. All I can say is start over, forget all that u know

[bigbadwolff1]

@SpaceAboveSky Notice something, whenever your statements are sucessfuuly refuted, you refuse to adress them again, you make charges that you are guilty of, and copy and paste to cloud the issue. If we are going to sharpen our swords on the Word of God, the first rule( which should go without saying) is to have some integrity, be honest, and not to use rhetoric to make your point. Scripture properly interpreted is all that is needed, the Spirit will vindicate Himself by His Word

[SpaceAboveSky]

@bigbadwolff1 Nothing I was was refuted, you just choose to believe it as so, and blame God for it.

If you believe everything done is God's will, then you just pervert his will. "Whatever I do is God's will" Maybe you think that makes Him all powerful, but in fact youre saying man's actions force God to will it. That's stupid.

Obviously you're blind. You think you have ears, but you certainly don't have Eyes. Posting single verses, you can "prove" any viewpoint in the Bible.

[FrankMozzarella]

@dedred5 I've been free to draw from both Calvinists and Arminians in my 17 years walking with Jesus. it is only necessary to identify with one or the other in their mind. Stay free. Honoring both as your bro in the faith.

Arminian bros will tend to think that I am Calvinist; while Calvinists will think that I am Arminian. They absolutely think you have to be one or the other. They are living out in modern day terms "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos" and losing sight that we are of Christ.

[LettheNationsBeGlad]

@dedred5 By putting yourself in that category of a non-Calvinist, you are inherently making assertions about your relationship with God (by consciously not putting yourself in the Calvinist category you are saying you disagree with certain aspects) that is why JP can make certain logical inferences as to your position.

[dedred5]

@LettheNationsBeGlad Actually no assertions are made that justifies Pipers judgements. I know he believes what he says is true, though he is generalizing and making assumptions. It's only his 'opinion' of what I will experience, based on my position regarding doctrines of election. Sorry to say, but it's not his place to put me anywhere on the spectrum in regards to how well I can commune with God. I don't hold it against him, I still respect him greatly as a teacher. We simply don't agree.

[tercelkisor]

@dedred5 the issue isnt election. its glory....

[dedred5]

.... that is revealed, and the ability of a believer to fully acknowledge it based upon his views on election. The issue is both. 

[wiltjer]

It's a difficult matter, but let me try to give me my humble idea.

Yes. God is sovereign and ultimately rules the universe. Human is created in Gods image and has 'some sovereignty', but can only be overruled by God. So man has a free will, but this does not mean that God can not overrule that.

I also fully believe that we are dead in our trespasses and sin and can not be saved apart form the gift of God. I believe the Power to be saved is in the Word of God, not in our free will. (Rom 1.16)

[tempemonkey2323]

Is it possible for grown men to not base their lives on pathetic fairy tales like Christianity?

[ittokaos]

Molinism is the closest to actually making sense both logically and scripturally.

[amaranthisme]

o man, "human kind can do what it wants, the universe will love us just the same"

[mjkII]

It is foolishness for any of us to approach this topic as though we have an infinite understanding of God's character.

JP uses the term "grace plus" to demonize and inaccurately describe biblical "free will" theology.

[mjkII]

The Bible clearly teaches that we are judged according to our response to God's offer of atonement. To believe that God created mankind with the ability to accept this offer does not diminish God's glory as JP insinuates. From the very beginning God's Word teaches that we are given a choice to honor God...and to believe that does not make us "lamed". Obviously JP thinks that he has a better understanding of God's glory because he emphasizes a few passages and ignores others.

[CBALLEN]

Arminianist or Calvinists are wrong,both can not be right.Either man can chose to save himself or lose himself to a beggar of souls or Jesus is a mighty Savior that succeeds in all He does.

[Brightstar27]

@CBALLEN

Why are you mischaractarizing Arminian theology?

[CBALLEN]

@Brightstar27 I'm not at all.Arminians believe salvation is the accomplishment of a man because if God gave everyone the same, equal grace,then some men are better in some way,thus their good works caused them to be able to choose God in their dead inability, when others didn't do it,see what I mean?Calvinists believe the only thing that separates men in heaven from men in Hell,is GOD'S SOVEREIGN CHOICE TO GIVE HIS GRACE TO THEM.EPH.1

[Brightstar27]

@CBALLEN

You indeed are! I recommend to you "Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities" by Roger E. Olson, which dispells I think ten myths about Arminianism (two of which I think I have seen implied in your comment) and another good comparitve study is Robert Picirilli's "Grace, Faith, Free Will" which is more of an exegetical argument for Arminianism (instead of the former, which is more of a historical study).

[CBALLEN]

@Brightstar27 But we have no free will,that's what I'm talking about.Please show me where the Bible says that man has free will?Or maybe show me one place where God's plans are dictated by man?Do you believe then,if you don't do what you're suppose to do,then God can't do what He wants?Do you believe that Jesus' death really saved no one or do you just believe that He makes people savable and that's all.Do you realize that God chose His own before time?

[Brightstar27]

@CBALLEN

If the human being has no free will then it is logically impossible for him to be held accountable for his actions, which he did not choose to do. Nevertheless, here are some libertarian free will verses for you:

Ex. 35:29; 36:3, Lev. 7:16; 22:18, 21, 23; 23:28; Num. 15:3; 29:39; Deu. 12:6, 17; 16:10; ch.30; 2 Chron. 31:14; 35:8; Ezra 1:4, 6; 3:5, 7:16; 8:28; Psa. 119:108; Eze. 46:12; 33:11; Amos 4:5; Isa 1:19-20; Lk. 7:30; John 7:17; 1 Cor. 7:37; 10:13; Rev 22:17.

There's much more

[CBALLEN]

@Brightstar27 These verses are very ambiguous for your side,you must remember that only those who belong to Christ will come when called,all others do not have ears to hear.Sheep were sheep before the Earth was created,goats have always been goats.

[mowriter]

@CBALLEN : wow; I guess the third option, "none of us has God or his plan all figured out," is off the table. Too bad, really; I'm content to accept the mystery of salvation.

[CBALLEN]

@mowriter I don't presume to have the plan of salvation all figured out,all I know is Jesus chose me,I didn't choose Him,I was ordained to eternal life that's why I believe.

[CBALLEN]

John 6:44 No one can come to me(no one has the ability to come to Jesus on their own) unless the Father who sent me draws him(Without God "dragging" us to Jesus no one can or will come) and I will raise him up at the last day (every last person the Fathers draws to Jesus are then kept and saved by Jesus and raised in their incorruptible bodies). The opposite is, all that the Father does not draw to Jesus won't be saved.God has elected people before time to save,these are the ones drawn by Him.

[mowriter]

@CBALLEN : I differ with none of what you've said...beyond the caveat that God draws all of us to him, in the sense of that "God Shaped Hole" CS Lewis described. We are created and intended for communion with God, and the fall took away that communion, but not the DESIRE inside all of us for that reconciliation. Don't know where that puts me on the spectrum...and don't care.

[CBALLEN]

@mowriter I know from scripture that everyone knows God is real ,but some will suppress this knowledge.and I like C.S.Lewis' writings,but not all men were chosen for salvation,I can prove this from both a Calvinist and Arminian standpoint.We all hate God from birth,this is man's nature,no one seeks Him,so if God doesn't change our nature,by making us born again first Himself,no one would ever be saved

[mowriter]

@CBALLEN : well, then we differ. I think all were chosen in the corporate sense that all humanity was designed for God, but we agree some repress that. I think we chose not to accept, not God choosing to send some to hell; we are at fault if we choose to reject God's promptings.

That is NOT to say we chose on our own; Christ compelled us, God compelled us, I do not mean to say otherwise.

Your word "PROOF" comes off sounding arrogant and prideful. Got a synonym?

[CBALLEN]

@mowriter Only those appointed to eternal life will believe,just as in Act 13:48

[TCMAO0]

@CBALLEN Arminians and Calvinists worship different gods.

[CBALLEN]

@TCMAO0 I'm afraid your right,they certainly are atheists in regards to the God of the Bible.the hatred toward Him is just soul wrenching.

[bossmanham]

Why's it gotta be irresistibly, Johnny Boy?

[IamUberStein]

What is Christian Hedonism? Dr. Piper assumed people watching this knows what Hedonism means in terms of Christianity.

[icuucmedmt]

he explained in the first 1:18

[IamUberStein]

I finally looked up what hedonism is- Hedonism is a school of philosophy which argues that pleasure has an ultimate importance and is the most important pursuit of humanity"

I want to be a christian hedonist! Sign me up!

[therealdrag0]

Chuckles. I'd recommend Pipers book Desiring God, you can get the PDF free off his website if you don't want to buy it.

[IamUberStein]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

I now know what John Piper means by Christian Hedonism, although I didn't know it when I wrote the above comment. Thanks again

[calvinismisacult]

Grace "plus" Freewill ??

you can't have Grace without freewill period! If there is no freewill then we are determined to do evil and there is no grace only God hating most of humanity for following his decrees he made up himself!

Glorious unconditional Damnation is depraved no matter how you look at it !! and no matter how much you smile while you say it !!!

Calvinism is a cult.

[SalvationEternity777]

Are you here to convince others or insult?

[IamUberStein]

I don't think Calvinism is a cult, but I will admit that the idea that there are some "un-elected" who, not only will never respond to the Gospel of Christ, but was never meant to repsond ever since eternity past.

And the final blow is that NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW WHO IS ELECTED OR NOT UNTIL WE EACH DIE! That idea gives me a horrible sensation of helplessness.

[sicstyl]

The problem is that there is so much focus on looking around for evidences and proofs; people refuse to take responsibility for themselves. It's always "what can I get away with", who's doing what, looking for examples of failure and salvation in light of it Biblically. WE ALL KNOW THE SCORE. We spend so much time worrying about acceptable amounts of sin that too few of us are simply FOCUSED ON CHRIST AND NOT SINNING. Jesus said few would be saved.. Maybe I just described who would be.

[IamUberStein]

Yes, we are to walk in the desires of the Holy Spirit. In doing that, we are conformed into the image of Christ.

And through prayer, we can confess and repent of our sins. That's one of the things Christ made possible through the atonement. Thanks for commenting

[S7VIIN]

"Grace plus their will saves them"

There is something hidden within that statement that doesn't fly so straight. In any case, I'm glad Dr. Piper stated that the Arminian thinks grace is necessary to overcome depravity and didn't use a straw man that the Arminian can initiate his own salvation.